Variations On The "Single" Mic Approach

[mandopete]

I went to see John Reischman and The Jaybirds at the Tractor Tavern here in Seattle a couple of weeks ago and I was very impressed with their sound. #In the past John has used several variations of the "single" mic for sound reinforcement.

At this show they were using an AT-4033 for all of the vocal work and individual mics (not sure what types) for the instruments. #Any singing was done directly into AT-4033, but all of the breaks were done on the individual mic's. #The bass was on a wrap.

The last time I saw The Del McCoury band, I think they were using two AT-4033's. #I know that Hot Rize will use two "wing" mics on either side of the main mic.

So I'm curious to hear how many of you are using this hybrid approach within the context of a bluegrass band instrumentation and how effective it may be.

[Spruce]

Jim Nunally has put a lot of thought and effort into cracking this nut, so I would give a lot of credence to the stage plots that he comes up with for the Jaybirds...

They were using 2 AKG 451s at head-level for vocals/instruments a year or so ago...

How it's gonna sounds is only part of the problem, though...

Does the band want to work on getting the choreography right for a true one-mic setup ala Del?? #(Well, that's 2 mics, no?)
It does take a lot of practice to get that problem solved...

If you want to see an incredible show around one mic, check out the Cherryholmes.

There are maybe 6-7 people on stage, and the way they work the mic is pure magic. #
They make the McCourys look like they're loitering, BION...

[mandopete]

For this discussion, let's leave the aesthetics of the "choreography" out of the discussion. #I'm really more interested in the notion of a balance of sound between the vocals and instruments. #One thought that comes to mind with John's set up is that the singers are always close together which may add to their ability to hear each other. #Conversely the instruments were relatively far apart. #They don't use any monitors, so they must remain close enough to hear each other.

What I thought was especially interesting was that when John or Jim went up to AT-4033 to sing, their instruments did not totally drop off. #I assume that this is due to the fact the AT-4033 must have a large cardiod pattern, correct?

This is fairly similar to what I saw Hot Rize doing last year at Wintergrass. #They would sing into the main mic and take breaks on one of the wings. #The Nashville Bluegrass band did this years ago at Darrington and as I recall it drove the sound-man nuts. #I believe that these extra mic's cause some issues such as phase cancellation or even feedback - any thoughts on those challenges?

[Spruce]

"What I thought was especially interesting was that when John or Jim went up to AT-4033 to sing, their instruments did not totally drop off. #I assume that this is due to the fact the AT-4033 must have a large cardiod pattern, correct?"

Yep...
The McCourys sound great through 1 or 2 4033s, and they don't even mic the bass...
It sounds great in the house, and it sounds great on tape...
Very balanced...

"The Nashville Bluegrass band did this years ago at Darrington and as I recall it drove the sound-man nuts." #

It's my experience that anything that anyone does at Darrington drives the soundman nuts... # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

"#I believe that these extra mic's cause some issues such as phase cancellation or even feedback - any thoughts on those challenges? "

Well, the more mics you put onstage, especially LDCs, the more phase issues become a potential problem...
If you want to hear a total mess created by multiple LDCs onstage ($35K worth!!), check out the "Down From the Mountain" CD or DVD...

Those 5-6 Neumann U47s are a phasing nightmare, and SM58s would have done a better job...
But they sure looked good!

As far as feedback goes, it's not an issue with these condenser mic'ing techniques as the monitors are usually turned off...

[mandroid]

Local 5 pc uses 2 cardoid LD mics,[AKG C3000, I think] on same stand. #one upside down, up/down pattern and left/right make a fair pickup of instruments and vocals, with height of pair somewhat in between. Cardoid patterns are side-by-side, for an adjustable sensitivity spread.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Fuzzyway]

Pete, Spruce,

When the Jaybirds played in Stayton, Oregon a couple of months ago..just before they went to Seattle, Jim was trying out a couple of matched Oktava 012's with omni capsules. They didn't use the LDC that night. It sounded pretty good. Maybe that is what they were using up in Seattle.

Ken Cartwright has gone to a AT-4047 with Audix SC1 (hypercardiod) wing mics. Those little SC1's kick serious tail.

Fuzzy

[mandopete]

They didn't use the LDC that night. #It sounded pretty good. #Maybe that is what they were using up in Seattle.
It was definately an AT-4033. #I have seen them use two smaller mic's in the past. #This was a completely new set up as far as I could tell. #I heartily agree with Spruce that any solution from Jim Nunally most likely has some serious merit. They even left a copy of their stage plot behind and I snatched it up to see what exactly they were using.

[mandopete]

Definately an AT-4033...

[mandopete]

Not sure what the instrument mic's are...

[TonyP]

We've been using a 4033 and 3 Oktava 012's for years now and recording the mix right off the board and it sounds studio quality, sound wise. The 012's are for instruments, mando guitar, banjo. Our bass player is also the lead singer and the 4033 picks up his bass so well I sometimes have to use the roll off, besides making sure it's nice and high and not pointed at the bass. Vocals are a pure joy because we hear each other realtime. Besides not having to eat the mic and it picks the instruments great when we come in for harmonys. I'm glad to see that we 4033 fans have a heavyweight like Mr. Nunally backing us up http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Pete Martin]

The comment on the sound at Darrington makes me laugh. ANY setup baffles that sound man ("We've been ROBBED again!!"). http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[Pete Martin]

I prefer the idea of playing into individual mics for instruments and singing into one mic. My fav small diaphram mic for mando is a Shure KSM137, like it cause it has 2 bass roll off patterns I can use if needed.

[mandopete]

Sounds like we're hearing a lot of good things about this (John Reischman) set-up. #For my own purposes I am moving in this direction for my own group. #Currently I have a single AT-4033 that we'll use for vocals. #I have two Peavey PVM-480 condenser mic's for instruments, but I will need a third. #The Oktava MC-012's look to be a good fit and at about the right price point. #I'm still going to run the bass on a wrap, most likely an SM58.

One of the other key elements I noticed to JR's set-up was the formation of a semi-circle with the vocal mic placed at the back of the arch. #I assume that this was done to allow everyone to hear each other. #This presents a bit of challenge in small venues where space is at a premium. #I'm looking into small profile mic stands to reduce the amount of space needed.

[mandopete]

My fav small diaphram mic for mando is a Shure KSM137, like it cause it has 2 bass roll off patterns I can use if needed.
Looking at the specs for this mic it is described as a "large diaphram" condenser mic. Are you using one of these for live sound reinforcement?

[Spruce]

"I'm still going to run the bass on a wrap, most likely an SM58."

If you ever run across an EV408 for not a lot of money (75 bucks or so), grab it...
It's the egg-shaped EV that is mounted on a pivot, and ideal for wrapping and mounting on a string bass...
Great sounding mic...

By the way, I saw the Jaybirds in one of those showcase rooms at IBMA last year...
Small hotel room with drapes and carpets, no mics, and "free" beer...
Needless to say, it sounded glorious...

[mandopete]

Is the EV408 a model that is not produced anymore? #Couldn't find much about it online. #Found the EV ND468, is that similar?

[Spruce]

Yeah, that's the mic that replaced the 408...

The nice thing about these mics is that you can wrap it and tilt the head so that you get the bass fully on-axis...

If you wrap a 57 or 58 and secure it to the bass, most likely you are going to get an off-axis image of the bass...
Not a good thing...

[mandopete]

The nice thing about these mics is that you can wrap it and tilt the head so that you get the bass fully on-axis...
Translation...point the mic (egg) at the bass?

[TonyP]

Pete, you should check out the Oktava. I also have a Peavey 480 and that was my mando mic for years until I got hold of the Oktava. The Peavey now sounds kinda muddy to me. Just be sure the one you try out, at like Guitar Center, is the one you take home, if you do http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif The quality is I've been told kinda spotty. The first one I got I didn't notice the saleskid gave me a "new" one. I didn't try it until our next gig and it was dead. Took it back and got a new one no prob, but it was a hassle. That is one good thing about Guitar Center.

[mandopete]

Tony - thanks for the advice. #I was not aware that Guitar Center carried the Oktava microphone. #The only place I could find it on the web was a placed called the Sound Room. #Which capsule are you using?

I am also curious about how you tested the microphone in the store. Did you plug it into a sound system and try it with an instrument?

I haven't been overly impressed with the Peavey microphone and have been comptemplating a change for awhile now - any opinion on the Audix SC1 for string instruments (mando, banjo, guitar)?

