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LKN2MYIS
Jan-13-2005, 7:11am
I often read on this site of the end pin pulling out and the instrument dropping to the floor.

I'll be getting an F4 (shortly to be made).

I was wondering if it makes sense to have a piece of leather at the end of the strap, insert it THROUGH the end pin hole up to the oval hole, tie a knot in it, and let that seat inside the body at the end pin hole.

Seems to me like this would stop the end pin popping-out problem. The problem I see is the tying and untying of the know each time you put the strap on, which really isn't a big deal.

Does this method make any sense at all or have I been up too long?

AlanN
Jan-13-2005, 7:17am
Your very idea was graphically depicted by Grisman in one of his books as "the" fool-proof method, so you're in good stead. Certainly a workable solution, albeit a bit home-grown...

LKN2MYIS
Jan-13-2005, 7:19am
Nice to know.

Do you know where he talks about it? I'd like to read or see it.

Thanks!

J. Mark Lane
Jan-13-2005, 7:21am
Why don't you just get one of these:

http://www.soundtoearth.com/prod_tailpieces.htm

Quote from the Weber site: "The machined end-pin/bolt will never accidentally fall out and drop your instrument to the floor."

I have two of these on instruments, and I like them. Would have benefited a certain Gilchrist I read about here recently.

Mark

LKN2MYIS
Jan-13-2005, 7:24am
Mark -
Seems like a good idea, but I kind of like the tail piece that comes on the Pomeroy.

And this Weber quote really stains my Haines:

"Our one-piece cast tailpiece is designed to fit Weber instruments. Although it may easily fit other instruments, we are not responsible for any problems or structural damage resulting from a retrofit on a non-Weber instrument."

AlanN
Jan-13-2005, 7:27am
It's in his 10 Tunes in 9 Keys book, long out-of-print. Put out in '76 and updated in '78 to include 2 more tunes, it's a neat little book which notes out (and tab) common and seeds-of-Dawg-music tunes, such as Soldier's Joy, Done Gone, Sally Johnson/Katy Hill, Japan, Boston Boy, etc. Came with a cassette, as I recall. I think Darol Anger did the pencil drawings and one of them was of the strap method you describe.

LKN2MYIS
Jan-13-2005, 7:29am
Thanks, Alan.

Dennis Schubert
Jan-13-2005, 8:15am
Been usin' that method for years, with a wooden bead that will barely fit thru the F-hole imbedded in the knot as a fail-safe enhancement. Rather than tying a thong onto your strap, use a long leather work-shoe lace and tie the other end to your F-style "strapholder" or run it under the fingerboard and around the small end of the body on your A-style. That way, you can buy two straps for about $2.86 at WalMart.

LKN2MYIS
Jan-13-2005, 8:17am
That bead is a great idea!

J. Mark Lane
Jan-13-2005, 9:08am
Mark -
#Seems like a good idea, but I kind of like the tail piece that comes on the Pomeroy.

#And this Weber quote really stains my Haines:

# "Our one-piece cast tailpiece is designed to fit Weber instruments. #Although it may easily fit other instruments, we are not responsible for any problems or structural damage resulting from a retrofit on a non-Weber instrument."
Well, blame the lawyers for that <g>.

The thing fits just fine on other instruments. It's just a tailpiece. The one thing you do have to be aware of, and perhaps this is their concern, is that the endpin hole needs to be a little larger for the Weber endpin to fit. You can use that Weber tailpiece with a traditional endpin, and I suppose you could probably use the Weber endpin with other tailpieces (never tried it, might invole slightly enlarging the hole). For mine, I just popped a bit in the drill and reamed out the hole a tiny bit. Then, when you put the endpin in, then tighten it down, it pulls a rubber piece up tight inside the hole, and that is what holds it in place. Works great.

Mark

LKN2MYIS
Jan-13-2005, 9:24am
How much did you drill out? I would be tempted to wrap some extra fine sandpaper around the endpin and rotate it instead.

BTW, I agree that comment was probably added by the lawyers. However,I also think that the comment you quoted was added by a company trying to sell a product. In my mind, they cancel each other out.

J. Mark Lane
Jan-13-2005, 9:40am
Uh, ok.

Anyway, it was a very small amount that I had to enlarge the hole. You can't just put sandpaper on the new piece, because it's too big to fit in the hole. It might work to put paper on the old piece and rotate it, but traditional endpins are tapered (and presumable so is the hole), whereas the Weber is round. So really the best way is to drill it, imo.

Of course, on a custom instrument you could just have the Weber piece delivered to the luthier for original installation, which is what I did on my Morris F4.

It's just a thought. There are many ways to skin this cat, I think.

Mark

jim simpson
Jan-13-2005, 9:45am
The first time I met Roland White, he handed his Randy Wood "Gibson" to me to check out. I noticed his strap was threaded through the sound hole and knotted. I commented on this to which he stated that it prevented accidents. It seemed funny to me till I nearly crashed a couple of mandolins when the pin would pop loose. I usually glue the loose ones in although I have since read the warning that the tailblock could crack as a result of the glued in fit. So far so good.

Bob A
Jan-13-2005, 10:31am
Another good reason to use Dawg's method is the fact that if you happen to bump the endpin against something, the pin can (and has, on occasion) act as a splitting wedge, and crack your endblock.

