Vicarious violinism

[vkioulaphides]

My 7-year-old bundle of joy plays violin; I, supportive musician-father that I at least try to be, supervise. In absentia filiae, I play through her music on the mandolin. She seems amused by my vicarious violinism, at the very least.

Say... has anyone gone cover-to-cover through Sevcik? Most interesting, most helpful. Yes, let us bypass the obvious, i.e. that bowing is of cardinal importance to violin-playing, that pick mechanics are the Alpha and Omega of mandolin-playing, etc., etc. Still, what a wonderful body of work violinists have in learning their "fingerboard geography"! Especially as they have no frets to rely on, they seem to have a truly enormous, monumental amount of educational materials to develop their kinesthetic sense.

So, what else might one look at? In my mando-prehistory, i.e. before I met you kind and gentle folk at the Café a few years back, I lived on Kreutzer; that was my only "text". Beyond that, I was (and, deo volente, hope to remain for the rest of my life) a "player of songs" on the mandolin, not of truly instrumental compositions for it.

I suspect dear Linda will suggest —what else?— Hrimaly. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Then? Mazas? Kayser? Viotti? I am all ears... (and fingers needing to be taught)

[Jim M.]

Good luck to your daughter! My 8-yr. old daughter is about to start on violin. My 12-yr. old son has been playing guitar since he was 5, and it's very fun seeing him develop and playing duets with him.

Ivan Galamian seems to be the top dog around here when it comes to instructional materials. I've worked on some of his stuff; it is good but very challenging. It includes working on double-stops up to a 10th (ouch). I'm not interested in being a classical violin soloist anymore, so I'm not making an effort to work through it all.

[margora]

Victor: I agree re: Violin instructional materials. On a recent visit to Johnson String Instruments in MA, I purchased a copy of T. Presser's CD "Violin Methods and Studies" for ca. $20. This contains THOUSANDS of pages of violin pedagogic material, including Sevcik, etc. Probably you can pick this up on Ebay for a bit less.

[John Craton]

I'll second margora's recommendation of the CD Sheet Music series. It's all public-domain material but with many superb classics that would cost you literally thousands of dollars in printed form. In addition to the Violin Methods/Studies CD, I'd also suggest their Violin Sonatas and Violin Concertos CDs (which even includes Nielsen and Prokofiev — try playing those on the mandolin!).

As for printed studies, the list is almost limitless. Wohlfahrt is excellent, then Kreutzer, Mazas, Fiorillo (probably not very mandolin-friendly), the Locatelli caprices, Rode, Kayser, Laoureux, Sitt ... many of these are on the CD, though. Max Fischel (my teacher's teacher) published a very good four-volume violin method many moons ago, but it's sadly out of print. You can sometimes find copies on eBay. Josephine Trott's Melodious Double Stops is also an excellent resource. Even if you don't use these yourself on mando, your daughter eventually will need them anyway — anything to justify spending money on music!

The Flesch scale books seem to have become today's bible for scales, though I was brought up with Hrimaly and still teach them.

As for Sevcik, he's someone I assign in small doses. Sevccik made no attempt to make his exercises intersting or often even melodic. They are exectly what they're titled: exercises. I equate a session with Sevick with a workout at the gym (which, of course, I never do). It's drudgery, but very beneficial. Sevcik himself was a pedant in every since of the word, and a hard taskmaster to boot. It is said that he used to take an early morning stroll each day, and as he passed his student's houses without hearing them playing would rap on their window with his cane and shout "Get up and practice!" He burned out a lot of potential talent in his day and only had two students go on to international fame, one of them the phenomenal Jan Kubelik. It is believed Kubelik survived by breaking beyond the pure technical aspects of Sevcik's teaching and actually learning musicianship.

But, as usual, I digress. In summary, there are indeed many wonderful violin studies that work well for the development of good mandolin technique, though of course you'll have to ignore the bowings and often the fingerings as well. Still, I'd love to see (or publish) a really good, comprehensive method for mandolin in the English tongue. Still waiting for any takers on that project.

