Loar Picture of the Day

[kudzugypsy]

is this yet another "undocumented" loar surfacing?

with the sale thru the cafe of the recent july 9, (that went in less than 3 days) i just can not see someone paying skinner to handle the sale - thus costing both the seller and buyer (+ taxes) this is just bewildering.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Yes, it's indocumented (well, Skinner contacts us months before they announce sale..so it's documented as of a few months ago)

[f5loar]

I would say the person who choose Skinner has not heard of the Cafe for the free ads. One reason you would go through Skinner is not only the handling of the funds safely plus safe shipping if needed but the ease of mind of knowing it had a shot at the whole world not just those that know about the Cafe. Japan has a lot of collectors that closely watch Skinner for vintage instruments. Logic would tell you to offer over the Cafe first and then no bites go to Skinner at auction or Gruhn at set sale price.

[tlgvintage]

Hey...I'm new here and new to the mando. My dad had a July 9th, 1923 Loar. He sold it (sadly...would have made a great first mandolin!) through Tony Williamson. I can try to post some pics if anyone cares.

[Spruce]

Sure!

What was the serial #?

[Darryl Wolfe]

Probably 73728

[Darryl Wolfe]

73728

[danb]

Bruce, you played that one at WG ;)

[Spruce]

Yep....
But mostly exactly a year ago at IBMA....

My belly is still tingling... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[kudzugypsy]

tony told me that loar came from the vaults of "John Boy & Billy" (famous radio personalities here in the southeast..ie, nascar, and redneck humor)
they were moving their money into 50's strats and les pauls.

...btw, neither played a lick.

that was one of the BEST loars of all time - the one that made you hand it back after 5 mins saying "i cant take any more of this" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[tlgvintage]

Yeah...Dad is at john boy & billy inc. I never got to play it either...in a safe 24/7. He and I started up www.tlgvintageguitars.com togehter 50/50 after he sold the Loar. You guys sure do know a lot. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[f5loar]

My question would be "Are you still speaking to your dad?"
Talk about the one that "got away" in a family sense.

[tlgvintage]

I was mad for a while...but he bought me a 1957 Stratocaster with some of the profit...so I cooled off:)

[tlgvintage]

tony told me that loar came from the vaults of "John Boy & Billy" (famous radio personalities here in the southeast..ie, nascar, and redneck humor)
they were moving their money into 50's strats and les pauls.

...btw, neither played a lick.

that was one of the BEST loars of all time - the one that made you hand it back after 5 mins saying "i cant take any more of this" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
By the way...it wasn't John Boy and Billy who bought the Loar, it was Johnny and my dad. Johnny doesn't play anything...but my dad plays Dobro, guitar, and banjo (I picked up the guitar when I was 3 and recently started on mando). It was a shame that nobody could play it...but it was mainly an investment.

[kudzugypsy]

well they made good money on that investment - but yeah, i'd rather have the loar too. it was a monster.

i think most of the buyers are now into vintage solely for the investment potential. you get FAR more capital gains without the tax implications.

[danb]

i think most of the buyers are now into vintage solely for the investment potential. you get FAR more capital gains without the tax implications.
You'd be surprised. I've not met an owner yet that doesn't at least play a bit!

[Glassweb]

I took my Loar out last night to play at a folk club here in NYC - got it in my Pegasus case and there's no problem. What a pleasure to hear that sound backing up Erin Regan. The best... and yes, this one has Virzi. Don't dig Virzis? Check this one out. It ain't mint this one... so it's a delight not to have to worry too much about it. We pay a lot of money for these vintage F5's - so I say play 'em now while you're alive, take as good care of them as possible and let someone else worry about the condition after you're dead and gone!

[Brian Aldridge]

I couldn't agree with you more Glassweb. I always take one of my Loars or my early Fern to every gig I play. I used to try taking a newer mandolin to gigs so as not to have to worry any about stuff, but always just ended up regretting not having the old one instead. As you said, just take as good care of it as possible and insure the heck out of it. I have a virzied and a non virzied Loar. I have a few BG friends who actually like the virzied one better. It will go head to head with the non in terms of volume and projection, and has an incredible tone. I guess the word I've seen used to describe that tone is complex, and I think that is a good term. It doesn't have the bite that the non virzied one does though. In truth, I find myself drawn to my early Fern quite strongly though. But I see-saw between the three as to which one draws me. Any of the three will work in any situation.

[f5loar]

Did Bush change the capital gains tax laws on intangable assets? That's a new one on me. I believe it's due in the tax year you sold it but whether or not it is reported as a capital gains is another issue.

[glauber]

Sam Bush?

[kudzugypsy]

f5loar - i'm not a tax lawyer or accountant - so what i have is just gain thru casual conversations, etc - and i'm referencing people buying for investment (ie, they have high $$$ accountants and money managers that will tell them when to buy, how much they need to spend, and when to sell) this is quite different from the player who wants a loar and takes out a home equity line.
it was my *understanding* there was some kind of *loophole* that ended last year. if i was selling a loar or other high end instrument, i think it would be VERY wise to consult a tax advisor first - esp when we're talking $125K+

and, not to mention that all this really can be done under the tax radar if you are so inclined. there are still people who can pay you that kind of money in cash. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[tlgvintage]

Just wondering...what do you do with $150,000 + in cash?!?