Professor PT
Jan-13-2005, 12:14pm
I've never taken an end pin out of any of my mandolins: aren't they screwed in like on a guitar? How are they anchored in there? It seems if they were screwed in, the chances they'd pop out would be next to nil.

peterbc
Jan-13-2005, 12:24pm
Guitars are normally also tapered. I've got a Taylor style endpin on my Martin because it didn't have anything when I got it and the whole had been reamed out for a pickup. It screws in.

On my mandolin I found out about a neat trick. It had dried out and my endpin was falling out, so a friend pulled out a dollar bill, ripped a tiny triangle off of it and put that in on the side of the pin while putting it in. It's stuck great since then!

mandolooter
Jan-13-2005, 12:51pm
I found that by applying generous amounts of super glue to my belly/lower chest area that I no longer have a need for a strap and now my mandobaby is always with me like it should be. Plus I made $80.00 selling the case which wasn't needed!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

TommyK
Jan-13-2005, 1:16pm
"...
BTW, I agree that comment was probably added by the lawyers. However,I also think that the comment you quoted was added by a company trying to sell a product. In my mind, they cancel each other out."
More than likely, it was necessitated by some gorilla who tried to install the aftermarket end pin with 2# maul. Then when he split his Rogue all the way to the nut, demanded restitution, pain and suffering. Probably in California.

LKN2MYIS
Jan-13-2005, 1:19pm
Who knows.

My opinion with any business is that:

- most will say whatever it takes to sell a product

- their lawyers will state that they never said that

I go by recommendation and common sense, thus the post.

Lots of good advice and thanks to all!

J. Mark Lane
Jan-13-2005, 1:19pm
"...
BTW, I agree that comment was probably added by the lawyers. However,I also think that the comment you quoted was added by a company trying to sell a product. In my mind, they cancel each other out."
More than likely, it was necessitated by some gorilla who tried to install the aftermarket end pin with 2# maul. #Then when he split his Rogue all the way to the nut, demanded restitution, pain and suffering. #Probably in California.
LOL! Yeah, and in California, he probably got it, too.

mandoJeremy
Jan-13-2005, 8:22pm
I'll give you a similar little trick that Buck White showed me and he said that Skaggs showed him. Take a small piece of leather bootstring and lace it through the strap's hole and then under the tailpiece. If the strap button lets go you still have this little safety harness under the tailpiece that is attached to the strap. I hope that makes sense.

mandolooter
Jan-13-2005, 9:25pm
It does and sounds like a great idea, now how Im gonna get this Givens off my chest!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Im gonna set mine up like that. That Gil thread was heartbreaking.

mandoJeremy
Jan-13-2005, 9:33pm
Trust me, within the first month of owning my Bush model the strap let go and broke the headstock in the same place. #Also, my favorite Chestnut mandolin I had was broken in the same place because the stupid case lid closed on it. #That was years ago and I was just stupid for not placing the mando in the case as it should fit! #Just a quick "be back in a minute great mando" and boom...no scroll on the headstock. #Of course when Gibson refinished the Bush in varnish the crack line is nearly invisible and that is another story on how it happened! #I did have it reglued and clamped the same day I broke it by a local luthier who used to work for Gruhns. #And YES, it is very heartbreaking!

mandolooter
Jan-13-2005, 9:39pm
Its TOO easy and the problem is gone for good!
I don't wanna add that to my list of advice I ignored and then payed for dearly...that list is already too long!
Thanks Jeremey

Greenmando
Jan-14-2005, 3:24am
I've never taken an end pin out of any of my mandolins: #aren't they screwed in like on a guitar? #How are they anchored in there? #It seems if they were screwed in, the chances they'd pop out would be next to nil.
Normal end pins have a taper cut and just fit with friction. The one in my F9 is just right, the one in my A9 is really tight and the one in my Flatiron Festival F is really loose.
The Weber tailpiece, of which I have one, has a end pin with metal machine threads on it. Near perfection.

Mike Crocker
Jan-14-2005, 5:11am
A strap lock system like the old Pick Boy or the current Shaller works well if you're not adverse to screw in buttons and the lock on the strap. I use them on all my electric instruments and some acoustics. They're a long way from traditional, but they're secure. Available in black if chrome turns you off.

As I've said elsewhere, the tapered pin is old technology which has a great vibe and look, but not the best practical function from a health and safety perspective. Give me a screw in button and a strap lock any day.

Peace, Mooh.

Stephen Perry
Jan-16-2005, 7:52am
Who knows.

My opinion with any business is that:

- most will say whatever it takes to sell a product

- their lawyers will state that they never said that

I go by recommendation and common sense, thus the post.

Lots of good advice and thanks to all!
Seems like nonsense to me. Certainly doesn't apply to the businesses I deal with. I'm the lawyer for at least two businesses referred to in this board. I own another.

I haven't run into intentional misrepresentation or anything but mild puffing in the majority of the music industry. I haven't run into ####### lawyers in the musical instrument industry, either. One of the reasons I like it.

Most disclaimers have a good reason. Things get resolved ahead of time. Webber tailpiece holes may not line up with the originals. The outline may not line up. The hole does indeed need to be reamed. So chances for damage exist. Webber merely doesn't want to be sued for the acts of some idiot end user or sloppy luthier. Makes sense to me. I don't want to be sued by some idiot end user or sloppy closet luthier! I enclose a sheet with all my violins indicating that messing with the setup is a bad idea and I'll charge to fix it.

Steve

LKN2MYIS
Jan-16-2005, 8:08am
Different experiences result in different belief systems.

mike_c
Jan-19-2005, 11:26pm
i always put ONE drop of hyde glue on the endpin of my mandolins..works great