My husband's been reading the book called Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell and sharing bits and pieces with me. The part I found most interesting focuses on a study of violinists in a German music school. The study's goal was to determine how much tallent affects world-class greatness. The findings showed that natural tallent has very little to do with it. Basically, all the world-class musicians in the study had logged over 10,000 hours of practice. The merely good musicians had logged around 8,000, and those musicians who were classified as hobbyests or music teachers had accumulated 4,000 hours. A study of pianists showed the same. The interesting thing is that there were no exceptions to the rule. No prodegies soared to the top with less than 10k hours, and no grinds plugged away without becoming great after they hit 10k. The book went on to explore studies done on hockey players, professional criminals, artists, entrepeneurs, etc. In each, the 10k minimum hours of practice was a prerequisite for becoming truely great. Neuraligists say it keeps popping up as the magic amount of time our brains seem to need to process a skill before achieving mastery. So, at my current rate of practice (which has increased dramatically thanks to this great group) I estimate world-class greatness on the mandoin around age 134. I think I'm going to settle for the second tier. But, I like the idea that my practice matters. The data makes becoming good at something seem a little more attainable. I think the study puts it all in perspective.
Consider that in our day jobs we will typically log 10,000 hours of "practice" in less than 4 years, since we usually have to spend at least 8 hours a day working at it. So to say all successful musicians have logged 10,000 hours is equivalent to saying that all successful musicians do music for a living. In order to continue being a world class musician you cannot stop practicing once you hit 10,000 hours. I have probably logged about 5,000 hours of practice, and I expect that I will log 10,000 hours sometime in the next 10 years. I doubt very much that I will be a world class player at that point, I just don't have the interest or commitment that would take. I know several guys who were absolutely awesome on the mandolin after only 3 or 4 years at it, and will always be able to kick my butt all over town no matter how hard I practice. But I will say this: every time I practice, I improve. So you never know... I usually practice for about 2 hours most days, and more whenever possible.
I think obviously the more time you spend on it,the more you will improve. But as I am a late starter I don't have any desire to be brilliant or great because I know I can't, work full time, practice most days for at least one hour, and to get as far as I have is an achievement in it's self. I aim to be better than no one, only as good as myself. There are some great players here who I couldn't possibly get near due to experience, hours registered and talent. But the main thing I would say is to enjoy it, have fun, learn a tune and murder it (totally in my case!) and get as much out of it as you can. Obviously practice makes perfect, but quality practice is more productive that quantity. Half the time I think relaxing is one of the major issues to playing well......if I feel tense, tired or frustrated, I'll put the mando down and have a cup of tea or watch telly.....and subconsciously think where it's all going wrong!!!!!
I average about 1-2 hours a day plus I busk 2-3 times a week plus at the moment I'm giving lessons once a week. As for the amount of hours I've put in to date, rough estimate would be about 990 (started playing seriously in Jan '09) so looks like I've only got 9010 more to go according to Gladwell's magic number!!!
!0,000 hours to be an expert... Hey, I'm an expert in knocking back pints...
Yep OS, the study showed that the professionals started as kids at around two hours a week, then increased to six and eight until by age twenty, they were playing around thirty hours a week. It's a lot of time to put in on something you're not getting paid for yet. Oh, and I hope I'm around to hear your stuff after another 5k hours of practice. I'm completely with you Tosh. Having a five and three year old makes practice time a little rare. But I am seeing progress and that's encouraging. I'm just fond of meaningless trivia and statistics for some reason. Jill, I hope I have as much to show after my first thousand hours . If only I could count all the hours I've logged on all the different instruments I own, oh well. Time to start practiceing and stop writing about it, right? Eddie, a man of many tallents.
I probably played about 2-4 hours per day (split between various instruments) through high school and college, and about the same for a while after that until I got my first full time job. Add being married on top of that, and my playing time starts to get limited. I try to get in about an hour or so per day when I can, but it's not consistent. I do find, though, that since my playing time has become more limited, I've been forced to become a lot more focused and efficient with my practice time. I think because of this I've improved more in the last two years than I did in the previous five because I've forced myself to use the time so much better. I have no idea what the future holds for my playing time - I'm going to be a father in the not too distant future, so I'd better enjoy it now!