[TonyP]

Pete-Guitar Center was doing a deal after I got my Oktava, 2 for $100 ! I took the Peavy and had them set it up next to the Oktava in the recording room, not the PA room. Way quieter. Did an A-B(with mando) through their board and some KRK monitors. I had my son, Mr. Dogears, go with me too to confirm what I thought I heard. I would much rather use recording caliber board/monitors to test than PA equipment. Also I never see anybody in there because it's so quiet and impressive I guess. A couple of the other saleskids came in just because they couldn't get Peavy and were curious about the mando also. The Oktava come standard with the cardiod capsule in a little funky looking case http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif My 480 is hyper-cardiod. I think that's why it has such outrageous "proximity effect". I wouldn't get rid of my 480 because it comes in handy and you can never have too many mics.
I've not tried the Audix, I know David Grisman endorses/uses their products. I would think they are worth a look.
For years I've taken somebody with me I can trust when I do any deal. It keeps me from being intimidated by the salesfolk and gives me an instant second opinion.

[mandopete]

Tony,

Thanks for the advice (again). #I'm actually off to GC today to investigate some mic stands and I will inquire about the Oktava mic's. #I may opt to try it through a sound system as that is how I intend to use it. #Never realized that the Peavey 480 was a "hyper-cardiod" pattern, but I would agree with respect to the proximity effect, hence the search for another mic.

...Mr. Dogears?

[Spruce]

"Translation...point the mic (egg) at the bass? "

Yep...
I've only mounted a couple 408s on string basses, but both times it was a snap....
The "egg" fits between a couple strings and points towards the top of the bass which is ideal...

[TonyP]

Pete- Mr.Dogears is my son. His ears are what mine used to be before old age and too many industrial noise level jobs! Good luck on the PA room. The times I've gone in there its usually being used by some heavy hitter and we couldn't talk much less try a sound test. You know we just had a personel change and lost a guitar and picked up a banjo. I'm really thinking the 480 might really sound good for a banjo, take some of the "edge" off.

[TonyP]

You know I don't want to hijack your thread, but this is PA related. Ever heard of SmaartLive? It's the program that all the "bigboys" in sound use to test/monitor the sound system. My old highschool buddy did pro sound for a living and was telling about it and on my last visit he ran me through the "for dummy's" version. You need a lap top and a Behringer omni mic(don't remember the #, but it's very accurate and only $40!) and portable mic pre(he uses an M-Audio).
You setup with the mic/laptop out in the "audience" and use the program to send either test signals or you can use regular cd's and the program compares, in real time what's going in(cd or test sigs) and what the mic "hears". Since I don't have a laptop etc. this is something for the future, hopefully. You can "see" and fix all kinds of problems with this, eq/feedback, phase etc. My buddy does all this crazy stuff like "time align" these huge systems you see in large venue's to get all the speakers in phase. Explains why sometimes everything sounds like mud and sometimes it's crystal clear. He was telling me some of the rack units now are setup to interface and can be controlled from the laptop/program. I know we all have our hands full with just a head, a couple of mics and some speakers, but boy wouldn't be nice to instead of "ringing" a room and guessing, to analyze and be done. Another great feature is leave it going in eq/monitor mode that can mimic your eq sliders and it remember's/shows you where your feedback is/was happening and you just turn down that slider. For me this is the next step/leap.

[Mando Medic]

Pete,
I have 4 of the Audix SC1's and used them again last night for the Montana Mandolin Society show. This is the 3rd time I have used them on mandolin gigs and I will say they are the best mando and fiddle microphones I have ever used. They are a super hyper cardiode condenser and as you might know, you can change the capsuls to omni cardiode. They have a very open sound, and I have been running them almost flat. Tons of headroom and clean. I will be using these for future Tasting recordings too.

[mandopete]

Ken,

Can you elaborate on the difference between "hyper-cardiod" and "omni cardiod" as I'm not familar with those terms. I understand the cardiod pattern as opposed to omni and why you would use one over the other. The SC1 seems to be very competetively priced as well.

[Mando Medic]

The hyper is a very tight or narrow pattern that rejects off axis. You need to really aim the mic right where you need it, more of a shotgun mic effect. Though last night we split the mic for one mandolin and a violin by setting the mic back 4 feet from the center of both players and it picked them up equally. The omni has a broader or wider path of hearing. Kenc

[Spruce]

"Can you elaborate on the difference between "hyper-cardiod" and "omni cardiod" as I'm not familar with those terms."

Hyper-cardiod is a well-oiled term, but "omni cardiod" is news to me...

It actually could be a useful term to describe some omni mics that do not truly act as the omni they are advertised to be, but instead act more like a cardiod with a super wide pattern...
The EV 635a comes to mind...

[Pete Martin]

Quote (petimar @ Feb. 02 2005, 10:44)
My fav small diaphram mic for mando is a Shure KSM137, like it cause it has 2 bass roll off patterns I can use if needed.

Looking at the specs for this mic it is described as a "large diaphram" condenser mic. Are you using one of these for live sound reinforcement?


Pete, Shure has two lines in theier KSM series. The 27, 32 and 44 are large diaphram mics, the 109, 137 and 141 are small diaphram mics.

You can look at their differences here:

http://www.shure.com/microphones/recording/ksm/default.asp

One thing I've heard a lot on pro audio groups: The Octava are very inconstistent from mic to mic, espeially the one sold through big stores like Guitar Center, etc. Listen to the exact mic before you buy it, try out a number and pick the best. You can get them at places like the Sound Room or mercenry Audio for a bit more, but they reject the bad ones and sell only the best sounding ones.

Ken, I'm very interested to hear more abou the Audix SC1's. How much are they steet price. Do they have much proximity effect when you mic right at the F hole? Do they have any roll off and if so, what? Thanks!

[mandopete]

Pete,

Thanks for the info. I went by Guitar Center in Kirkland and they did have one Oktava, but I didn't have a chance to test it out. I'm going to try it along side the Peavey and see what the difference may be.

[mandopete]

Hyper-cardiod is a well-oiled term...
Meaning an more focused cardiod pattern? #I would imagine this to be useful in tight mike patterns where you dont want to pick up other signals (from off the mic)

Apologies to Scott Tichenor, we seem to be turning this in the Microphone Cafe....it's all for a good purpose though!

[Spruce]

"Meaning an more focused cardiod pattern? #I would imagine this to be useful in tight mike patterns where you dont want to pick up other signals (from off the mic)"

Yep...
Like a live recording situation....

"Apologies to Scott Tichenor, we seem to be turning this in the Microphone Cafe....it's all for a good purpose though! "

You bet...
Selecting the "right" mic to use on the mandolin is a facinating topic, and one that we will never get to the bottom of....

Mandolins vary in tone probably more than any other instrument I can think of, and getting the mic "right" is a huge part of getting your instrument to sound the way you want it to on tape...

For those of you hitting the recording studio, take the 5 seconds it takes to lean over and jot down the make and model of the mic you're using, and stick that piece of paper in your case somewhere...

It's very valuable information down the line to know what mic you were playing into, so that you can give this info to the next recording engineer who is contemplating which mic to use on your instrument....

It's amazing, after spending 20K on an instrument to get a certain sound, how many players don't have a clue what captured the sound of that mandolin on their CD...
It's a good thing to know for future recording projects, and for selecting which mics to use and which to avoid...

[AW Meyer]

Interesting! When John and the Jaybirds played in Vancouver a couple of weeks ago, they used only one mic (I don't know what it was). The venue was a 400-seat theatre, and the sound was sublime. All the solos came through just fine. I think it hs a lot to do with how the musicians make the music.

[mike_c]

if you buy your oktava from "the sound room" #at oktava.com..they cost a little more,,but they are individually tested and rejected if they don't come up to their standards..they even sell matched pairs

[mandopete]

Well, the folks at Guitar Center confirmed our suspicions releative to quality control for Oktava microphone. Since the store I went to only had one in stock I had no way to compare it. They did not carry the Audix SC1, so I did not get a chance to check that one out.

They did have the new Neumann TLM 127, which got a rave review in Guitar Player magazine. A little out of my price range though...

So I'm back to square 1 - looking for a small condenser mic in the $100 - $150 range for live sound. Any other suggestions?

[Spruce]

AT Pro 37R...

[softshell]

We tried the single mic approach once and ended up having horrible feedback problems. We went back to plugging in, it doesn't sound as good as I've heard other groups, but the feedback is cut. Any tips? We are thinking about trying it again.

[glauber]

Do you use stage monitors? Maybe try without them? Or try a Behringer DSP110 (http://www.behringer.com/DSP110/index.cfm?lang=ENG) or two, in your monitor signal. I've used one of these things in tricky miking situations, and they work like magic.

[Mando Medic]

It's been my experience that groups that have feedback problems are usually up against the following odds. They don't know how to EQ the system, are also using monitors, are not working the microphone close enough, have the speakers placed too close to the microphone, have the microphone at the wrong height, all of the above. Using a one mich takes a lot of work and a lot of determination to get the right advise. Kenc

[Spruce]

Or they are trying out a LDC at band practice at home and amplifing it in a small room...