[bratsche]

Well, I've always been partial to the Campagnoli 41 Caprices (and they're musical and enjoyable, to boot!) but I admit it's been years since I practiced them. Good mandola training, perhaps?

bratsche

[margora]

Re: mandolin methods in English, Marilyn Mair debuted her new method at CMSA. I believe it is complete or nearly so; I don't know if she has a publisher yet.

[vkioulaphides]

Ehm, John... talk to Marilyn? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

While I certainly would not impose my own pedantry on anyone else, I must confess having a preference for the perhaps musically dry but mechanically thorough. After all, not all music NEEDS to be Mozart; get the "hardware" moving properly with Sevcik, then just play Mozart!

Ah, Flesch... the spirit is willing BUT... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif As far as scales are concerned, Hrimaly is good— eventually. The very first scale-books teachers assign —on just about ANY instrument!— are take-offs on Gabriel Pares' principles. Ultimately, it's the music that takes one around the fingerboard, not whatever "Bible" one has been taught.

Thank you all. Food for thought, especially the CD idea from T(heodore) Presser. Will think further on this...

[John Craton]

Ehm, John... talk to Marilyn? #
Indeed, that caught my eye. Anyone know how to contact her? (You can send me a private message if you're uncomfortbale publishing her e-mail address.)

Also re Sevcik: After re-reading my post, I may have come across as being somewhat anti-Sevcik. Au contraire. I simply meant to impress upon someone first coming to Sevick not to expect a series of "fun" pedagogical pieces. His exercises are excellent, though mostly unmusical in themselves. I rarely have a student go through Sevcik page by page but rather assign various exercises that address particular techniques a student may need to work on. Hence my "small doses" admonition. Some people may actually enjoy them, just as some people enjoy lifting weights or running on a treadmill — though personally I can't imagine why. But whether enjoyed or not, all are very helpful in developing strength and ability. Don't discard the wealth of benefit to be found in Sevcik.

[vkioulaphides]

John, I believe that Robert M. (margora) has attended some of Marilyn's seminars; contact him, or wait until he contacts you. He should have some contact info.

And no, I don't expect the International Sevcik Antidefamation League to prosecute you on the above grounds. Such materials are rarely "enjoyable" in the commonly held sense of the word. Simply put: If, in trying to play some piece that you DO enjoy, you stumble on a passage that twists your fingers and thwarts your ability to make the music you want with it, then a remedial visit to Mr. Sevcik can indeed be beneficial. I am sure you and I are of one mind on this.

I, for one, hope to spend some of my holiday free time on Sevcik. Far more challenging, I have to provide guitar parts to two of my arrangements, which is like asking me to work my way around a country whose language I have not spoken regularly for 30 years or more. Should be fun... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Plamen Ivanov]

"Victorius violinism"... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I grew up with lot of Wohlfahrt studies... A little bit hard for my 2-months old son http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Good luck!

[vkioulaphides]

Congratulations to you and spouse, and Merry (first) Chrismas to your son! Yes, they do need to learn how to stand before we inflict musical instruments and all that goes with them upon our offspring! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[margora]

To continue this for a bit longer, I have been dipping into Flesch's mammoth book on violin fingerings. I don't have the expertise to evaluate its importance in the literature on violin pedagogy and performance but it is nonetheless fascinating and insightful -- and there is certainly nothing like it for classical guitar or, needless to say, mandolin.

[John Craton]

I don't expect the International Sevcik Antidefamation League to prosecute you on the above grounds.
Victor, don't say such things too loudly. I know some Meyerbeer fanatics who would probably start up a nonprofit organization just to prosecute his detractors if given the concept. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[NYClassical]

To continue this for a bit longer, I have been dipping into Flesch's mammoth book on violin fingerings. #I don't have the expertise to evaluate its importance in the literature on violin pedagogy and performance but it is nonetheless fascinating and insightful -- and there is certainly nothing like it for classical guitar or, needless to say, mandolin.
I'm new, here, so please forgive me if this has been discussed in the past, but I am curious: how many people here come from a violin background, and how many from guitar (and how many come from a 3rd background)? I'm wondering if there is a 'violin' school of thought for mandolin fingering and a more 'guitar/fretted instrument' approach. I spoke with an established mandolinist who is also a guitarist, and he told me that he had figured out an approach that worked very well, and that it differed from most violinists approaches? Any thoughts?

