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danb
Feb-28-2005, 12:28pm
His Roayl Lloydness..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75327_signature.jpg

danb
Feb-28-2005, 12:51pm
This detail shot is by request from spruce..

Brian Aldridge
Feb-28-2005, 12:58pm
wow, the color of is John's Loar is like an early '23, not dark like a typical Feb 18 1924. Has it been refinished? If so, they nailed the early '23 color.

danb
Feb-28-2005, 1:15pm
My pictures are a tiny bit oversaturated still, but it does have a distinct reddish-orange tint..

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-28-2005, 1:16pm
I agree, and questioned Dan about the lighting. My pics appear much darker (I never seen it in person)

danb
Feb-28-2005, 1:17pm
Here's a favorite detail.. note how the frets on the extension line up with the binding..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/73728_extension.jpg

danb
Feb-28-2005, 1:18pm
Yes.. those are bright sunlight photos.. but I think the color is right (maybe just not the brightness). Outdoor lighting is quite a bit warmer in color..

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-28-2005, 1:27pm
note the "1924" bulge on the left side of the extension...'23 are straighter more parallel to the right side (up there around 25-29th fret. Dan, which one is that?

danb
Feb-28-2005, 1:33pm
July 9th.. 73728

Darryl Wolfe
Feb-28-2005, 1:45pm
I've just reviewed my photos of that mando...finish is '24ish, pickguard is 24ish...another July 9 anomoly

danb
Feb-28-2005, 2:20pm
OK, here's April 12, 1923 F5 # 72853 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?97)

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/72853_hang_tag.jpg

danb
Feb-28-2005, 2:21pm
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/72853_scroll.jpg

danb
Feb-28-2005, 2:21pm
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/72853_face.jpg

danb
Feb-28-2005, 2:22pm
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/72853_back_detail.jpg

danb
Feb-28-2005, 2:22pm
This is the only one I know of with an apparently original monogram on the tailpiece cover

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/72853_tailpiece_cover.jpg

danb
Feb-28-2005, 2:23pm
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/72853_tuners_neck.jpg

danb
Feb-28-2005, 3:50pm
My pictures of 71634 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?13) were in worse lighting..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/71634_face.jpg

danb
Feb-28-2005, 3:51pm
Back

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/71634_back_detail.jpg

jasona
Mar-01-2005, 12:07am
$250? Hell, I'll give you $300 for that old piece of junk! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Tom C
Mar-01-2005, 1:41pm
"old piece of junk"? -....It was new at one time.

danb
Mar-01-2005, 7:25pm
Hey folks, help me out here. Would any of you like to see a coffee table book of Darryl's notes and my photos http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif It's getting closer...

Scotti Adams
Mar-01-2005, 7:31pm
Hell yea

Charlie Derrington
Mar-01-2005, 7:41pm
Looks like the April is needing a refret already. Damn that wire that only lasts for 80 years.

Charlie

danb
Mar-01-2005, 7:42pm
Hey Charlie, it frets pretty good.. for now...

Charlie Derrington
Mar-01-2005, 8:14pm
Yeah Dan, but look at the grooves in the picture with the price tag. Tsk, tsk.

danb
Mar-01-2005, 8:22pm
Heh. I hear ya, but for now it "notes good" to quote another mandolin player http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

futrconslr
Mar-01-2005, 8:35pm
I would be afraid to refret it. What are the original frets worth a couple grand per?

evanreilly
Mar-01-2005, 8:36pm
Yeah.... I've heard ole William Smith Monroe make that 'Notes Good!' comment about very few mandolins.....

ShaneJ
Mar-01-2005, 8:38pm
Dan, put me on the list for a coffee table book. When will they be available?

danb
Mar-01-2005, 8:43pm
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

All y'all help me talk Darryl into it? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

ShaneJ
Mar-01-2005, 9:45pm
I'll employ the method my kids use.....

"Come on, Darryl! Please! Please! Please!!!" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Darryl Wolfe
Mar-02-2005, 10:55am
The first step will probably include digitizing some of my 100,000+ 35mm pics...with that and Dans stuff we could do it right

dgw

JimW
Mar-02-2005, 11:17am
Darryl, with that many 35mm shots, if you have the negatives to all those, I would suggest a negative or film scanner. The resolution of most of these will rival today's digital cameras. Plus, it would be easier than trying to scan that many 35mm prints I would think. Anyway, sounds like a neat project.

Jim

johnwilson
Mar-02-2005, 6:54pm
It doesn't seem that many years ago I joined others in persuading Mike Longworth to write a little history book - only to have him return the favor by writing asking me to draft a letter with a sales forecast for his publisher.

If I could bend Darryl's ear today, I think I would suggest the F-5 Journal should be published on DVD(s). This is the only way I can imagine keeping all those wonderful photos in a large, high resolution format. Not only can we have photos of each and every instrument, but the DVD offers us the ability to accompany the pictures with sound files of the instruments, players, builders - you name it. And you can still print the pictures you want to sit on the coffee table!

danb
Mar-02-2005, 8:58pm
Here are some great new pictures from Lowell Levinger of July 9, 1923 Loar F5 #73723 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?2529)

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/73723_face.jpg

danb
Mar-02-2005, 8:59pm
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/73723_scroll_back.jpg

danb
Mar-02-2005, 8:59pm
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/73723_peghead.jpg

Darryl Wolfe
Mar-03-2005, 9:24am
Very nice...I had not seen this one. This instrument has a transitional look to it. It has the orange coloration, well defined grain lines in the top and slightly prominent bindings and scroll work that are usually associated with the April mandolins...yet the edges of the sunburst are of the walnut color associated with July and December 23's.