[f5loar]

You best keep it under your mattress if you don't want to pay capital gains tax on your last sale. Loopholes are being closed up not opened up. If you have your certified accountant or broker buying and selling your vintage instruments for you there will be a paper trail. The IRS loves paper trails. It's easy to convict and make you pay up with a simple paper trail. While most pickers buying $150,000 mandolins seldom would think of paper trails and the IRS at the same time it does happen. It's unreported income and the IRS takes that pretty serious whether you are a mandolin picker or a leverage buyout broker on Wall Street. Say you sale the Loar you bought in 1967 for $150,000. That's a $147,000 captial gain. Then you take that $150,000 and buy you a new BMW 760Li loaded and flop down the cash for it or a new double wide trailer. You have turned your undocumented capital gain into a paper trail for the IRS. It may take several years but 8 out of 10 times they will get to you. Didn't that naked guy on Survivor Richard Hatch? get caught for not reporting his million dollar winnings from the TV show? What an idoit to be such a great survivor. Didn't someone we know appraise a mandolin for $500,000 for estate tax purpose and then turn around a few years later and sell it for $1,125,000? The IRS wanted to know what happened to their $625,000 capital gains for tax now owed. And no I'm not a tax lawyer or IRS agent but I have been there done that and paid the price.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here are few new shots of 73992. I tried to get some things captured that you don't see all the time

[Darryl Wolfe]

73992

[Darryl Wolfe]

73992

[Darryl Wolfe]

73992

[Darryl Wolfe]

73992, with flash revealing finish texture

[Darryl Wolfe]

73992

[Darryl Wolfe]

73992

[Darryl Wolfe]

73992

[Darryl Wolfe]

73992

[Darryl Wolfe]

73992

[MANDOLINMYSTER]

NICE!!! That finish looks like it just came out of the factory, is it original? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Darryl Wolfe]

All original except bridge top. Every screw and part is orig. Light french polish around scroll area on face and portion back where perspiration/body heat hits it

[f5joe]

And to think I was there when f5journl gave birth to this monster.

I missed bopping on it dude. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[f5loar]

F5Joe, those photos inspired me to dig out my old July 9th reversed binding. Man that sure was a powerful batch.
Looks like Darryl's is holding up pretty good.

[Charlie Derrington]

Tommy,

Why in the world would you be playing anything but that July 9?

Yup, a very special batch.

Charlie

[f5loar]

You have to alternate them so they don't fall asleep!
I got into a jam session with one of Big Mon's ex-banjo boys tonight and he cut into Bluegrass Breakdown and all of sudden the July 9th woke up real quick on my first break!

[Ken Waltham]

As a lot of you guys know, I had the very next July 9 from Darryl's for years.
The sides were similar, but the backs could not have been more different.
My mandolin, in a lot of ways, looked more like the next one in order, belonging to Glassweb.
I need to post some detail photos like Darryl has, of the June prototype sidebound Loar. It has some unusual traits, such as the binding being higher than regular July 9's. Charlie once told me it has the nicest "slip matched" back he had seen. Can you elaborate on slip matched Charlie?
Ken

[Darryl Wolfe]

"slip matched"

halves from same narrow board..above and below each other..then turn one around so same edge is in middle...not split and book matched

[Spruce]

...and can create a more "bookmatched" look, as you are carving away the same amount of figure from each half of the similarly-figured plates...

Slip-matched tops might be the reason a lot of Loar tops do not appear to be a traditional bookmatch.
But I'm thinking that the graining is so different from side-to-side on a lot of them that they are indeed two different boards from two different sources...

[Charlie Derrington]

Sorry it took so long.

Bruce and Darryl covered it. I think the main reason was that the stain takes evenly on slip matched spruce.

Charlie

[Darryl Wolfe]

staining...great point Charlie...I don't think that's ever been mentioned, but certainly sounds right

[Spruce]

"I think the main reason was that the stain takes evenly on slip matched spruce."

Interesting...
So if there's a tad of run-out in a board and you slip-match it, it will take stain evenly, won't it?
I'd never thought of that...

I'd kill just to see just one old photograph of their wood room circa '23-24...
It would sure answer a lot of questions...

[Ken Waltham]

Maybe I didn't understand when he told me, but, Charlie, I thought at the time you were referring to the back.
Ken

[Spruce]

Yep...

But I brought tops into the picture...

Both were probably slip-matched, and their wood room was probably chock-full of 8-10' long boards of 1x6 red spruce and hard maple.....

[Charlie Derrington]

It was the back. But they did that, too. I've also seen backs with different boards (tree ?)for each side. I'm not sure (gosh, it's so hard to tell, sometimes) but I think my back is book matched, but moved down on one side.

Staining is not as critical of an issue on the backs, particularly for the slab-cut ones.

Charlie

[danb]

Here's an interesting new detail.. apparently at least one Loar fretboard has an original radius of 22". I'd be curious to hear from Charlie or other folks who've looked at several if this varies at all.. the old conventional wisdom that they are flat might need an adjustment.

[Darryl Wolfe]

quit teasing Dan. #How do you know and can you prove it? (to quote a good friend of mine)
Seriously, I've never seen one, how do we know there is an original radiused board.

[ronlane3]

Keep 'em coming Darryl. Those are great pictures. Darryl, I know that they are Loar's but could you possibly post some side by side pictures of a Loar and a 29 Fern?

[danb]

I've never seen one, how do we know there is an original radiused board.
22" radius is pretty hard to detect, that's almost flat. It was measured recently by a noted luthier who has one in his possession. Might be able to get him to weigh in here, he's wrapping up some substantial research on a particularly fine example

[Charlie Derrington]

Well, Dan...

I've got to side with Darryl on this one. I've never seen a radiused board (even slightly) on an original Loar. They sometimes even look like they are cupped instead of radiused. (An optical illusion, or the board lifting slightly on the edges)

That's not to say that one couldn't exist, but I sort of doubt it. Probably caused by a plane and refret at some point in it's history.

Charlie

[Brian Aldridge]

I was playing at Penn's Peak in Jim Thorpe PA last Saturday, and a guy was telling me that Mandolin Bros has a near mint Loar that recently came out of the woodwork, and they were asking 225k for it. I couldn't find it on their website. Does anyone have any knowledge of this?

[Charlie Derrington]

Hi Bri...

