Reading Music Strategic Strike

[jerryk]

Hello,

My name is Jerry Kaidor, and I recently posted an intro in the general discussion forum. My father's mandolin is now in good playing condition, so I am going about learning to play it. Starting with the common major scales & two-finger chords.

Years ago, I had 5 years of classical piano lessons, and learned to read music reasonably well. I'd like to conduct a strategic strike and nail it from the get-go.

For me, one learning technique stands alone as the most effective way to absorb information: flash cards. I have passed many tests in my time - for e.g. government licenses - and have found that with flash cards I can literally memorize that "The answer to question #3259 is C".

It wouldn't be too hard to make up a flash card with the note
on one side and the name on the other. Perhaps even flash cards with the note on one side and a picture of the instrument on the other. I like that - the less translation steps the mind takes from seeing the note on the page, to pressing the finger on the fret, the better.

In my piano training, I never bothered to memorize the positions above the actual clef - the ones that use ledger lines. I got away with it because most piano music is inside or just above & below the actual clefs. And when stuff is way up there, it's often part of a chord, so you can just think "three notes above the last one" or somesuch. And when melody lines are played up there, people often write the sheet music with a notation that means "play this an octave above what you see on the page".

The mandolin is a fairly small instrument, and a lot of interesting stuff seems to be way up there. So I think I should make up flash cards that concentrate on the area above the treble clef.

A cursory web search revealed a site that creates electronic flash cards almost like I envisioned. But it only goes from note to name. Instantaneously knowing that a certain picture means "A" is of limited usefulness IMHO - the real payoff is when you see the note and your finger goes *there* without thinking about it.

- Jerry Kaidor

[belbein]

I stumbled on this. It's been great for me, though I already can read music:

http://shop.theviolincase.com/pages/...lashcards.html

You can adjust for bass or tenor clef (The tenor is the one that drives me nuts.) One other thing you may want to look into: either Pickloser's Guide to Double Stops, or (I'm going to screw this name up) Ted Eschlishman's Jazz Mando stuff. Either one of those two concentrate on patterns on the fretboard--which, as a keyboarder, you're going to be used to looking for. They're pretty easy on mando, though not as black and white as on the piano. (Sorry. Couldn't help myself.)

As for things above the treble cleff being the most interesting: I don't know about that. Most of the mando stuff I've come in contact with, at least (two and a half years in) is between Middle C and the C above the treble clef. Nothing--literally nothing--above that. But of course, that might be the fact that I am a relative novice, or the result of the music I select, or something.

[tangleweeds]

I've always been a big flash card user, but these days I find there are many small apps that serve the same purpose. I have this one on my android phone:
Mandolin Study App
It runs fine on my old (hand-me-down) and minimalist smartphone.

If you don't have a smartphone, check out this Fretboard Exercise at MusicTheory.net. If you look under the settings at upper right, you can choose a mandolin fretboard instead of a guitar.

There are more (NOT mandolin specific) music theory tutorials and exercises at MusicTheory.net and Teoria.com. Don't be put off by the "music theory" title, though it may sound like overkill for a someone just starting out. The beginning of just about any introductory music theory book or course is all about making sure the student knows how to read music.

[bayAreaDude]

Something I remember helping me with this was a statement in Debra Chen's book that said something like 'identifying which notes fall on the lines for each string and that they're always fingered with index and ring finger is the single most important technique to sight read...'. She puts it more eloquently and I don't have the book with me at the moment. I think that advice is helpful for notes above and below the staff. When I see line notes below the staff, I think A and C and the space notes sort of just fall into place above and below - I 'feel' like I know these notes better and then know the others in relation to them.

[Grommet]

Jerry-
I think you are spot on in recognizing the usefulness of cards as a learning device. I also agree that card design should go straight from notes on staff/ledgers on the front to string and fret numbers on the back (I got this idea from Joe Carr, a well known mandolin and guitar guru). It's ok to have the note name on back, but I minimize the font for the note names on my diy card sets. I like to include all ledger lines and all enharmonic equivalents in each set. Paper is cheap! For mandolin I use 2 ledger lines below the staff, and 3 above. For guitar it's 3 below and 3 above. I made 2 sets for mandolin, One is frets 0 to 6, the other covers frets 7 to 11 ( haven't used the higher set yet but have found it's good to learn all the e string notes). I broke the guitar neck into three card decks: 0-4, 5-8, 9-11.