Charlie Derrington
Mar-03-2005, 10:48am
In my opinion, the height of the Loar period. (along with the Dec. 11 batch)

Charlie

mandopete
Mar-03-2005, 6:41pm
Some scroll..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75327_scroll_front.jpg
Dan,

This scroll from JR's Loar makes a great computer screen background!

f5loar
Mar-03-2005, 8:49pm
A coffe book is better since you can take it anywhere without electricty and still look at it in daylight. Getting the info and the photos is not the problem. The problem is the $$$$$. If every comando kicks in $100 towards the cause and a signed limited edition copy of the first printing is the reward it could fly easily. I'll kick in $500 for my first 5 copies.

ShaneJ
Mar-03-2005, 9:38pm
I'd kick in $100 for that.

danb
Mar-04-2005, 12:20pm
I asked John about the color in the pictures of his Loar. The ones I posted here at first are too orange. The ones at the archive are close to color accurate as far as he can see.

johnwilson
Mar-04-2005, 12:26pm
Unfortunately, I don't think you're any where close on the price of the book. I'm afraid what everyone wants is likely to cost something more like a set of encyclopedias! 270 full page front, full color pictures, 270 full page, full color back pictures, 270 full page, full color headstocks, scrolls or other detail pictures. Any how could we leave out the 270 Loar signatures?
Coated paper, hardcover, perfect binding...whew.
So far I've printed the 100 or so pictures I wanted IN FULL COLOR on 80 lb. 8 1/2 x 11 glossy stock which cost $12 a rheem and I've spent $102 on ink and $18 for the binder and protective plastic sheets. It's pretty impressive but if I print one more signature I'm going to be sent away for a full mental evaluation!

Tom C
Mar-04-2005, 12:31pm
And we want the 4/C pics to be liquid laminated. I think this would be a floor book and would be great.

Darryl Wolfe
Mar-04-2005, 12:38pm
johnwilson...no kidding? I'm impressed with your interest in the subject

f5loar
Mar-05-2005, 12:19am
I thought we are talking "coffee table" sized book not a little 8X10. They start at 9X10 and go up to 11X17.
Now if you got a good front and back on one page,the detail shots of the headstock,scroll,signature,serial no. on the back of that page that is only one page per Loar.
I don't think photos of 270 Loars are out there yet.
Go with what is out there along with reading information in big print so grade 3 school kids and seniors can read it and you got a nice easy to handle 250 page book.
Up my order to 6 signed copies.

f5loar
Mar-05-2005, 12:21am
Sorry, typo, meant to say they start at 9X12!

Spruce
Mar-05-2005, 12:20pm
Check out the quality, layout, and prices of the full-size Strad and Amati iconographies as a reference...

I haven't checked lately, but man are they up there $-wise...

And in very high demand....

Darryl Wolfe
Mar-21-2005, 10:02am
I put this here instead of starting a new thread..but

Here is the inlay on my 1925 A-2. It's a fairly obscure pattern that I've seen only a few times. I noticed this weekend while picking it some that it is cut entirely from one piece of pearl....and it combines both open technique and closed technique whereby you have to drill holes to insert the saw blade when cutting...very very strange. The two std patterns on Loars are either one way or the other.

danb
Mar-21-2005, 10:04am
Compare 76547.. open pattern

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/76547_peghead_logo_macro.jpg

Darryl Wolfe
Mar-21-2005, 10:07am
closed pattern

danb
Mar-21-2005, 10:08am
Closed #2

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75327_peghead.jpg

good_ol_al_61
Mar-21-2005, 1:55pm
Darryl and Dan:

You guys make these mandolins "come to life" with your descriptions. I would have never thought to look for these subtlties when looking at older mandolins. Thanks for the free yet valuable education. I guess I'll have to go to more yard sales and take a closer look at instruments this year.

mandopete
Mar-21-2005, 8:23pm
Dan - that is one sick close-up on 76547

Is that Reischman's Loar on #2?

danb
Mar-22-2005, 4:31am
Mandopete, yes and yes http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

The photoshoot I did of JR's Loar at Wintergrass worked out very well I thought. I'll make nice big photo prints of those available online somwhere soon, several of those are going on the wall here when I get them back from the framer

mandopete
Mar-22-2005, 9:47am
Yes, those shots of JR's Loar are wonderful. I have the one you posted of the scroll set as my computer background.

Don Grieser
Mar-22-2005, 12:34pm
I love the look of JReischman's peghead where it's obvious that thing has been re-strung a few thousand times. More utilitarian than museum piece. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

danb
Apr-08-2005, 5:52am
OK, here's a batch of photos I took at wintergrass of "Scratcy" aka "The Shoplifted Loar" aka F5 79833 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?290). First off, here's a macro shot of the guarantee label outside of the instrument.. recall that this was steamed off to reveal the pencilled-in serial number a little over a year ago..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/79833_guarantee_label_db.jpg

danb
Apr-08-2005, 5:53am
Here's my shot of the Serial Number that is now revealed with the label off:

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/79833_serial_number_db.jpg

danb
Apr-08-2005, 5:54am
Scratchy is pretty close to immaculate. Gorgeous example of the late Loars with the dark edging to the finish, show here on the scroll

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/79833_scroll_front_db.jpg

danb
Apr-08-2005, 5:55am
Back view of the scroll

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/79833_scroll_back_db.jpg

danb
Apr-08-2005, 5:57am
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/79833_peghead_db.jpg

danb
Apr-08-2005, 5:59am
Top, showing some silking figure on the bass side. Spruce- what could you tell us about the cut of wood and the species from that figure?

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/79833_bridge_db.jpg

Spruce
Apr-08-2005, 12:51pm
Scratchy is such a cool mandolin....

Well, the topwood on Loars is a pretty interesting can 'o worms...

It's actually pretty rare to see a top with a bunch of silking, one of the reasons being that a lot of those tops are extraordinarily off-quarter.
I'm talking like this: #/////////

Or even more, in some cases....
A lot more...

Off-quarter wood gives a very dull appearance under varnish--a look that the modern eye is not really used to.
Modern makers are pretty anal about quartered wood these days (as well they should be), so most mandolins made these days, whether by factories or custom makers, display lots silking and spider-webbing, regardless of spruce species.

