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Thread: Lacquer to Varnish

  1. #1
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    As idle minds sometimes do, they think of stupid ideas, like the one I have been mulling over #- #or is it! #I often like to look at "worst case scenarios" and determine whether something is worth risking. #For example, I have a pretty valuable piece of southern stoneware (worth about $4,000, made around 1850, but it was seriously "underfired" in the kiln when made. #If I choose to re-fire it and it comes out like I think, it will be an $8,000 piece. #Worst case scenario is the re-firing caauses it to shatter and it is worthless. #Not going to do it.

    What if I had a $4K - 5K lacquer mandolin and decided I wanted a varnish finish. #I could do like Steve Stone (I think I'm correct) and send it out to Gibson and let them strip and refinish it in varnish. #Just guessing, it would probably be $2K or more. #Or, I could strip it and varnish it myself. #I have extensive experience in staining and working with lacquer, but have never French polished and instrument. #Is it so darn complicated that I would be stupid to try it? #Am I just loco to consider it?

    Personally, I think I could manage the "techinical" part and would post another thread on the "repair and construction" section, but I am just wondering out loud if others have considered it or have done it. #Also, would you re-do the neck to or just the body?

    Some thoughts!
    Linksmaker

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    Well then. Here's my opinion.

    First, why refinish? Why not get a varnished mandolin if that's what you want?
    If it's a mandolin that you really like, so you don't want to replace it, why mess with it? Isn't it fine with lacquer?
    Do you just want the project of the refinish? Well then, why not?

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    John:

    I really don't disagree with you. I have one varnish mandolin and several lacquer ones and I don't necessarily consider the varnish one any better.

    I don't think I would buy a lacquer model just for the sole purpose of refinishing it in varnish, but if I had a lacquer model and wanted varnish, I was wondering if folks thought it was a viable alternative to 1) pays 2k or 3k to have it refinished or 2) selling it and paying 2k to 3k plus for the same model in varnish.

    Although, I may be able to afford any option, there are some folks that may not. Even if I could afford it, I (and others) might want to try it.

    The crux of the question - what is the downside of doing it. It seems to me that the most crucial part (of doing permanent or semi-permanent damage to the instrument) is the stripping and being careful not to weaken any joints with solvent.

    Again, just thinking out loud and seeing if anyone else ever thinks about stuff like this. Another question I considered is if a maker would sell you an instrument in the "white" and let you finish it. If I were a professional luthier, I would not, as I would not "chance" the finished product to an amateur. What they do with their finished mandolin is up to them.
    Linksmaker

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    Registered User Bill Snyder's Avatar
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    Getting a really good finish on an instrument takes knoweldge and care. I would think getting a good refinish would be much more difficult. I personally would dive into refinishing a lesser priced instrument in a heart beat if I did not like the finish on it. On a $4-5k I would be very hesitant unless I had quite a bit of experience with repair/refinishing.
    But it's your mandolin so go for it. Just don't be suprised if the value of the mandolin drops - A LOT.
    That's my .02.
    Bill Snyder

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    Registered User Steven Stone's Avatar
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    My ears were burning so I thought I'd chime in

    At the expense of stating the obvious - a varnish refin done by anyone but Gibson will not be like a Gibson finish. They have their own special methods that I don't believe any other shop can exactly reproduce. A refin done on a lacquer Fern elsewhere will very likely devalue the instrument, not augment its value.

    I'm not going to ruminate on whether a varnish refin by another shop or luthier will sound like a varnish finish from Gibson. I strongly suspect that it will not.

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    Registered User Steven Stone's Avatar
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    Here's what I wrote in Vintage Guitar Magazine about the refin:

    Gibson’s Nashville mandolin factory uses a specially developed proprietary oil varnish process on their Master Model and varnish Fern instruments. Their formula attempts to duplicate what Lloyd Loar used on the first F-5’s he made in 1922. Of course Gibson has come up with a few modern twists, including a special drying cabinet that exposes the finish to high levels of UV light so what would normally take 30 days to dry can be cured in 24 hours. The Gibson varnish finish method requires several steps. First the body is stained with the distinctive Gibson sunburst, sealed, and then the first couple coats of oil varnish are applied and sanded back. The final varnish coats are French polished on. This multi-step process requires far more time, even with their special UV drying chamber, than a spirit varnish finish. Gibson’s Charlie Derrington, the head of their mandolin division, feels that this extra effort is well worth the time and effort since it creates a unique sounding and feeling instrument that is more like the original Lloyd Loar F-5s.

