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f5loar
Feb-20-2006, 11:45am
I would think to remove finger smudges from your Loar just a little spit and rub off with your Tshirt would get'er done!

Jason Kessler
Feb-20-2006, 5:56pm
Well, Hendrix occasionally used lighter fluid...

f5loar
Feb-20-2006, 5:58pm
That would be for a lacquer finish!

Jim Hilburn
Feb-20-2006, 6:26pm
Actually, lighter fluid will probably work fine as a cleaner for both lacquer or varnish finishes...as long as you don't ignite it.

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-21-2006, 9:17pm
71059 #This owner has just recentl;y discovered what he has. #This is a wonderful looking instrument

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-21-2006, 9:19pm
next

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-21-2006, 9:21pm
so cool

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-21-2006, 9:22pm
again

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-21-2006, 9:25pm
Oh yes, the very light finish...what a thing to deal with from a finishing standpoint. #I believe that is why they got darker and darker from a corporate $$ time standpoint

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-21-2006, 9:27pm
last..see mandolinarchive.com

Note right angle miter to the FB binding. This is only seen on some '22's

johnwilson
Feb-21-2006, 9:42pm
Dan,

Your new "color corrected" posts are just wondereful. The prints are Cremona brown and don't show even a hint of F-4 redness. Thanks for the extra effort to really preserve the color as it should be.

et al:

When do we expect to hear more about the recordings made at Loar Fest?

danb
Feb-21-2006, 9:48pm
Thanks John, I'm glad I finally got that trick figured out. Recordings.. That's a question for Ken C! The good stuff (ie not my hobbyist ones) were done on stage with Mike Compton and John Reischman doing the tasting

danb
Feb-21-2006, 9:53pm
November 28, 1922 Lloyd Loar Gibson F5 Mandolin #71059 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?5)

mandophil(e)
Feb-21-2006, 10:06pm
Anybody have a chance to play it yet?

MML
Feb-21-2006, 10:08pm
Interesting tuners on 71059, are they originals?, but the windings of the strings bother me http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

danb
Feb-21-2006, 10:13pm
Yes, arrow end tuners don't show up on the very first Loars or snakeheads..

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-21-2006, 10:27pm
Dan is absolutely correct. #The first Loars had wriggle end tuners and they were splayed out at the top. #There are several anomolies that exist regarding how the arrow ends came into play and how the inlay changed to account for it. #But, the June 1, 1922 Loar is "right".. the others (later '22's are not )if that is how we choose to look at it) The arrow ends and "normal" positioning did not show up until Jan/Feb 23

Spruce
Feb-21-2006, 10:28pm
"Note right angle miter to the FB binding. #This is only seen on some '22's "

That is so cool...
Never noticed that one...

Yet another quirk...

Man, 71059 certainly has a vibe...

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-21-2006, 10:31pm
"Note right angle miter to the FB binding. #This is only seen on some '22's "

That is so cool...
Never noticed that one...

Yet another quirk...

Man, 71059 certainly has a vibe...
Yep..a detail seen generally only on Nov 28, 22's and only the exceptionally light colored ones

ARE WE BACK ON THE RIGHT TRACK/PAGE NOW....COOL

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-21-2006, 10:35pm
71062 SHARES MANY SAME TRAITS

ShaneJ
Feb-21-2006, 10:38pm
That recent discovery is one gorgeous mandolin. I REALLY like the lighter burst. I like to see the wood. The back is awesome. That's gotta be one happy owner!

f5loar
Feb-21-2006, 10:41pm
It would be safe to assume this mandolin has not been in bluegrassers hands ever! If those photos had smell to them you would be able to really smell that "loar smell" in that that one. There's probably enough of the smell in that one for Gibson to can some of it and spray it inside several dozen DMMs.

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-21-2006, 10:42pm
As you may can see, 71062 had what was once was considered the "death crack". A crack originating near the tailpiece and projecting toward the bridge. This was the case fr many years.

That picture was taken at Gruhns in about 1980, and that crack is now fairly easily repaired (if it is fairly clean and not a re-repair)

The mandolin in question has been successfully repaired and the crack does not devalue the instrument beyond any normal means.

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-21-2006, 10:46pm
The owner tells me that his parents bought the mandolin from an estate sale in the late '50's or very early '60's. The mandolin did not have a case at the time. The owner says that the mandolin layed on his parents piano as "decoration" for many many years.

It has been under the bed since in some sort of newer, but probably '60's case that his dad bought since.

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-21-2006, 11:13pm
For SJennings..we do not have many documented pics of the 22's, but they are light and yes many think they look great.

