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mando_pete
Feb-12-2005, 6:24pm
In what year did Gibson introduce the first F-style mandolin to the market?

Curious,

Thanks,
Pete

G_Smolt
Feb-12-2005, 9:56pm
Orville was making them in 189something (6? 7?), but I don't think they were made in any volume until '03, when Gibson was Incorporated.

mando_pete
Feb-12-2005, 10:42pm
Let me refine the question ...

When did Gibson make the first F5 as we know it ?
I was at a Jam today and an older ( mid 70's ) gentlemen was present who had the absolutely best sounding F5 I've been around. Better than any Loar that I have heard. As a matter of fact it looked alot like a Loar.

I asked him what year it was made and he said 1914.

Is that possible ? Was an F5 like mandolin built by Gibson in 1914 ? Or was he simply mistaken? I couldn't wrestle the mandolin away from him to look for a serial number. He was awfully strong http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

sunburst
Feb-12-2005, 10:53pm
I think he was mistaken.
I didn't look this up just now, but my memory says the first F5 was a Loar in 1922, or I need to review my Gibson history.
Is it possible he had a "converted" F2 or F4? I'm not sure when the 2 point F body showed up. It might have been as early as 1914.

mandoJeremy
Feb-12-2005, 11:00pm
Yes, '22 as we know the Florentine model now only including the F-holes because the same shape was found on the F-4's many years before. Graduations were different but still the same shape.

Charlie Derrington
Feb-12-2005, 11:20pm
The first one we know about for sure was signed on June 1, 1922.

I have seen some blueprints dated 1920 and 1921. Of course the prints don't say F-5 they say F-X.

Charlie

ourgang
Feb-13-2005, 12:18am
If you're in Southern Ohio, the guy you saw plays mandolin with Clarence Baker and his mando is a 1914 F-4 conversion. #If it is the same guy, you are right, an absolutely great mando. I think that he lives in Washington Court House, OH.

mando_pete
Feb-13-2005, 12:31am
I PM'ed Big Joe and he confirmed that a 1914 could not be an F5.

And , yes, I am in Ohio. How would a 1914 F2 or F4 be converted to an F5 ??

Wouldn't the front and back have to be replaced ? Not doubting, just wondering.

This mando looked VERY distressed but it had AWESOME tone. It must have been at least 80 years old from the look of the tuners and the front was scratched to all hell. This was a mando that has been played, played, played.

If you know what I mean.

Pete

mando_pete
Feb-13-2005, 12:39am
Also, This dude could PLAY. My 5 year old was with me and he told me all the way home how bad I sucked compared to the old man with the ugly mandolin.

Gotta love kids !!!

I loved that mando.

ourgang
Feb-13-2005, 12:40am
I would suppose that you change the top and neck. I think that Randy Woods is noted for converting F-4's to F-5's. I know that there are folks in the cafe more informed than I who can better answer the question. I do know that a lot of them have been done.

ourgang
Feb-13-2005, 12:47am
Also as I recall, the mandolin had the double flower pot inlay in the head stock and Handel buttons. I jammed with this guy at Round Eyes Park at a festival last summer. A great player. The banjo player, who is also in the Baker band was playing an RB-7 or such as that, the one with the funny looking head-stock, also a great player.

mando_pete
Feb-13-2005, 1:22am
I believe the inlay was double flowerpot.

I would be curious to hear from others how the F2 / F4 conversion was done.

This was absolutely the best Gibson mando I ever heard.

Thanks for the responses everyone, this has been very interesting.

Pete

Michael Lewis
Feb-13-2005, 2:42am
It must have been about 18 years ago that Cliff Sargent showed me an F5 without a truss rod. It had the full double flower pot inlay of an F4, yet had 'f' holes and a dated label from 1921. As far as I could tell it was absolutely original, it certainly had not been worked on by Cliff. It was OK, but not a great sounding instrument. Cliff said that Jack Tottle also had one like it. I think he said Jack Tottle, but there is a fellow in the Bay Area named Jack Tuttle that might be the one he meant. (Jack Tuttle is very well schooled in the world of bluegrass, and teaches several aspects of it in seminars and classes, often through Gryphon Instruments in Palo Alto.) With his Arkansas manner of speech I couldn't be absolutely sure.

bflat
Feb-13-2005, 8:14am
you see them for sale regularly. there's a gil conversion a vintage instruments (cal)that's been there for at least a couple years. top and neck redone. great looking instrument but 11K? a saw another on the net recently.MC classified?

sunburst
Feb-13-2005, 9:18am
I would be curious to hear from others how the F2 / F4 conversion was done.
It's like ourgang said, you remove the top and neck, make a new top and neck to F5 specs (more or less) and glue the whole thing back together with requisite finish work.