Nope, nuthin' on this end.

Charlie

[danb]

Well, Dan...

I've got to side with Darryl on this one. I've never seen a radiused board (even slightly) on an original Loar. They sometimes even look like they are cupped instead of radiused. (An optical illusion, or the board lifting slightly on the edges)

That's not to say that one couldn't exist, but I sort of doubt it. Probably caused by a plane and refret at some point in it's history.

Charlie
Not a refret.. you know the one I'm talking about, and also who did the checking!

But a 22" radius is not much really, even a 16" radius feels nearly flat as well. I'm quite curious too really, the report did surprise me.

Didn't someone here recently post a quote from a Gibson catalog that discusses a slight curve available on the fretboard as an option?

[Glassweb]

Just asked Stan Jay, owner of Mando Bros, about the rumor of this $225K Loar at their shop. He laughed! There is NO TRUTH to this rumor. Case closed!

[Brian Aldridge]

thanks CD and SB. I thought that 225 was six or eights months premature.

[Glassweb]

Yes, I'd say the $225K price would be an EXTREME case of "premature appreciation"... (sorry, couldn't resist!)

[Darryl Wolfe]

Just a little bump here. #Note that in this picture taken (lifted) from mandocafe homepage that Mr. Loar is playing a 10-string mandola oriented instrument. It appears to have 3 courses of wound strings

[danb]

Well Darryl, you've just blown my only Loar secret. I can add this.. I know what year it was made.. but the trail went cold. Here's a better picture..

[danb]

This is a peghead from a 1917 H2. Imagine some 5-on-a-plate pages on there (like my recently traded vega 10-str had)..

Standard Mandola body.. standard neck (as close as I can tell), 5-on-a-plate tuners as were available at the same time (1917) my old vega 10-str was prodouced..

[danb]

Another View..

[danb]

Here's Lloyd with an interesting ~1905 F4. Note the inlaid guard has the small dot in it, probably the "Butterfly" inlay.. Lloyd also had his fingerboard extension chopped and has an interesting guard on the body near the soundhole. You can see back binding, but a horizontal "The Gibson" on the peghead.. so this is likely a 1905 3-pointer. Perhaps a special order, as the combination of features is unusual..

[danb]

Here're the tuners I assume match the ones on the earlier 10-str..

[danb]

Compare..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/70321_mandoviola_full_back.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

You've just gotta love the shoes in the picture with the chair. #I think Liberace may have inherited them

[f5loar]

From the looks of his pants leg I'd say ole Lloyd was expecting high water that day. These look pre-Gibson era.
So young looking. This would explain why he jumped on the 10 string with F holes early in his days with Gibson. He had a thing for the 10 thing.

[Brian Aldridge]

Lloyd had a nice set of ears.

[Michael Lewis]

Dan, isn't that 10 string thing in Roger Siminoff's care? You should contact him.

[Antlurz]

You've just gotta love the shoes in the picture with the chair.
Regardless of his poweress with music, I believe folks of his time would have looked at his attire and labeled him a "Dandy", as the term went.

Ron

[danb]

Dan, isn't that 10 string thing in Roger Siminoff's care? You should contact him.
Roger had the f-holed 10-string (and singing saw, and electric viola) for years.. it's now in the hands of another gentleman. This is a different 10-string, made approx 5-6 years prior to his employee relationship with Gibson..

[markishandsome]

Maybe my eyes are playing trickson me, but it looks like the "extra" tuners on the oval 10-string are spaced a little further apart than the rest. Maybe something of a frankenstein with 2 4-on-a-plates and 2 singles?

[Jason Kessler]

it looks like the "extra" tuners on the oval 10-string are spaced a little further apart than the rest
I believe Attractive Mark has made an astute and interesting observation.

[danb]

Hmm, maybe.. though that very same year.. you could get them 5-on-a-plate (or vega did anyway!), and the 5/plate ones also appear on the f-holed one.. Dunno, It lloks sorta borderline in the picture but I'd have thunk it'd be the same plates as my vega had (just becuase they were clearly available then). Also.. think Tiple.. that's 10-strings usually (2-3-3-2) and similar plates.

[Ken Waltham]

I've seen them "married" like Handsome Mark says. I wish I could see the mandola/mandolin tuners, with F holes, I bet they are made up.....
I also think the mandolin is an F2. I think that binidng on the back is just a reflection.
It has an F2 peghead, for sure.

[f5loar]

Looks like an F2 to me too Ken. They sure was pretty when new.

[Michael Gowell]

Yeah, I've read a reference to LL playing an F-2 at least before (and maybe during?) the time he worked for Gibson in Kalamazoo. #Though whether that info was based on this photo or from another source I don't know. #Wish I could remember where I read that...

Interesting that he played a relatively plain F-2 when he so clearly dressed at the height of elegance for concert work - guess it was a good 'un...

Am I remembering correctly that he was a paid endorser for Gibson prior to his employment at the factory? #Anyone know
when that arrangement began? #We tend to concentrate on his quality control role at the factory and don't talk about how he was one of that era's leading performers...

[danb]

I've seen them "married" like Handsome Mark says. I wish I could see the mandola/mandolin tuners, with F holes, I bet they are made up.....
I also think the mandolin is an F2. I think that binidng on the back is just a reflection.
It has an F2 peghead, for sure.
Well I'm 99% sure they are 5-on-a-plate on the f-holed 10-string, simply because they look exactly like the plate style I had on my vega, and clearly those were around at least as early as 1917 when that vega was made.

You guys are right, it probably is reflection, not binding, and an F2.