The Loars, or at least quite a few of them, look "washed-out" and rather boring under varnish, the result of being made from off-quarter wood.

By the way, I know of at least 2 very well-known mando makers who have been building with wood that is equally off-quarter, because the other attributes of the wood (age, density, etc.) outweigh in their mind the "flaw" that the wood is severly off-quarter...
If it was good enough for Lloyd, it's good enough for them....

I would love to be a fly on the wall in the woodroom at Kalamazoo in the early 20's...

Because somebody really wanted Red Spruce in those F5s...

And they were willing to sacrafice a lot to get that species on those instruments...

Mismatched and off-quartered wood is common, and all fingers point to the Loar tops being constructed from a pile of 1x6 Red Spruce lumber that was selected to be relatively runout free.
But the aforementioned "flaws" didn't seem to bug them enough to not use the tops they wound up using...

There's a very interesting story behind this decision lurking out there somewhere...

danb
Apr-08-2005, 1:25pm
OK, ginormous photo, but it's really needed for this detail..

check the bass side on this one too spruce..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/73992_front3.jpg

Spruce
Apr-08-2005, 1:57pm
Looks to be bookmatched and quartered, with a tad of runout...

Did U get a good shot of the mismatch in Reischmann's...?

One side of that is very off-quarter as well...
I think the bass side...

danb
Apr-08-2005, 3:24pm
Bruce, do you have any sort of "sample cuts of wood" photos you could share? Reason I ask is I'm looking at the cuts of wood on the tops of Loars etc after some recent chatter with Jamie Wiens.. It'd be really cool to see them here (end shots showing what happens to the grain layout maybe?) in relation to Loars they appear to match?

Spruce
Apr-08-2005, 3:46pm
Man, that's a tough one with the digital camera I have...
I need to upgrade...

Generally speaking, if you deviate even a couple degrees off of perfect quarter (IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII), and I mean exactly 90 degrees, you start to lose your silking...

That's why in an archtop instrument, you 'll have patches of silking that are stronger than other areas. #The arch, by it's very nature, will start to roll off quarter, and then, as it reaches the recurve, will be on-quarter again...

In a flattop guitar, you might see silking all the way across the instrument....

Again, in a flattop guitar (like the many that you see from 40-50's with off-quarter tops), you might see a whole top that is lacking in any sort of silking whatsoever...

Just like in quite a few of the Loars...

Again, the modern eye doesn't get to see this all that much, with all the perfectly milled wood that is out-and-about....

danb
Apr-08-2005, 6:26pm
73728's peghead leaning on some of Bruce's blocks at wintergrass:

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/73728_peghead2.jpg

danb
Apr-08-2005, 6:26pm
scroll..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/73728_scroll_front_db.jpg

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/73728_scroll_back.jpg

mandoryan
Apr-09-2005, 11:13am
Really great pics dan! Thanks for sharing.

That's got to be one of the best and cleanest looking pegheads too. It's darn near perfect with the binding and inlay and proportions. Purty...

Darryl Wolfe
Apr-14-2005, 2:35pm
75844 @ Skinner

Darryl Wolfe
Apr-14-2005, 2:36pm
back

Darryl Wolfe
Apr-14-2005, 2:37pm
peg

Darryl Wolfe
Apr-14-2005, 2:38pm
Dan, how 'bout posting a high res one

danb
Apr-14-2005, 4:00pm
76779 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?260)

Face..

Replaced pickguard is pretty easy to spot. Frets also look larger, and fingerboard inlays are not original to Loars

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/76779_face.jpg

danb
Apr-14-2005, 4:01pm
Truss rod cover is upside down http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Bushings replaced with 6-sided thingies. The fern itself has greenish pieces in the middle just like 76547 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/76547)

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/76779_peghead.jpg

danb
Apr-14-2005, 4:04pm
The same little harp wingus is on the truss rod cover..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/76779_tailpiece_cover.jpg

danb
Apr-14-2005, 4:05pm
Nice Back

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/76779_back_detail.jpg

danb
Apr-14-2005, 4:16pm
75884 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?3280) is a new addition to the Journal and the archives!

This one has the original fingerboard and pickguard

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75844_face.jpg

danb
Apr-14-2005, 4:16pm
Tuning pegs from 2 different tuner batches! Treble side (left) has 3 screws, bass side (right) has 5

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75844_tuners.jpg

danb
Apr-14-2005, 4:17pm
Beautiful flowerpot, and another upside-down truss rod cover!

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75844_peghead.jpg

danb
Apr-14-2005, 4:18pm
Another nice back. Heavier curl on the left.

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75844_back_detail.jpg

danb
Apr-14-2005, 4:20pm
All of these pictures come courtesy of David Bonsey of Skinner, Inc (http://www.skinnerinc.com). They are both up for auction on May 8th 2005 in Boston, along with a nice F-style Mandolin and Mandola

Jim Hilburn
Apr-14-2005, 5:01pm
75884 looks like the previous owner had a little trouble figuring out where the strings were.

mandopete
Apr-14-2005, 6:42pm
Nah, it's a distressed model!

danb
Apr-16-2005, 1:56pm
OK, Jamie Wiens did some check-up on a theory that came from either Bruce Harvie or Jamie.. we'd been chatting that the cleary visible discrepency in the grain widths of the bass & treble side of John Reischman's Loar (often discussed here) was possibly caused by the cut of the wood..

This photoshopped picture sort of shows it, black line showing what I see as the grain orientation on the bass side..

danb
Apr-16-2005, 1:57pm
If you're a photoshop jockey, try sliding the middle adjuster on "Adjust levels" and you can see the grain edges appear/dissapear more clearly than I was able to show here..

