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Thread: Luthier School

  1. #26
    Registered User Rolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Hi John,
    Just read your post this morning. Jenny did start out with me before going to Bryan's school. Actually, she grew up in a wood working family and helped out from an early age---climbed on a crate to use a band saw. So she had considerable woodworking experience before choosing luthiery. By the time she went to Bryan's school, her inlaying skills were a higher caliber than the faculty, and she is even better now. She is already at my level in many aspects of building and will carry on the Phoenix line when I stop building some day. She'll be on the mandolin panel at The Symposium in June. You probably met her at The Symposium four years ago in Wesminster, Maryland.
    Rolfe Gerhardt

  2. #27
    Registered User Mark Seale's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Rolfe -

    Is Jenny going to be part of the builder's track at Symposium this year?

  3. #28
    ISO TEKNO delsbrother's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Quote Originally Posted by Hans View Post
    As Michael says, treat it as a hobby. In other words, don't quit your day job.
    The problem is, some of us aren't quitting our day jobs - the jobs are quitting us.

  4. #29
    Registered User Rolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Seale View Post
    Rolfe -

    Is Jenny going to be part of the builder's track at Symposium this year?
    Yes, Mark, on Saturday morning (9-11:45), June 13th, we have a panel presentation on building mandolins step by step. John Monteleone, Dave Cohen, David Nichols, Jenny and I will be the panel---a really varied group in terms of techniques and equipment. We have divided the basic construction into units, and one of us will present how he/she builds that unit then the rest of us will chime in with what we each do differently. We will have some samples with us of the steps and hope to have time for lots of questions. Jenny and I will take turns since we build the same mandolin. The presentations will stop short of finishing since that is covered in other workshops. This presenation is perfect for anyone looking to build mandolins or trying to find out how the other guy/gal does it.
    Rolfe Gerhardt

  5. #30
    Registered User Mark Seale's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Are we talking about the Mandolin Symposium in Santa Cruz June 22-27 or a different one? Your builder's panel sounds really interesting.

  6. #31
    Registered User Lefty Luthier's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    I learned the trade as most do; study - experiment - screw up - figure out what went wrong - try again. It helps to have a graduate degree in physics but real skill comes only by doing. Most luthiers will gladly provide critique and suggestions but only by building instruments will one master the trade. The few apprentices that I have had were all from the boat building or cabinet trades and already very good with the tools, only having to master the acoustic issues. My suggestion is to bag the schools and just start building.

  7. #32
    Registered User Rolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    The builder's panel I'm talking about is at The Symposium of the Association of Stringed Instrument Artisans (ASIA) in East Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania. You can find more information in the calendar section of the CAFE (June) or at www.guitarmaker.org. It is a super gathering every two years.
    Rolfe Gerhardt

  8. #33
    iii mandolin Geoff B's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    The practical experience is really what you need to solidify all the information you can get through people, reading, demonstrations, etc. One nice thing about schools (from my own experience) is that you have many people doing the same/similar thing, so you can learn together. The collective experience can be very powerful because you'll encounter an issue that someone else in the class didn't, but you can BOTH learn from it. Or if the other people have an issue that you didn't encounter but learn from, etc. If you are in a school where several instruments are being taught at once, you get exposed to different methods that can be adapted to different instruments. At RRCC, we have 3 carved-top instrument classes (guitar, mandolin, violin) with 3 different techniques to lay out the contours (using a pin router, the drill press method, and a duplicarver) and one can see/experience the three methods in a single night. Similarly with neck joints (the guitar classes are all jigged up, or a by-hand method with the violin class). Something to consider if you are the type who is interested in more than one method and are motivated to find your own way and let other students help you learn common pitfalls (or teach other students yourself!). Like all things, a school is but one way of many...

  9. #34

    Default Re: Luthier School

    Rolfe,
    Do they video tape those presentations?

  10. #35
    Registered User Rolfe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Quote Originally Posted by thistle3585 View Post
    Rolfe,
    Do they video tape those presentations?
    They did several times over the years, but the tapes just languished or disappeared. The cost of taping was also quite high; decent quality work demanded a camera person in each workshop. Taping is not even on the table this time. Sorry.
    Rolfe Gerhardt

  11. #36
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    I went to Redwing 20 years ago and the most important thing i learned was how to sharpen tools. I thought i was good at sharpening before i went, but what i learned there makes the tools really work. You can learn this without school. I am sure any one would be glad to show you and then practice using them, practice using them, practice using them.
    THE WORLD IS A BETTER PLACE JUST FOR YOUR SMILE!