Another shot of 71062, not the mando of the hour, but I think they look the same, as these shots were in hot sunlight

Glassweb
Feb-21-2006, 11:38pm
Hey Tommy, I think you're onto something with your idea of creating a "Loar Cologne" of sorts. That smell sure makes ME horny, but mostly for another Loar!
We could call your concoction "Old Loar"... or "Old LLoyd"... or "Eau de F-Hole"...
Maybe you and Big Joe and Charlie D can get this one moving... sign me up for the first bottle! {:o)

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-21-2006, 11:44pm
One last thing before turning in tonight. #Notice how on both of these 22's the "burst" seems to follow a line that indicates the tailpiece was on during the procedure, or some portion of the finishing stage. #This is very interesting, as most of my "finish gripes" have to do with maintaining enough clearance above the tailpiece area to look correct. #23's are a bit darker and this aspect is more clearly defined. The "burst" MUST center around the bridge, and the finisher must know where the bridge is going to be in order for the the finished instrument to look right. #Some may look at this as a minor detail, but it is very specific for Loar mandolins. #They had a "center point". #It only varied with regard to diameter/size. #Again. maybe not a big deal, but I don't see this being adhered to or addressed with todays best instruments if the emphasis is on "Loar spec"

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-21-2006, 11:51pm
And again, I post pics of 73992 as reference point. Rarely does any company or individual leave enough "dark burst" above the tailpiece tip area (as is needed)

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-22-2006, 12:39am
Just my ramblin on details.....so many are so difficult to do or attain..but again, Loar sunbursts are right over the bridge 99% of the time. #This one is at least an inch or so low, and does not have the Loar balance, albeit it is one of the best I've seen.

GTison
Feb-22-2006, 10:18am
is that last one a modern Master Model or a Loar? (Shine, fret position, Scoop, finger rest shape, nice saddle, color) but the label looks like it says '23. I noticed that about many of todays sunburst as well. Another thing that I don't like is a straight line across near the end of the finger board. And some of the Loars have some rather straight line coloration too.

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-22-2006, 10:32am
Agree. But draw your own conclusion on the mando above. Notice how I tactfully photoshopped the tailpiece cover http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

GTison
Feb-22-2006, 10:37am
I did notice that http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Ken Waltham
Feb-22-2006, 12:56pm
One thing that kills me with the MM's.
Notice the way wierd angle that the scroll ridge takes off on. Compare this with all the Loar shots, including Darryl's right above.
They just don't do that. And I have never liked the colour. Totally wrong all the time.
I don't mean to be down on these modern Gibsons, I think they're great, but, these are easy fixes.

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-22-2006, 1:48pm
"And some of the Loars have some rather straight line coloration too. "

Yes, as a matter of fact, a keen eye can often ID pictures of Loars with no serial number noted and even old catalog shots from the shape of the sunburst. #The is usually some straight line swipe or anomoly present. #Note how mine has a swipe above the bass side of the bridge at the f-hole and a "pointer" below the treble side near the tailpiece. #So, as seen in this quite different picture, the mando can be ID'd. This is how we attributed one Loar to Dave Appolon. (along withe fact that it had an aluminum bridge top)

f5loar
Feb-22-2006, 5:05pm
I hope Big Joe is reading all these little details about the new vs. the old. Exact duplicates they are not. And really no two Loars are the same in the sunburst patterns.
Darryl is right, a photo can be matched up to figure out serial number. That's one good reason if any of you Loar owners are out there and your Loar happens to go missing if it turns up with no labels or serial number having it on file with Darryl can ID the mandolin to photos. I've said there are about 50 Loars that are known about but not documented on Darryl's list. Owners want to remain annoymous or just don't keep up with in the know to today's happenings. It's not too late to get on the list and you can always keep your name private through Darryl.
If you notice most of the Loars listed on the archives with photos say owner unknown.

Glassweb
Feb-22-2006, 5:53pm
One thing for us all to keep in mind when we compare the Loar era F5's to the current models is that the current "Gibson" company is in no way, shape or form THE Gibson company that was responsible for the creation of the modern day mandolin and the F5. In the early 1900's, America was overtaken with mando-mania and Gibson's raison d'etre was to produce and promote the worlds finest mandolins. This is what the original company did and they did it EXCEEDINGLY well. We all know that Gibson has been sold and changed hands and direction many times since those early days... and so it's kind of foolish to think that the current owner is going to put all of his company's resources into mandolins. I'd wager that mandolins are only a small part of Gibson's total business.
I agree with Ken Waltham, Tommy and others in their assessment of the current F5 line. While the ones I've played recently sounded quite good, the fit, feel and finish in no way resembles the Loar era instruments. Of course, the current Gibsons are better now than they've been in ages... so at least they're trying. Then again, maybe in fairness I should fly down to Nashville and have Big Joe and Charlie show me how wrong I am!

