F style neck heel question

Hi all. Im building an f style mando using siminoffs 56 page book and am at the stage where i am about to attach the neck to the rim assembly (with top). I followed his plans exactly and found that (i think, if i havnt made a mistake) his plan for the one piece neck in this book, leaves the heel too short. As i understand it, once the neck is set with the proper angle, the plane of the neck (with out fret board) should rise above the mando top by about 1/2 inch, thus leaving the end of the heal flush with the back of the head block. As it is, with the dimensions he gives, the back of the heel is countersunk considerably far from the back of the head block. IF, the neck plane was to be flush with the top, then his dimensions would be perfect. BUT its not supposed to be , right? Any one whao has experiance using this book who can help me or anyone else, it would be greatly appreciated. I dont know if i made a mistake in my understanding or what... Thanks.

Remember there's a fretboard that glues to the neck.

The overstand (the height of the fingerboard surface above the top without the fingerboard, at the neck joint) of a Loar F5 is somewhere around 3/8". I use a measurement more like 1/4". You didn't say how much your heel lacks reaching the back surface of the head block, but if it is 1/4" or less, it sounds to me like you're still in business. Keep in mind that as the overstand gets lower, string breakover angle at the bridge increases, assuming the same bridge height, so adjustments can be made there too, if needed.
You also didn't mention the thickness of the head block. That can be reduced if necessary, especially if you haven't already cut it to whatever Roger's book recommends. (1 5/16" or 1 3/8", I think. There again, I go closer to 1 1/4", and I've seen and heard Loar mandolins that have had the back removed and re-glued and have noticeably thinner rims (from wood loss during the back removal) and sound great.)

I make the heel of the neck basicly rib height + 1/2" tall at the end of neck. When bottom of the heel is flush with back and top is added the overstand is just like what John suggests. The neck projection (without f/b) at bridge position should be approx. 1/2".

Hey thanks you guys for your feedback. I think im in ok shape still, the heel did lack about 1/2 inch so i tacked on that much to the end of the heel. I know its not seamless but hey its my first mando and i figure some of the ascetics are going to be a little off. I think in Siminoffs book, the head block along with the rim assembly, is 1 5/16. Ill have to check. But its good to know that the heel doesnt have to be completely flush with the head block. You guys have calmed some of my fears. I have found however that my neck angle doesnt appear to be the 5-6 degrees recomended in the book. Its probably more like 3. Will that have any profound affect on the mando other than playability?

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Originally Posted by newbolin

...its good to know that the heel doesnt have to be completely flush with the head block.

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When you glue the back on, the end of the neck heel does have to be flush with the back of the head block. A good glue joint between the back and the neck heel is important for the strength of the neck joint.
The angle of the neck needs to be the correct angle to give you your desired bridge height. If you follow the book and use a jig like Roger outlines in the book to set the neck, you should have a good bridge height, and frankly, you don't even need to know what the actual angle is.

Oh i see, so whatever is lacking in the heel depth you take off of the block to make it flush. As long as the joined process is not all together too thin. In my edition of the book which i understand is the older one. Roger doesnt mention this point, unless i missed it. I did all the things to his plan and found that the heel wasnt flush and as i looked at his picture it WAS flush so i was a little confused. Thanks John for your input. I have read alot of your posts and i appreciate your sharing of knowledge. I hope to do the same in the future when i have the experiance.

*take off the entire rim* not JUST the block. I think is the correct statement.

I used the old version of the book on my first. I had the same problem as you have. The neck heel is short. Leave the neck block and rim alone. Extend the heel!

Sorry I'm late getting into this thread. I use Roger's neck joint method, basically. I use a jig setup to glue the neck into the body. I would recommend that you make sure the heel bottom extends beyond the "back" side of the neck block by anywhere from a 1/16th to an 1/8". After the neck is set and glued, level the heel to the rim/block height. Don't take anything off the rim or the block. Then dowel it. Angle your dowels so they split the difference between the neck and the block, at the same angle the neck is cradled into the block. Relevel everything. Then glue the back on. As John pointed out, the back being glued onto that whole joint area is critically important to reinforce the whole business. Done properly, it should never fail and I'd not be one who would want to try to take one apart.

Dale, that is one reason I use a dovetail joint.

Roger's book got a lot of us started, led us deep into the woods so to speak. For a beginner it can be pretty frustrating at times, but stick with it and don't give up. You may have to find your own way out of the woods but you will have learned some things along the way. This forum was not in existence back then, but now can be invaluable if you need help.

Thanks Wilburlin, im glad to know im not the only one! I did just that. Extended the heel.

Yikes i just realized i forgot to put the dowels in! Should i take the back off and put them in? Or is it more precautionary? Im an idiot...

What was the fit like? If the fit is very good between the sides of the neck heel and the mortise in the head block, it is probably a good enough joint for a well cared for instrument. The thing is, by "very good" I mean what most people would call "perfect"; no gaps, no saw marks, nothing but very smooth wood surfaces in complete contact with smooth wood surfaces. If the joint falls short of that standard, then yes, I think you should remove the back and insert the dowels.

I agree.

Ya, ill remove the back. Thats what happens when you work late into the night...

had a few of the same problems with my first few builds...the neck was changeing the hight of the bridge too much...i started leaveing the heel about 3/8in longer at the neck angle so i could adjust up or down to get the right overstand....it will also change the bridge hight if the angle is not consistant....i made some necks for a builder that wanted the heel angle to be 2 to 3 degrees and had to redo them because the heel overstand wasn't high enough and messed up the his bridge hight.......keith

[QUOTE=newbolin;1042042]the heel did lack about 1/2 inch so i tacked on that much to the end of the heel. I know its not seamless but hey its my first mando and i figure some of the ascetics are going to be a little off.

That's what sunburts are for ! :popcorn:

You could also just redo the neck. Despite being you're first mandolin, making a 2nd neck and doing it right is good experience.