By the way, that's the top of the bass f-hole, picture taken from roughly the scroll...

mandophil(e)
Apr-18-2005, 3:20pm
I was wondering if anybody has an idea about the number, or percentage, of existing Loars that have Virzi's--I guess what I'm wondering is what percentage were originally made with Virzi's, and how many Loars are out there with them today. Anybody got any idea?

f5loar
Apr-18-2005, 10:22pm
It's safe to say the majority of the '22 and '23 do not have the Virzi as in '23 you had to pay extra for it but in '24 the Virzi was included no extra charge so the majority of the '24 do have it since most customers at the time did not know what it was and since it was not extra cost why not have it. I've not counted the actual count of '24's that have had it removed but there are dozens.
Some were factory removed when customers complained.

danb
Apr-19-2005, 1:44am
A quick unscientific scan of the archive shows me

89 Loars marked as having a virzi originally
80 Loars with Virzi s/n known
19 "virzi removed" notes in F5s..
3 "virzi removed" notes in H5s..
259 Loar-signed instruments total
212 F5 Mandolins
22 L5 Guitars
18 H5 Mandolas
6 K5 Mandocellos

327 F5s total (loar signed and otherwise)
470 instrument records in the Loar period

The certainly "take the edges off", my take it's it's similar to hearing an instrument miked up and using light compression. You lose volume on the "spikes" or the parts where the instrument is "hot", but you do get a very nice even separated tone. Takes the "Bark" off a bluegrass chop in my opinion, but gives you a nicer melody note in the bargain.

f5loar
Apr-21-2005, 11:56pm
Dan you need to say of those 89 with Virzi how many are '24's and '23's.

f5loar
Apr-21-2005, 11:58pm
Or is that the '24 count?

danb
Apr-22-2005, 9:15am
8 1923s, 80 1924.. (not sure how I had 89 in my count last time)

Jonathan James
May-09-2005, 9:11am
I'm dying for some new "Loar Pics of the Day"...

Dan?

danb
May-09-2005, 9:18am
Well that's the trouble with these things, there's only a finite amount of them http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Maybe we'll have some new ones soon from the Skinner buyers..

Darryl Wolfe
May-09-2005, 1:08pm
Check the Ronnie McCoury thread on Gen Mando

danb
May-11-2005, 3:34am
This
March 31 1924 Fern F5 #72541 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?2998)
is currently for sale at Larry Wexer's page (http://www.wexerguitars.com)
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/72541_face2.jpg

Jonathan James
May-11-2005, 5:12am
Man, that is gorgeous. And ONLY $150K. Wonder what Ronnie's new acquisition put him back...

f5loar
May-11-2005, 1:08pm
That's a steal at that price. Minty Fern Loars are few and far inbetween. It's the old "go find another one" logic.
I know of others for sale but not near that cheap.

mandophil(e)
May-11-2005, 6:08pm
Do Fern Loars command a premium? If so, why? How many are there?

f5loar
May-11-2005, 10:10pm
They are simply put the "Rolls Royce" of the Loar signed mandolins holding a near tie to the famous "resversed" side bound July 9th batch. Only a few dozen made in both batches. The Fern pattern was considered Loars prized possession in his early work at Gibson.

avanti
May-12-2005, 7:00am
Hey, top bound July 9ths are at least Bentleys.

Darryl Wolfe
May-12-2005, 8:04am
Come on Tommy...do you have reincarnatable ESP abilities? #Lloyd Loars' personal F5 was a flowerpot. #The Fern Loars are indeed rare, and since it is "fancier" and rarer it can be considered more desirable. #But beyond that a Fern Loar is just another Loar signed F5 mandolin. Given, if all Loars were to dissappear except for one representative example, I would vote for a nice clean Fern Loar w/Virzi. But I wouldn't be voting that way with overall best killer Loar sound at the top of my list.

There is much evidence that the original design for the F5 was intended to be a Fern. #It appears that the design took a while to implement though. #Reasonable assumption would be that they ordered the pre-cut fern inlay from Germany and it took over a year to receive the large order..hence the first Fern inlays in March 24 instead of the mid/late 22 period when the F5 was introduced

Charlie Derrington
May-12-2005, 8:41am
Darryl..

I'm not so sure that the F-5 was originally planned to be a Fern pattern. The earliest prints I can find have a Flowerpot inlay. These prints are dated 1921. It's more likely that after they ordered the initial run of head veneers, they rethought things and decided the Fern was the way to go.

Charlie

danb
May-12-2005, 9:06am
Doesn't the first catalog show a fern peghead though?

Darryl Wolfe
May-12-2005, 9:24am
The first catalog renderings are the basis of my assumption. I have nothing other than that to go on. My only other thought on the subject is that it seems prudent that a new model would have a new inlay or higher level of trim.

The original spec sheet for the "new model" indicates that the rim/back dimensions shall be "same as F4". When it addresses the peghead veneer it specifies "according to drawing", not "same as F4". All of this is very subjective.

danb
May-12-2005, 9:27am
That catalog image has always made me wonder if there is somewhere a prototype with a fern on the peghead.. that that image was drawn from..

I guess another question might be if they did the catalogs before or after the model was in production!

mandophil(e)
May-12-2005, 10:30am
So are Fern Loars identical to other '24 Loars other than the inlay? Same dimensions and construction? Did they command a higher price when new?

danb
May-12-2005, 10:38am
Different peghead yes.. they mostly seem to get a nice brown/orange sunburst with a medium-sized (roughly the light area matches the f-holes in diameter).. have nice woods.. almost all virzis (because they are '24s when that was the default).. they aren't as common as any other batches, so they have an added badge of rarity. The body & construction is the same as far as I know.

The later ferns (post-loar) are lacquered and have a different look to the fern inlay. The Loar ones usually have some green abalone in the mix, later ones start getting more of a pearl to plain white look.

To me there is just something about the combo of that fern inlay and the brown/orange burst that I really like. I'm also a virzi fan..

Charlie Derrington
May-12-2005, 10:57am
Yeah, I know Darryl and Dan.......