    I’ve owned this mandolin for two years so I have a good idea of how it sounded with its original lacquer finish. I also made some recordings with the mandolin before I sent it off to Gibson so I could compare before to after. The refinishing job cost me $2500, which was the price before Gibson’s most recent price adjustments instituted in September 2004. Their current price for a complete refinishing now starts at $2800. A new varnish finished Fern lists for $15,600 while a lacquer-finished Fern goes for $8500. Although if you compare list prices it seems as if buying a lacquer Fern and having it refinished by Gibson would be a less expensive way to get a varnish Fern, street prices of a used refinished varnished Fern run very close to the best discounted price for a new one.

    It took Gibson slightly less than four months to complete the refinishing job. My mandolin left on August 4th and reappeared on November 18th. While they had the Fern I also had them replace the original Schaller tuners with the latest Grover tuners that Gibson now uses on all their Ferns. The only other change Gibson made was the original full-size pickguard was replaced with a new smaller floating pickguard that Gibson created for their limited edition Wayne Benson model F-5s.

    A Photo Finish

    So how does a varnish finish change the sound of a mandolin? Perhaps I should start by describing how my Gibson Fern sounded before it was refinished. From when I first received the instrument on October 4, 2002 (it was signed September 22, 2002), this particular Fern had a great deal of bass energy with a substantial woof on chop chords. It also had a very warm overall tonality because of its prominent low end coupled with a sweet and slightly reticent treble response. While it was loud, it didn’t necessarily cut through a mix with authority because the loudest parts of its harmonic spectrum were very similar to frequencies of a rhythm guitar and banjo, while its upper range did not project as powerfully. Once when I was playing duets with a mandolinist using his new A-style Nugget, the Gibson almost sounded like a mandola due to its much darker tonal palette. Even my Wiens, which also has a somewhat dark, mezzo-soprano-like voice, had more upper frequency punch and cutting power than the Fern.

    When the Fern returned to me after refinishing it was definitely a different looking and sounding instrument. Although Gibson retained the more reddish sunburst that is characteristic of Ferns compared to Master Models, the finish has a more subtle and less vibrant tonality than the original lacquer sunburst. Also the figure on the back and neck of the Fern looks more dramatic. The quality of the finish surface itself seems quite different. Not only is the finish thinner, but also it is less consistent, with various areas showing more gloss than others as well as buffing marks and small imperfections. The Gibson varnish finish gives the strong impression that it was done by hand during an extended period of time. Some of this can be attributed to the fact that was a refin rather than done from bare wood. The 1999 Gilchrist I used to own and my 2003 Wiens both have more flawless finishes. But to create such a finish using the Gibson oil-based method would require more coats of varnish, which would create a thicker, less sonically transparent result.

    If you are the kind of person who demands an absolutely perfect varnish finish on your new mandolin, I suspect Gibson’s varnish finish may not meet your lofty expectations. During the last four years I’ve examined more than a dozen new varnish-finished Gibson mandolins and I have yet to see a single one that I would call perfect. But I have also never seen a perfectly made vintage Lloyd Loar-signed F-5 mandolin. These new Gibsons do remain true to their forbearer’s level of craftsmanship. Modern builders such as Gilchrist and Nugget do deliver close to perfect varnish finishes, but their finishes utilize modern spirit-based varnish formulae with different sonic properties.

    So how did the Fern sound after refinishing? Different. The first thing I noticed was the instrument has a lot more upper-frequency energy than it did before. Gone is that dark mellow tone. While it still has plenty of bass woof, it now has more upper midrange and treble power to balance its lower frequency power. The Fern also has a brassier, more bell-like timbre, even on the low G-strings. While before the overall balance was dark and woody, now it is sharper with substantially more bite. In some way the mandolin sounds newer, with extra shimmer and more upper midrange glare than many players would consider ideal. In a group situation this Fern cuts far better with its new more assertive tonality. I feel like my nice comfortable classic stock Ford Mustang has been modified into a fire-breathing Shelby Mustang GT.

