Questionable Ethics 102

[OlderThanWillie]

OK so I can't copy a library CD except for a G# somewhere in the middle. That means I can only drive my car 1/9 of a mile on Interstate 35.

Can I buy a CD on Half.com where the description says like new and it's likely the seller made a copy and is selling the original?

Can I buy a CD that has a small hole punched in the barcode of the package knowing that this was meant to be a promotional copy?

Can I buy a CD, listen to it a few times, and then give it to my girlfriend? We both enjoyed it but she didn't pay for it and the artist got nothing extra even though there have been two owners of the CD.

Remember now that all this is for my own personal use, not for resale. Also that the high price of CD's has nothing to do with the above questions.

(Maybe we should have a constitutional amendment forbidding the copying of CD's.) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mandoJeremy]

Dude, just copy it and don't worry about it. #I would guess that 85 to 90% of the people on this board have copied a CD or 2, 3, or 20. #Just posting the question is the part that is not so wise. #I would bet that most of the people who responded on your last post have copied their fair share. #See ya.

[CharlieKnuth]

Older Than Willie,

I will admit that I have made a couple of copies from the library, but only knowing that I am going to buy the CD when I can find a copy and have always followed through on that. I know that copying a CD from the library is not right, but I don't feel that guilty about it as long as I keep to my own guidelines.

Buying one on half.com is okay. You cannot be responsible for the actions of others. Someone bought that CD and it is their right to sell it if they want. You don't know if they are selling because they don't like it, they need to pay for the dentist or if they copied it. Personally, I like the liner notes too much to have a copy of the CD and get rid of the original.

Sure you can give it to your girlfrined after you listen to it. There is nothing wrong with that. But, if you feel guilty about it, then buy a copy for her and keep yours. You never know, she may not be your girlfriend next month and you would miss the CD.

I am not sure about the hole punched CD purchase. I am still wrestling with that one. I refuse to purchase a CD that has stamped on it, "Not for Sale, property of the Record Company, etc." I see these in used CD stores and want to gather them all up and walk out with them. I feel half tempted to contact the recording industry to see if they can give me the authority to do this. It makes me angry that these are being sold for $9.00 when they shouldn't be sold at all.

I liked the joke, yes let us make a constitutional amendment against copying CD's. That makes as much sense as the one being discussed now.

[John Flynn]

There is a great quote that has stuck with me from an ethics course I took:

"Ethics is ultimately about how one chooses to behave when no is looking and there is no chance of getting caught."

In other words, it's about what each of us really believes is right and wrong as opposed to what we think the proper answer is or what we think we could get in trouble for. My advice is do what your conscience tells you.

[ethanopia]

you know I read some about this in the other thread, and I've read some fired up flame wars on it in Co-Mando

but I gotta tell you I don't see the big deal.the reality of the situation is this. Companies are holding to an out dated mode of thinking, the same argument of the death of movies was made during the VHS arguments of the Sony trial.

If you want to hear what a meanigful debate on the subject sounds like go here...

http://www.eff.org/IP/P2P/MGM_v_Grokster/20040203_oral_arg.mp3

this is an MP3 of the proceedings from the grokster case. And if you listen closley and through the legal mumbo jumbo you can hear that based on the Sony (VHS) case the record companies are fighting a loosing battle. While not directly dealing with the ethics of copying CDs I think it proves that we are not looking at the death of the recording industry, but rather just anew market for musicians and a new way to make money.

It is ridiculous now to think that back in the day the movies houses thought that they would be put out of business by VHS pirates, we all know that VHS and DVDs make more money than the theatres do, it is a new market...

Do not fear digital music embrace it...

[JD Cowles]

i've burned my share of cd's but often end up buying the ones i really like anyway. i think it's a perfectly acceptable way to figure out if you like the cd before you buy it. it's a drag to shell out $20 and find that the cd isn't what you thought it would be. just to be devil's advocate, what if i see a set of plans in a woodworking magazine that i like at the library. i shell out my $0.47 and copy the plans and take them home. should i be obliged to order a back issue of the magazine to ge those plans instead? i think copied music can be a great way for an artist to get exposure to people that may not have been willing (or able) to spend $20 for a cd. down the road that person could become a fan and buy tickets and even cd's. on that note, you could always try to purchase cd's after the show from the band themselves and try to cut out some middle people. plus you get to shoot the breeze with them at the same time. enough of my ramblings... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[John Ely]

Here is my thinking about cut-outs. #The record company and its distributors/retailers may have a deal between themselves about the further distribution of cut-outs, but those deals don't apply to you. #In other words, if Mr. X gets a promotional copy, and then decides to sell it to you, that is his and your right. #The record company cannot reach outside of its contract with ABC Distributing. The record company may have a beef with its distributor for improperly selling or disposing of the promotional copies (or of cut-outs), but you have certainly not done anything illegal or for which you could be sued, and I don't think you have done anything wrong, either.