However, those prints give me reason to question my original assumptions. Also, you know how it is, get it built and introduced....we'll deal with the details later. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Charlie

Ken Waltham
May-13-2005, 9:46am
I had never really thought about the idea of the Fern peghead inlay being the original intent of the new Master Model F5 before. That is an interesting hypothesis.
You know, given that catalog drawing, and the overlay to be "according to drawing", that could just be.
An interesting thought. I will say, I still prefer the flowerpot, and I think always will. I love the understated elegance, which is what draws me to Loar F5's in general. They are not overly flashy, but have that European, violin type look.
But, seeing what I have over the years, it would make perfect sense to me that Gibson would use up some F4 flowerpot inlays, until the "new" Fern inlays became available for production.

danb
May-14-2005, 4:18pm
The "Roy B Veiock", f5 #72211 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?2897), from an anonymous submittor

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/72211_back_detail2.jpg

danb
May-14-2005, 4:20pm
A business card from the original owner, still in the case:

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/72211_business_card.jpg

danb
May-14-2005, 4:20pm
The front isn't half bad either..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/72211_front_2.jpg

Charlie Derrington
May-15-2005, 12:44am
Now we're talking !!

Charlie

danb
May-15-2005, 8:43am
only 2 or 3 years of playing time on that one.. the original owner died in a car accident in 1928, after taking delivery of it in 1926. Another interesting thing about that is the fact that it was signed & dated in 1923, adding more direct evidence to ideas Darryl has expressed that many of these Loar-signed f5s didn't leave Kalamazoo until well after Lloyd had moved on.

Check the condition of the tailpiece cover, among everything else. Eek!

Edit- oops.. I'm mixing up stories between instruments. I have no information about when this instrument was shipped.. sorry for the confusion! I also had stated it was signed 1924.. it was 1923. (slaps self on head)

f5loar
May-15-2005, 4:44pm
As far as Lloyd's personal F5 being a flowerpot he just grabbed the first one that he liked going out the door to tour with the Gibsonians that summer. Sure it happened to be a July 9th but it was not a reversed binding one and there were no Ferns laying around for him to grab. He pretty much had his pick of all of them until December 1924 to be his own Lloyd's Loar. He could have held back any F5 previous to that July 9th one to have as his own.
Why not a fancy gold plated one like they made for William Place? Or he could have done up one Fern in July for his own. I'd think he carried enough weight at that time to get what ever he wanted.
And Darryl it's hard not to be in support of Fern Loars when you own one. They are special!

ronlane3
May-15-2005, 10:08pm
Very cool. Talk about a dream come true, having your pick of any instrument made in 1923 or 24.

mandoJeremy
May-16-2005, 1:23am
Dan, that is SO beautiful. It does remind me of some of the current Master Models.

mandopete
May-16-2005, 9:13am
That buisness card is cool, I feel like I'm watching Antiques Roadshow!

Darryl Wolfe
May-16-2005, 11:43am
F5Loar/Tommy...I hate to keep contradicting you..but Lloyd's personal Loar was not a July 9. It was an FPot Feb 18, 1924 w/Virzi. The serial number will remain withheld by special request, but there is no question as to the batch the mandolin belongs to.

Brian Ray
May-16-2005, 12:17pm
I had the distinct pleasure of playing Lloyd's Loar... I'd say Lloyd did just fine in his selection.

mandoryan
May-16-2005, 2:01pm
Boy oh boy!!! That 72211 is one nice specimen. I would love to play that pretty girl!

May-16-2005, 2:34pm
Thanks a lot, Dan. I've now got a new drool spot on my tie after looking at your pics. The back of that Veiock loar is really something.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

f5loar
May-16-2005, 3:13pm
Oh yes that one. Well he had 2 then.

danb
May-20-2005, 2:54pm
Here's 84469, a 1925 f5 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?2720). The ink on Lloyd's pink slip would still be drying at this point..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/84469_face.jpg

danb
May-20-2005, 2:55pm
This pegehead shows the nice colored abalone in the middle of the fern like the Loars would rather than the later solid white..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/84469_peghead.jpg

Spruce
May-20-2005, 2:57pm
"The ink on Lloyd's pink slip would still be drying at this point.."

Looks like the varnish is still drying on 84469....

Philip Halcomb
May-20-2005, 2:59pm
Just box that one up Dan and send it over... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

danb
May-20-2005, 3:00pm
Sometimes it's agony when people send me so many pictures of nice old mandolins http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Darryl Wolfe
May-20-2005, 3:45pm
That mandolin is of the premium Fern era. #There have not been many pics of these posted on this thread. #This is actually a '26 era mandolin and the finish is in fact lacquer. #Note that is has larger tuner bushings and white binding throughout. #Some of these, like this one retain the hand engraved, but gold tailpiece, along with the plastic pickguard bracket. #These went away soon after. #If you look at the side view on the mandoarchive site you can see the lower bridge as a function of arching or neck angle and more prominent arching in the upper back. #Additionally, you can detect the slight profile change to the shape of the scroll (there is a little less mass or meat in the 1 oclock to 3 oclock area. The lacquer finish on these is not exactly the way we think of lacquer today. It is much more of a sanding sealer type of lacquer that checks in very small squares

Charlie Derrington
May-20-2005, 5:34pm
Certainly is lacquer. Well past (IMHO) the unsigned bunch. Darryl is (as usual) dead on. Start of the "Fern" period. Pretty soon they'll have the typical Fern appointments. I think (big emphasis on "think") that this one would run into late April or May '25.

A better representation of a transition instrument is 82369. Lacquer over varnish, large bushings, celluloid bracket, flowerpot, etc.


Charlie

GTison
May-20-2005, 6:07pm
INTERESTING, the photos of 82369 show the mandolin with and without a dot at the 3rd fret.

prayerbone
May-20-2005, 9:07pm
dan, were you saying the guy in the picture roy b veiock the instructor died in the car accident? man thats such a pretty mandolin,sad story though...aj

Christian
May-20-2005, 11:42pm
Quote : #I think (big emphasis on "think") that this one would run into late April or May '25.