I practice about an hour on weeknights, more if I can sneak it in. I do between 2 and 3 on a good weekend day. That day job sure does get in the way (although a regular paycheck is rather nice...) I'll have to figure out how many hours this puts me at so far(too tired to do such heavy duty math tonight; I'll start a spreadsheet tomorrow...) Is the original study implying that innate talent has nothing to do with it, or am I missing something? Ken P, learn some lullabies and some Led Zeppelin, they'll both come in handy! And get that kid a half-size instrument early on.
I've never really practiced. I just play. And that's probably part of my problem!! LOL
30 hours a week sounds impossible for a working adult. I practice now and then, when I have my "mandolin periods" I practice every day but no regularity, just now and then throughout the day when I have time. I don't believe that a certain amount of hours will make you a pro, it's more that you do it regularly and practice the right things. Sgarrity, I do believe that "just play" also is practice...
Congratulations Ken, that's exciting. You chose a good instrument for a new baby. In fact, that's one reason I took up the mando. My loud fiddle scared my baby when she was awake and woke her up when she was sleeping lol. Celtic dude, I think you're right about tallent. The book implies that tallent has a larger effect on ability in the beginning, but that as they studied great musicians, it never trumps practice time. Of course, tallent probably has something to do with whether you can stick with an instrument for that long. I can't imagine the 30 hours either Susie. I get restless and My mind wanders after just an hour or so.
I practice about an hour or so every day - more on weekends. Maybe at the non world class level talent makes a bigger difference? Sure seem that way to me. I'm always in a partial state of frustration because I can't yet do things that seem like they should be easy to do - but they aren't, for me anyway. Lately I just do my best just to have as much fun with it as possible. I also play in a jam on Thursday nights. Sometimes I participate in a weekly 3 hour workshop with other amateurs where we work on playing contra dance tunes - learning tunes by ear, working out arrangements, that sort of thing. I've gotten a lot out of the workshops.
When I was a kid and wasn't inclined to practise playing the violin, my parents would tell me that all the master musicians practised at least 12 hours a day, so I was resolved to never become a musician in order to maintain mental sanity. Today, I practise whenever I feel like it (not when a schedule tells me to) and thereby collect an average of 1 hour per day. I am reluctant to call it practise, though - I just start when I need a little bit of happiness and stop when I feel that more happiness would kill me.
Shaun and Susi bring up a good point. IS playing an old familiar tune truely practice? or learning a new one? what about doing scales ad nausium?? i've been 'playing' 3-4 hrs per day. when i learn a new tune, i'll repeat it over and over 'till i can play it thru without a major gaff (at least till i start the web-cam!!!). after only 5 months i have noticed that it is getting much easier when a new tune is in a familiar key and my fingers seem to hit the right fret without too much thought.
I'm sure that people with differ with me, and I do believe that scales, etc. are important (to at least know, and be able to do!)... but I believe that ANY time spent playing, is beneficial. This includes playing tunes that you can play effortlessly. I think it even includes multi-instruments. In fact, I think that playing different instruments helps your playing on ALL your instruments. Even if it's just more firmly cementing a tune in your head. Because, knowing HOW a tune goes, without thinking, transfers to all the instruments you play it on. OK, I admit that all of my instruments are mando family, and 5th tuned instruments, so the basic structure of how they fall on the instruments is the same, but each one is different. If I can hack it.... I try to play several hours a day. But, I do it multi-tasking, and some times my busy life gets in the way, and I may go a day or so, here and there, without playing at all, but that's rare. A talented musician I met quoted another gifted musician. He was asked, How many years have you been playing. The reply was, it's not how many years, it's how many hours!
Michael, I have found the best things to practice are the things I find hard to play at that point. It's fun to play an old tune, and learn a new tune, and those things should be in your daily playing too, but if your goal is to progress the key thing is to work a little each day on things that you find truly difficult.
David, you're right, it's the difficult tunes that become easier with the playing. sometimes i just don't think i'll ever be able to learn a tune, so i break it down and after a while it will seem easy. that makes the next hard one seem like less of a challenge. After about 4 months of 'total submersion' in the mandolin, i'm starting to play my guitars more and the transition is sooo much easier now. Like Barbara just added, playing different instruments helps too. (If it wasn't for that d@mn B string~!~!~!~!)