I make my files in MS Word using text boxes alot to insert notes and ledger lines. For each deck I make one file for natural notes and modify and rename the same file to include the sharps and flats. I print on card stock each deck color coded for 1st position, 2nd position, etc. The only expensive part is having them cut at a print shop. I like tab, but I really wanted to read notation as well. The mandolin cards helped alot so I decided to make the guitar sets since I'd played that instrument mostly by ear for ever. Next maybe doublestops for mando and triads for guitar?

It was worth the effort, now I search for good tunes to practice my reading skills on. Oh, you may want to check out the TabLedit program which is great for practicing either tablature or standard notation. A free version of the reader is available for download. Enjoy that mandolin!

Scott

[SincereCorgi]

If you have an iPhone or iPad, etc, there's a very good app called Fret Tester that includes several different fretboard-learning game types with lots of customizable options (e.g. which part of the neck you want to do), and rates your progress on an ongoing basis. It includes mandolin, guitar, and bass and allows for customized tunings.

[Chris W.]

I can vouch for an Apple app called Music Tutor, free in the app store. (I assume it is available on other devices, but I don't really know) You pick treble or bass clef (or both) and the amount of time (one, five or ten minutes). Once it starts you are shown a note. You then have to identify the note by tapping one of the twelve notes on the screen. The process continues until time runs out then you are given a score. I have found it to be most helpful in identifying notes with ledger lines. On the treble clef it has a range from an F three lines below the stave to an E three lines above and will throw in sharps and flats as well, making it cover the low open G all the way through to the high E at the twelfth fret.

Happy picking (and reading!!)

[OldSausage]

Gosh I hate flash cards and flash card apps. Hate hate hate.

I know, it's not much of a contribution, is it.

[JeffD]

Something I remember helping me with this was a statement in Debra Chen's book that said something like 'identifying which notes fall on the lines for each string and that they're always fingered with index and ring finger is the single most important technique to sight read...'. She puts it more eloquently and I don't have the book with me at the moment. I think that advice is helpful for notes above and below the staff. When I see line notes below the staff, I think A and C and the space notes sort of just fall into place above and below - I 'feel' like I know these notes better and then know the others in relation to them.

I haven't read Chen, but that is a gigantically useful insight/approach. Much much more useful than Every Good Boy Does Fine in my experience.

[Jim Garber]

I have been reading for all of my musical life having first started on piano. I was just trying to imagine starting out without that ability. The main differenc I can see between std notation and tab is that in tab there is no indication of the name of the note. In SN you can easily name the note from its position on the staff but tab just gives you the fret position. Therefore using SN is a two-fold process: you have to be able to both identify the note name and then also determine where to find it on the instrument.

The advantage tho is that you can play that note in varying places on the instrument. Of course, if the music you are reading is intended for the mandolin, say, then you can also indicate fingering and that would add the advantage that tab gives you.

[bayAreaDude]

I haven't read Chen, but that is a gigantically useful insight/approach. Much much more useful than Every Good Boy Does Fine in my experience.

I highly recommend her book 'Standard Notation for the Tab Addicted Mandolinist'. It has a few mandolin specific tricks that speed up the learning process. Builds muscle memory specific to the mandolin.

[SincereCorgi]

Gosh I hate flash cards and flash card apps...

Oh, but let me tell you about the wonders of ANKI!!

No, I sympathize, but I think Fretboard Tester is pretty good and doesn't feel very flashcardy because you get immediate audio feedback and the 'card' is all on the same image of an instrument neck. Having said that, the knowledge does not transfer immediately. Just because I've gotten fast at identifying notes in the region just below the double-dot doesn't mean I can access it in a meaningful way when I am holding an instrument instead of an iPhone. It does eventually start to bleed into your practice thinking over time, though.

[bratsche]

Something I remember helping me with this was a statement in Debra Chen's book that said something like 'identifying which notes fall on the lines for each string and that they're always fingered with index and ring finger is the single most important technique to sight read...'. She puts it more eloquently and I don't have the book with me at the moment. I think that advice is helpful for notes above and below the staff. When I see line notes below the staff, I think A and C and the space notes sort of just fall into place above and below - I 'feel' like I know these notes better and then know the others in relation to them.