You can own and use a CD sequentially, you can give or sell it to anyone you want.

The highway analogy is not good. You can drive on the whole highway. Your share of the tax dollars may have bought one bolt on one light pole, but you have the ability to drive on the whole road. Similarly, your tax dollars may have paid for three pages of one book in the library, or that G#, but you are able to check out the whole book or the whole CD. (By the way, I believe that in some countries authors may get royalty payments for books checked out the library. An English writer once complained to me that he felt that American libraries were costing him royalties, and he suggested that the system in Great Britain was different.)

[Greenmando]

I believe that in some countries authors may get royalty payments for books checked out the library. #An English writer once complained to me that he felt that American libraries were costing him royalties, and he suggested that the system in Great Britain was different.
I have a friend who is a popular writer and many of his books are released in England, I will ask him and see if he sees a royalty check from their libraries.

[OlderThanWillie]

I think I've got it! #I buy the cutout or used CD for $5 + shipping. While I own it I make a copy for my personal use and later give the original CD to my girlfriend who makes her own personal copy and then gives the original CD to...

Based on the opinions and legal advice I've received from you-all this is not only legal but is ethical assuming I have no knowledge of where the CD came from or if it had been copied by the previous owner and I don't know in advance what my friend or friend's friend will do with the CD.

Thanks to all of you for helping me get this straightened out in my mind. Maybe a constitutional amendment would be overkill.

[Don]

I think music is to be shared.Before CDR,I would transfer to cassette tape an album I was enthusiastic about and give it to someone I thought might enjoy it.Now with CDR,it is a lot quicker and cheaper to copy albums.I think if an artist is going to go hungry because a few people are copying their albums and giving them to friends,they should probably get a day job.Also,I don't recall this being much of a controversy before CDR.

I'm with Don. #Except I think food is made to be eaten and I just go steal it from the local Safeway. #If the manager loses money because of it, he should just get a different type of job. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[KevinM]

These essence of the problem from the company/artist perspective is the commonplace ability in the digital age to effortlessly make absolutely perfect copies, and to disseminate them via broadband internet. I would guess that folks on mandolincafe.com are not the types to ruthlessly copy everything ala your average college dorm inhabitant, so the few sins we may commit do not amount to much harm to the artist (although I would hasten to point out that bluegrass and other mandolin artists are probably hurt more by each missed sale than Britney Spears is.) I for one have adopted the policy of not making copies of music available commercially and handing them to friends. My kids have asked me to do that of their Linkin Park and Good Charlotte albums and I had to tell them NO and why, viewing it as my parental obligation to point out right and wrong. Technically, except for copies for personal use, that is illegal under federal copyright law, pure and simple, and arguments to the contrary land you on a slippery slope. But you can download and burn music from www.bluegrassbox.com for instance and hand that around because that's what it is designed for. In the old days, the copies were analog and not perfect, and successive copying of cassette tapes eventually degraded the quality such that it was a built-in mass-copy prevention device. Today is much different and it is a real moral conundrum and quagmire. All of the above IMHO and not intended to persuade anyone otherwise - there are lots of views on this subject.

[Tom C]

OlderThanWillie,
Why not shoot somebody you don't like? Seems like you can justify it anyway you like, it's still illegal and un-ethical.

THe essence of the problem is people confuse their OPINION with the LAW.

Legally, if you are making copies of copyright material to avoid paying for extra copies, ...then you are stealing. #If you are buying a used original CD, you are OK. #If you sell that original CD and KEEP a copy, you are stealing. # If Joe Bob somewhere along the "chain" of sales burned a copy then HE is stealing not you.

OlderThanWillie, you asked about ethics. #So you tell us;
IS it ethical (for you) to do these things? #
Of couse, that thinking could support the idea that if someone thinks thier mother-in-law deserves to be killed, then it is ethical (for them) to do so. #Perhaps ethics aren't based only upon the beholder...

... or the law. But that is another debate for another board...

[Walter Newton]

Speaking of questionable ethics, just recieved my settlement check today from the class action suit which alleged that record companies "conspired to illegally raise the prices of certain prerecorded Music Products by implementing Minimum Advertised Price policies, in violation of state and federal laws" - see http://www.musiccdsettlement.com/english/default.htm .

[OlderThanWillie]

I've received my check too -- for $13.86 I think. Not enough to buy a new CD but I guess I could spend it on some CD-R blanks...