[Eugene]

I come from a horribly informal guitar background, and I appoach the left hand more like a guitarist than most mandolinists (outside of Germany).

[vkioulaphides]

NYClassical, welcome aboard! Say, are you indeed located in NYC? Duets, some day? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

In answer to your question: In my mind, the mandolin is essentially a picked violin— more or less. The arguments begin as MY "more" is someone else's "less". http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

The pro: the two instruments have (roughly) the same scale; they are tuned the same; 99%of violin fingerings transfer immediately to the mandolin. Left hand -wise, they are effectively identical, from the mechanical standpoint; musical choices may well favor fingering A over fingering B.

The con: the violin is really, really all about the bow; the mandolin, all about the pick. The "sound generator" is the crucial element, not the sounding string-length, as manipulated by the left hand.

As Eugene suggests, the "German New School" of mandolin-playing is more "guitaristic" than the original, Neapolitan school. I will not enter into the pros and cons of the two schools. Suffice it to say that the mandolin, with its wonderfully casual, amateur culture, certainly allows of any and every way of playing you can bring to it.

Enjoy!

[NYClassical]

Yes-- in NYC-- would love to get together when we can both find time. Thanks for the feedback!

[Jim Garber]

I am of both schools but both more the reform school variety. Actually neither #my guitar playing nor my fiddling has much to do with classical training but more the folk music. Therefore I lack the discipline that others have.

BTW, NYClassical, it would be nice to know your real name. We aren't so formal here. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I am also in the greater NY area, but would not venture to offer duets, since Victor and I may actually do it this weekend, barring unforeseen circumstances. Hectic schedules have kept us from getting together for a few years.

Jim

[NYClassical]

BTW, NYClassical, it would be nice to know your real name. We aren't so formal here. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
My name's Adam. I put that on my profile...wasn't quite sure of how things worked around here, so I just wanted to ease into it. Also, I have plenty of guitar experience, but mandolin is relatively new to me, so I figured I would start with a low profile. I'd love to meet up with you guys sometime.

[Arto]

Hi Eugene,
you caused me to be curious. Are there some basic differences in LEFT hand use in "Italian" and "German" schools? Sitting position, picks, strings, some preferences in picking action - yes, but left hand?

thanks, Arto

[Eugene]

My general impression is that the Italian and derived historic American camps are more prone to hold a mandolin neck in approximately violin-like fashion, thumb above the neck's crest. The German camp is more prone to hold a mandolin neck in guitar-like fashion, thumb balanced against fingers positioned at the crest of the neck.

[John Craton]

99%of violin fingerings transfer immediately to the mandolin. Left hand -wise, they are effectively identical,
I'm no authority, being neither of the Italian nor German schools (I guess you could define my limited technique as the "Craton school"), but I'll throw in my one-and-a-half cent's worth.

I have found left-hand position on mandolin somewhat between the violin and guitar hold. My thumb does not rest on the crest, but it does usually reside considerably lower on the neck than on the violin. (There are actually a few pieces that require using the thumb to play a note on the G string of the violin, though thankfully only rarely.) The angle of the wrist is also slightly more guitar-like than violinistic, especially when playing multiple stops.

Never having played a guitar to any degree worth mentioning, I have only the violin technique to compare. I don't know if I'd go along with the 99% figure as regards violin fingerings on the mando, but by far most violin fingerings do transfer respectably well to the mando. I suppose one could play the mando efficiently using almost nothing but standard violin fingerings, but I do find myself using a good deal more alternate fingerings on mando as opposed to violin. If I had to give a figure (and I'm probably being typical "violin anal" on this), I'd say the percentage of transferrable fingerings would be probably nearer 90-95%. Alternate fingerings are especially used (by me, at least) in the higher positions, particularly on the G string. I just cannot produce the desired tone in 5th, 6th, or 7th positions on the G string that one would typically expect from the violin. Maybe that's just a fault of my technique. I also use the lowered fourth finger more often on mando where an extended third finger would be used on violin (say, for playing C# on G). As another example, take the Beethoven C Major Sonatina. The opening measures would work best on violin in 2nd position only, but I find it much easier on mando by starting in 1st position and then shifting to 2nd position on the first G on the E string. My fingerings on the Sarasate Playera, for instance, are also significantly different depending on which instrument I play it on. Triple and quadruple (and sometimes even double) stops also I frequently finger differently on mando than I would on violin.