See, now I find that kind of advice to be singularly unhelpful, because it assumes you are going to play every passage you're sightreading in first position, and that ain't necessarily so. It also assumes that someone first learning to read music is also a beginner at playing it, when many people do things in different orders there, too.

Part of the fun and challenge of sightreading more difficult music as you progress is precisely found in trying to decide "on the fly" which fingering (second position? fourth with a shift to third? or maybe even first?) best suits the execution of the phrase you're reading at the moment - and then the next phrase, and the next, and so on. So to do that, you've got to be able to think of the notes in a way that's altogether independent from memorizing a fixed finger to play them with. Or else reading music becomes an exercise that's as limited as, and no better than, playing from tab, IMO.

bratsche

[JeffD]

It is a first position prejudice.

I am not to the level of doing alternate fingerings on the fly. I am strong sight reading in first position, and I am having fun sight reading in third position, (something I was challenged to try and its not terrible).

When I am sight reading a piece, by definition I don't know what I am going to run into. I always sight read in first position. I bring in the alternate fingerings in a very deliberate manner, only after having crashed into a problem in first position. Once I figure out where I am going shift and how I am going to play the problem part, I mark up the sheet music, for future readings.

To be able to recognize, on the fly, that a particular passage would be more easily or efficiently executed in a different place, well that's a talent I have not yet acquired.

Like I said in a different thread - without my classical coach (who moved away) I am on my own, so now when I approach a piece for the first time, I start with first position, DUDU picking, and tremolo everything a quarter note or longer - until I smash up, at which point I try and figure out what to do about it.

[Jim Garber]

My reading is pretty decent and has gotten better over the last few years when I have been playing much more classical and reading sheet music. Even my sight reading has improved -- I can see in a measure ahead or so that there is a third or fourth position note coming up and I can prepare to shift.

I still have problems with sight reading some rhythmic variations, esp more syncopated phrases or ones that tie across the bar lines. I find this esp hard to sight read but when working on pieces I can count out the melodies and can figure them out.

[bigskygirl]

Hi jerryk, I enjoyed your intro post and glad to hear your dad's mandolin is playing again.

I like flash cards myself, like you said they are great for learning things for tests and such. In my previous life I spent time learning alot of medical and pharmacological info and as if that wasn't enough I became a CPA during the time that computers and calculators were not used during the examination process. As a result, I always had my little box of flash cards with me.

So, having had enough of that.....when I decided to learn the mandolin I found a few apps that were helpful. One called 'Trainer 'has a host of different stringed instruments and has a "game" that quizzes knowledge of the fretboard and the staff. For instance, it will lay out the mandolin fretboard and then highlight a fret and you name the note or give you the note on a staff (yes, even the dreaded above the staff ones....ha) and you press the fretboard position for that note.

You can customize the settings to focus on a range of frets - which gets me into that unexplored territory above the fifth fret, what kind of accidentals or alternate tuning to use, and even a timed setting to get one thinking quicker. Guitar Toolkit and Jamn are a couple other I use from time to time.

[bayAreaDude]

See, now I find that kind of advice to be singularly unhelpful, because it assumes you are going to play every passage you're sightreading in first position, and that ain't necessarily so. It also assumes that someone first learning to read music is also a beginner at playing it, when many people do things in different orders there, too.

Part of the fun and challenge of sightreading more difficult music as you progress is precisely found in trying to decide "on the fly" which fingering (second position? fourth with a shift to third? or maybe even first?) best suits the execution of the phrase you're reading at the moment - and then the next phrase, and the next, and so on. So to do that, you've got to be able to think of the notes in a way that's altogether independent from memorizing a fixed finger to play them with. Or else reading music becomes an exercise that's as limited as, and no better than, playing from tab, IMO.

bratsche

I've been reading for saxophone for decades which didn't help when trying to find notes on the mandolin. I found value in a system that emphasizes making a muscle memory type connection between what you see on the staff and the Mandolin itself instead of just note recognition, which I already had. For me playing up the neck has also not been a problem - but I think that draws more on my knowledge of scales and how they're connected on the fretboard, FFcP basically, and not so much to do with anything I could learn from a sight reading method. Debra has real chops on many instruments - her method has worked great for me and I haven't found it to be limiting and it's made a world of sheet music available to me for mandolin that previously wasn't.