SurebetVA
Feb-22-2006, 8:00pm
Glassweb, you might find this interview with Gibson's current CEO interesting. No Mandolin content but a lot of discussion on quality. USA Today article Gibson (http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2006-02-20-forum-gibson_x.htm)

sorry to stray from Mando topic. This was in yesterday's USA today I think.

danb
Feb-22-2006, 8:20pm
OK, here's a very-frequently-requested mandolin archive feature.. an automatically generated page that shows all the most recent additions, updated listings, and listings that have recently had pictures added.

This is also a good way to help out.. if there are new images posted here that don't show up in my log, I probably missed them!

More to come as I work on a redesign to make the database easier to find stuff in..

Mandolin Archive Update Page (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/updates.pl)

MML
Feb-22-2006, 9:32pm
Dan, thats a super cool feature. You are really spoiling us!

mandoJeremy
Feb-22-2006, 11:00pm
It's hard to judge by this picture but I think Gibson got the coloring and centering of the sunburst and all pretty close on my Distressed Bush Model. They didn't do it in the normal "Bush Burst" and it looks like all the DMM's near the same date that I have seen. The MM picture above that Darryl posted is at least a year or two old and they have changed even since then. Mine has the right color in real life, I just don't have major photo skills.

mandoJeremy
Feb-22-2006, 11:05pm
This one shows the color a little better too. Much closer to Loar coloring.

Professor PT
Feb-23-2006, 1:18am
Glassweb, you might find this interview with Gibson's current CEO interesting. No Mandolin content but a lot of discussion on quality. USA Today article Gibson (http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/management/2006-02-20-forum-gibson_x.htm)

sorry to stray from Mando topic. This was in yesterday's USA today I think.
Ah, he talks about the price increases. According to him, doubling the price increases volume. Hmmmm. Okay, off topic a bit--back to our Loar conversation.

Jonathan James
Feb-23-2006, 6:38am
That's a beauty Jeremy.

Kevin K
Feb-23-2006, 10:15am
Jeremy,
Did you go with a red spruce top too?

mandoJeremy
Feb-23-2006, 11:52am
Yes I did. I don't want to hijack this thread though. You can see this mando under the Post a Picture section - "My New Distressed Gibson". So there you have it.

johnwilson
Feb-23-2006, 12:49pm
One place to shop for "Loar cologne" is Demeter, a New York based company that sells scents of all kinds. "Fireplace" was disappointing but "Mildew" made my new case eighty years old with just the press of the atomizer. I haven't tried "Leather" yet but it's been recommended. Ozone fans may want to try "Lightening" and there are "PG" fragrances like "Sex on the Beach." Try the internet for good prices and some dealers actually have sampler displays where you can take a whiff on them (with apologies to Ralph Rinzler).

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-23-2006, 1:30pm
Hi John...I've been to that site, but couldn't figure out what to order..ha

danb
Feb-23-2006, 1:35pm
getting even further off the topic.. but a lot of the "Loar Smell" is basswood. Jamie Wiens once told me that he singed some basswood kerfing on a belt sander, and WHOA.. instant old mandolin scent..

Glassweb
Feb-23-2006, 2:35pm
C'mon Big joe... you gotta jump on this "Old Loar" cologne train... after all, according to your CEO Gibson is moving towards the "Lifestyle" biz. Gibson cologne is a must(y)! Take some basswood, add some mildew... a bit of gasoline and Voila! OLD LOAR

johnwilson
Feb-23-2006, 2:55pm
Now that we have the recipe for the official Gibson mandolin polish, what about sharing some of your best guesses as to the the original stain and finish material formulas and proceedures? Did I miss a Loar era thread on this buried elsewhere?

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-23-2006, 2:57pm
The ultimate in Loar smell. Photo by Pat

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-23-2006, 3:07pm
73006. Photo by Pat

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-23-2006, 3:10pm
73006 pic by Pat

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-23-2006, 3:11pm
73006 by Pat

danb
Feb-23-2006, 4:17pm
Now that we have the recipe for the official Gibson mandolin polish, what about sharing some of your best guesses as to the the original stain and finish material formulas and proceedures? Did I miss a Loar era thread on this buried elsewhere?
It's known http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

danb
Feb-23-2006, 4:17pm
Maybe http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-23-2006, 4:48pm
73006. Pic by Pat. Serial number in ink with some of the characteristics of Loars handwriting. Fairly light finish and well defined spruce grain

