More on Tone

[goose 2]

The Loar vs Modern tone thread got me tinking about this. #I think there is also a very big difference between the tone of a prewar D-18 and a D-28. #Personally, I prefer the tone of the D-18. #To me, and in mandolin terms, the D-18 tone has more Loar characteristics than the D-28. #The D-28 resembles more the Modern mandolin tone. Just curios, who out there that prefers the Modern mandolin tone also prefers the D-28 sound? #How many Modern mando #fans perfer the D-18 tone? #Same for the Loar afficionados. #How many prefer the D-18? #The #D-28? #I realize the list of people who have done a fair amount of pickin' on a Loar and a prewar #Martin is kinda small, so if you have done some pickin' on a Master Model or those killer Martin Golden Eras then please chime in. #
If there are any correlations then maybe the acoustic scientists on the board can explain it all to us.

[dtb]

man, you're right on track. I hope to be able to do a little comparison real soon. I play a 2000 model HD-28, and it's great for backing up and playing bluegrass. But one of my picking pals found a '42 D-18, and currently it is with Ward Elliott for a do-over, set-up, etc. He just talked with Ward over the holidays, and is expecting it back within Jan. I'll post when I get to play it. Now, for the difference in tone, concerning mandos. I couldn't help cause I've never been honored to hold an old Gibson mando.

Dan

[J. Mark Lane]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. Martin has made both the D-18 and the D-28 since the early 1930's. The difference is not one of age, but of the woods used -- the D-18 is a mahogany bodied instrument, and the D-28 is a rosewood instrument (Brazilian up until about 1971, I think, then EIR after that).

The desirability of pre-War Martins is of course indisputable, but the reason for it may be subject to some debate. My own opinion is that the market for such instruments was enhanced during a fairly long period when Martin was making mediocre guitars (1970's though much of the 80's). In addition, the woods used in the older instruments were in some respects superior, including Adirondack for many tops, and Brazilian for the 28's. Also, instruments that have survived that long do tend to have a great, developed tone, due to whatever mysterious process underlies that "opening-up" phenomenon.

Still, imo, the guitars coming out of Nazareth today are the best the company has ever made. The best ones are not in the Standard Series (althoguh those are really very good instruments), but in various special lines (including the HD and the GE lines). Martin is at the top of its game. If I were looking to spend a few grand on a guitar right now, I would probably get a D-18GE, or possibly a CEO IV.

Ah, but this ia a mandolin board, isn't it?

Mark

[Pete Martin]

From what I've seen, the best new instruments are better than the older instruments in terms of quality and sound. #Do they sound as good now? #No. #It take years of hard playing AND aging the wood for an instrument to sound their best. #

A friend sold me his 43 D18 (the best sounding I've heard) to buy a new Collings D28 type. #It is the most amazing new instrument I've ever heard. #The only thing is doesn't have is age.

Needless to say, I'm very happy he sold the D18 http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Harry H]

Goose,

Guitar content:
First of all, obviously, pre-war D-18s and 28s don't sound the same
as their post-war counterparts, though I agree with Mark that Martin is building the best guitars they ever have. The Golden Era guitars are great.

Having said that, somtimes Martin doesn't 'remember' what #the exact specs really were and accordingly may not duplicate them correctly! #

[I have played a lot of cool Golden Era Martins, but none of them sound like the pre-war models.If anybody wants to know why,
mail me and I'll give you the excruciating particulars, that involve
mapping out the bracing patterns of a '37 D-28 and a '38 D-18]

Think about the warm sound that a D-18 gets compared to a
D-28. You know, you're sitting in the kitchen, the D-18 is just
filling up the room with that big 'mid' #mahogany sound, whereas
a D-28 #sounds all bass and treble by comparison?
A D-18 sounds better in the kitchen, doesn't it?

When does a D-28 sound better? When you are in a multi-instrumental situation and the guitar needs to cut through,
right? That's when a D-28 is King!

Mando content:
So, with respect, my version of #the
'D-18/D-28 comparison to mandolins'
is not Loar vs. Modern,
but F-4 vs. F-5,
oval-hole vs. f-hole.
Oval holes sound warm and great, they just don't cut through as
good as an F-5 do they? In my mind, an F-4 sound has more in
common with a D-18 and an F-5 has more in common with a D-28.

To me, the difference in Loar vs. Modern is in the character of the
sound; Loars and the contemporary makers that pay attention to
Loar have a more complicated voice than say, a Collings mando
(the most ubiquitous of the Modern mandos). It isn't that Collings
don't sound great, it's that there's more 'stuff' going on in a
Loar or Loar-inspired instrument.

[goose 2]

I agree, the comparison of a mahognany vs a rosewood guitar does not make much sense because they are made of different wood. I was just wondering which model, the 18 or the 28, was preferred by those that like the Modern tone best. Same question for the Loar fan.

I would be interested in hearing the spec differences between the prewars and the Golden Eras. I have logged time on both and must say, those Golden Eras are pretty amazing.

Back to mandos. . . Harry, I had the time of my life the other night checking out the Gils. That A model gives me chill thinking about it. . .Thanks again!!!

[Harry H]

Sir Goose,

Here's what I think!

Guitar content:
I like D-28s better than D-18s, though I've played one D-18 from the '30's that was a breathtakingly wonderful guitar.

One small thought about Golden Era D-18s.
Last year, my luthier fixed up a '51 D-18 for me; neck set, small top
cracks, re-glue on the bridge and new frets. It turned out to be a very good guitar. Guess what? A friend's 5 year old Golden Era
D-18 sounded better when I compared them. They were real close, but the Golden Era D-18 had more energy, more 'snap'.

I sold the '51 to Intermountain Banjo. They told me it opened up
later and became, 'a cannon!' Intermountain sold it to David Rawlings, who plays with Gillian Welch. I'm sure that '51 opened up more (the glue dried, it got played, etc.), but I'm also thinkin' David would have liked that Golden Era D-18.

For what it's worth, I also like Gibson J-45s and 50s better than 18s.

Mando content:
I used to think I knew what the Modern sound was.
All I can say is that I like the two Loars I've played and the great
majority of Gilchrists I've played, very much. I have played one
spectacular Monteleone, a Radio Flyer and some other good ones. I have a friend who has a good Nugget (It might sound
really good if he broke down and played it!). I played a Wiens
that sounded real good at a show. I'd like to play another one.

If, as I mentioned earlier, a Collings has the Modern sound,
then I like them, but not as much as Gilchrists or Loars.

I hope some more people answer your tone query!

HH

PS Glad you liked the only 'Northern Regional Texas Gilchrist Chapter Convocation and Meeting' held this Millenium!
Next time, we'll do it in Austin and dig up some more
axes to listen to and play. No Loars, but you'll have fun.
Thanks for bringing the Master Model, we all enjoyed hearing it. My drummer had a great time listening to you and McCarthy play
mandos together!