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Thread: Oddball stringing

  1. #1
    Gadfly Dr H's Avatar
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    Default Oddball stringing

    While cleaning out the instrument closet I unearthed the old Kay mandolin that I bought off a street hippie for $15 about 20 years ago. Suddenly having a "spare" mando, which had been out of sight and out of mind for several years, I decided to try some experiments with octave stringing.

    Putting higher octaves on the two lower strings seems pretty natural, kind of like some OM stringings, only an octave higher. But I decided to try octaves on all four strings -- higher octaves on the two low strings and lower octaves on the two high strings, thus: G4-G3 D4-D5 A3-A4 E4-E5 (what the heck, the instrument is plywood...) I dubbed it the "H-tuning". This gives a lot of seconds on the open strings, and I was curious whether everything would sound like a cluster chord.

    To my surprise, I found the sound not nearly as "avant garde" as I had expected, but quite folky. Simple major/minor chords gave a sound almost like a mandolin being doubled by mandola or OM. More complex chords like 7ths, diminished, 9ths etc., were gnarlier, but still much more conventionally "harmonious" than I had expected. The effect is interesting enough that I may just do some recording with this tuning, in combination with a mando in standard tuning, and see what results.

    I'm curious as to whether anyone else has tried this kind of stringing, or other oddball stringing on a regular mandolin?
    Dr H
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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oddball stringing

    I haven't tried that, but I have played with octaves on the two lower strings. I learned it from a bowlback player I met who plays a lot of ragtime. It really sounds good.
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    Middle-Aged Old-Timer Tobin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oddball stringing

    I don't know if you'd consider this an "oddball" tuning, since it's been done so many times by so many people, but I keep a spare mandolin tuned in "Get Up John" tuning:

    F#/A - D/D - A/A - A/D

    I've also seen it referred to as "Open D" tuning, since it plays a D major chord with no fretting. Because of the split-string tuning on the 1st and 4th courses, it has very limited use. But man, it sure sounds interesting for that particular tune! And it's fun to noodle around with. You can whip it like a mule and strum it for all it's worth, without any particular concern for hitting only certain strings. The only downside is that the strings which are tuned down are pretty rubbery feeling under the fingers.

    It's fun for a few minutes, but gets old pretty quick.

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    Innocent Bystander JeffD's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oddball stringing

    OK if we are including non standard tunings, I keep a mandolin in cross tunings. Right now its in cross A, (AEAE), but I also mess with calico tuning, (AEAC#).

    But that's with standard strings in standard places, and keeping the unisons. I haven't played much with breaking the unisons, except as above to try Get Up John.
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  5. #5

    Default Re: Oddball stringing

    Sort of like a 12 string guitar.

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    Default Re: Oddball stringing

    Did you say oddball tuning? One of the most original mandolin CD's I have listened to is Radim Zenkl's Galactic Mandolin: http://www.zenkl.com/galactic.htm

    First piece in regular tuning. Each subsequent piece he tunes one of the pairs of strings down a half step. Check it out sometime (no pun intended).
    Bobby Bill

  7. #7

    Default Re: Oddball stringing

    I think he was asking about oddball stringing not oddball tuning.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Oddball stringing

    Cool. I've no particular experience but am interested. And I wonder--whether you might eventually experiment with some of this with your larger bodies, perhaps a Hora dola maybe. Your bevvy of "Latin" instruments--like the ronroco, intrigue me too (I've been looking to get one). I'm interested to hear not only about what you build but also how you might eventually deploy them. Thanks!

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    Gadfly Dr H's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oddball stringing

    Quote Originally Posted by Tobin View Post
    I don't know if you'd consider this an "oddball" tuning, since it's been done so many times by so many people, but I keep a spare mandolin tuned in "Get Up John" tuning:

    F#/A - D/D - A/A - A/D

    I've also seen it referred to as "Open D" tuning, since it plays a D major chord with no fretting. Because of the split-string tuning on the 1st and 4th courses, it has very limited use. But man, it sure sounds interesting for that particular tune! And it's fun to noodle around with. You can whip it like a mule and strum it for all it's worth, without any particular concern for hitting only certain strings. The only downside is that the strings which are tuned down are pretty rubbery feeling under the fingers.

    It's fun for a few minutes, but gets old pretty quick.
    Ooh, I like that with different notes on the pairs. I've done something similar with 12 string guitar on occasion, tuning the courses in fifths or fourths or occasionally 3rds. I agree that use is limited -- it's sort of confined in the way a lap-steel in open tuning is confined -- but for what it does it's interesting.