A friend of mine once offered that you can read the notes on the page and you can play the notes on the instrument, but if you can't hear the melody, you can't play the song. So that's my approach. "St. Anne's Reel" is my most recent perfect example of this. I learned it off the page and played it fine, until I got with other musicians and realized that what I was playing wasn't what they weren't playing. What I heard in my head wasn't what they were hearing. On another note, I'm finishing one year of continuous mando playing (1-2 hours a day and a weekly jam). I pretty much gave up the guitar once I began playing the mando seriously. No real loss, though, I wasn't that good on the guitar. Singing and playing is coming along better now. I can relate to the guitar/mando 'cross pollination' in terms of voice and mando. Maybe I'll strum the guitar a bit this week to just to see what happens. As for difficult tunes, 'Blackberry Blossom' has given me fits for a year. Don't know why. I can hear it in my head and can play other 'harder' songs, but 'BB' - at least the solo part - just hasn't come to me. We played it in a 15 person jam last week (just about everyone took a break), and my left hand/forearm were scorched from all of the chord changes. Onward!
Clearly I don't practice enough. That said, I probably spend less than an hour a day playing mandolin or guitar, and occasionally clawhammer style banjo. I'm officially retired, but end up spending most of my time away from home baby-sitting for small grandchildren. I often bring my mandolin, but it is hard to really practice. We live in a condo and my wife plays a grand piano - loudly, so I do most of my practicing locked in the farthest corner while she's playing. That corner happens to be the master bathroom which actually has great acoustics. I never sound better than playing in the bathroom and I get to watch my fingers move too. Maybe that's why I'm most comfortable playing while standing - that's how I practice.
"Today, I practise whenever I feel like it (not when a schedule tells me to) and thereby collect an average of 1 hour per day. I am reluctant to call it practise, though - I just start when I need a little bit of happiness and stop when I feel that more happiness would kill me." That's me in a nutshell...
Tom, actually, playing in the WC makes good sense. all the hard surfaces reflect the sound and the room is not so big as to inject much delay. Years ago, i remember some band recording a few tracks for an album in the shower room of some gym, just for the accustics. and NO, it wasn't Village People's YMCA!!!
Don't know how much I've practiced cuz I'm not done yet. ;o) Toycona, there are no less that 37 variations on St. Anne's Reel, so don't think you're not playing it right just because it doesn't sound like the other guys'. And I'm right there with on BB too. Have tried it off and on for years on various instruments and pretty much just given up. I guess I'd have to admit that I don't practice in the sense that my childhood piano teacher would have me practice. I just play. Like Michael I find find that it is "much easier when a new tune is in a familiar key and my fingers seem to hit the right fret without too much thought." I know I'm getting better because I'm now going back to tunes that I tried unsuccessfully to play six months ago and now I can play them.
Toycona, I totally agree with your opening statement. I believe you have to LEARN the tune, be able to have the tune playing in your head, in order to play it well. If you know the tune, it's not so much about the notes, but the sound. Sometimes, you can play a harmony, or a counter melody, almost on the fly, if you can hear what the tune is supposed to sound like, even just in your head. Some people take the approach of trying to play along with a fast tune, hitting whatever notes you can, winging it. Sometimes, you can eventually come up with something close. Sometimes, what you come up with, sucks! I don't take that approach. I want to learn a tune, the RIGHT WAY, play it slow till I've got it perfect. Each time I play it, as I get better, I speed it up. That way, once you get it up to speed, you are playing it right... not just some cobbled up something that almost sounds right. Also, if you are going to play with other musicians, you have to be able to tell if what you've learned (which could be 'right') you've got to hear if it goes with THEIR version. And, if it doesn't, be able to change up, on the fly, to where you are playing something that goes. A lot of the tunes we've tackled so far in this group, are tunes that my band already plays. Plays THEIR way. I can learn some really cool version from someone here in the group... but it only works if I'm playing along with the video, or by myself, because it just doesn't go with how my band plays it.
I wish I could play more. I bought the first mandolin about 2 years ago, have been more focused on trying to learn it for about 8 months. I play maybe 1-2 hours a weekday night about 4 nights a week, about the same on the weekends. Hard to hold down a full time job in the busy biotech industry and starting whittling down those 10K hours. I agree with OS (who's playing I really enjoy, by the way) that every time I practice I get better...so who knows?