  12. #37
    Registered User jim_n_virginia's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Quote Originally Posted by delsbrother View Post
    Uh.. No offense.. But do paid apprenticeships in lutherie actually exist today? If so, where?
    Well fellas I just talked with two Luthiers that I know (mostly builds custom guitars but some mandolins and fiddles) and when I asked each out them if they paid their apprentices BOTH of them looked at me like I was nuts.

    So I stand corrected and as usual I have inserted my feet in my mouth again.

    Just seemed weird to me that just because you are learning you don't get paid. I mean even doctor residents just out of medical school get paid for on the job training.

    And I have trained so many carpenters and helpers over the years and I would love to see the look on their faces if I told them they had to pay ME because they are getting training! LOL!

    Anyways I'll stick to just playing the mandolin as opposed to talking about building them!

    Carry on Gentlemen!

  13. #38
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    Jim, "just out of medical school"...you said it yourself. They have six to eight years of training already, not zero which is what non-luthier school apprentices have. Untrained apprentices are barely able to sweep the floor without getting into trouble in my shop. I just let a "trained" one go. He'd been to an obviously totally inadequate program (at the Musicians Institute in Hollywood...beware!), and couldn't get past joining tops and backs and gluing braces on my semi-hollow instruments. He barely broke even on the $11.00 an hour I was paying him, and only did that by getting us about four months farther ahead on some parts than I really need to be. I was making work for him.

    Beginning luthiers come out of Redwing, Roberto Venn, Gallup, etc. ready to be apprentices worthy of paying about $10.00 an hour...or if they start at Santa Cruz Guitars, it will be under $9.00.

    As for do-it-yourself learning...it's never been easier with all the books, videos, the Internet forums, easy access to tools and parts, etc., and I still see and hear wannabe luthiers whining about the costs. Yet they, and their moms and dads think nothing of the "necessity" of sending them to a four year college where they come out $30,000.00 in debt without clear career goals. WTF?

    And just because many of us old #### luthiers learned on our own and by sharing doesn't mean we'd go that route again. If I were starting off, I'd go to Roberto Venn or Redwing, spend a couple of grand on learning materials, another couple of grand on all the whiz-bang hand tools I though I might need from LMI and StewMac, and then apprentice myself for a relatively low wage working in a repair shop.

    My advice also to would-be builders is not to concentrate on building full time until you've put in at least five years in a commercial guitar repair shop. Repairing is where you really learn to think.

  14. #39
    Registered User otterly2k's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    I'll chime in my 2c here ....

    I spent 2 months at the Galloup School last spring - I was in between "day jobs" and found that the Journeyman program provided the systematic, thorough, hands-on approach that I was looking for in order to develop foundation skills and knowledge for instrument building and repair. I am continuing to use this as a hobby/sidelight, as I don't yet have the skills or experience to make a career of it. I didn't expect that from a 2 month course... but I do believe it was a very good course and a good value for the tuition. The course is well-organized, the shop is very well set up and supplied, and tuition includes materials, access to all needed tools, and lodging (which was a major factor for me). I will echo what Jacob said ... Russ (the main instructor) is a good teacher. Bryan is incredibly skilled, but does not do much of the direct teaching at all.

    For myself... I'm really glad I did it. I am much better equipped than I was before in terms of hand skills, construction knowledge, and confidence. Because I am in my 40's (with financial obligations) and was in between jobs, I did not have the option of enrolling in a longer course either there or at one of the other schools. For me, it was a good choice. But I was not expecting it to launch me in a new career by itself. I came away feeling good about what I had learned, and knowing that what I need now is a LOT more hands-on experience.

    KE
    ps. to the original poster... if you want to ask more detailed questions about my experience, feel free to PM me.
    Karen Escovitz
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    If you're gonna walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!

  15. #40
    ISO TEKNO delsbrother's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    The program at MI that Rick mentioned above is MUCH more expensive than Roberto-Venn, especially considering it's only a part-time program. I looked into that as well, and the main thing it had going for it was I wouldn't have to move to Phoenix (which would also cost a significant amount of money).

    The other thing I liked about it was I could make anything I wanted to make. So if I wanted to make doubleneck mandocellos that was fine with them...as long as they were solidbodies. There were no acoustics being made at all. I got the feeling the dream job of a lot of those guys was a guitar tech position for a touring band, though there were some who apparently went on to work for local guitar factories.

    In any case, I ended up deciding it was too much for not enough. Now that I've heard a review from Rick, I consider that money well-saved! Thanks Rick.

  16. #41
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    Default Re: Luthier School

    BTW, when I said "barely broke even"...I meant for me. He was barely worth the money we were paying relative to his useful productivity.

    And I got the same impression re. the goal of the MI course...that it's training for on-the-road rock'n'roll roadies more than anything else, and if SoCal factories are hiring the MI grads, it's for very, very narrow jobs on assembly lines. That's not my shop, as production oriented as we are.

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