[Ken Waltham]

I have never seen the mando/viola, so I would certainly hope it has factory made, 5 on a plate tuners.
But, my experience with Gibson, is that it may in fact be a marriage.
As you know, they were privately owned, and wasted nothing.
The 5 on a plate you posted were really nice, and I have never seen them before. The ones I've seen, mostly on banjo mandos and other oddities were marriages from 2 sets of tuners. They were also cheaper instruments.
BTW, all the times I've seen that photo of Lloyd... I've never noticed that mandola had 10 strings!
And.... you know who has Loar's F2 now..... the experimental Virzi one....
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Darryl Wolfe]

The mando-viola has factory made gold wriggle end 1922/ealy 23 style tuners. The instrument however has hex bushings ala 30's.

I agree with Mark, the upper end tuner spacing is larger on the 10-string oval hole which to me indicates a rigged up set of tuners. I'd almost bet it's a set of 8 string mando tuners with another pair of individuals simply cut off and added on the end. If you ground off the end of the 4 post set and added another matching individual, it would look reasonable

[Philip Halcomb]

Hey off the topic a little, but are there any pictures of David Grisman's crusher? I always wanted to see close-ups of that mandolin. Thanks...

[ShaneJ]

Cool, Darryl! How 'bout a shot of the rest of it? Wood body, or metal?

[mandopete]

Man,you gotta lower that action!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[ShaneJ]

Man,you gotta lower that action!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Yeah, and finish carving the back of the neck too! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Seriously, Darryl, I was assuming mandolin content and didn't even count tuning machines and strings. I have had the bug for a resonator mandolin lately. Ever made one of those?

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here's a real beauty that our own Dan Beimborn helped unearth

81273 (http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/45U-1106.htm)

[mandopete]

Yikes!

That's a steal at a mere $35K.

[levin4now]

Looking back a couple of pages to those pictures of Lloyd Loar holding that '05 3 pointer makes me wonder - are all the Gibson builders today dressed in the same manner? Or has Gibson relaxed its dress code policy? Maybe Lloyd's pics were taken on "Casual Friday".

[mandophil(e)]

There have been numerous discussions about the total number of signed Loars out there, but I'm curious about how many pre-war Ferns are known to exist. I did a rough count of those listed in the Archive, and came to about 90 some odd, making them quite a bit rarer than Loars. It also seems as though there are distinct types--those with arrow-end tuners vs. round end, those with "the Gibson" vs just "Gibson", etc. Darryl, Dan, Tom, or anybody else care to weigh in on this?

Also, is it thought that there are probably as many undiscovered Ferns as unknown Loars? It seems as though there are 2-4 new Loars a year that are coming to light. Is that the same frequency for new Ferns?

[Darryl Wolfe]

From the Journal

134 Post Loar instruments (verified)
118 Mandolins, F
2 Mandolas, H
1 Mando-cellos, K
14 Guitars, L (fairly recent category, hundreds were made)

I don't have extrapolation calcs set up for post Loar period, but just a quick figure would add about 50% to the 118 mandolin figure above. #Yes Ferns are actually more rare than Loars.

[f5loar]

You have the postLoar flowerpots and fleur-de-lis in that total so back those out and you do have far less Ferns made making them far more rarer than a signed Loar at only half the price. Ferns should fall into two categories:
1925 to 1931 and 1932 to 1936. Flowerpots start back in 1937 and fleur-de-lis in 1941 to 1943. When I was torn between owning a Loar or a Fern Randy Wood told me "Nobody ever complained about the sound Bobby Osborne got from his Fern" There are quite a few fantastic sounding Ferns out there. About 20 have been added to the verfied listing in the past 4 years or about 5 per year. Another 50 to be found! Good Luck!

[kudzugypsy]

hey dan, whats the story on unearthing the '25 L-5?

- it was on hold last week - i see its back for sale.

[mandophil(e)]

Tom, my understanding is that top flight early Ferns were usually tracking at better than half the price of a Loar. Has that changed?

[danb]

re: the '25.. I was contacted via the archives by the owners. They initially were inquiring about value, had some family issues a few months later that prompted them to sell, so I talked around for them, picked out the best images, had various archive friends pore over it, and we came up with a value..

I helped them to make a deal with Stan W at Elderly. Nice guy, very easy to work with, 100% trust at all times as you can imagine. Not a heck of a lot to tell really!

I do get a fair number of interesting emails from the archives of course, and I always try to do well to hook owners up with fair prices etc if they want to sell. Hmm, it has been a couple weeks now since a Loar has turned up, hasn't it? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[f5loar]

As with most anything of collector value condition is an important part of price so you have a range to consider for Loars and Ferns. I'd say today's range for a Loar runs $125,000 to $185,000 and an early Fern is running $72,000 to $88,000 so close to being half price. These are prices for complete originals not refinished or refurbished, mucked with, toyed with or butchered up conditions. They can be as much as half those prices. I have no doubt a pristine minty condition newly found July 9th reverse binding Loar that could blow your socks off with one stroke of a B chord and could loosen the head of a calf skin 30's Mastertone from it's power thrust could fetch $200,000 easily. What say you Darryl and Dan?

[danb]

Yep, it's already happened. Unoffically there are at least 2 Loars that have sold over $175k

What appears to be happening now in the market from my armchair.. the prices have crept up a bit again, stabilizing for a while around $120k for a flowerpot, $130 for a fern or sidebound, and spiking up to 80% more again for super-fine examples. Ferns have also been climbing steadily, a good one will fetch in the neighborhood of $90k these days.

I think what happened to the market of old gibsons recently is simply explained by the internet. More people are aware of them, which didn't really increase demand but increased the ability of buyers to find them and compete. Ebay prices for "Standard" vintage are getting relatively stable, with the caveat that pristine examples are being fought over by collectors for very high prices (the $6600 super-clean A2z recently on eBay as an example).