[AW Meyer]

John R & the Jaybirds were not using momitors.[B]

[softshell]

Thanks, I think the monitors must have been the problem. How well does the single mic approach work in a loud bar?

[Mando Medic]

Not well enough on it's own. I find that when I do sound or my group plays in a noisy environment, then I find it necessary to add a satelite mich for the instruments. Something like a AKG C1000s, or even a SM57. I'd locate the auxilliary mich off to the left or the right of the large diaphram mich. Kill the monitors and turn up the front, and get as much distance on the mains from the stage as you can get. Kenc

[Spruce]

"How well does the single mic approach work in a loud bar?"

For this situation, I like a Tele and a stack of Marshalls on 11...

[piiman]

It's been said that feedback problems are due to not being EQ'd properly. I am one who has those problems and I don't know how to EQ properly. Can someone enlighten me?

[Don Grieser]

Don't know if it's right, but here's how I do it. I slowly turn up the volume till the system begins to feedback. Then I back it off slightly so it's just about ready to feedback. If you begin to boost one slider at a time on your 31 band EQ, you will find the ones that want to feedback. You will also begin to know what the different frequencies sound like (A=440, etc.). Once you have the major offenders pulled down (try to take out as little as possible), turn the system volume up till it reaches feedback level again. If you pull too much out with your EQ, you'll soon get some sonic weirdness in your sound. Best then to try to move the mains, try a different position for your mic, etc. Hope that helps--feel free to correct me if you've got a better method of doing this. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[TonyP]

Don, that's how the guy in the band I used to be in did it. It worked ok, but there was always tweeks to be done during and it seemed like the sound was never that good, i think from the eq overkill. I've been looking at this:
Berhinger eq (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/g=live/s=signalproc/search/detail/base_pid/182487/)
and I've not used it but it sure seems like it would help with not only finding the feedback(it has a special curcuit the detects the feedback and makes that slider light up so you know which freq fedback !) plus 2 separate eqs AND a sub out, all for $130. What we have been doing too is recording out gigs on MD straight out of the board. So I want to try playing us back through the PA and eq'ing the feedback out with "us" going through it instead of "ringing" the room. Should work. We don't play bars but boy those coffee machines in the coffee houses we play are LOUD. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[mandopete]

We don't play bars but boy those coffee machines in the coffee houses we play are LOUD. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Man, ain't that the truth! Up here in the Pacific Northwest you can't hardly play anywhere with out one of them dang espresso buzz-saws going off right in the middle of your set!

I've often wondered about these feedback supression devices and EQ in general. For the most part I always tried to run everything as "flat" as possible without mucking about too much with EQ. For my part, I'm trying to keep our sound system as simple as possible as we don't play any large venues (we'll leave that to the pros from Dover).

[TonyP]

Well that's us too Pete, smaller/simpler is better in my book too. All our stuff can fit in the back of a small PU and I don't want to get any bigger or more complicated, but this Berhinger seems like a Swiss Army knife to me. One thing that does a lot of useful things. The eq that helps get rid of feedback and shows you where it is and fits in our little bitty rack. I also like the idea of idea of a powered sub. We have little Yamaha speakers that sound great, are small, and can put out a ton of sound but can't really handle the "bottom" at high volume(like outside at a street fair) just because they are small. If you take all that low freq out and just let them do the mids and hi's they sound amazing and can get LOUD. So instead of like investing in bigger cabs, amp, stands etc, just add a sub. The other very useful thing I learned from my sound buddy is how much "backwash" a cabinet has, has A LOT to do with feedback. Backwash is how much the cabinet "radiates" the sound out the back and sides, and that goes onto your stage and into your mics causing feedback. These little Yamaha's can be very close and no feedback. We used some big ol Peavy's and we couldn't get those things far enough away not to feed back! We also have some wireless in ear monitors that were cheap and I won't play without them anymore. I feel like all these factors make for a simpler setup. Less mics, small efficient system, wireless monitors. Also I'm sure the Audix is a great mic, but at $400 or so a pop, they are out of my range. I'll stick with the Okatava for a while yet http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Mando Medic]

I agree about smaller and less. I use the Mackie SR450 powered speakers. I have several pair and sometimes fold one back from the front to act as a monitor. I have a small 6 channel Nady board that I use for small venues. I put a MXR 8 channel EQ in line from the board and that seems to work well. One AT 4047 one or two satellite C1000's for solos, a SM58 wireless on the bass mounted on a clamp that firmly but gently grips the mich and holds it over the treble F hole and we're ready to go.
I have on my large A system a Sabine FBX1200 feedback controller that has a stereo 31 band EQ, with compression, delay FBX and gain controls. I won't do sound without it. The Behringer systems seem to creep and lock up frequencies that haven't been specified. I don't care for that feature. Kenc

[TonyP]

Good info Ken, can you explain the "creep and lock up" ? I've heard the SR450's and they are wonderful, wish I could afford something like that http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif It's hard to know what will work without a review and this is a good place for it instead of trying to glean info from the stuff being used in your usual "rock" situation. I thought the Behringer I linked didn't eliminate the feedback, it just showed what freq it was by lighting up the offending freq/slider so you could manually turn it down. Personally I would trust that better than and "auto" setup, being the "black box" skeptic that I am:laugh:

[Mando Medic]

I wish I could recall the model number of that Behringer a friend of mine bought for his system. He is Mr. Frugal, and that's fine, but on a job he was doing that I happend to be at I said the sound seemed really choked. I looked at his EQ and it seemed normal, but the problem was his Behringer auto feed back system would hear a long not, like on a fiddle and it didn't discriminate between long note and feedback, so it would cut it. He forgot the lock the filters on the system. So that is the creep up that I was talking about. When you use either the Behringer or the Sabine, which I do recomend, you have to set the filters for depth and seek. After you ring out the system, you then press lock and before you ring it out you choose how much of the individual offensive frequency you want to notch or cut. I usually go with the smallest amount available. That's not a difficult choice because it's either 1/8 or 1/10 of a notch. To proceed, you set the tone and volume of all the microphones, turn off the monitors, turn up the volume until the system rings, push the volume up another 10 or 15%, you will hear the system catch the feedback that is ringing. You then push the volume up to the next problem feedback and continue the process untill you have used all but one of the usually 8 to 10 filters available. Then you hit lock and that sets the system. With a large diaphram microphone, you gain an additional 8 to 10 db. of head room and that is a significant amount. Kenc

[mandopete]

Ken, Tony,

Thanks for the continued input on this subject!

For my own purposes I'm using two JBL powered EON 15" speakers and a Behringer 1604A mixer. #The speakers have more than enough power and bass response for any purpose I would encounter. #I've never heard the comment about "backwash", but it makes sense. #Most venues we play in are small, coffee-house situations. #I generally try to get the speakers as far out in front as I can and then point them away from the mic's. #Feedback has not been too much of an issue as we really don't require too much volume.

So here's another thing I have been considering. #We use the AT4033 for the vocals with sometimes as many as three or four people singing at a time. #At rehearsal last week we looked at the logistics of this and with those singers playing bass, guitar and banjo the only position for two of those was pretty far off axis (almost 90 degrees). #What are your thoughts about the AT4033 with respect to it's ability to handle this and has anyone ever considered an omni-directional mic for theis purpose?

Bruce: Omni-Cardiod could be a useful term to describe some omni mics that do not truly act as the omni they are advertised to be, but instead act more like a cardiod with a super wide pattern...The EV 635a comes to mind

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

Just a small note. Different LDCs are going to function in slightly different ways. I have been trying to sample as many as possible, but it's a slow process. We currently use an AKG C414B which allows for those further back, or to the side, to still be picked up, with reasonable accuracy, without maxing the gain. That's what it does wheras our Neuman TLM 103 is #a much subtler mic, and it's not as forgiving. One step back or to the side too much and you're out of the mix completely. No "transition" zone at all. #This is using a cardiod pattern on both, which seems very similar on both mics. There are usually three, but sometimes four or five of us, and we seem to all be able to stay within that pattern easily, even with some movement.
I can't imagine omni would help when a band was spread out more, or larger (but I may be wrong), what with it's obvious difficulties in managing the sound. I guess it's not a good comparison, but what does Kentucky Thunder do at a smaller gig? That's a pretty big band.
Just a while back this winter I heard a 9 piece electric band (including four horns) use an omni for the horn section and I literally was driven from the room after the first 15 minutes. I figured it the sound man hadn't tamed it by then, he never was going to. # Frightening experience.
Thanks to you all for the good discussion, ideas, methodology, and observations in this thread. #

rasa

[TonyP]