I saw a guy in a jam in Kentucky (somewhere near Lexington) with a converted F4. It was the sound that got my attention. One of the best chops I've heard, so I looked to see what he was playing. Part of it looked right (Gibson) and part of it didn't, so I asked him what it was.
I don't remember the name of the guy he told me converted it, but it wasn't Randy Wood, or any of the well known names.

Fretbear
Feb-13-2005, 9:38am
"Bluegrass Mandolin" author Jack Tottle's blonde F-5 mandolin as seen on his "Backroad Mandolin" album is a converted F-4.

gdafoe
Feb-13-2005, 11:02am
I don't mean to hijack the thread here but being rather new to the site, I have a question. I play with a friend once in a while that has a Gibson F-12. (I can't seem to find what the different F and A numbers signify) But anyway, he doen't know much about the instrument except he picked it up at a qarage sale a few years ago. I asked him when it was built he had no idea. On the tag inside it says F-12 Gibson, A31549, Then there is another number that starts with "I" or "T" not sure. I think it is I7429 4. Is there a way to find out when this was built and what it is worth?

By the way my wife bought a MidMo M-2W from the classifieds here for me for Christmas. Nice instrument.

flatthead
Feb-13-2005, 11:57pm
I think Randy Wood has done several of these conversions. Don Lewis, whose father is Ralph Lewis who played with Bill Monroe plays a converted F4. I seem to recall him refering to it as "The Secret Weapon" or some such thing...javascript: InstaSmilie()
javascript: InstaSmilie()

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-14-2005, 10:06am
Every reasonably executed F-4 conversion I have seen sounds really really good...and has a Gibson tone to it.

This places a lot of emphasis on the construction of the sides and back...and does indicate that they contribute significantly to the tonal characteristics.

PaulD
Feb-14-2005, 2:23pm
I'm curious about another aspect of this discussion. In the "should I refinish my A Jr." thread many people were up in arms about "disrespecting" the history of an old instrument by refinishing it. How do you folks feel about an F4-F5 conversion? This is obviously much more drastic than refinishing, but it sounds like it results in a very nice instrument if executed properly.

I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just curious what people think. Frankly I would love an old F4... I'll probably buy one as the budget permits.

Paul Doubek

Tom C
Feb-14-2005, 2:39pm
I do not think people would do that conversion today as F4s have become more popular,collectible, and expensive. Those conversions were done when there were few mandolin luthiers. Now there are a lot and really no reason to convert.

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-14-2005, 2:44pm
Tom is exactly right. Most of these conversions were done years ago when if the had a scroll and f-holes..it was an original Gibson F-5...there was no alternative or substitute.

I could possibly endorse a conversion for a really trashed top on an F4, but even that would require some thought.

PaulD
Feb-14-2005, 5:05pm
That makes sense. Like I said... I would love one, and they are such georgeous instruments I hate thinking of them disappearing by being "upgraded!"

Paul Doubek

mando_pete
Feb-14-2005, 11:55pm
Anybody have a guess as to what a converted F4 might be worth ?

The one I heard, that started this thread, was excellent in reproducing the Loar tone.

johnnymando
Feb-15-2005, 4:20pm
I bought a trashed 28F2 last year.It had what looked like thin pieces of spruce in star,square and circle designs with a thick slathering of polyurethane on top.I had a well known luthier(under his protest)install one of his F5 tops.He carved it to elevate the fretboard,installed a new nut,loar style bridge and new tailpiece.We kept the orig.neck so its like an F12 with a short scale.
It sounds great and is a real conversation piece.
The old top hangs on the wall....

Greg H.
Feb-15-2005, 10:46pm
Here's (http://www.vintageinstruments.com/photos/inst15/gibchristful.jpg) the one that for sale at Player's Vintage Instruments in California. The conversion was done by Gilchrist. It was a 1920 F4, and at $11,500 it seems a good buy (have to play it first of course).