To stick a finger in the air, I'd guess we're around this mark on average:

Flowerpot Loar: $120k
Sidebound or Fern Loar: $135-150k
Unusually incredible/clean Loar: $175-?
Ferns '25-30: $80-95k

F4 1912-1918 super-clean: $5500-6000
F4 truss rod: $7500-8500

[Darryl Wolfe]

Agree

Same thing has happened lately for the '30's Martin D's, it's a sellers market on them, as in name your price for the especially good ones

[mandophil(e)]

I think there is a difference in valuation in the marketplace between early Ferns with arrow-end tuners and later models. Gruhn and Elderly both have very clean later Ferns that haven't moved at $80k.

[f5loar]

$120K for a flowerpot '23 is low but not for a '24 run of the mill with Virzi in or out. A '23 has always brought more than a '24 and a '22 has brought more than a '23.
Darryl is right about D prewar Martins. There was a well worn almost all original '38 D28 on ebay a few weeks back that fetched over $47,000 blew me away. No doubt 2006 will see Loars reach the $200 grand mark.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Absolutely mandophil(e) #Those early ones are in the price range mentioned above whereas the later are definitely not.
We sometimes tend to lump all post Loar F5's together as "Ferns", but there are "Ferns", "late Ferns" and "30's" F5's, each having a price range/structure that gets commensurately lower in value

[mandophil(e)]

Darryl:

Is the difference between "early" and "late" Fern the tuners/tailpiece set-up, or is it the body dimensions? Or both? I've heard about Ferns with early FON's that have later style equipment, but are still considered early. What is your take on the differences?

[Darryl Wolfe]

Also,in my mind at least, there is an uncanny similarity between the value and desirabilitiy of those four "classes" of pre-war F5's and the desirability and used market price of:

a 2004 Master Model---------Loar
a 2004 "Fern"---------------Early Fern
a 1995 F5L------------------Late Fern
a 1982 F5L------------------30's F5

The percentage $ difference and desirability align just about perfectly.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Mandophil(e)-The differences are in in both the arching, graduations and finish thickness. #There are the obvious cosmetics of tuner styles, inlay and such, but the late Ferns have thicker tops and backs along with thicker shiney lacquer finishes for a heavier overall feel and sound. #The early Ferns differ from Loars in arching, but the graduations are very good and the finish is thin for simply a different and brighter sound than a Loar. #Cosmetically, the early Ferns have gold plated hardware that is identical to the silver Loar hardware.

Again, direct comparisons can be made with the modern F5's mentioned above.

[f5loar]

Look for price cuts in those dealers that lost their Gibson dealership that still have old 2003/2005 inventory.
I was at at store last week that had a their 2005 Fern Varnish on sale for $7999 while a used one on the cafe was at $8500. This store had the DMM down to $18K. They had many 2004's and at least one 2003 on display. Since Gibson raised prices they are going to move this stuff cheap. Hey Darryl don't forget to post my blonde on the blonde thread.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Holy Cow. #This post could not be more timely. #Matched pair of custom ordered Fern mandolins 84264 and 84265. #Original double case. #Newly added to the journal.

[Christian]

Darryl, that is outstanding! Same batch as Earl Taylor's and Jimmy G. old Fern, right? Must me the only original double case in existence as well. What a find. Do you have any more informations on the instruments?

[Darryl Wolfe]

They were made for Robert L. Sharp in 1927 under factory order #9288 with a specially designed carrying case that holds both instruments. #He was the founder and conductor of the Memphis Plectro Phonic Orchestra in the late 1920's and early 1930's. He is pictured in Catalogs of the period

[Brian Aldridge]

absolutely astonishing... are there more pictures? They look awful red. Is that just the pic or were they a custom color as well?

[danb]

*jaw drops to floor*

[mandophil(e)]

Why would anybody order two identical mandolins, particularly when each one cost as much as a new car?

[f5loar]

Dave Apollon always kept 2 on stage at all times. Never know when you are going to break a string and the show must go on. Plus keeps from wearing out frets so fast!
As for the price, just as you have collectors paying over $100,000 for a Loar today would not be any different then paying $600 for 2 Ferns(includes the case) in 1927. They had rich mandolin pickers back then too!

[danb]

Boy, I wonder if those are coming to bakersfield http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Ken Waltham]

Just when you think yo've seen it all!!!
That totally knocks my socks off! The case is unreal.

[MML]

I'm with you Dan,

Jaw drops to floor...and eyes pop out of head http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[jasona]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[grandmainger]

Darryl, do you know if the current owner prefers one to the other? And if so, why? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Man, I've always had dreams of twins http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[ethanopia]

Very Tasty!

I love the double case, will these be at Loar Fest West?

Were there any Matched Loar or Fern Mandolin's and Mandolas sold together like this?

[f5loar]

What, no back photos to see if they match grains?

[Mando4Life]

Fantastic!!!

I've always thought the mid-late 20's Ferns were awesome!

It makes you wonder just what else may be lurking out there in a closet, under a bed, etc.

WBL

[mandophil(e)]

Anybody know the details related to the discovery of these beauties?

[Glassweb]

Now THAT'S the way to start a new year... what a staggering image! We'll all be laying in bed tonight thinking about those sweet, sweet twins... YOW!

[GTison]

Has one got a aluminum bridge top or is that a reflection. Got some more pics for the archive??

[danb]

I'm just starting my day here and Darryl posted at the end of his last night, so I haven't spoken to him yet.. I hope to put details up on the Archives as soon as they are available. This certainly qualifies as the "find of the year" already!

[Darryl Wolfe]

What you see is all I have. I'm not at liberty to say anything more than this: I was contacted by the owner. The original owner was his grandfather. He seems to know the full history of the mandos and he is contemplating selling. More to come.

[kudzugypsy]

WOW - it might be a good year after all.
over the last month, there have been 3 original 30's 1pc flange flatheads come out of the attic and now, a set of matching ferns. that is wild - i hope they can stay together.