That's what I like about the 4033, is it's sensitivity and it's lack of "coloration" in it's side address. My first experience with a single mic was with a real old, turns out very rare AKG 414. It was incredible but nerve racking at the same time because if it ever fell over, that's all she wrote. We have always had the 4033 and 3 wings and were trying to figure out how to do it like Del and the boys do it, with just one or 2 mics. So we ran the 4033 straight into the recorder one nite, no monitors, just play, guessing where to stand. Just to see how it would sound. It blew everybody away. We weren't quite 90deg off axes from it but close and you could hear the sides the same. That laid the whole debate to rest and it also showed who really was the loudest(the banjo). There's no way I would ever consider an omni on stage with a sound system in the room with us, it would just be feedback city for the stuff we do. I generally know right away if it's going to feedback and it always is on some kind of inset into a wall type of stage. Like has been said, get the speakers as far away as possible, but also get the 4033 out of the "hole" and to the front of the stage and it would get rid of it too(another reason for no floor monitors). It's anti intuitive how it works out after years of dealing with the usual SM 57 and 58's, where you had to "eat" them. We stand back and let the mic do the work and having to make space for the instrumentalist works out because everybody else has to back off the mic to give him room, automixing. We also don't like to play real loud. There's all kinds of little things that make it work that will mess with ego's though. Like if you watch Del, the banjo when he singing is behind him, in his mic shadow, because they are so loud that's the only way to get it to balance out. For me, it's the only way to play and everytime there is somebody else after us they want to use our mic setup, but they seldom know how to work these kinds of mics. It's a totally different world, your talking studio mics instead of PA mics. Most people are overplaying/too close and just can't get used to it.

[TonyP]

Good explanation Ken. You have obviously been doing this for a while! Most of the time I was usually a grunt, not a knob twister, but I paid attention. The one thing we've not got into is just what you are describing, running a sophisticated anti feedback box. Mostly just do the down and dirty ring it, little eq tweek, like Don, and go. Like Pete, we do small stuff and if it's bigger then there's a soundman, which can be good or bad, but most times I've got to live with it no matter http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I don't think Ricky Skaggs would ever do a small gig just for the fact that there are so many in his band, it just costs too much to feed all them fellars!

[mandopete]

Good input Tony! (I think your tag line about "engineers" is especially appropriate for this discussion http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif )

Had a gig last night and everything worked pretty much as expected. #Small venue and we were forced into pretty much of a U-shape to fit. #No problems with feedback as we really didn't need too much volume. #We recorded the whole shebang to a mini-disc so I should get a chance to review what really happened. #I had modified some mic stands using a small based kick-drum stand with a long boom arm at almost a vertical position for the instrument condenser mics - that worked really well considering the small amout of real estate.

I found the vocalists wanted to abandon the 90-degree approach to the 4033 in the trio's and I suspect the recoroding will reveal that the mix was not as good as if they had been a bit closer to the mic. #We also had some real challenges with the guitar mic'ing. #What do you recommend there? #I put the mic up high and pointed it just above the soundhole (along down the neck). #Whenever the guitar moved more to the mic pointing at the soundhole we got a pretty goo mid-range rumble!

What's nice is that we have 8 gigs lined up in the next two months so we should have a good chance to really dial this puppy in.

[TonyP]

Well I appreciate your input Pete, along with Kens and everybody else's. Since I first saw Hot Rise years ago I knew there was a way to get vocals really tight(like in practice) and one mic for vocals was key. Also the Bluegrass Album band used to do a modified setup like this. It was a cluster of mics setup close together so they could hear themselves live as they sang. To me, our focus is vocals and the instruments are to support that. I should note I'm not the lead vocal. I just know what audiences seem to like/identify with and it's vocals. They get bored with fiddle tunes and BG tunes. To me if your ending up with folks 90deg to the mic your too tight on it and need to move the whole u back. Our lead vocal is the bass so he's about 2'Oclock from the mic, with the guitar at 11 and me at about 9, with the banjo BEHIND the bass with everybody al least 18"or more off the mic. I think recording is the only way to know what's REALLY going on because everybody is deaf to and "behind" their instrument, me included. Everybody else's instrument is in their face so your always fighting what each person hears, that's where our cheapo wireless monitors have been good as gold. Also the bass player is a guitar player and has always sang with a guitar so he "keys" to the guitar, so having the guitar right next to him is perfect. Also the guitar player is the tenor and the quietest singer/player so having him the most direct in front of the mic works out for us. So we all let the vocal in close of the u shape for his lead,, then he backs up a little for chorus, and pegheads out of the U we lean in for the chorus, with the guitar/tenor a little closer. There is also a thing, some folks go flat/sharp if they sing too hard(like our guitar player) so they need to be a little closer or if they are the opposite, have to sing hard to get the note, put them a little further back. And then for like a guitar break, bass step back, mando a step back, and the guitar in about a foot away, not with the sound hole pointing to the mic, and he can hear us keeping rhythm behind him, but he's closest so he can hear and the audience can hear him. The banjo can just get from behind the bass and play over his shoulder and be heard great. The only prob is the banjo thinks he can't be heard most of the time and is cranking away behind the bass during vocals and can throw everybody off. It's not perfect, and subject to change but it's going to be the instruments not the vocals that will change. I am going to push to go for the setup Kens got because 8 to 10db is A LOT of headroom!

[TonyP]

BTW Pete, I'd love to hear your impression of the live MD of the gig.

[mandopete]

Tony,

We have a similar set-up with regards to vocalists. #The big problem is when the bass player is singing the instrument itself takes up a fair amount of space. #With the other two instruments being banjo and guitar there isn't much room anywhere but at the 90 degree angle.

Now I've observered many people using the AT-4033 and most vocalists are about no more than 8 inches away from mic (take a look at the picture of John Reischman & Trisha Gagnon earlier in this thread). #18 inches from the mic seems too far away to me and that is what is creating this issue.

I'm also going to take your advice and start recording our rehearsals using this set up so we can really hear what is happening.

[danmills]

I saw the Jaybirds (http://johnreischman.com/) on Saturday in Mountain View, CA. When singing trios I think they were well over 8", maybe as much as 18", from the mic. The vocalists are bass (center), mandolin (audience's left), guitar (right). The banjo and fiddle were outside the main circle, except during their breaks. On the breaks, the soloing instruments were probably even further away from the mic than the voices.

They used just a single microphone, nothing else for the instruments or anything, not even the bass (unless there was something wireless that I didn't notice). #I don't know what kind of mic. They had two mains spread wide apart and pointed at the audience. There were two monitors (Bose?) right beside and just behind the mains, but pointed toward the musicians at the center of the stage, i.e. sideways. I assume most of the PA equipment belongs to the Redwood Bluegrass Association (http://www.rba.org/), but I could be wrong.

It all sounded good, although you could barely hear the banjo when he wasn't soloing. I would guess this is more of a stylistic choice than an unintended consequence of the stage setup, because it didn't look like was doing much, definitely no aggressive banjo fills to speak of. Very early in the show, John Reischman spoke very closely into the microphone and there was a hint of feedback. The sound engineer probably did something about it, but John also stayed further from the mic from then on. There was no other hint of feedback for the rest of the show.

What I learned from this is that it's definitely possible to fill a pretty big room with good sound using exactly one microphone, and still have stage monitors. On the other hand, the engineer had a whole rack of electronic toys, so just because I know it's possible doesn't mean I have a clue how it's done.

- Dan

[mandomood]

this is the most useful thread I've read thru in a long time...

so when there is a one mic setup...what is the typical 'aiming' of the mando towards that mic?...

vs. a single condenser for solos (lower or upper f hole, or more towards the neck/body joint which I've seen alot do)) I know the mic has everything to do with this choice but is there a typical starting point?

I hope folks keep chiming in here....

[Don Grieser]

My band had the good fortune to open for Peter Rowan/Tony Rice Sunday night in Albuquerque. The venue had an AKG 414 TLII that we tried first. I'm not sure what pattern the soundman had it set at, but it just wouldn't pick anything up very well and it was kind of muffled. So I plugged in my 4033 and we had instant clarity and a ton of gain. That mic loves the mandolin. I agree that it picks up great from the sides. The singers can be an arm's length from it and you can hear them just fine. Our bass player sings some harmonies, and he was 2 feet or more from it and his voice came through fine. One thing we've found is that the person singing lead needs to play their instrument much quieter than usual--that mando chop can be way too loud and even the rhythm guitar can be too strong. The most critical thing seems to be getting the mic at the right height so that there is a good balance between voices and instruments. BTW, we were using just one mic with the bass plugged in.

Ken, is the 4047 pick up pattern the same as the 4033? It's just a warmer sounding mic? Has anyone tried the AT3060 phantom powered tube mic? That one looks interesting for a warmer sound as well.