But, as always, fingerings are often unique to each individual player. I always encourage my students to use the fingerings that are most comfortbale for them, so long as it still provides the tone and phrasing that they should be producing.

[NYClassical]

cool. i guess there might even be two things here: one is fingering, and the other is left-hand position. the whole thumb thing made me think of this. in guitar playing there is quite a range of technique. most folk and rock players have a more "relaxed" postion, where the fingers of the left hand fall kind of diagonally on the fingerboard, and the thumb is readily available to stop notes on the bass strings. the position looks more like a violinist's. this is a big no-no in classical playing, basically because it doesn't work. because of the instrument, the fingers instead need to be perpendicular to the fingerboard and always land on the tips, even when stretches are involved. of course, none of this is set in stone (i believe) and it always pays to study several approaches and come up with what works for you.
i do find that the classical guitar-like position (tip of thumb on neck, hand arched, and fingers perpendicular to the fingerboard, landing on the tips) gives a lot of strength and security, which is often needed on fretted instruments.
however, i'm finding on the mandolin that i can't be too guitaristic, because the tuning means more stretches, and the scale allows for it....hmmmm.....make sense?

[Jim Garber]

I do not think that the strict classical guitar position works at all on the mandolin. The neck it much too narrow for it.

Munier shows this left hand position (attached).

Carlo subscribes to approximately that with movement of the thumb also following the positions. he also mentions the Paganini method where the thumb remains in the lower position and the other fingers stretch to meet the higher notes. I am never sure ofthe use of this but some may find it useful.

Jim

[NYClassical]

I would agree that you are shooting yourself in the foot if you try to use a strict classical guitar left hand position. i just find that there is some good to be taken from it-- namely the leverage of the fingers. i just find that if i get too diagonal or i lose some of that.

also, i have big hands....but compared to that picture, my hand is MUCH bigger! maybe the instrument represented would have had a larger neck than a modern instrument?

[etbarbaric]

I thought I'd jump in WRT left hand position. I have been down most roads... and a few blind alleys.

As I've said, I come from a violin background... so my first mandolin approximations were with a largely violinistic left hand which seemed to work well. I then tried to convince myself (for quite a while) to follow the Germanic "guitar-like" left hand with the fingers more perpendicular to the strings. This didn't work nearly as well, IMHO, though with their broad-necked instruments, the Germans seem to do a convincing job of it. I then took up the lute and mandolino... which definitely require the latter approach.

Ultimately different instruments take different left-hand techniques. I now play Neapolitan and Cremonese instruments (those tuned in fifths) with the more violinistic left-hand position. There seems to be ample 18th and 19th-century support for this. This position also gives you the reach you need to cover the larger fingerboard real estate brought on by tuning in fifths.

On the mandolino(s) tuned in forths, the lute-like or guitar-like left-hand position is definitely required. Working through period music makes this abundantly clear. The close ties of the mandolino and archlute also imply this as well.

Now using both styles on different instruments seems completely natural... as usual, it just took me a while to get there.

My theory, at least, is that the music ultimately shapes the hand.

Eric

[Bob A]

It has been mentioned by people in a better position to know than myself that the construction of the mandolin neck can also favor technique. Roman (Embergher style) instruments have a narrower, deeper neck, with a radiussed fretboard, while the Neapolitan instruments have a wider, flat board. The Roman style is held to be perhaps preferable for violin-like musical styles, while the wider neck would be more conducive to a more chordal style. Sparks (I think) stated that performers who favored the music of Calace, for example were seldom found using Roman instruments; while the Romanesque players would not attempt the hairier pieces of Calace's works in concert.

I'm plagued by neither concern; thankfully my skill level is well beneath this level of performance, so I can play whatever instrument catches my fancy, albeit poorly.

[NYClassical]

i think you hit the nail on the head with :

5ths: more violin-like position
4ths: more guitar-like position


mastering both would be good thing, i would guess, so you could apply each when needed.