[f5loar]

I could use 2 more! Pass it on!

[Darryl Wolfe]

F5LOAR, don't you have a "hole" in your collection around the 26-29 period of time

[f5loar]

yes, it's a BIG gap there so pass it on I'm interested at first grabs. These would fill the hole big time!

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here is all we know for this period

84251 F5 Mandolin Fern, dot at third fret, stamp no. 9140, serial no. possibly 84257. #Bobby Osborne

84252 F5 Mandolin Fern, near mint, stamp no. 9140. #2004 sale

84257 F5 Mandolin Possibly same instrument as 84251.
84264 F5 Mandolin Fern, near mint, stamp no. 9288. Part of matched set

84265 #F5 #Mandolin Fern, near mint, stamp no. 9288. Part of matched set. #Neck slightly loose, needs reglue

84270 #F5 #Mandolin Previously owned by Jimmy Gaudreau, 3-piece neck, new fingerboard, stamp no. 9140, neck reset. owned by John Paganoni now.

84271 #F5 Mandolin Fern, worn, formerly owned by Earl Taylor, repaired peghead scroll, crack in body

So, this gives all appearance that FON 9140 is the standard batch, and FON 9288 is the special order for the pair. There is all appearances that every serial number from 84251 to 84271 would be an F5. But this is all we have on record

[danb]

Here're a couple more photos from the owner..

[danb]

Very nice...

[danb]

Very nice folks and a great story behind the instruments too. I just chatted with the owner and the family is indeed considering a sale. They have been in family since purchase and the present owner's grandfather was a well-known player back in the day.

The case is of course a custom job from the Gieb company back in the late 20s. Condition appears superb in the images, and all parts also appear to be original.

My jaw still hits the floor when I take in the look in that double case!

[sgarrity]

Now that is truly amazing. What a find. I hope one of the guys from the board gets a shot at buying them.

[danb]

That's the hope!

[Ken Waltham]

That just blows me away. Amazing. Now we need to see the F5/H5 combo in a double case.

[danb]

Checking to see if I can get some closer details..

[craigtoo]

Absolutely Stunning instruments....

Checking on Home Equity now.....

craig

[markishandsome]

Does the one on the right have some orange-peel effect on the back? I wish I looked that good draped in green velvet!

[danb]

Not quite sure what you mean by orange peel effect. Here's a closer shot of the back..

the one on the left..

[danb]

The one on the right..

[danb]

Tops.. L-r again

[danb]

2nd

[Glassweb]

That's really sick... in only the best of ways! I recently sold my Fern that was from that batch... all I can say is that whoever writes the check for these will be pretty pleased. DOUBLE YOW!

[ShaneJ]

Dan, is there any reason why the G strings are sharing a slot on the bridge on the first top?

[mandophil(e)]

My guess is that is the one with the loose neck, so the strings are slack.

[Charlie Derrington]

Loose neck?

Boy, would that be really rare !!

BTW, sure is easy to tell they're lacquer. I'd give an eye tooth to have that case.

Charlie

[f5loar]

Hey Charlie now that you see how a double Loar case looks that actually has pockets in it why not do one up for sale for all us multi-Loar owners out there? So far the double cases offered by others don't have the neat little pockets these have plus that nice long side pocket. I'll take the proto type in green please!

[Charlie Derrington]

That'd be a great idea, Tommy. I'll talk to the guys at the bluegrass division and see what they think.

Charlie

[jim simpson]

Here's a shot of my double (not Loar) case made by Rob Anderson. The are 2 storage pockets w/lids that provide ample storage space.

[jim simpson]

detail of one of the two storage compartments

[jim simpson]

case closed!

[fredfrank]

Hey Charlie now that you see how a double Loar case looks that actually has pockets in it why not do one up for sale for all us multi-Loar owners out there? #
Sounds like a very small niche market. Multiple Loar owners. Probably not a lot of those would care to take one Loar out and about, let alone two.

[Glassweb]

Forget the double case... who wants to lug something like that around? I'll gladly take the 2 Ferns however... with a matched pair of Caltons in Vintage Green please!

[GTison]

I remember we had a discussion about the fret placement on newer MMs and Loars, and now these ferns show up with seemingly the same fret position as modern ones or am I not seeing it right? #

Compare this pic from a previous post to the above pics

[Darryl Wolfe]

Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle. Great catch Bowfinger. We learn something new every day. So, an example of ever changing templates at Gibson during that period

[f5loar]

It's possible that during that time and certainly Loar's time there was at least 3 guys and maybe up to 6 that could build the F5 from start to finish. Would not each guy have their own templete at his own station? Possible guys left or died and templetes got lost and new ones had to be built from the old ones. Wouldn't it be nice for a film to show up showing them making the F5 of the 20's?

[Darryl Wolfe]

I don't really buy that argument, however two distinctly different templates apparently existed and were interchanged during this period. Here is one just a few numbers off with the Loar style profile. Looking through the archives there are only a few later 20's Ferns with the non-Loar profile

[Charlie Derrington]

Neither do I, Darryl... there would have been bulk fingerboards available to all builders, and they would have used whatever was available out of the f/b bin.

However, it is interesting to note that the Loar period fingerboards were calculated to the closest 1/64th while the modern boards are calculate to the closest .0001. It might have been that a different engineering calculation was tried, at some point, as an experiment in improving intonation. Who knows?

Still, it's very interesting as I hadn't noticed the modern spacing on any old boards, before.

Charlie

[mandopete]

Darryl - that picture looks good enough to eat!

[banjo1]

The luchy owner of these twins has really got something to proud of Darrly
Great pics. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here is H5 #76491. Photo courtesy of our own F5JOE

[MML]

Nothing like a Loar signed mandolin with growth hormonial problem #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[johnwilson]

Sunset Park, PA, 1963 there's a guy trying to sell a Loar from the trunk of his car but there are no takers 'cause it's a mandola and the price is $475!