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-23-2006, 4:50pm
closer..let me add that it certainly appears to be in ink and not the long vertical broad pencil strokes we usually see

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-23-2006, 4:54pm
closer yet

Moose
Feb-23-2006, 5:04pm
Hey Darryl - Beautiful pics! - I think I'm gonna' go home an' punch my DOG out!!### (naaa!!, he love's it!!) - Moose. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Ken Waltham
Feb-23-2006, 6:09pm
A short comment on the Bush model mandolin.
I discovered a very fine example, all original, right here at home. I owned it for a couple of years, and it was very close in number to Hoss.
It's colour was nothing like the modern ones.
Sorry, that's just the facts.

mandoJeremy
Feb-23-2006, 6:19pm
You're exactly right Ken and I never said the Bush models were colored like the '37's and '38's at all. I said that mine had the Distressed MM finish on it and not the typical "Bush Burst" finish. Bush burst is what Gibson calls the color on the new Sam Bush models and they don't say it's the color that Hoss originally was. I was also making the point that several DMM's that were built close to when my Bush was completed look the exact same as my Distressed Bush Model and that the color on it (and the new DMM's) were closer to Loar color than the older MM's that Darryl posted a picture of. My Distressed Varnish Bush is NOT a typical Bush model mandolin because of the varnish, the distressing, the COLOR, the woods, etc. So sorry, there are the facts as I stated them before and I hope they are clearer this time.

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-23-2006, 10:16pm
Way to go Jeremy. I know that. In fact there is no way to truly say what a "Bush" model should look like. In some ways of looking at it, "Hoss" is a screwed up '30's F5. Does that make Sam Bush's mando worth less, NO, does that make a mint 30's F5 worth more NO. So go figure. It is similar to the theory that Monroes mandolin was a messed up July 9 Loar. I respect your ambition to pull off what you have received from Gibson, and the way you tailored it to what you wanted

mandoJeremy
Feb-23-2006, 11:51pm
Thanks Darryl and now back to Loars!

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-23-2006, 11:54pm
Agree..and I just happened to be here. #I'll post some 30's F5 pics along with Bush mando pics when I get them together

cheers

f5loar
Feb-24-2006, 12:16am
Darryl, I sent you a few photos of 73005 with no TP so you can compare to Ronnie's 73006. His is just a shade darker but very similar overall. And serial number in ink too.

danb
Feb-24-2006, 4:59pm
There are more A5 pictures (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?51) from Pat. Here're my favorites:

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/74003_signature.jpg

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/74003_face.jpg

danb
Feb-24-2006, 7:17pm
Here's the one Charlie brought to Loar fest, though I sure wish I'd taken better pictures..

12/20/1922 #71629 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?3407)

(the one I took after this without the ruler in it is blurry!)

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/71629_face.jpg

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/71629_back.jpg

danb
Feb-24-2006, 7:18pm
Big...

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/71629_top.jpg

danb
Feb-24-2006, 7:19pm
I've also updated the Ronnie McCoury Loar, the A5, and more images of 71629 tonight..

Links to all recently updated listings (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/updates.pl)

danb
Feb-24-2006, 7:41pm
71634 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?13) was a big hit at Loar Fest. Mike Compton said "I don't like Loars for the most part. I like this one".

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/71634_face_1.jpg

danb
Feb-24-2006, 7:53pm
Jamie got a better shot..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/71634_face2.jpg

Ken Waltham
Feb-24-2006, 8:09pm
I never noticed that your post re the Bush Distressed model was a custom finish.
That's fine, I was merely referring to the inaccuracy of colour in modern Gibsons.
I think it's great that you got what you wanted, and more power to you.
As for mint, original examples being worth more, they will be every day day of the year. All early F5's have moved beyond the utility level, and are now in the commodity range. I really wish this were not so, but, that the case in the last few years.

Michael Lewis
Feb-25-2006, 2:37am
71634 has a more pronounced recurve than what I have seen in other Loars. Were the early ones all that way or is this just an anomaly?

danb
Feb-25-2006, 4:47am
Michael- that's interesting. Hmm, it's farily well-travelled to festivals.. Do you carry a hacklinger with you along with that wonderful portable workshop you have?

If I could figure out a reasonably standard way to present graduation charts, it'd sure be fun to add those to the archive.

Coming soon: CT scans of a '26 F5 !!

mort
Feb-25-2006, 12:06pm
what kind of tailpc. is that? or is it just coming off?

danb
Feb-26-2006, 6:03am
Just slightly loose

danb
Feb-26-2006, 11:17am
For your viewing pleasure, here is the 1923 Gibson Service Handbook (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/documents/1923_service_manual/page1.html) in its entirety. Thanks kindly to the owner for lending me this booklet. I'll let him speak up if he'd like to http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Lots of fun stuff to read there!