    As this new varnish finish continues to cure I expect the Fern’s sound will undergo more changes. Even though the wood and glue in the mandolin is almost three years old, the new finish coupled with the fact that the mando spent nearly four months with no strings to maintain top tension means that it will be breaking in gradually over the next year just like a new instrument would. I suspect that some of the brassiness and “greenness” I hear will dissipate. Anecdotal evidence from many Master Model owners I’ve talked with indicates that I can expect the sound of my Fern to change and gradually mellow over the next couple of years.

    The refinish has been a sonic trade-off. Some warmth and sweetness has been sacrificed for upper frequency authority and impact. The varnish Fern is a livelier, more dynamically responsive instrument, better suited now for bluegrass ensemble playing. But some of its woody sunny harmonic glow has been exchanged for a brassy, more aggressive sonic balance.

    Do As I Say, Not as I Do

    I suppose the final question is whether I would encourage lacquer-finished Fern owners to have their mandolins refinished in varnish? I think not. I feel that the sound of a lacquer-finished Fern has its own special harmonic strengths that will not necessarily be retained with a varnish finish. If you favor a sweet and woody-sounding new F-style mandolin, a good lacquer-finished Fern has few equals. A varnish-finished Fern is a different beast. It sounds much closer to a Master Model than to a lacquer Fern. After only a few moments of playing time you can easily hear the differences between varnish and lacquer-finished Ferns. Conversely, if it weren’t for the Fern’s slightly more prominent bottom-end caused by its more flexible Sitka spruce top verses the Master Model’s stiffer red spruce top, I suspect most listeners would have a difficult time telling a varnish Fern from a Master model. Which Fern you prefer will be a matter of personal taste and applicability to the musical situations you most often find yourself in. For Bluegrass I prefer the varnish Fern, but when practicing alone or playing with just a few other musicians I do miss my lacquer-finished Fern’s warmth. As my father used to say, all too frequently, “You pays your money and you takes your chances.”

  7. #7
    Registered User Steven Stone's Avatar
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    Here was a follow-up several months later:

    Gibson Fern Redux

    It seems to be a matter of faith among collectors and musicians that instruments actually do break in. I’m on the fence on this subject, since I’ve come to the conclusion that some instruments do change with time and some instruments don’t. We know that finishes, whether varnish or lacquer, out-gas during at least the first six months of their creation, leaving a thinner coating of finish behind. Lacquer finishes very often display checking and micro cracks after 20 or more years because the wood underneath continues to expand and contract while the finish itself does not. Does this affect the sound of an instrument? In most cases it does have an effect, but how much? Do finish changes make as much of a sonic difference as the aging of the wood and the glue, or vibrations on the instrument? Since there are few, if any, truly scientific ways to measure the amount of difference each element has upon the total sound of an instrument, one person’s theories have as much validity as the next person’s. So let me share some of my own anecdotal findings.

    Last month I wrote about my lacquer-finished 2002 Gibson Fern mandolin, which I sent back to Gibson to be refinished in varnish. When it came back its sound had changed, but I was not completely knocked over by the new harmonic balance. Instead of the warm rich mandolin I used to have, I now had a more aggressive, somewhat raw-sounding instrument. I felt like when I had the original plastic nut changed on my 1951 D-28 to ivory and it went from being warm, yet assertive, to downright nasty. If you’ve ever had an instrument’s sound change for the worse after what you thought should be a beneficial or benign modification, you know the feeling.

    After a couple of hours of playing, my newly varnished Fern still sounded somewhat raw and harsh, but I persevered, taking it to my usual weekly four-hour bluegrass band rehearsals. Near the end of the second session, a week later, I noticed it changed – the harsh overtones that had been bothering me began to take on a bell-like quality. After another couple more of hours of playing (and another week of time) the instrument had lost all of its harshness while maintaining all of its penetrating quality. Of course I was delighted by this turn of events. Some folks would just assume the strings had broken in, but the difference was far more profound than merely string break-in. The Fern’s depth of tone had returned.