Don
Raising Cane
http://www.caneraising.com

[TonyP]

The review I read on the 4047 was it was AT's attempt at the "vintage" sound of the U47. Some love, some hate. I would think same pattern but I don't remember that being mentioned. There was also a review of the 3060 online and it got good reviews too. I also agree with all the stuff you said about working the 4033. It just takes some getting used to that it can be so sensitive. I can't imagine the problem with the people who have said they couldn't get enough volume out of it. Never had that problem. But you do have to get used to being close onstage around it http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif We did have one time where it didn't like the guys wiring and wouldn't work.

[mandopete]

this is the most useful thread I've read thru in a long time...
Thanks for the affirmation!

As for soloing on the mic, I'm taking the approach of using a "wing" mic (hence the name of this thread), so I'm not sure what the best position when using the main mic for the solo instrument.

My personal perspective is that the main (vocal) mic should be set up for the singer(s) and with that in mind it may not be at a good height position depending on what instrument is soloing. #I often think of the way Peter Rowan will lift his guitar up into the vocal mic, but I think that's more for show than anything else.

I will second Don's comment about being careful when using to vocal mic to back-off of the backup instrument, otherwise it's gonna come through a little hot.

Hey Bruce, where are you?

[TonyP]

You know what works for me mandomood is put on some good isolating headphones on and play around with the relative mic position. When we record I do that for each instrument to get the sweet spot. They play and I move the mic(s) around until I hear "it". I would think especially for your gig, solo with guitar and mando, a LDC would be the ticket. The prob I had with the Peavy 480 was you had to be so close there was no "air" in the sound. That's what I've not liked about pickups/dynamic mics too. For me the instrument gets it's full sound somewhere out away from it, not close mic'ed. The Oktava wasn't hyper cardioid so I didn't have to be into where I was getting proximity effect and the 4033 is even more so. In our whole arsenal of mics the one mic that sounds good on everything is the 4033 and of course the 4050. We are now practicing with the mic setup, through the gig rack and our in-ear-monitors, no main speakers. That gets everybody used to the pattern of the mic, the "dance" ,working close to each other and keeping dynamics in support of the overall sound. I've seen JR's old band The Good Ol Person's a bunch and have always strived for that sound. When there was a solo/vocal the rest of the band went to almost a click and you could hear the featured part of the music perfectly. I've not seen the Jaybirds yet but I'm sure it's the same thing.

[mandopete]

We are now practicing with the mic setup, through the gig rack and our in-ear-monitors, no main speakers.
That sounds like a very good idea! What are you using for the in-ear monitors?

[TonyP]

cheapo wireless (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3274&item=5752135671&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW)
I'm sorry Pete, I mentioned this in a previous thread on PA stuff and it seemed ignored/made fun of. The horrible thing is about 2months ago this EXACT same thing, new, in box was $24.95 buy it now!!! We were able to get a setup for the whole 4 man band for what they now want for one setup! Supposedly it retailes for $130(yeah right) and it's in no way as good as the shure wireless, but WAY better than the Nady. We tried the Nady and out of the box, one never did work, 2 more quit after a while and they didn't sound that good. The Jensen, you can use any headphone you want, I use some cheap Koss in ear's that are quite good. Good isolation and once you get them to mold to your ear good, they have good fidelity. They aren't perfect, a little hissy and certainly don't have the 150' range they say they have but how we use it, it works great. This sys actually has better freq specs than the shure! I wish you could just buy one transmitter and then 4 reciever/packs, then again when charging the other trans come in handy. Another great feature is they come with rechargeable batts on the packs and the trans has the charger built into it. They do last for at least 5hrs a charge. I use mine out in the shop while I'm working to hear the radio/cd player while I work and I love it. Being under florescent lights mess with it, but just twisting or moving a little clears it up. We always have the gig rack on stage with us so just run the monitor out to the one transmitter. Everybody "tunes" their pack to the transmitter and we're off. For $24.95 I think it's great and was worth the try but it's not the same for $95 ea. so YMMV. Then you are getting into what you could get one of the shure 400's, one person setup for. Of course everybody else would have to get their own receiver and it would run about $1500 if you got a deal for the whole shebang. If you watch like Ricky Skaggs, Nickel Creek etc, they all are wireless in ear. Now that I've got a taste I'll never go reg monitors again, but I've always hated them.

[mandopete]

I'm not so much interested in replacing monitors as we don't even use any, but our bass player has complained about not being able to hear everyone. #My original thought was the U-shaped formation would solve this problem, but aparently not. #She used to use an in-ear monitor, but the notion of having that device as a wireless unit is very appealing.

At this time I'm going to forge ahead with my current set-up for the next 8 gigs, after which I'll be in a much better position to tell what's working and what isn't.

[TonyP]

I'm sorry if I'm hogging your thread but the reason we went to in ear monitors was because of different situations where some of us couldn't hear and also the lack of "groove". When you are without monitors you are dependent on the room for a lot for cues and depending on how you process sound it can be very disconcerting. Some of us have a good internal "clock" and some of the band don't so we get this kind of "lope" going on which I hate. The beat becomes a very wide thing which you can't get any drive off of and the whole band gets tentative. Lots of time, depending where you are on stage your hearing the bounce back from a wall while others are hearing the backwash from the speakers and it's like when everybody's instruments are out of tune to each other and trying to sing harmony. A near miss that doesn't bother some but drives me nuts. Yeah, I know it's short drive but still, it makes me crazy. That's been one of the worst things about PA's is here we spend all this time getting our sound and then we go out to play and it all doesn't sound right. The good timing we have in practice is turned to mush and everybody gets kinda distracted. But when the sound is right life truly is wonderful. The first setup was taking our headphone amp for recording and plugging in just regular like walkman headphones. Three of us didn't care what it looked like, but the bass player/singer didn't go for it and the three of us could tell he was off from us and he thought it was just fine. We tried to dump the headphones because of him and it really sounded like I'd suddenly stuck my head in a pillow. None of us could stand to be without them, so we had to just kinda "re calibrate" to having the bass a little off time and singing off. It was a real lesson for the guitar player and me anyway.

[mandomood]

if there has to be monitor use, what would be the easiest solution other than in-ears?...

placement is usually a big issue, I have seen in some cases, smaller theaters and smaller stages where folks have used a monitor on a stand (close to the head and not pointed towards the mic-very controllable) or what about a smaller acoustic amp for instance, set off to the side or behind someone in between them and the mic. Depending on the situation, I wonder how well that could work.

Is this ever an option or typically suggested?....

[mandopete]

Finnally got a chance to review the recording of the performance last week - that was revealing! I find that we have been overloading the 4033 and there was some distinct distortion. The Peavey 480's were (as mentioned) very sensitive and showed quite a bit of proximity effect. I found that the guitar seems to represent the biggest challenge in getting a consistent (not too boomy) sound. The big surprise was my SM57, which (to my ears) sounded really good, especially for the mando.

We used the same set-up last night in rehearsal and found the same issues to be true. One question I have is how do you go about setting the gain for the mics, the 4033 in particular?

[mandopete]

Note To Engineers - When all else fails, read the manual.

So there it is, right in the manual for the Behringer 1604A...

"Channel input level is determined by the Gain Control. #Use Solo/PFL (pre fader level) to bring the channel input onto the left and right bargraph meters respectively."

Duh! # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Flowerpot]

OK, replying to post #2, posted a long time ago,

Spruce had said...

"If you want to see an incredible show around one mic, check out the Cherryholmes.

There are maybe 6-7 people on stage, and the way they work the mic is pure magic. They make the McCourys look like they're loitering, BION... "

Got to see Cherryholmes last weekend. They have evidently modified their 1-mic approach, as they had a main mic in the center for vocals and most instruments, and another mic set up about 10 feet away about 4 or 5 feet high. They would alternate mics between instrumental solos, first a guitar in the main mic, then a fiddle in the side mic, banjo in the main mic, mandolin in the side mic, etc. They used the mic on the side quite a bit for twin fiddles. Still had a lot of choreography, as they kept running back and forth between the mics to either sing or play a break. But I think the guitar and banjo stayed with the main mic.

Interesting, too, Mountain Heart was there... I was expecting some sort of wireless + pickups kind of thing, ear monitors and such, but they went with traditional stationary multiple mics, one for each instrument/voice. They sounded good too (OK, they flat kicked @$$ and took no prisoners, but that's another thread).

[mandopete]

See...there it is. #There is almost no band that uses one microphone only. #The only band in recent memory to do this (that I recall) was Karl Shifflett. #I saw Doyle Lawson (who I think started this whole single mic thang) and he was even using two.

My take on this is that eventhough the single mic sounds like it would be a good idea, there is no one that is really using just one mic. #There is just too much temptation to add additional microphones.

[Mando Medic]

With regards to the question of the pattern of the 4047 vs. the 4033. The 4047 has a wider vertical pattern than the 4033, so you have to put it up a little higher so it is more balanced between vocals and instruments. I have found that if you put the 4047 up at lip level, it picks up all the instruments except the bass just fine. You don't have to lift your instruments to be heard, but you do have to lighten up a little on backup chops. Kenc

[Frankmc]

Ken,
do you know of somewhere where one could find some kind of
diargram that showed coverage patterns/angles of various mics?