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-27-2006, 1:03pm
71634 has a more pronounced recurve than what I have seen in other Loars. #Were the early ones all that way or is this just an anomaly?
The early Loars had several traits that make them look a bit different. The recurve and/or the way the binding transitions gives them a sharper edge look. The scroll work is almost invariably sharper and slightly pronounced in height. And of course the light finish.

I'll open up this can of worms by saying, only as THEORY, and FODDER for possible discussion and not even hard opinion that: the possibility exists that a completely different set of individuals may have produced or participated in the early ones, those made up until about May. They all have the appearance that a violin maker worked on them. I do not see some of these nuances on F4's or other instruments of that particular period.

They have distinctive wood, distinctive finishes, generally sound brighter, tend to come apart more easily and have carving nuances not seen in the rest.

Go figure again, once more

Ken Waltham
Feb-27-2006, 1:18pm
I would agree. As for the reason, I'm certainly not sure.
My own personal theory, in regards to F5's in general, is that the guys on the floor had a lot more to do with them than they were given credit for. I believe imigrants, from Italy in particular, who grew up in the violin culture, perhaps even tenured at a shop from boyhood, had a lot to do with the development of the F5.
This is TOTALLY speculation on my part, but, I can see the designers, Loar, Hart, etc, having these ideas, and the fellows on the shop floor having an immediate understanding of how to implement it, F holes, finish, bridge in the middle, Stradivarious arching.. the whole thing.
Agreed also that they sound brighter, and usually louder. They are primarily 1/4 sawn, again more violin like, and, my personal fave.
I think one possible reason, and the one that makes the most sense to me, for the change, is simply economics.
Gibson was in financial trouble, and things kind of went downhill. I believe that's one reason why the next ones were primarily slab cut. Easier, cheaper.
I think that the early ones MAY be the best ones, as a group.
Ken

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-27-2006, 1:23pm
Here is an example. Quartersawn, light finish. Find an F4 that has this wood. This is 71634

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-27-2006, 1:26pm
71059. The ridge of the scroll is higher, and this funky greenish binding does not show up on F4's

f5joe
Feb-28-2006, 5:02pm
Ken, we Italians appreciate all the positive speculation that's out there. Lloyd Loar was, indeed, an Italian immigrant. Unfortunately, he felt the sting of quasi-nationalism and ended up changing his name to Anglo-ize it.

Lloyd Loarelli, yep .................. a great Italian American.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

MML
Feb-28-2006, 5:11pm
Is that true, about Lloyds last name? or are just mess'n?

Michael Lewis
Mar-01-2006, 1:48am
Gentlemen, thanks for the insight. It just keeps geting better.

Ken Waltham
Mar-01-2006, 6:42am
Well, hey, what do you think Albert and Julious Bellson's real name was....? It wasn't Bellson. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

f5joe
Mar-01-2006, 12:45pm
Bellsonelli, according to my records.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

............. hey, just funnin' here.

But it's wonderful to believe that Italian-Americans may have contributed.

f5joebalogne

Darryl Wolfe
Mar-01-2006, 1:59pm
ok.ok. #I tossed it out there for thought, not geneology. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Again, I'm not stating that I believe this is the case, but it does have some indicators that suggest the possibility. #Remember, Gibson smothered their ads with references to Stradivari principles on the F5, and the new "varnish" so it bears investigation whether they may have outsourced a bit of expertise or brought some individuals into the company for a specific purpose

JEStanek
Mar-01-2006, 2:58pm
Handel tuners of assumed German origin debunked -maybe- and now the Loar Italian connection! I love this place!
Jamie

mandophil(e)
Mar-02-2006, 9:48am
A great shot of Monroe and his Loar. The poster is from 1958, the photo is quite a bit earlier than that.

Bill Halsey
Mar-02-2006, 11:08pm
Well, hey, what do you think Albert and Julious Bellson's real name was....? It wasn't Bellson. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Julius lived a few blocks from me in Kalamazoo. We were fairly well acquainted, and on one occasion while visiting in his office in the 1970s, he told me his family name was Belsoni. May have had or two ll's or two nn's; he just mentioned it in passing without spelling it. And, of course, he said it was changed because of the stigma of immigration. Wonderful gentleman and a fine classical mandolinist; loved to give impromptu tours of the factory. The employees at Gibson obviously held Julius in very high regard.
BTW, Julius preferred the sound of his F-4 over any F-5.