[John Craton]

thankfully my skill level is well beneath this level of performance, so I can play whatever instrument catches my fancy, albeit poorly.
Dittos! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[etbarbaric]

mastering both would be good thing, i would guess, so you could apply each when needed.

I agree... these are all generalizations. As I play various instruments I'm continually reminded that I don't hold *any* particular position invariably. The hand has a wonderful ability to pivot and stretch to accomplish different things and we shouldn't pass up opportunities that present themselves. I've been hacking around with Mudara on the Renaissance guitar... and my hand goes through all kinds of extreme positions in order to land the notes. Just don't do silly things that cause pain or tension.

Eric

ps - I'm sure this is *no* news to a guitarist.

[vkioulaphides]

Despite all the different angles and views that have been presented so far, I agree with ALL of them! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

John (operaguy), I wouldn't be able to argue my 99% vs. your 90-95% in any meaningful way. I do, however, use the extended ring-finger on the 6th fret routinely, just as a violinist would. Again, you know all the theory (and all the tedium that goes with it), ring-finger on C#, up to D on the 7th fret with the pinky, vs. pinky on the 6th fret as D-flat, down to C-natural with the ring-finger, etc., etc. etc. Also, high positions on the G-course are, ahm... not terribly frequent encounters in my mando-life.

NYClassical, all my biases, goofy as they may seem (and perhaps BE), are to be understood in the context of handling a Neapolitan bowlback, with its round-ish, narrow-ish neck, not a carved instrument with its more guitaristic specs. You know what I mean...

[Plamen Ivanov]

Hello,

An year ago I was asking here about any information regarding R. Gautiero. I have been playing a lot of mandolin studies written by him, when I was a beginner. I got no replies then and there was just one Internet search result, which didn`t provide any interesting information. Now speaking about methods I tried to search again and I was happy to find out, that Raffaele Gautiero is an author of "METODO PER MANDOLINO NAPOLETANO". It seems, that this is a relative new method, compared to the older Munier, Calace and all the rest, that we know. Anybody seen this book?

Good luck!

[Eugene]

I have not, but I am mighty curious.

[Jim Garber]

Is this the one: Raffaele Gautiero (http://www.halleonard.com/item_detail.jsp?itemid=50013440&order=254&refer=browse&start=M&end=N&catcode=01)?

Jim

[John Craton]

Is this the one:
Yep. I have volume 1 and am trying to get vol. 2, but these special imports often take forever and a day. I haven't used it yet with beginners, though I think it would work well. There are some excellent exercises for the developing player however in nearly all practical keys. (Just to be on the safe side, you might want to confirm the Ricordi edition number which is 2566.)

[Plamen Ivanov]

Thanks John!

I haven`t seen the original book. My mandolin teacher has compiled a mandolin study book and has included some of Gautiero`s pieces. Obviously he has used the original method. I remember, that I liked Gautiero`s excersises very much. Good, that you find it to be useful as well. Is there any additional information regarding his personality?

Good luck!
Plamen

[vkioulaphides]

Just back from Patelson's (New York's "Treasury of Classical Music"), with a truckload of violin music... for my daughter, of course. Ah, The Art of the Lame Excuse... THAT's the text I ought to have authored! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Sevcik, Hrimaly scales (I, too, prefer them to Flesch' occasionally turgid presentation of what ought to be common sense), plus the complete Whistler series; ye violin pedagogues, I trust you know what I mean: modest, commonplace, unremarkable, but sooooo well-paced for the beginner! (... or perpetual beginner, such as myself)

In compensatory gratification for all the ditch-digging materials, Paganini's Sonata (with guitar) and Ugo Orlandi's edition of the five Scarlatti sonatas— all this under the presumption that my daughter allows me to share.

Did anyone ask me what my new year's resolutions were? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Happy New Year to all!

P.S. Oh, did I mention Telemann's Canonic Sonatas? After years of playing them on two basses (!), I look forward to doing them, ehm... at pitch. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Jim, that's a THREAT, my friend...

[NYClassical]

nice!
I'm gonna have to get over there soon http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[vkioulaphides]

Do so! And, when you get your copy of Telemann's 6 Canonic Sonatas, how about we get together and actually play them? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Cheers,

Victor

[NYClassical]

Ok! It's a deal!

Adam