Frankmc

[Mando Medic]

I don't but will do a search. Kenc

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

Hope you do better than I did, Ken. I think we're limited to trying them out and sharing the results. Good idea to keep doing that. They all are quite a bit different for being related to each other!
I may be alone, mandopete, but I'm still trying to stick to no wings, no second, no instrument mics.
I've seen New England Bluegrass Band do a one mic and an instrument mic on Lincoln's guitar. (Not to be missed if you haven't heard him.)

rasa

[Kevin K]

I too would like to stick with no wing mic's but our guitar player would reather play lighter when taking his breaks and really needs a lower separate mic to be heard. Just not sure what to do. We use a AKG C414 and I think it does well for the most part.

[mandopete]

Well it's a noble idea, but I think we see more and more of the "pro's" who went to single mic are now adding others. Just thinking a bit...Open Road and Karl Shifflett are the only two "purists" that come to my mind. We'll see this weekend at Wintergrass if there are others.#

So this was the original premise for this thread - what are the variations on the the single mic approach and the pro's and con's of these approaches? #We sort of got off on a lengthy discussion of microphones, but I would like to understand how some of the variations might work.

[Kevin K]

With such a wide coverage of a LD mic, I wouldn't want a single mic's inteneded sound to bleed over to the large mic and cause a cut in sound. It seems like a tight pattern mic really has a proximity effect that is not welcome either.

[mandopete]

Okay, just got back from Wintergrass and I only saw two bands that used a "single" mic. #One was The Wilders and the other was The Reeltime Travellers, both of which were a little more in the "old-timey" camp. The Wilders had a AT4033 and The Reeltime Travellers had an Audix (I think). #Both worked pretty well considering the musical stylings of these groups.

I saw several variations of the "wing" mic approach, with some that worked better than others. #One that was surprising was The Grasscals. #I had a nice chat with soundman and he felt the Audix mics they were using throughout Wintergrass were a bit on the hot side. #I noticed that King Wilkie was using two wing mics and I had a good talk with Reid Burgess about it and it came down to the simple fact of just not having enough room aroung the mic at times.

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

Thanks, mandopete, for your continued efforts. How far out from the center are they hanging those wings? And your experience/opinion? What's got me hung up on using just one mic is the uncertainty of my own abilities to deal with the moments of difficulty (phase cancellation, etc., etc.). A general example - this weekend I did sound for Noel Paul Stookey, Ed Motteau, and Jim Mason (indiv. multiple dynamic mics - vocal and instrument - and instrument inputs). Got it sounding great when one of the significant concert organizers informed me there was a dead spot first 4 rows center (VIPs). And I was using a low, center fill main, along with 110 degree dispersion on the FOH. I let it pass, checked it out when the house filled and it really was fine. But there are always those who think it could be different. And tell you about it!
I'm getting some pressure from my band to move to two LDC mics, but I think the wing solution is vastly superior, so again thanks for keeping this discussion going.

rasa

[mandopete]

Well, I think the wing mics worked very well. #I thought King Wilkie had a pretty balanced sound that might actually have suffered if they stuck with just one mic. #My guess would be that the "wing" mics were about 6 to 8 feet from the main mic.

The Grasscals were a bit of a diffeent matter as it seems the vocalists had not really rehearsed with this configuration and the duets and trios we not as good as they could have been.

I saw one band (which will remain nameless) in the lounge venue, which is a smaller location, which did not do well with this set-up. #Seems that they had some issues in getting a good balance and as I recall the banjo player relied purely on the vocal mic, which I thought should have been higher (physically).

I continue to experiment with this approach, recording the results and analyzing both the sound and logistics. #I will admit that I don't believe that a single mic is going to work for everything (instruments and voice), but that the approach of individual mics for each voice and instrument is not desireable either.

[TonyP]

One thing you don't mention Pete is the monitor setups. I think your right about the wing setup just for the comfort factor of not eating each other pegheads. It's a lot harder to work a single LDC because of the height, unlike a good wing that is set at instrument height.
Now for the MILLION $ question, how do you deal with the banjo? Turn off his wing mic and just pretend it's really on? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Kevin K]

TonyP,

I think you hit the banjo on the head there.
MandoPete, what mics where used as wing mic's? Did the people using the wing mic's stay in that area or where they left open till breaks?
Thanks!

[Spruce]

"do you know of somewhere where one could find some kind of
diargram that showed #coverage patterns/angles of #various mics? "

Here's (http://www.coutant.org/1.html) a cool page with a lot of info on various microphones...

Here's (http://www.k-bay106.com/mics.htm) a great page that documents vintage micropones, especially old RCA ribbons...

"Okay, just got back from Wintergrass and I only saw two bands that used a "single" mic. #One was The Wilders and the other was The Reeltime Travellers, both of which were a little more in the "old-timey" camp. #Both worked pretty well considering the musical stylings of these groups."

I saw both of these bands last weekend as well, and they really highlight the problems that you need to address when using a single LDC....

The Reeltime Travellers had a good balance going, and then one of the group would step up and sing like you would on an SM58, just eating the mic. #I was standing next to the soundman, and I can't print what I heard him muttering under his breath... # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Feedback ensued...

I loved the Wilders, and could tell that they have spent a lot of time working that single mic and have put a lot of thought into it...
I'm sure the soundman could have set levels, and walked over to the other side of the hall to grab a beer....

Nobody ate the mic, and their spacing around the cardiod pattern worked well, with an archtop guitar (usually) in the center (there's a topic for a whole new thread--how well archtops fit in a stringband setting, especially one with a lot of vocals), and banjo or mandolin on one side and fiddle on the other. #They had a mic wrapped on the bass...

I dunno...
I just love the visuals of working a single mic, and the choreography that you need to work out to make it work for your band...
That last part is important. #Each band is gonna be different in it's micing needs, so there's gonna be a different solution for each group.

But watching the Wilders work that mic is a huge part of their show, and it just wouldn't be the same at all if they used individual mics...

Or sounded as good...

[mandopete]

I agree 100% on your assessment of The Wilders and the way they "worked" the mic. #I think being a 4-piece band helped a bit too as there would probably not have been enough room to fit in another instrument.

Interesting comment about "eating the mic", I saw more than one band using a LDC mic doing this and the results were just as you've described above. #I felt that the King Wilkie folks could have been a bit closer on the vocals or perhaps had the mic a bit higher. #What's the thinking on this...do you set the mic at a medium height to catch the instruments as well?

[Spruce]

"I agree 100% on your assessment of The Wilders and the way they "worked" the mic. #I think being a 4-piece band helped a bit too as there would probably not have been enough room to fit in another instrument."

Well, 3 on that mic...
The bass was wrapped...

What amazes me is that the McCourys still don't mic the bass and you can hear it loud and clear coming through the 4033s both on the PA and/or live recordings...
But Bubb does tend to wack it...

"Interesting comment about "eating the mic", I saw more than one band using a LDC mic doing this and the results were just as you've described above. #I felt that the King Wilkie folks could have been a bit closer on the vocals or perhaps had the mic a bit higher. # "

Man, that's rule #1 as far as I'm concerned...
I call LDCs "flea-flatulance" mics because they can literally pick up any sound whatsoever from great distances...

To set a level on an LDC for a band playing 18" off-mic and then have someone go up and treat it like a 58 is deadly for all concerned....

"What's the thinking on this...do you set the mic at a medium height to catch the instruments as well?"

How about setting the LDC a foot above the tallest singer and aim it down at the band? #I've never seen it done, but it might prove to be an interesting way to go....

Come to think of it, the Jaybirds sort of did this with 2 451's the first time I saw them...

[TonyP]

Man, I know if we did the foot above the band our singer would be trying to jump up there! I think there's 2 things here at work, most have never been around a LDC and the coolness factor of getting close to the mic like your smooching it. Our singer worked for years with the usual "rock" setup and forgets all the time to stay away and let the mic do the work. It's a prop for him just like he's got to have something in his hands(like an instrument)to not look like a spaz while he sings. That's why I did the recording in practice, to show everybody how well it works. We still all struggle with just relaxing and playing and just let the LDC do it's job though. If we are going to use a wing so we can be comfortable it's tough to tell the singer, back off!

[Flowerpot]

The Wilders also had a secondary mic attached to the same stand as the main mic, pointed down at the dobro, placed around three feet high. So if the bass was wrapped, they were using 3 mics altogether.

[Kevin K]

So if there was a mic on the same stand as the main mic, that means the source (dobro) was getting picked up by both, wouldn't that cause some comb type filtering?