[Killian King]

I had what I thought was a brainstorm a few weeks ago to use tab, but instead of a fret number I would add a note. I was thinking I could do this for a handful of fiddle tunes I am learning, maybe some arpeggios or pentatonic, FFcP, etc.

Just the act of creating the Note Tab would be part of the learning process I figure.

Maybe just Brain drizzle, who knows. I'll let you know if I decide to do it.

[Jim Garber]

I had what I thought was a brainstorm a few weeks ago to use tab, but instead of a fret number I would add a note. I was thinking I could do this for a handful of fiddle tunes I am learning, maybe some arpeggios or pentatonic, FFcP, etc.

Just the act of creating the Note Tab would be part of the learning process I figure.

Maybe just Brain drizzle, who knows. I'll let you know if I decide to do it.

I suppose that could work but maybe you should put that same amount of effort into learning standard notation. Just a thought!

[Killian King]

I understand standard notation, but I cannot sight read fast enough to play a tune. When I took Bass lessons almost 10 years ago, I was learning to sight read and I enjoyed it quite a bit. As a guitar player though, I've certainly seen a lot more tablature than standard notation. I can open a tabledit file and just start playing along right away (without playing the file). The mandozine archive has been an invaluable resource in my mandolin journey.

I guess my idea was to use the note tab method for a brief while just to get the notes/fretboard in my head.

[billhay4]

I can open a tabledit file and just start playing along right away (without playing the file). The mandozine archive has been an invaluable resource in my mandolin journey.

Can you? What key is it in? What is the rhythm? Suppose you wish an alternate fingering, or find the fingering of the tab awkward?
Tab is easy, but quite limited.
Bill

[Killian King]

Can you? What key is it in? What is the rhythm? Suppose you wish an alternate fingering, or find the fingering of the tab awkward?
Tab is easy, but quite limited.
Bill

This seems a bit aggressive to me. Just because you live in U Place, don't take it out on someone else. Yes, I am familiar with it and the Gertrude Stein Quote regarding "There is no there there" springs to mind. Except for the Burke Gilman trail which I believe makes it that far and is a little bit of all right.

I can, and the reason is that most of these tunes (bluegrass, celtic) are pretty simple rhythmically and tend to follow the same few basic rhythms.

What Key is it in? First off, for the most part I don't give a r*ts. I'm learning a song/melody and getting it in my fingers so I don't really care, but again, these are simple songs and I can tell what key it's in 99% of the time by looking at what chords are listed above the tab. I am also playing these songs unaccompanied, or accompanying myself on guitar. I don't think I've learned one song from the Bluegrass or celtic selections on mandozine where I was unable to tell the key just from looking at the chords.

If I find the tab fingering awkward, it's probably because the song is too advanced for me, but I can transpose to play in a different part of the fretboard with just a small amount of thought.

I am not a music notation philistine, but give me a break, I don't plan to sight read notation for my mandolin playing and I'm not playing classical music either. I want to hear, feel and play the music. The only reason I look at any music at all is because I have never heard most of these songs before.

[JeffD]

The cool thing about music notation, well a couple of cool things - is that competence in reading gives immediate access to anything that has been written past or present, for any instrument - I would hate to be limited to music that is being played around me or has been recorded. (You don't have to find someone to mando-tab out the clarinet solo to your favorite Gershwin, you can just get the music and play it.) The other thing is that you can, at some point, tell if its going to be something you will enjoy playing, just by looking, before you commit to learning it.


At the same time there is a lot of music not written down, and to really get the feeling and lilt, there is no substitute for ear training.


Its all good.

[billhay4]

Ah, Kilian,
University Place in nowhere near Seattle.
Bill

[Fretboard Toolbox]

Hi Jerry,

I wanted to learn the same thing, so I made a page for Standard Notation for each of the instruments in my books. You can download my Standard Notation Jig for Mandolin for free here. If you check it out, please excuse the fact that I recently discovered that I have had the maroon colored "B" note in the wrong place for a couple of years now. I need to fix that soon! :-)

Scott

PS With your piano background, you also might find it interesting to see how the piano and mandolin relate.