That's interesting, Charlie. Would you then consider that all the Ferns with earlier serial numbers (Earl Taylor's, Bobby Osborne's, Ralph Rinzler's, Wayne Benson's), which were considered to be 26 or 27 were also built in 1925, or are they not chronological? I guess the FON also has its importance when it comes to dating these.

Christian Séguret

danb
May-21-2005, 3:38am
Yes, the guy in the picture was the original owner who died quite young in a car accident. Sad story!

My point on that fern being like the earlier ones was the fern inlay itself actually, the green abalone in the middle of it matches the loars better than the later ones.. for example (76547):

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/76547_fern_inlay.jpg

And a later one (86104)



http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/86104_peghead.jpg

danb
May-31-2005, 7:12pm
New pictures of f5 #85370 (http://ww.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?2914)

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/85370_face.jpg

danb
May-31-2005, 7:12pm
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/85370_back_detail.jpg

danb
May-31-2005, 7:13pm
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/85370_fern.jpg

danb
May-31-2005, 7:13pm
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/85370_case2.jpg

danb
May-31-2005, 7:14pm
Not a Loar mind you, but certainly has some interesting features. Care to weigh in on it Darryl? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim Hilburn
May-31-2005, 9:11pm
What's with the tuner shafts being so far down in the bushings?

ShaneJ
May-31-2005, 9:30pm
Beautiful! Did they brush on the stain? Kinda looks like it - especially on the top.

danb
Jun-01-2005, 3:09am
Bigger bushings than the Loars, it's kind of an optical illusion that way

bluesmandolinman
Jun-01-2005, 3:52am
Dan,
please stop posting these pictures or I will tell my wife that YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MY MAS and she will pull out her voodoo doll and punish you http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Darryl Wolfe
Jun-01-2005, 9:34am
This is a very interesting specimen. As you can see it looks nothing like the true Fern posted above with Lloyds pink slip annotation.

This instrument really appears to be a late '22 instrument. This is based on the cut of wood in the back, stain patterning, shape of scroll and the ridge line of the scroll. It also appears to have the very slightly smaller f-holes of the 22's (can't be sure on that one)

Dan and I have been discussing alot of these "odd instruments" and have concluded that certain manufacturing process steps happened in a different order than what we would expect. This is the only answer that accounts for certain combinations present on some instruments. We will report on this as we solidify our opinions on the subject.

Back to the mandolin...It is certainly oversprayed with laquer and has the appropriate binding and parts commensurate with the serial number.

Charlie Derrington
Jun-01-2005, 9:57am
Wish I could look at this one a little more closely.

I can't tell (through the yellow) if the headstock binding is white or ivoroid and it looks as if the body binding is white ??

Again, it's hard to tell, but the whole thing (if period correct) should be white binding.

Charlie

Darryl Wolfe
Jun-01-2005, 10:03am
My point on that fern being like the earlier ones was the fern inlay itself actually, the green abalone in the middle of it matches the loars better than the later ones.. for example (76547):
I need to clarify/correct Dan a bit here. #There are two distinct fern patterns. #There is the wider more colored pattern which was used on Loars and well on into the later 20's. #Then there is the narrow dainty pattern which showed less and less color during it's 3-4 year tenure. #81xxx-85xxx ferns are identical to the Loar fern pattern. #The narrower pattern is almost always associated with the cleaner/smoother/daintier "The Gibson" inlay shown on the little inset picture Dan posted above

Ken Waltham
Jun-01-2005, 2:14pm
Just one more statement, to totally add to the confusion.
The small inset.. 86104 is mine, and it is, in fact, a "transitional" pattern, unlike others I have owned. It is neither as "fat" as the early Ferns, nor as slim as the later ones. I have owned 87346, and it was slimmer in design, but, no less colourful.
I have seen later ones than that, primarily in the 30's, that are fairly devoid of colour.
87367 was a Fern I had missing it's top leaf, was a 1929 model Guarantee label, and had a super colourful inlay, with blue, pink and green.
Go figure.

Darryl Wolfe
Jun-01-2005, 2:57pm
I generally agree with Ken, but would only add that there are only 2 distinct patterns. The width of the cut may vary slightly from one to another. This is the case with 86104 which is slightly fatter than others, but it is still the later pattern. 86104 is a bit unusual having quite a bit of color. If you check the "archive", the mandolins following on the whole are far whiter/devoid of color

Darryl Wolfe
Jun-01-2005, 3:04pm
Wish I could look at this one a little more closely.

I can't tell (through the yellow) if the headstock binding is white or ivoroid and it looks as if the body binding is white ??

Again, it's hard to tell, but the whole thing (if period correct) should be white binding.

Charlie
I tend to think that one is ivoroid (on the peghead)..lending credibility to the odd assembly process I mentioned. #We are actually beginning to think the overlays may have be installed (in some cases) after the instrument was finished. #We are almost certain the pegheads were drilled after the instrument was finished (as in varnished, laquered) #There are just too many unexplainable oddities in the process, and weird to our current way of thinking assembly orders make them make sense

danb
Jun-01-2005, 4:53pm
Charlie- check the fingerboard extension photo. You can sort of see it there. Where there is wear, it's white. I think it's the lacquer over the original finish that makes it yellow.

Charlie Derrington
Jun-01-2005, 6:48pm
Yeah Dan, I was pretty sure about the body and FB binding. It was the head veneer that caught my eye. I'd almost bet the HV binding was also white.

Charlie

danb
Jun-02-2005, 2:33pm
Yes again http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

There are a few tiny wear spots where it's pure white!

meskalito
Jun-06-2005, 10:08am
I am grateful for all the work that has been done in this thread. I've enjoyed it.

What kind of finish did the Loars have?