It is unethical to copy a library CD. It is unethical to copy a CD you own and give away the CD having planned that in advance. I can't control what others have done with the CD I purchase from them or what they might do with the CD I give to them -- thus my buying and reselling or giving away is ethical.

My buying from an out-of-state seller and not paying my state's use tax is illegal and unethical. How many of you ethicists are guilty of that? All I would guess, including the attorneys. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

I have no legal obligation to pay your state's tax on things I buy from an out-of-state seller. #That is something that varies from state to state. #In my state, the law to tax mail order and internet purchases has been passed but suspended while administrative things are worked out.

This whole issue seems pretty clear. #There are laws. #There are ethics. #You can choose to follow them or not. #But don't expect others to accept your justification if you choose not to. #Don't expect any sympathy if you get caught and are prosecuted. #

I was driving over the speed limit, I choose not to follow the law. #I was stopped. #I paid my fine, I pay my higher insurance. #I don't blame the police officer or the highway department or my insurance company. #Its called taking responsibilty for my actions.

[mrbook]

Last fall, I read that the price of CDs were going down as record companies tried to combat downloading. I haven't seen the prices change at all, perhaps because a few downloaders were successfully sued. I've never downloaded anything, and asked my daughter to stop when I found she was doing it.

I've purchased many used records and CDs - rarely on line, but mainly from stores - and never worried about what the previous owner did with them or why they chose to sell them. It's really not my business (I have enough work taking care of myself) as long as the items weren't stolen, of course.

I've also spent 30 years selling used books, and deal with review and promotional copies now and then. Publishers give a certain number out, like CDs, and do not pay the authors (or musicians) royalties on those copies. They often end up in used book stores, more often in large cities than where I am, but a few reviewers bring books in to sell. I sell them as used books, at considerably less than their original price (often 1/4 to 1/2, whatever I think someone will pay me), even if they look like new, even if they are still wrapped in plastic (how people do reviews of books they don't read is another matter), and pay accordingly. I've had to explain to some people that new books I sell come from a publisher, while used books come from private individuals - I try to explain it in a nice way, but that's how it works. Some reviewers are disappointed, thinking they should get more, but they can deal with someone else. I'm not sure they have a right to sell things they get for free (one reviewer had to come back to purchase a book the publisher wanted back), but I know I should pay people for items I buy to resell.

Sometimes we worry too much when we should be playing music. Publishers and record companies give a lot of free things away without caring where they go, just to say they gave stuff out in promotion. Most of us try to do the right thing, and you usually don't have to ask if it is right.

Buy CDs and tapes from musicians at concerts - it does help pay for gas and food on the way home.

[OlderThanWillie]

Tim-n-VA #-- if your state has a sales tax it most likely has a use tax as well. That means that anything you purchase from out of state becomes taxable as you bring it into your state to use. That applies to automobiles and CD's. The tax is collected by your state, not mine. It doesn't have to be an internet purchase but they are taxable as well. If you buy a car across the state line the tax is usually collected when you register the car. If you buy something that doesn't have to be licensed or registered, it is up to you to declare and pay the tax. Some states exempt the first x number of dollars of tax. Likewise if you buy and sell mandolins as a hobby, any income over expenses is generally taxable as ordinary income and you are required to collect sales taxes on anything you sell within your state.

A completely ethical life is hard to attain.

[cdwhit]

Hmm, I'm not a lawyer or anything (though I am very well read on the copyright laws for several reasons), but it seems that a lot of folks on here are confusing "Ethical" #with "Legal". #

It is, in the USA, LEGAL to:

1. Make working copies of any music you have rights to ( included rented or checked out music ) so long as the copy is destroyed when you loose those rights. #So if I check out an album from the library, and make a copy on CD so I can listen in my car, then destroy the CD when I return the album to the library, I have not done anything illegal. #If I buy a CD, and make a backup copy, it's legal; If I then give the original CD to my girl friend but keep my backup, it's illegal, unless I destroy my backup (or give it to her with the original).

2. Publishers want you to report discard or promo copies being sold. #This includes magazines or paperbacks with the cover torn off, albums with the hole punched in the corner, and CDs with defaced bar codes. #It is NOT illegal to buy them. #It is a violation of contract and possibly illegal to sell them. #At one point in time you could get a reward from some publishers for turning in stores selling the mags and paperbacks with the torn off covers.