    Since the wood and glue on my 2002 Fern haven’t aged much more in three weeks than during the last two years, that leaves the aging of the finish and strings, and “waking up” as possible culprits in the recent changes in the instrument’s tone. My money’s divided between finish changes and waking up. I’ve noticed that archtop acoustic instruments can “go to sleep” when they aren’t played or stored with their strings at less than full tension. During the four months the mandolin was away being refinished it spent most of that time unstrung. After that long a period with no strings it can take a while for the instrument to fully acclimate to being strung up again. So which is it, the finish or just waking up? Darned if I know. What I do know that the Fern has suddenly blossomed into a really superb mandolin that couples cutting power with a rich deep harmonic character. The way it’s going this Gibson Fern may well become my favorite bluegrass mandolin.

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    I am especially interested in this topic because I have been considering having the thick and un-naturally durable "varnish" finish on my Monroe model refinished by Gibson;that would set me back $3K. Also, they would replace the metal bolts in the neck with carbon fiber..... thangs;and regraduate things as they see necessary(all for the $3K). This mandolin is my very favorite in playability but not in tone/volume. I totally understand the differences in the Monroe compared to the new MM;I have an '04 MM. I am wondering if anyone out there has had this change to their Monroe model? I was told at Gibson that they have done a number of refins on the Monroes. They would have to take the back off of the Monroe to do this work. I'm sure it would be much 'different';and I don't think it would detract from the value of the instrument. $3K is alot for me to gamble.

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    PS:Thank you,Steven Stone,for posting your experiences with refinishing your Fern. Didn't the late '20s('29) Ferns have a nitrocellulose finish? I'd sure like to hear your thoughts on having a Monroe model refinished in current Gibson varnish. Please be gentle

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    Links,

    Have you considered varnishing the southern stoneware and firing the mandolin? Hmm... maybe it's late and I should go to bed...

    pd
    "... beauty is not found in the excessive but what is lean and spare and subtle" - Terry Tempest Williams

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    Paul:

    Sometimes I get a little confused before I have my milk and cookies!

    Cameron:

    I too have a Monroe varnish and lacquer model. My lacquer model sounds quite good and the varnish model is outstanding. Personally, I would not have my varnish one re-done (mine, not yours). I picked mine out of six others and really got a good one. I am interested in what Gibson has done regarding the neck joints and what it would cost.

    Steven: Thanks for re-posting those comments. I hoped that you would do that. You make a lots of the points that I was trying to make in a much more exhaustive and thorough manner. But to expand on them and further explain the reason for the original question, I think you have to dig a little deeper.

    1) Why in the world would a varnish Fern be $7100 more than a lacquer model. You answered the question that I was going to ask. Why noy buy a lacquer model and have it refinished. I can only conclude it is less trouble to strip an instrument and refinish it in varnish than to finish one in varnish from the start. What else can you conclude. Part of my original question involved how much work there really is in varnishing an instrument. Of course, you are also paying for "knowledge" and not just elbow grease and materials.

    2) Here, you and I would disagree a little. What is "magic" (I mean this in a kind, not smart aleck way) about the Gibson varnish formula? (Maybe Charlie or Big Joe could chime in). Are we to assume there is an unbroken "chain" of possession of the secret formula from the Loar days to now. IT seems that over the years (especially during the Norlin years) that they lost everything else that pertained to building fine instruments, so why should we assume that they kept "the formula". In my opinion, thanks to guys like Big Joe and Charlie, were they able to right the ship and start producing the instruments that they do today.

    One reason I question the "chain" of possession, is that when one of the former Gibson employees who used to be in charge of finishing some of their instruments (not mandolins to my knowledge, but the same could be true here) was relieved of his duties, he told two of the other workers whom were also leaving the company, not to tell the "new" guy a thing about how they applied the finish. When the new guy asked one of the finish men what he could tell him about the finishing process, he told him he couldn't tell him anything, but allowed him to watch him finish some instruments for several days. After the old "finishers" left, the "new" guy was on his own and eventually developed his own method for finishing instruments. This is not "here-say", as I read this directly from the person that experienced it. There are probably some other versions, but I think the gist of trhe story is correct.

    Steven, I know you are not implying that Gibson's is either the only way to necessarily the best method of varnishing a mandolin. However, it is "Gibson's way! Who is to say that some other makers are not getting their finish closer to the Loar varnish than Gibson.