76547
Jun-23-2005, 1:47pm
Hi all,

Back a few pages I see the Veiock loar. Mr. Veiock being an instructor and Gibson agent from New Brighton, PA. It makes me wonder if he was the guy who introduced my grandfather, Chas. Carter - 1st owner of 76547, to the Gibson mandolin. New Brighton is very close to where my grandfather was.

danb
Jun-23-2005, 3:27pm
That's an interesting link Jack.. probably a bit too much of a coincidence to not have some kind of relationship

danb
Jun-26-2005, 9:04am
F5 #75554, Feb 18 1924 (http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/90U-4291.htm) is at Elderly.. previously undocumented, same signature date as John Reishman's..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75554_face.jpg

danb
Jun-26-2005, 9:17am
Yum..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75554_in-case.jpg

danb
Jun-26-2005, 9:18am
It's a good week for documenting new Master Models... more in the works..

danb
Jun-26-2005, 9:19am
Back..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75554_body-back.jpg

danb
Jun-26-2005, 9:20am
Scroll.. not quite as angular as JR's..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/75554_scroll-front.jpg

danb
Jun-26-2005, 9:30am
Here's a nice new photo of F5 #73994 July 9 1924 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?3227)

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/73994_in_case_front.jpg

jasona
Jun-26-2005, 11:11am
Can you say "mint"? Wowsers!

mandophil(e)
Jun-26-2005, 11:26am
Dan:

Can you or Darryl explain the comment in the description of #73994 about "holdover featuessuch as the bulge in the fingerboard extension". I'm looking at it versus early '23 Loars, and am not seeing it. Thanks.

Brian Aldridge
Jun-26-2005, 11:39am
is 73994 lacquered? Looks like the same finish as 82369.

danb
Jun-26-2005, 2:56pm
73994 is just very clean.. it's easy to take a shot from the right angle that hides the typical varnish craze lines, but if you look at this one..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/73994_scroll.jpg

About "holdover features".. We use that to describe a mandolin that shows features of 2 distinct building periods or batches.. the idea being that it was made at one time, and the final set-up or finishing even might have occurred later.. This explains some of the "Unsigned Loars" that have batch numbers or serial numbers from the middle of the Loar period, later tuner types/etc.. Perhaps some of these were built faster than the orders came in, so they weren't built all at once.

So, on 73994..
Darryl notes that there is black in the finish, which is more a '24 feature..
I noticed that the stamping on the tuner plates (flowers etc) looks like the March 24 batch (including Jack's Fern)
The bulge on the fingerboard extension (bass side) is a '24 feature usually.. most of the 22/23 ones are straight on the bass side of the extension..

So anyway, this adds up to a couple of possibilities.. maybe it was partially built during the July 9 batch, finished in '24? Darryl also noted to me at the time that that matches Monroe's on some of the features.

mandoman15
Jun-26-2005, 5:23pm
love that 24 from elderly. Does anyone else do this or am i just crazy, I clicked the "buy it" button just for fun, with no intention of buying it, but it does bring you to a new page where it shows the buyers information and subtotal ect. it's kind of like geting one step closer to owning a loar, this is completely ridiculous, but afterwards, i was shaking slightly. I discovered that MAS sensation pick up and it was cool. i call it a loar buzz. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif thankyouy for putting up with my silliness:p

Brian Aldridge
Jun-28-2005, 7:20am
Look at the long lines of crazing in the finish of 73994 in this pic.
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_image.pl?4527
Doesn't that look like the same thing as what is going on with the finish on 82369, which is lacquer, in this pic?
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_image.pl?4026

Darryl Wolfe
Jun-28-2005, 9:07am
Look at the long lines of crazing in the finish of 73994 in this pic.
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_image.pl?4527
Doesn't that look like the same thing as what is going on with the finish on 82369, which is lacquer, in this pic?
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_image.pl?4026
Yes, I suspect a light lacquer coat on 73994. There were many instruments that came out of the factory during the Loar period with it. It is particularly noticeable on the Loar signed mandolas and L5's. This is just a "what if" suggestion, but I think they may have been experimenting with topcoats to speed the drying process. Many Feb 18, 24 Loars have it too.

mandophil(e)
Jun-28-2005, 9:17am
So does the Loar currently at Elderly look like one of those?

Glassweb
Jun-28-2005, 11:14am
"Knowledge without experience is pure speculation." - Roberto Tacchi, master Florentine wood sculptor

" I'm just speculatin' on a hypothesis... I know I don't know nuthin'. " - Police Chief O' Doole in the film "Miller's Crossing"

"Vas ya dere Charlie?" - Marlon Brando in an interview with Larry King.

As everybody is having so much fun disecting my mandolin # 73994, I just couldn't help resist diving into the fray! This mandolin which yes, I paid a ridiculous price for a few months ago, is a spectacular example of a Loar era F5 mandolin. It has an absolutely amazing sound with huge volume, superb balance, great bass and treble strings and a complex, epic tone that is, at the same time, wet and dry, woody and bell-like. Every note frets beautifully and it has a perfectly tapered neck. For my personal style of playing it is the ultimate mandolin. Oh yes, it's absolutely beautiful and completely original. Now, regarding the finish... as far as I can determine, none of us were working at the Gibson plant in Kalamazoo in 1923. So any observations regarding any of these mandolins should be read, noted and then accepted for what they are - speculations on facts that may or may not be "true". My mandolin does have very interesting crazing on the finish - but most Loar era F5's have all sorts of wierd inconsistencies. For example, a Loar that I just purchased at Skinner last month has tuner plates with 3 and 5 screws, a white plastic binding on the headstock facing front and ivoroid binding on the body. It is a March 31st 1924 Loar mandolin - signed on the same date as most of the "Fern" Loars. Strange? Well, yes and no... cause to my way of thinking nothing at Gibson was ever perfectly consistent during its heyday. How about the beautiful Loar currently up for sale at Elderly. I've owned two other Feb. 18th Loars and they were BOTH completely different from this new one. One of mine had a Virzi - one didn't. One had a very thick neck, the other was very, very thin. They both sounded fantastic. They both had an ivoroid binding on the side headstock. The Elderly Loar has (just speculatin' on a photo here!) what appears to be a front-facing, white plastic binding on the headstock (like a March 31 Fern Loar) and an unsusual yellow-black-white binding around the body - just like the binding that was on my Dec.1st "unsigned" and other signed Loar mandolins from that date. So what are to think about this? And does it really matter in the final wash what we think? It sure would be nice to see more people discussing the tonal qualities of these instruments or the music they play on them. I don't know about everyone else, but I PLAY my Gibsons for hours a day and they are one of the greatest pleasures in my life. I feel that the Loar F5's are truly America's "Strads" and, in some ways, an even more significant development in the history of string instruments. If you 've ever played an old tater bug mandolin (c'mon... we all have!) and also played a Loar (or any good F5 for that matter) you know that what the folks at Gibson did in the 20's was literally reinvent the mandolin. Not bad for a bunch of guys working with hand tools in Michigan over 80 years ago! So yes, let's keep talking about, speculating and hashing over all the details that make these mandolins the amazing musical works of art that they are. In my mind there is no more beautiful stringed instrument than the Loar era F5s. I guess that's why we love them so much and also why the F5 has become, in a sense, "the violin"... that is to say the model of what every mandolin builer since (including Gibson) has tried to recreate. OK - I've had my say... time to get back to making music. Many thanks to Scott Tichenor for creating such an important and user friendly website for all mandolinists...