[Flowerpot]

I would think so, yes. But if the dobro mic were, say, 10dB hotter than the other mic (with respect to picking up the dobro), the freq response ripples would be very small.

[Kevin K]

Would like to see a picture. Just thinking out loud and trying to see what works and what doesn't. If it was 10db more, wouldn't that pick up the other instruments during normal singing too to where they would have more presence, unless maybe it was a dynamic hyper cardoid mic?

[mandopete]

How about setting the LDC a foot above the tallest singer and aim it down at the band? #I've never seen it done, but it might prove to be an interesting way to go....

Come to think of it, the Jaybirds sort of did this with 2 451's the first time I saw them...
Yes, they did and as I recall I thought the result was fantastic! #I'm not sure why they abandoned this set-up.

[mandopete]

The Wilders also had a secondary mic attached to the same stand as the main mic, pointed down at the dobro, placed around three feet high. #So if the bass was wrapped, they were using 3 mics altogether.
Aha, another single mic set-up foiled!

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[Nolan]

After trying the "Single" mic thing for a few years in our band I've come to the conclusion that…
1. I like single mics for singing harmony since you get close to everyone else
2. I hate taking my breaks in the single mic, I can't hear my mandolin. When I can't hear my instrument my technique really goes out the window since I play harder to get more volume.

We have come up with attitude now that we want to create the single mic look for the cool effect of people moving around on stage but also have side mics so we can move over to them to take a break or if we're not singing to make more room for everyone else. It can get really crowded on stage if you get one person who isn't aware of other people or with us, our bass player sings half the songs and that bass takes up a lot of room right in front of the mic. She not very good at moving it around quickly either.
I think the answer is in-ear monitors and plugging in with wireless transmitters and then blending the one mic and the direct feed. What do I know though?
I know a lot more bluegrass players use pickups then you would think. I talked with the guitar player from Mountain Heart on Saturday and he told me he plugs in and plays into the mic. They also use the in-ear monitors.

[mandopete]

I think the answer is in-ear monitors and plugging in with wireless transmitters and then blending the one mic and the direct feed. #
Are you talking about just the vocals or plugging in the instruments via wireless?

Adam Steffey discussed this challenge at length in the Saturday, "Meet Mountain Heart" session at Wintergrass. #The issue with #plugging in the instruments, be it via pick-up of close mic'ed wireless is that you have no ability to "work the mic". #Mountain Heart travels with a soundman that they refer to as the 7th member of the band. The soundman handles all the fader dynamics as he is totally familar with the music.

Now the in-ear monitors make all the sense in the world and will, I imagine, become the new standard and thus eliminate the need for wedges. #Having all vocals go through the single mic makes singing a lot easier whrn you consider that you can hear (and see) the other singers better. #I think in a smaller venue the need for any monitoring is really minimal.

[Nolan]

- "Are you talking about just the vocals or plugging in the instruments via wireless?"

I was thinking run the vocals through the single mic and send a signal from the instruments out through a wireless. #I don't know how it would work because I don't run sound but it seems like at least then I could hear my mandolin and not have to play really hard. #You would need to set the volume level of the mandolin for doing chops from the wireless signal) and move up to the mic for more boost when you take a break. #
I don't know, would it work?

[mandopete]

If the instruments are on wireless, I assume you'd be using either a pickup or a small close-up mic. Mountain Heart had these miniature mikes that Steffey described as smaller than the end of your pinky finger and were mounted directly on the instrument. The problem is there is no way to adjust the volume (by the player) for either. Unless you plan on bringing a soundman along it's going to be difficult to control the dynamics.

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

Put a volume pedal in the chain? In a pinch a direct box/pre amp with volume adjust (or a blender system), but, of course, you have to twist the knob back and forth when needed. I do sound for some who have used a blender clamped right to the/a mic. stand, otherwise you need some sort of rig to keep things at arms reach rather than on the stage floor.

What I don't truly understand is how individuals in an acoustic band can't hear themselves enough to match to the overall mix they are hearing. Part is individual hearing ability, I know, but part is just plain ear training. It's not an orchestra. And even in those, one must train the ear.
I have from time to time had steel pans on one side of me, several percussionists, accordion, and bagpipes on other sides of me (and even horns) and I still can hear me - even if noone else can! Monitors (in ear or not) are not necessary items, although they can help some individuals and certainly can add to fine tuning the timing of the group effort on stage. They can also be a pain, both to get the right mix, and to run properly all night. In a big show, there are a seperate monitor world and FOH, for good reason.
I still champion the single mic for the small acoustic band.

rasa

[Nolan]

Wouldn't it give you a volume boost if you just stepped up closer to the single mic even if you were running an internal pickup?

I guess I just would like to really hear my mandolin WELL and not have to honk on it really hard. We also play some square dances and those get REALLY loud, especially the ones for college kids. I borrowed a Shertler for one once and it made a HUGE difference but I did have to use a volume pedal.

[mandopete]

I still champion the single mic for the small acoustic band.
So name a few bands that are using a "single" mic. I still say it's a noble idea, but in reality it does not work.

Had another rehearsal last night with the "JR set-up" as I call it and I'm very close to adandoning the condenser mic's for the instruments. The Peavey's are just too sensitive and I'm having a h*ll of time getting the guitar dialed in. We have been having real good luck with the SM-57 and I think I'm going to go that route.

2 gigs this weekend - wish me luck!

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

Wish I could, mandopete, but the numbers are few. Hunger Mountain Boys do, there are just two of them. Northern Lights (4) do. #Cox Family used to, I don't know about the past several years. I've seen AK and Union Station do it. Also Adam Dewey and Crazy Creek. Lovell Sisters (5 piece)) did it on PHC a few weeks ago. We do it and several other small time bands I'm acquainted with but no one else here would ever have heard of.
Its just simpler, that's all. Especially when there is no board operator other than one of the band.
Did a gig with a large Cajun ensemble one night - 9 in all. All dynamic mics, the mains were fixed up on the ceiling, behind us. Rough nite, and I'm glad I was just plugged in so I could focus on everyone else's problems.
The SM57 probably will work well. I haven't used it for instruments yet in conjunction with the LDC, but use it regularly in other situations. Some need to be gained a touch more than others for some reason, but in general, they function nicely unless pushed too hard at the board. Then they can feedback at odd times.
Micing the guitar is interesting. When I use a SM57, I personally prefer it placed on the bass side, back abit from the sound hole and close in to the upper edge, where it gets top and side vibration. If you play around with it, you'll find each instrument's sweet spot. It's not for everyone, as there is less freedom of hand and body movement, but the sound is slightly warmer and less chance for soundhole induced feedback.
Hope you have some good results on the next few rounds.


rasa

[Nolan]

Pete, are you guys playing up at Matlby this weekend?

I was up there last month and had a good discusion with Terry about the "One Mic" thing.

[mandopete]

No, we actually have two gigs this weekend. #Tonight at Big Al's Bar-B-Que in Bothell and Saturday at Wired & Unplugged in Snohomish. #All info is online here (http://www.staytunedbluegrass.com).

[TonyP]

The main prob we've had with our guitar player is partly just the problem with guitar's range(it's easily buried) and the guitar player's pic/mic technique. I've watched him, and he likes the mic on the bottom bout, plays softly, and his arm covers his sight of the mic so he's not always on the mic. When I point that out, he does ok for a while. Then the next thing you know his Oldtimers' kicks in and he's off his mic again and complaining . I should point out, this is with the wing setup, when we go to the single mic, he's always closest to the mic so he's always loudest when he takes his break. If you can't hear yourself, it's been said before, everybody else is playing too loud, and the louder YOU get the louder they will get. The answer is never make yourself louder, it's get everybody else, and especially the banjo, to back off. That is the struggle that I've experienced from day one. The struggle now is getting everybody to not overplay thinking they can't be heard. We are still trying to practice with the LDC and wireless in-ears to get everybody used to it. It may never fly onstage but it won't be because it's not a good setup, it has to do with confidence in the setup. Recording practice doesn't lie.

[GaryM]

I talked to the sound guy at wintergrass and he said JD Crowe was using an Audix SCX-25. I was blown away by the vocals. I'm not sure if there was any other mics being used. The guitar player lifted his axe up pretty high sometimes to get in there.. It looked great the way they all worked the mic.

[Spruce]

"So name a few bands that are using a "single" mic. #I still say it's a noble idea, but in reality it does not work."

Well, yeah...
But just to describe the movement towards less mics on stage, "single-mic" what we call it....
Alter it to fit your band, but for the sake of symantics, it's the "single-mic" approach....

The McCourys were indeed a single-mic band for years, with no wrap on the bass...
The tapes that resulted from this period are nothing short of stunning. #Check out a radio broadcast from Malmø, Sweden of the McCourys with Steve Earle sometime. #
It's my understanding that we're listening to one 4033, and just rocks on every level...