I have all these same issues. Often I'll think I have a tune down pretty well the "right" way and when I get to my regular jam the other melody players know different versions - different enough so that it throws me and I can't play along. Drives me nuts. One thing I've done is to persuade folks that we should spend at least one tune every session with just one player - or maybe two max - playing the melody and rotate around the room the way bluegrass folks do. I find this is a great exercise - I learn to take it on my own once in a while and get relaxed with that which I badly need to do - and I also learn how to move in and out of melody and back up. It is a lot of fun. I agree with the comments that a certain amount of my daily time is best spent working on things that are hard for me to play. When I am disciplined about that I make the most progress. Once it gets easy for me to play I move it into a different area of my brain and I just need to run through it once in a while to keep it under my fingers.
Playing is like acting. You learn the lines so that you can forget them and concentrate on the subtlties of the role. I was in a "Red Haired Boy" jam a few months ago and this really blazing mando dude played the solo "upside down." It was remarkably similar to the standard, but far enough away to create an electrifying contrast. Clearly he knew all of the notes, but had to ability to modify the existing structure on the fly to a very cool effect. As for 'winging it', I'm not quite there yet (too much material, not enough time). Also, I have a speed breaking point too. When that circle ramps up, it's like the merry-go-round. Lately I've been really aware of my chop tone and overall rhythm. At my jam, I'm sitting near the bass player, so balancing learning breaks with playing solid back-up is a priority. Then there are the nerves...One has to be willing to risk 'sucking' in live performance to be successful at all. For me that's the best part. Throw yourself out there and see what happens! Every day poses new challenges and little surprises.
For the most part, I'm with Eddie -- for me, practicing is mainly a stress reliever; a way to relax a bit; a way to cheer myself up if I need it; etc. ..But lately I've also been more conscious of structuring my practice time, and if I know I'm going to be playing for an extended length of time (an hour or more) I try to set a few goals or make a little schedule for myself. Unfortunately I don't often have large blocks of time to practice. I usually get more than an hour of playing in each weekday, but it comes in 10 or 15 minute chunks spread throughout the day.
That is so true, Toycona. I can be playing along just fine but as soon as I start thinking about what I'm doing, it falls apart.
I'm with Shaun on this one. I never really practice, I will repeat a new tune numerous times until I can play it without screwing up too badly and sometimes I will play through a bunch of tunes I once knew, just for fun. During the week I seldom play at all but I will try to make up for it on the weekends.
That's interesting, David; I've always believed that it's better to practice a bit everyday, even if it's just for 15 minutes, than to have 1 or 2 long practices per week. I try to keep my mandolin (or, in the past, acoustic guitar) out in the open where I can always see it. If I'm going by it and have a few minutes to kill I pick it up a play some tunes, and then go along with whatever else I was doing.
Marcelyn wrote: "I can be playing along just fine but as soon as I start thinking about what I'm doing, it falls apart." I think it's kind of like carrying a full cup of coffee ~ you can't watch the cup while carrying it or you'll spill it.
Thinking about playing gets you derailed, thinking about something else gets you derailed, too. Not thinking is the key. I forgot where I read this: you can win a fortune if you can sit on a mountain top for 1 hour without thinking the word "swordfish"...
Just like golf... "Don't think about the water..."
I can't carry on a conversation, or even say a few words, when playing. But, I think it's good practice to be able to play, and follow a conversation, or watch TV, or something on the computer, and let your hands play your instrument with your brain concentrating on something else altogether. I know I've really got a tune learned when I can do that.
Try singing while playing melody... or chewing gum and f@rting...
I like the cup of coffee analogy, and I definitely relate to the TV thing. That's me every night. My wife finds it sort of amusing when I play theme music or incidental stuff to add to what we're watching. Sometimes I wonder if I'm getting stale, practicing the same songs over and over (while watching TV). Then it's time to jump off the couch and check out what you folks are putting up on the site. Also, playing along with a standard source (recorded, itunes, etc.)...that's helpful.
My average over the past 5 years has probably been something like 3 hours a week. Talent may not be the only factor but it sure helps. I also don't really "practice" I just play for fun. That is what my wife says: you have to learn to do it without thinking.