[Darryl Wolfe]

Great story John. #It kind of reminds me of some of the A-5 Loar stories. #"where is the scroll, I don't want that", and it also reminds me of how smaller bodied Martins were received (pearl or no pearl)

[Darryl Wolfe]

Some interesting info is posted in this thread
1923 Service Manual (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=31331;st=0;&#entry354242)

[f5joe]

Here is H5 #76491. #Photo courtesy of our own F5JOE
Boy, that mandola smelled jus' right!

[Darryl Wolfe]

Thanks for the photo Joe, that one had been documented by serial number only previously.

[mandophil(e)]

Darryl/Dan:

Any news on the "twins"? It seemed like the owners were considering putting them on the market, but no news has come out on that.

[Darryl Wolfe]

I haven't heard anything. Will check on status

[mandophil(e)]

Thought I'd give everybody something pretty to look at this morning.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Yep..I love those. The later dainty fern and logo, combined with the Loar style reverse tuners. The prettiest in my opinion. Here's 86652 where the inlay is positioned a shade different

[mandophil(e)]

The two are very close. The one I posted is 86104, FON 9619. I bet they're from the same batch. After a set-up by David Harvey it is a killer mandolin.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Well, this thread has to have Lloyd's Loar from the Loarfest thread. Of note is gold hardware, apparently original gold F4 style tailpiece. It also has a Virzi, intalled in a serial number batch that usually does not have one.

[danb]

I'll get my shots of Lloyd's up in a bit..

Here's 71901 1/12/23 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?75)

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/71901_face.jpg

[danb]

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/71901_back.jpg

[danb]

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/71901_scroll_front.jpg

[danb]

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/71901_scroll_back.jpg

[danb]

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/71901_peghead.jpg

[danb]

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/71901_serial.jpg

[danb]

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/71901_heel.jpg

[danb]

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/71901_peg_macro.jpg

[danb]

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/71901_flowerpot.jpg

[danb]

Back to 75315.. Loar's Loar. I tried to correct some spherical distortion in this image from my odd angle/lens choice. The mandolin looks about right, but the case got bent by the correction (it's straight in real life!)

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75315_back.jpg

[danb]

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75315_peghead.jpg

[danb]

Pickguard.. note where Roger plugged the holes from the pickup volume/tone knobs. Originally Lloyd had a pickup fitted to the top that was non-functional when Roger acquired this instrument.

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75315_pg_detail.jpg

[danb]

TP cover is not the normal style 5 type, but shows remnants of gold plating

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75315_tailpiece_cover.jpg

[danb]

Gold-plated tuner plates too..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75315_tuner_detail.jpg

[danb]

Here's my top shot. Color corrected just about right I think

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75315_face.jpg

[kudzugypsy]

dan, i can see the virzi thru the bass f hole - were these placed more to the bass side, or centered with the bridge? if centered, are they really that large?

i think that is great that rodger brought along THE loar - its a great story on how he tracked it down and finally came to own it. who knows what would have happened to that instrument, esp with LL passing away in the early 40's and him having no children - for it to stay in LL's wife's possession all those years....i DOUBT many of you loar owners would find that to be the case these days. (ie, your wife/heirs not cashing out asap)

interesting about the electronics. that was WAY ahead of its time. this could very well be historically important not only for being LL's personal mando, but even one of the first electricfied instruments. wow - take that les paul.

[danb]

they are centered.. check the loarfest thread for a pic of one "outside"

[stevem]

Wow. The quality of those pics is incredible. (Nice loar too...)

[jim simpson]

Dan,
The scroll looks pretty nice on that Loar but couldn't you take a black Sharpie and touch that baby up?

[f5loar]

What and ruin 80 years of character? It's the ultimate DMM.
That mandolin had so much class.

[mandoJeremy]

What causes the grain to show up in the wear so bad in the front shot of the scroll? Monroe's was like that I don't really understand why it looks that way. I know the strap causes it but you would think the finish wouldn't show the spruce's grain so much. It even still has the color in places but still has the ridges. Does this question make any sense at all?

[danb]

sure. ridges are tougher, stuff in-between less so, so that's how they wear

[Charlie Derrington]

Actually Jeremy, The wear on the back scroll is probably the strap and on the top scroll from a pick/fingernail. Dan's right, the softer grain between compresses easily, the harder grain lines don't.

Charlie

[Darryl Wolfe]

OK folks. The "coup de gras" "sp" for Loarfest. Pat Sauber was kind enough to let me download these photos from his camera. He had taken these a while back when the A5 "visited" him. Thank-you Pat, these have to be the best pictures ever taken of the A5

[Darryl Wolfe]

more

[Darryl Wolfe]

more

[Darryl Wolfe]

more

[Darryl Wolfe]

Last (for now)

[jasona]

I want that mandolin.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Another

[Darryl Wolfe]

another

[Darryl Wolfe]

last for now. Note how the peghead has angularity only at the shoulders, the end it cut square like snakeheads of the period. Another interesting note is the triple bound face of the peghead. This attribute did not show up for another 5-6 months on F5's and used the wider white binding when it did. Another observation: note the offcenter neck installation in the face on shots. This is an attribute of F5's and is usually not so prominent in typical A-models of the period

[Darryl Wolfe]

ok, one more closer on for the face

[HoGo]

they are centered.. check the loarfest thread for a pic of one "outside"
Dan, are you sure about this?
The feet were cut shorter on the treble side to compensate for the tone bar assymetry, but I believe that was not enough to center them exactly as the difference in tone bar position was too large to compensate for.
I wasn't there, I'd like to hear more about this...
Adrian

[Darryl Wolfe]

I agree with HOGO. #They were close but not exactly centered. #They had to be a bit closer to the bass side as the tone bars are. #Check the Virzi pic on the Loarfest thread. Page 2. They were trimmed, but likely not enough

[danb]

Sorry, I didn't mean to say they are exactly centered, just not wildly off-center. They "ride the tone bars", though not exactly.. original question I interpreted as being "are they under the bass fhole" instead of "Are they exactly centered"..