    With the weird ocatve tuning I used, I actually restrung with appropriate gauges for the notes I wanted, and so avoided that "rubbery" feel.
    Dr H
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    Gadfly Dr H's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oddball stringing

    Quote Originally Posted by JeffD View Post
    I haven't tried that, but I have played with octaves on the two lower strings. I learned it from a bowlback player I met who plays a lot of ragtime. It really sounds good.
    Is there actually a tradition of octaves on the lower two courses? It seems like such a natural extention of the instrument.

    I'm a big fan of ragtime -- play a lot of it on guitar and piano -- but I haven't found a whole lot written exclusively for mandolin. I did write a rag for mandola last fall, but only recently have I been finding enough time to actually practice it...
    Dr H
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    Default Re: Oddball stringing

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Bunting View Post
    Sort of like a 12 string guitar.
    Yeah, if you put a lower-octave B and E on the top courses.

    Which, now that I think of it, I'm going to have to try.

    Of course that means I'll have to get a spare 12 string ...
    Dr H
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    Registered User Mandobart's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oddball stringing

    I've done the exact same thing on my old mandolin, but didn't really care for the sound. I like the purity of unison tuning for some reason on a mandolin. However, I have octave pairs on the C, G and D of my mandocello, on the G, D and A of my octave mandolin, and on the C, G, D of my 10 string mandola. I really like the octave pairs on those instruments. Unlike a 12 string guitar, I put the "normal" string on the bass side (the one you hit first on a downward pickstroke) and the octave higher string on the treble side.

    Remember the easiest way to pick the correct gage of the octave higher string is just use one that is half the diameter of the "normal" string.

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    Default Re: Oddball stringing

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Bunting View Post
    I think he was asking about oddball stringing not oddball tuning.
    Yeah, but that's OK; it's all good.

    I figured that if any mandolin players in the world had done it besides me, they'd most likely be hanging out here at the Cafe.
    Dr H
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    Default Re: Oddball stringing

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    I'm interested to hear not only about what you build but also how you might eventually deploy them. Thanks!
    Heh, that makes them sound sort of like weapons -- which I've been told the Scottish highland pipes were once classified as for import/export purposes.


    One of the (many) interesting things about those Latin instruments is that, for many of them, there really is no one "standard" tuning -- they're more like regional tunings. I'm doing some recording with the ronroco using "Bolivian tuning", which is essentially a re-entrant tuning a 4th below the charango. But "Argentine tuning" sets the same instrument from low to high, and tunes it more like a Russian guitar.

    Finding any strings for some of these instruments is a PITA. I've had to order charango strings from Bolivia, and I've literally strung the hualycho with varied-gauge fishing line. (Never before realized that fishing line was available in so many different and precise gauges!)
    Dr H
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    Default Re: Oddball stringing

    Quote Originally Posted by Mandobart View Post
    I've done the exact same thing on my old mandolin, but didn't really care for the sound. I like the purity of unison tuning for some reason on a mandolin. However, I have octave pairs on the C, G and D of my mandocello, on the G, D and A of my octave mandolin, and on the C, G, D of my 10 string mandola. I really like the octave pairs on those instruments. Unlike a 12 string guitar, I put the "normal" string on the bass side (the one you hit first on a downward pickstroke) and the octave higher string on the treble side.

    Remember the easiest way to pick the correct gage of the octave higher string is just use one that is half the diameter of the "normal" string.
    Now that's interesting. I don't have a mandocello (maybe some day ... ) but I originally tried stringing my octave mandolin with octave pairs. To me it made it sound too much like a 12-string guitar, so I went back to all unisons, and kept it there.
    Dr H
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    "I have nothing to say, and I am saying it, and that is poetry." -- John Cage

  16. #16

    Default Re: Oddball stringing

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr H View Post
    One of the (many) interesting things about those Latin instruments is that, for many of them, there really is no one "standard" tuning -- they're more like regional tunings. I'm doing some recording with the ronroco using "Bolivian tuning", which is essentially a re-entrant tuning a 4th below the charango. But "Argentine tuning" sets the same instrument from low to high, and tunes it more like a Russian guitar.

    Finding any strings for some of these instruments is a PITA. I've had to order charango strings from Bolivia, and I've literally strung the hualycho with varied-gauge fishing line. (Never before realized that fishing line was available in so many different and precise gauges!)
    Yes I love that about the fretted stringed instruments generally, and these sort particularly. Free reeds are similar, in that--there's such variety in design and local deployment (should I say "use"?). And re-entrants are interesting to me these days (as an antidote to guitar/banjo/mando I guess) for fingerstyle exploration.

    Isn't fishing line the "traditional" material for charango? I think I heard that somewhere. And, Nylgut manufacture a set (for charango), or D'addario...can't remember which

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    ISO TEKNO delsbrother's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oddball stringing

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr H View Post
    Is there actually a tradition of octaves on the lower two courses? It seems like such a natural extention of the instrument.
    Yes, this was a common tuning used by blues players.. There is a name for this tuning, but it escapes me at the moment.. Maybe "Brownsville"?