    So far, I still do not have a reasonable explanation why varnishing and instrument should be so difficult so as not to allow a skilled craftsman/artist to do it themselves or why a varnish is so darn expensive.
    Linksmaker

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    Charlie

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    Registered User sunburst's Avatar
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    About the "chain" of posession of the varnish process at Gibson;

    There are no secrets in the finish manufacturing industry.
    All the companies have gas chromatographs and various chemical means of analizing the competitions formulae.
    I know someone who works for a manufacturer of wood finishes. I can take him a can of nearly anything - like a discontinued finish, for example - and he can make me a batch. It can be an empty can. All you have to do is re-disolve it and analize it.
    So...all you need is enough years of experience repairing Loars to get some finish samples together and have them analized. Of coarse, you need to do each layer, and you have to figure out how it was applied, and on and on, I don't mean to make it sound too simple, but with enough research, you can get pretty close to the original way...can anybody guess who might have had the opportunity and done that research?

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    H'mmmm - Charlie maybe?

    Next time I play a Loar, I'll just take my pocket knife and scrape a little finish off!

    Why's Charlie smiling? I'm guessing he knows something we don't - and he "ain't" telling!

    Anybody got a Loar I can play for a few days?
    Linksmaker

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    Registered User Steven Stone's Avatar
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    [Why in the world would a varnish Fern be $7100 more than a lacquer model]

    When I wrote the article that difference was only on paper, given the discounting that usually went on with Gibsons. Now it seems as if list minus a maximum of 10% discount seems like the going rate for new Gibson Mandos. Obviously if you buy a used Fern and then have it refined by gibson you will be spending substantially less than you would for an new fern,given the price differential, that might be a good option, but of course if more people do this the waiting time for getting a refin from Gibson will probably increase.

    So, kid, ya wanna'buy a fern and then give it to Gibson for a year before you see it again?

    As for the actual formulation, Charlie say its special. I believe him. I know Gibson's varnish finish seems to be much harder from the get-go than a Gilchrist, Nugget, or Wiens varnish finish. That seems to indicate a different formulation coupled with different treatment.

    Snburst clains there are no secrets. Perhaps that should read no secrets THAT HE KNOWS OF. OF course those fiddle makers have put a lot of brain power into reproducing strad fiddles with little to show for it, so I suspect there may be some secrets out there.

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    Steven:

    Not completely true about Strads!

    One of my good friends is Carl Becker's brother-in-law, and a number of years ago I met Carl at my friend's Christmas party. I had recently read an article about Carl's restotration of the "Lady Blount", an original Strad violin. That was also a time when many of the Japanese collectors were buying all of the "big" name violins (Amati's, Gueneri's, etc.) that they could find (ultimately forcing prices up dramatically). I specifically asked Carl about the Strads he had worked on along with the other "biggies" that he had had in his shop.

    Carl stated that there are many "new" makers whose instruments were far superior in tone to many of the masters. Carl is a world class luthier and I value his opinion. (I might also mention that Carl is quite humble and has let his instruments speak for themselves). He is also from a family of luthiers and has probably gotten the benefit of much "trial and error" for many years.

    I think that Sunburst is probably right about the "make-up" of varnishes not being a secret, with today's technology, and acknowledged that the "make-up" of the material is not an indication of how it is applied or cured.

    Maybe Charlie is smiling because it is so simple it is a "no brainer" for someone with a little knowledge - or -it is so complicated that no one will ever get it. Of course, it could be like the Coca Cola formula where no single person knows it all!
    Linksmaker

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    Thanks, Links.
    I didn't say there were no secrets. I said there were no secrets in the finish manufacturing industry.
    If I have a sample of a finish, access to the labs and machinery to analize it, and the money to do it, I can duplicate any finish as far as the formula.
    That doesn't mean I can duplicate a process - though the processes of making finishes are pretty well known in the industry.
    Furthermore, suppose I have the same varnish as company X. That doesn't mean I can get the same results as they do anymore than having the same paint means I can reproduce a Rembrandt.

  18. #18

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    Steven-

    I really like your description of the varnish Fern. #I think it's very accurate. #However, I think the difference in tone between the Master Model and the V-Fern is considerably more than just the bottom end. #There is a tonality to the midrange on a Master Model that the V-Fern doesn't have. #I personally think it's a huge difference. #I'm a big fan of both the V-Fern and the Master Model, but IMO they are completely different animals.

    Life is Good!

    Jeff

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    Weren't late '20s Ferns done in lacquer?

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