3. If I download music from a "legitamate" commercial source, say EMusic or IMusic, I am buying rights just like when I buy a CD. #I can copy so long as I maintain those rights*, but the minute I give a copy away, then I have given away my rights and must either give ALL my copies to the same person, or destroy the extras.
* Some of the music services only allow you to make a certain number of copies, and several forbid transfer of music from that service, that is a matter of CONTRACT between you and the service. #It might be illegal to violate that contract, but it has nothing to do with copyright, just violation of contract.

4. It is legal to download music you have rights to. #So if you own Mettalica's Greatest Hits and decide you'd rather download MP3s of it from Kaazaa that rip your own, that's fine. #The RIAA may not want to believe that, but after you've spent a few thousand on a good lawyer that should be the finding.

5. It is legal to download music you have rights to for other reasons. #For example, public domain music or music from artists that grant license to fans, such as Grateful Deads policy of allow taping of concerts and swapping of tapes non-commercially. #When I see these tapes online, I can download legally.

Ethics is a MUCH greyer area. #My ethics will probably be MUCH different than yours. #Deal with it, it's not against the law. #To my way of thinking it's not ethical for the recording industry to give the artists pennies on the dollar for every CD produced. #I can make an 80 minute music CD at home for less than a dollar (with covers and booklets if available) in less than 10 minutes. #Surely the economics of volume would work to let the record company get by (even with a $20 or $30 and hour pay scale) at less than $2.50 a CD to produce. #Sure the cover artists, sound crew etc worked on it and need paid, but the musicians worked longer and harder and have a higher level skill set, why aren't they getting at lease $5.00 per CD? #The industry claims to promote their artists, but face it, how often do you see an ad for an artist that isn't top 40? #I think the record industry is being VERY unethical.

I also think there are factors that are hard to quantify, therefore are usually left out of the discussion. #I have a very limited music budget. #My membership in EMusic pretty much kills it unless someone gives me gift certificate for Christmas or my Birthday (which IS coming up if anyone is feeling generous). #Whether I can download music or not, that is all I'm going to spend. #I am NOT going to spend it on an artist I'm not familiar with, so I'm not likely to discover new music. I'm only likely to buy music from my FAVORITE artists, and not even all I want from them. #Downloads are free though. #So what if I've never heard of them, download while I sleep, listen, and if I don't like it I delete it. #If I DO like it, it might be my favorite next album. #

Was it ethical for me to download that music, and discover I like that artist I'd never heard of? I think it is. #It is ethical for me to share my discovery? #Once again, I think it is. #Is it ethical for me to burn a hundred copies ( or 25 ) and sell them? #Nope cause then I'm ripping of the artists taking money that might have been used to buy CDs. #Give them away? #My ethics say that is OK, since I am basicall promoting the band, shareling my discovery, and hopefully winning them new fans.

BTW - I know there are a number of pros here so I'd be interested in your take, but a number of folk artists I have known and discussed it with are much more concerned with a large fan base than CD or Tape sales. #They only get a few cents each from sales, but can pull a decent check from a concert or gig if they can pack the house. A couple have gone so far as to tell me (in private, it was probably violating every agent and record contract they had) to distribute copies and let the people know next time the artist was playing in town.

To confuse the issue even more... I know of at least one artist (Steven Fromholz) that had a contract with a record comoany. Him and the record company had a disagreement, and the record company stopped producing his records (which are sold out everywhere). He can't produce and sell copies because as per standard contract he has turned over rights to a member of the RIAA. The record company won't make any more to sell because Steve doesn't work and play well others. So the vast majority of his work is now gone, not legally available except occasionally as OLD used albums and cassette tapes (I think the problem arose befre CDs became as common, so there may not be any CDs). Not only is he being deprived of income from the sales of the music, but there are also less people to go see him in concert since there are no current CD's for radio stations to play, so they are depriving him of income from live performances too. Is this ethical for the record company to do this? If I had a collection of his Albums, would it be ethical (It would be illegal, no doubt, but I'm asking ETHICAL) to copy them up on usenet where he might get more people to show up at his next gig?

While the issues can be complex, generally it is possible to figure out what is legal. #Ethics are less exportable. #They depend on moral standards which can legitimately vary from one person and/or group to another.

We seem - in these discussions - to be mixing the instances when someone says you can have what I own (that is, you can copy my music and distribute it) and when you decide that you can have what I own (you copy and distribute my music without my permission). #Some artists want their work freely distributed. #Some don't. #You can't use the Grateful Dead's policy for all artists.

I don't think a completely ethical life is hard to obtain. #It is hard for me to live by your ethics. #Its hard for you to live by mine.

It does appear that the recording industry has some strange pay structures. #But, no one forced any artist to sign a contract with a record company.

Willie - My state does have a use tax. #My only point was that this varies from state to state and doesn't work in Virginia exactly like you describe.