I've mentioned them before, but The Cherryholmes (http://www.cherryholmesfamilyband.com/home.htm) are one of the coolest and most entertaining bands onstage I've ever seen, and it's all about the one-mic.
(Yeah, there's probably a wrap on the bass)...

They have a couple fiddlers (see pic--one left-handed and one right-handed) that circle the pack like a couple of sheep dogs circling the herd, and then dive in for a twin-fiddle solo...

It's very entertaining to watch, and sounds great.
There are 6 people on stage, about a dozen different sets of choreography to fit the tunes, and nobody seems to get in the way.

They have obviously spent a lot of time working on their mic technique, and the result, to my mind, is the "poster-band" (along with the McCourys) for the "single-mic" approach to mic'ing a bluegrass band....

[mandopete]

Check out a radio broadcast from Malmø, Sweden of the McCourys with Steve Earle sometime. #
It's my understanding that we're listening to one 4033, and just rocks on every level...
Really? #That's amazing as that represents a 6-piece band with two vocalists (Earle and McCoury) and the sound, as you say, rocks!

Yes, it's really the "single mic approach" in that the singers are using a single mic. #The variation comes in the use of "wing" mics and use of a bass wrap and other modifications.

Side Note: - Used 3 SM-57's for the wings last night and it worked pretty well. We sacrificed some the clarity we get with condensers, but to overall mix was much better. We'll try again tonight to dial it in.

[mandopete]

Here's how it all looked:

[Spruce]

"It's my understanding that we're listening to one 4033, and just rocks on every level..."

OK, I'm full of it...
I just went and had a listen to the Malmø tapes and there's definitly stereo audience and ambience, so there were some room mics in there too...

I'll blame a certain mandolin player who told me it all was done with one mic...
As far as he was concerned, it was... # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

It probably is the most rockin' recording of an acoustic band I've ever heard...
You can certainly see why those Swedes were going bull-goose-looney...

[piiman]

where might a guy find a link to the dell and steve show?

[Jim Hilburn]

Pete, you guys need to make some eye contact with the audience!
I met Pete 2 years ago at Wintergrass, and then found out by coencidence that I used to play with Alan, the banjo player in Boulder in the early '80's.
Lately,I've been playing in an all-girl band called One Lucky Guy. I only had a 4 channel pa head, and decided to go with the one mic approach. I got on e-bay, and scored an AKG C-3000, a Sabine feedback killer and the phantom supply.
I believe anyone using this type of system will at some point find a venue where it just doesn't cut it. Ours was a coffee house in a strip mall with tile floors where we were set up against the front windows.This is when I decided it was back to all dynamics.
Also,some bands just aren't cut out for the choreography part. I have one member who always gravitates to the front of the mic and one who is too shy to get into it.I need to lock them in place with an instrument and vocal mic. So it was back to E-bay for an 8 channel head and a couple of 57's to go with what we already had,and some clamp-on stand extensions and some monitors. we can now play almost any size venue and have very good control.
The 4033 seems to be the gold standard. Has anyone else used a C-3000 and what do you think of them?

[mandopete]

Pete, you guys need to make some eye contact with the audience!
Yeah, those pictures don't lie do they! #I have always hated watching bands that just look at their own fingers. #Good advice Jim!

Had another gig last night and I have decided that the SM57's are better for us than using small condenser mic's such as the Peavey 480's. #I liken the SM57 to a 'generalist" mic in that it seems to function well in a variety of applications.#We have a challenge in that we switch around quite a bit and one person does not always stay on the same mic.

We recorded both off the board and out in the audience and the results were very good. #Now we just need to come up with a better solution for the bass. #I have seen clamps that allow the bass mic to mount to the instrument and in that way it can be on axis with the sound hole (as opposed to the "traditional" bass wrap scenario).

Jim, I hear your waiting list is up the 3 years, is that true? #Man, I should have gotten in line when I met you at Wintergrass!

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[mandopete]

This may not be what you had in mind Jim, but we play a tune called Mosquito Creek and Mary, our bass player, likes to do a little audience participation thing by getting folks to make the mosquito-face...

[Jim Hilburn]

Pete, my list is up to 3 years not because there are so many people on it, but because I'm so slow.

[piiman]

I saw the J.R. and the Jaybirds last thursday. They used a 4033 on the boom which was extended toward the vocalists about 18", on the main post of the same stand at the same height as the 4033 they had 2 vertically positioned akg451's. this is the best sound I have heard, it didn't matter where they stood, even 90 degrees to the side, the sound was amazing. this must be the answer. Have any of you tried this setup?

[mandopete]

...on the main post of the same stand at the same height as the 4033 they had 2 vertically positioned akg451's.
By that do you mean the two 451's were pointed at the ceiling? #I've never heard of this, but I have a friend who uses a similar set-up with two small diaphram condenser mic's that are mounted on the left and right of a single AT 4050. These two mics are pointed at roughly 45 degree angles from the main mic and aimed down about 30 degrees. #I believe the idea is for these mics to catch more of the instruments.

Reischman used to use a set-up with just two small diaphram condenser mics that were spaced about 10 feet apart and pointed in the general direction of the band. #I thought this set-up worked remarkably well and provided a very generous "sweet spot".

Seems like he (and more than likely Jim Nunally) are always tweaking their set-up.

[piiman]

I asked Jim about the vertical mics, he said they are AKG 451's with a 90 degree adapter between the capsule and the body. When you look at them they looked like an upside down L. I 'spose your buddys' method would work the same.

[fredfrank]

We just played at a festival in Stevinsville, Montana where 20, yeah, you read that correctly, 20 bands played through one mic all day long. Made getting the groups in and out of the stage real quick and easy. The sound out front was incredible, too.

The mic was an AT-4033 encased in a reproduction outer case.

[Kevin K]

Where can one find one of these reproduction outer cases?

[mandopete]

...20 bands played through one mic all day long.
Yep, that's a great application for the single-mic. #It really makes the whole "open mic" concept work much smoother.#The trick is to let any of the performers know that will be the set-up and then set it and forget it!

Did you find that you had to get pretty close to the mic for vocals?

[fredfrank]

Actually, no, Pete. There was a sound man in the wings doing recordings, and if a group was too far away or too close he'd adjust. But this was actually the best sound I've seen in years. Well since last year at the same festival.

A fellow who runs a recording studio there in Montana owns the mic and housing. His user name on this board is MikeC. He told me where he got the cool shell, but I forgot. I did look it up on the internet when he told me, and the reproduction shell cost more than twice what the mic does. It's pretty cool, though.

[fredfrank]

A better view:

Not to mention a more appropriate instrument!

[mandopete]

A fellow who runs a recording studio there in Montana owns the mic and housing. His user name on this board is MikeC.
I think that's Mike Conroy if I'm not mistaken.

Hey Fred, is that you picking a b*njo?

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[fredfrank]

Yes sir, it is! All the groups play for free since the festival is a fund raiser for the Montana Rockies Bluegrass Association, and many of the groups are pick up bands. Sometimes you get asked to pick for another group for a half-hour set. I played banjer on 5 different sets and mandolin for two. Only one set was our band, and I played both 5-string and mando (alternately, of course).

[fredfrank]

Actually, we have tried using one mic for vocals, and satellite mics for fiddle, banjo, etc. But it seems the more mics you get involved, the harder it is to hear each other, and we just keep going back to the one mic system.

I saw Ben Winship one time when he and John Lowell of Kane's River were doing a duet show, and the stage had only one mic. Ben fiddled with it a bit, trying to position it just right, then apologized to the audience and said, "We just don't know how to play through one mic, we either have eight or nine mics or none!"
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[mandopete]

Is that the new varnished Collings in the picture?

I also noticed you've changed your "handle" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[fredfrank]

Is that the new varnished Collings in the picture?

I also noticed you've changed your "handle" # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Actually, that's the rare double-scrolled Gibson Fern. Not to be confused with a three-point. I use it most of the time these days on stage without any electrical tape.

I changed my user-name here on the Cafe, because a lot of folks assume I was a dyed-in-the-wool Gibson guy, just because my handle was: onlyagibsonisgoodenuff. Actually that was a slogan they used to use and actually put it on a banner on the peghead of some of their guitars years ago. They did spell enuff correctly, whereas I did not.

I actually like many different brands of instruments even though I own a couple of Gibsons. I have, as you stated, some Collings stuff too.

[mandopete]

So how is the varnished MF-5 doing (inquiring minds want to know)? #Are you planning on being at Darrington this year?

[fredfrank]

Haven't played it enough to really know. I put a ding in it and had to send it off for repair. Won't be at Darrington, since they have a two-years in a row rule there. At least for bands.

[piiman]

O K I talked to the people at AKG, they said that Nunnaly is using a swivel adaptor A61 which is no longer available or repairable:(