    I'm a big fan of ragtime -- play a lot of it on guitar and piano -- but I haven't found a whole lot written exclusively for mandolin. I did write a rag for mandola last fall, but only recently have I been finding enough time to actually practice it...
    Much of the early mandolin orchestra repertoire was ragtime, given the era in which those groups were popular. If you pick up any recording of orchestras (or even quartettes) they will most likely contain some rags.

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    Default Re: Oddball stringing

    Quote Originally Posted by catmandu2 View Post
    Yes I love that about the fretted stringed instruments generally, and these sort particularly. Free reeds are similar, in that--there's such variety in design and local deployment (should I say "use"?). And re-entrants are interesting to me these days (as an antidote to guitar/banjo/mando I guess) for fingerstyle exploration.

    Isn't fishing line the "traditional" material for charango? I think I heard that somewhere. And, Nylgut manufacture a set (for charango), or D'addario...can't remember which
    Yeah fishing line was traditional, although that was in the days before precisely gauged monofilament. The hualaycho is tuned so high (5th above the charango) that I kept breaking strings. It came with a single gauge of brass string on all courses, but I couldn't even get those to hold charango tuning without breaking. Charango strings are so thick I was afraid I'd rip the bridge off using them (this instrument is smaller than a uke). The fishing line has been great. Not only was I able to get appropriately thin strings tuned all the way up, but they've been on there for 6 months now and none have broken.

    Aquila makes a nylgut set and La Bella makes a nylon set. With both I've had problems with new strings breaking as their brought up to pitch. I ended up getting Medina strings from Bolivia -- they're what the charangos originally came with. A little spendy at $18 a set, but they don't break going on, and they do last a long time.
    Dr H
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    Default Re: Oddball stringing

    Quote Originally Posted by delsbrother View Post
    Yes, this was a common tuning used by blues players.. There is a name for this tuning, but it escapes me at the moment.. Maybe "Brownsville"?


    Much of the early mandolin orchestra repertoire was ragtime, given the era in which those groups were popular. If you pick up any recording of orchestras (or even quartettes) they will most likely contain some rags.
    Were these rags written specifically for mandolin groups? Or arrangements of piano rags for mandolin orchestra?

    The reason I ask is, I've made a special study of the guitar rag -- which actually preceded the piano rag. They were very popular in the late 19th century, but very few of them actually got written down, and by the time recording became available the piano rag dominated. Most of what you hear promoted as "ragtime guitar" these days is actually ragtime piano music arranged for guitar. So I've been trying to collect as much authentic non-piano ragtime as I can find. There's a bit for banjo (Fred Van Eps recorded a bunch on Edison cylinder), and then there was some revival of guitar rags among blues players in the 1920s & 30s. But actual mandolin rags seem to be scarcer than hen's teeth.

    Not that there is anything wrong with playing arrangements, but I'm still seeking the real thing.
    Dr H
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    ISO TEKNO delsbrother's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oddball stringing

    I'm going to guess it was mostly piano rags arranged for mando, but I could be wrong. There are plenty of orchestra folk (and historians) on this board - perhaps you should post a different thread specifically asking about ragtime and see if anyone chimes in.

    Rereading my first post, I'm not even sure it's correct - I know modern MOs play ragtime arrangements, but I don't know how period-correct this is.
    Last edited by delsbrother; Apr-17-2014 at 7:29pm.

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    Gadfly Dr H's Avatar
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    Default Re: Oddball stringing

    Quote Originally Posted by delsbrother View Post
    I'm going to guess it was mostly piano rags arranged for mando, but I could be wrong. There are plenty of orchestra folk (and historians) on this board - perhaps you should post a different thread specifically asking about ragtime and see if anyone chimes in.
    I actually did that about a year ago and got some interesting responses:

    http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/sh...hlight=ragtime

    But I like to keep asking, to see if I get any new responses.

    Rereading my first post, I'm not even sure it's correct - I know modern MOs play ragtime arrangements, but I don't know how period-correct this is.
    It's easy to find rags galore arranged for guitar, mandolin, banjo, etc., but it's more challenging to find and confirm that a given rag was originally composed for one of those instruments. In the old collections, the default instrument is almost always piano. Then there are pieces with "ragtime" in the title that aren't really rags, by the usually accepted definition ("Ragtime Annie" comes to mind).

    I do know there were MO's during the ragtime heyday that played rags, but most of those I've found were arrangements of piano rags -- even Joplin did some arranging of his stuff for MO.
    Dr H
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    "I have nothing to say, and I am saying it, and that is poetry." -- John Cage

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