[markishandsome]

Which way is the neck angled? I remember hearing that on the Fs the angling made it closer to the scroll, but the way the strings break at the bridge makes it look (to me) like this one is angled the other way.

[Ken Waltham]

Man' I wish they'd put the pickguard back on that mandolin! It's getting some nasty wear on it.
Those tuners are EXACTLY like the ones I have here.
Cool.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here is a little tease for the day. More info to follow

[danb]

Tickle tickle!

[danb]

Here're more from supergrass.. Tony Williamson's or the Rybka (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?212)"

These are using some new tricks I've picked up for color calibration, hopefully they are a hair more accurate than some of my others

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75709_face.jpg

[danb]

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75709_back_detail.jpg

[danb]

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75709_flowerpot.jpg

[danb]

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75709_pg_bracket.jpg

[danb]

Finally, some good honest patina!

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75709_inlay.jpg

[danb]

Don't forget the driver!

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75709_tony.jpg

[Jim Hilburn]

You know, I'm backing up a bit but #71901 at the top of the previous page has a very unusual peghead scroll. Is there a chance this is a repair or is it the way it was made?

[rbmando]

Jim, you have a good eye! The peghead on 71901 was broken and repaired 20+ years ago.

[mandophil(e)]

Sure wish you'd reconsider Darryl. This is your baby! A whole lot of us appreciate everything you've done to raise everyone's awareness of these great mandolins.

[mandoJeremy]

I know exactly what you're talking about Darryl and I happen to very much agree with you. I do wish you would reconsider posting in this one though because I don't think ANYONE knows as much about Loars as you and Charlie Derrington. Your info is always appreciated by me and I'm sure many others here.

[mandopete]

Looks like a post got deleted.

[f5loar]

And I thought Bush was the only one listening in on my phone calls. Looks like we got censorship here too! Darryl can't just tease us with a newly discovered '22 like that and then be wiped off the face of the cafe!

[jasona]

And I thought Bush was the only one listening in on my phone calls.
Hey! Maybe ole Sammy wants your Nudie suit! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Darryl Wolfe]

That is correct, I deleted the post. #I received at least ten emails and PM's about it. #Thank-you to those that care about this thread and the concern voiced about some of the things happening. #Let's keep it centered on fact, display of Loar attributes and news that may be worth posting.

Here is a Loar pickguard bracket. #This plastic bracket is quite difficult to reproduce accurately due to the thickness of the different layers. #The nuts are also unique and have to be custom made for a reproduction to look correct. And the weird, thick, beveled washer which gets lost very easily is just about irreplaceable. #I've not seen a repro of any sort that is close enough to pass muster.

The June 1, 1922 Loar has a prototype metal bracket mounted to the top. #This was the first bracket of any sort that ventured away from the side clamp. #Only the Style 5 utilized the layered plastic bracket until all clamps and plastic brackets were replaced with a metal ones similar to the plastic one. This occurred at different times for a few models, but is generally around 1925.

[bluesmandolinman]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
uuffff he is back

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[f5loar]

Makes you wonder if that bevelved washer was just standard back in the 20's and they just grabbed one or was it designed just for the F5. Although it might be cost prohibited I'm sure somebody could get you an exact reproduction on that washer.
Glad you saw the light Darryl! Welcome back!

[danb]

Some paperwork.. First one is a detail from Darryl's Style 5 brochure..

[danb]

Close up of Lloyd

[danb]

The cover of the brochure

[danb]

The two little labels..

[danb]

A new world..

[danb]

Finally, kindly on loan from F5loar, here are a couple more teasers from the service manual. Rather than risk scanning it, I did entirely passive tripod photos of it, so there is a tiny bit of perspective skewing. As far as we know, this is the *only* copy that exists

[danb]

.

[danb]

.

[danb]

.

[danb]

.

[danb]

.

[danb]

.

[danb]

Pushing the virzi..

[danb]

While we're on Virzis.. uncovered by Bruce Harvie..

This is an endorsment letter from Lloyd

[danb]

page 2.. count the Guarneri! From what I could research on the net, Heifetz called his Guarneri (known as "The David" or "the Heifetz Guarneri" now) "the violin". It'd sure interest me to find out if one of the most famous violins of all time was at one time fitted with a virzi!

[danb]

I'm prepping some new stuff to showcase catalogs, paperwork, brochures, ads etc on the archive, quite a bit of content to add there- the service manual will show up in it's entirety there soon (lots about banjos though!), as well as some better versions of the style 5 brochure snippeted here.

Lots of nuggets of information in that book, including part numbers and descriptions of the original strings, picks, and other doo-dads that came with a new Gibson.

[Spruce]

This thread should be turned into a book.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[MML]

Looking foward to it Dan, your efforts are greatly appriciated http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Brier]

A Quart of Gasolin! Wow!

[Michael Lewis]

I don't think modern gasoline would be apropriate. With diferent techniques and more sophisticated equipment the refiners now extract much more "gasoline" than they did in the 1920s. It may work well enough in an internal combustion engine but the chemical make up is quite different now. But it MIGHT work, so YOU try it on YOUR Loar. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Daniel Nestlerode]

I don't think modern gasoline would be apropriate.

But it MIGHT work, so YOU try it on YOUR Loar. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
And use benzine only if you have donor organs lined up at some point in the future. That stuff is toxic.

I'm sure there are cleaning solvents that have fewer or no detrimental consequences to your health.

Personally, I like the stuff that Bruce Petros has come up with.

Daniel