I live in a house of mandolin-haters. I do my parctising/playing when everyone is out of the house or asleep. When they are asleep (I'm a night-owl) I use a Mandobird VIII unplugged, I'm the only one who can hear it... When I'm learning a tune I'll try it in a couple of different keys and on a couple of different instruments.
Eddie... I can't imagine singing and playing.... but I think I can chew gum & F@rt! You live in a house of mandolin-haters? How sad!!!!!!! What's WRONG with them?
Oddly, i have no problem singing and playing guitar, even melody's. but the mandolin? i'm lucky if i don't drop it during a chord change. and sadly, i can empathize with Eddie, my wife says the mandolin is getting on her nerves. whenever i fret the E string above the 1st of 2nd fret she makes this sorta "tink-a-tink-a-tink" sound. maybe i should go down a fifth to mandola? and i just ordered the Traveler kit, too
As far as getting used to playing with distractions goes I highly recommend busking! On a regular basis folk stop and ask me questions while I'm in the middle of a tune, small children toddle over and try to take money OUT of my case, folk on rollerblades look like they're just about to crash into me, and every so often the odd bee or wasp decides that I'm fascinating and hovers around in a semi-menacing manner! Getting out and playing for people has definitely improved both my playing and my buzzing insect avoidance skills....
I have NO consistency in practicing, partly due to spending 3 hours a day commuting, and then having an uneven workload at work. (Basically two weeks of slack, two weeks working like a dog.) I'm thinking about moving much closer to work (ten minutes) so we'll see if having that extra time will result in more conscientious practice.
Jill, you're so good you shouldn't need to busk! Get that CD out, I'll buy a copy. As for Busking, you need a licence now to busk on the London Underground and also you have to audition to get the licence. Even if you are good enough it's no guarantee you will be granted a licence...... Mind you they would probably give me a licence not to play!!!!! And I think if you play in one of the Royal Parks you can get arrested by the Parks Police! What is the world coming to?
My wife is also not a big fan of my musical endeavors Eddie. I play in the basement or front porch. My 23yo son makes up it though. He loves to sit and listen to me play and is very encouraging. Don't worry, the little woman has other endearing qualities . . . just can't remember what they are at the moment.
I am very lucky to have a man who tolerates almost anything I do! Even, if it's nothing! Even if it's NOT housework! I'm also very lucky to get to be in a band, who gets together to practice on a regular basis. However, between my traveling, and the hard winter, we've missed a LOT of band practices!!!
Try singing while playing melody... or chewing gum and .... When I played in a group, we had a percussionist who could play bodhran in 4/4 and at the same time chew in 6/8. There were moments on stage, when I - standing in front of a microphone singing - would disconnect from my singing self, take a walk around me and think "man I can't believe that's me singing in front of an audience like a superstar". Then, suddenly, my singing self would look at me and ask "you happen to know how the next verse goes?" and I, with a start, would reply "hey YOU are supposed to know!". Then with a bang we would snap back together and work on remembering the words. The worst distraction may be found inside our own head.
Since i've retired most of the housework has fallen to me, so a few loads of laundry = a few hours practice, baking bread = more practice (no, i can't vacuum while the bread is rising! jeesh!) But when Carol comes home it's "you weren't going to Play that, were you?" So, Prudence being the better part of Valor, i retreat to my secret underground lair, like Martin. Unlike Martin, we're empty nesters so my only companion is Victor, a rescued Huskey, but only because he knows i keep a hidden stash of biscuits, HAH
Bertram, I can relate to that! It may be best to think less about playing, and just play. However, that kind of awareness is very powerful. I've been playing a bit with my eyes closed to focus my listening more. On another subject related to practicing, how important is pick direction? What I mean is, how aware are you of pick direction, and how much conscious effort do you put into maintaining it?
Bertram, I'm glad you asked that! I, for one, have pick direction be the FIRST thing I figure out when I'm learning a new tune. I believe it's crucial. I know everyone isn't like that, but I am! But, my 'conscious effort' to my pick direction comes when I'm learning the tune. Once I've learned it, I've learned the pick direction right, so there's not much more 'consciousness' of my pick direction after that. I also think being able to LISTEN to the music, more as a listener, than the player, is important. When my band is practicing, I try to consciously LISTEN to how we sound as a group, while I'm playing my part. That's why it's good to be able to play your part without your conscious brain having to think about what you are playing.....
I'm Tom.