Darryl Wolfe
Jun-28-2005, 11:34am
Here is our buddy F5Loars July 9, 23..6 numbers past Glasswebs 73994. #(74000). It too has the hard topcoat

danb
Jun-28-2005, 1:08pm
Yeah, most of us can just look.. it's really two separate levels of appreciation, one is describing them, the other is feeling them. I'd say a lot of this discussion focuses on what they look like. How they can make you feel is a whole other ballgame!

I wouldn't look at this as a dissection so much as folks coming to understand in greater detail how these were put together. I had no idea that the old axiom of "all loars are varnished, all post-loars are lacquered" isn't as black & white as I previously thought!

Charlie Derrington
Jun-28-2005, 2:10pm
As we've said before.......

The July 9 (sidebound) batch was different in quite a few ways. The top-bound ones (again just as a general observation) have that standard mid-to-late '23 finish appearance while the side-bound ones have that "harder" look and slightly different crazing pattern. I don't think we should, however, make statements based on broad generalities and just agree to agree that (as Steven previously stated) the Loar period Gibson F-5s are the pinnacle of American instrument manufacturing....Strads, indeed.

Although I just can't help myself... I agree that that batch was some type of finish experiment while Loar was on tour. My early '25 is certainly more like the standard '23 finish (sans color difference). #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Charlie

Darryl Wolfe
Jun-28-2005, 2:20pm
I'm having a hard time determining whether I ruffled GLASSWEB's feathers or not. I certainly did not mean to do so. None of my "observations" or "opinions" have ever been meant in a manner that should be considered "detractive" to the instrument in question. I sometimes may fail to recognize that my comments could possibly be taken that way though. Yes, to play them is to love them. But, there is also an intense desire by some to UNDERSTAND THEM.

Glassweb
Jun-28-2005, 7:46pm
No offense taken at all Darryl! I'm experienced enough with these instruments to know that they're all over the board and that, in some ways, exceptions are very often the rule! I just thought I'd throw in one owner's perspective. And Dan, I do undertand that we're really just trying to increase our understanding of the Loar era F5 construction. I probably sounded more tweaked than I was. I appreciate everybody's perspective - true enuff!
By the way... I'm really amazed at how many undocumented F5's have surfaced in the last few years - both at Skinner auctions and through the dealers. Does anyone know how many Loars have surfaced since 2002? Kind of exciting to think of what might still be sleeping in a closet! Perhaps one more red sunburst Loar...

Charlie Derrington
Jun-28-2005, 8:33pm
Yes, Steven !! I've worked on the Red Mandolin and would love to see another one surface. It is without a doubt one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen. For some reason, however, I sort of doubt that another exists.

Charlie

Glassweb
Jun-28-2005, 9:25pm
I'm with you Charlie... that might be our "Red Violin" huh?
Good 'ole Henry Garris... what a guy! I had a chance to buy the "Flame" from that eccentric old fellow, but he kinda scared me (and maybe a few others) off! In any case, I heard that's one spectacular sounding Fern Loar.

danb
Jun-29-2005, 2:28am
Are you guys talking about the Eugene Claycomb aka 76787 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?264) aka "The red fern loar"?

Charlie Derrington
Jun-29-2005, 6:20am
That's it. It is indeed one incredible instrument.

Charlie

danb
Jun-29-2005, 7:25am
Any better pictures of it around? No offense Darryl http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Glassweb
Jun-29-2005, 7:26am
Maybe the current owner would be willing to send us some better images... that would be sweet!

Darryl Wolfe
Jun-29-2005, 7:58am
I HAVE GOOD 35MM PICS...WE REALLY NEED TO GET MY 35MM LIBRARY DIGITIZED

Charlie Derrington
Jun-29-2005, 8:01am
There is also a good picture on the front of NME's Gifts Christmas album. The owner gave us permission (when I was a member and while I had the instrument in my possession) to use it for the cover photo.

Charlie

danb
Jun-29-2005, 5:13pm
Darrryl: BRING IT TO LOARFEST. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


I'll bring my scanner with a 35mm adaptor!

mandoman15
Jun-29-2005, 8:00pm
Here's a question, do we know how many loar mandolins (signed loar f5's) were made, and as a real stretch, how many are in operation, or at least have their locations known... are there any lost loars? if this is a ridiculous question it dosen't need to be answered, i just figured Gibson must have some records of inventory ect... plus it would be neat to know. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif thanks

danb
Jun-30-2005, 1:40am
Well let's see.. current stats from the archives are
261 Loar signed instruments
214 F5 Loar mandolins
22 L5 Loar Guitars
18 H5 Loar Mandolas

14 Loars in 1922
106 Loars in 1923
134 Loars in 1924
#7 Loars that I don't have a day/month/year for (but we could guess pretty safely)

113 post-Loar F5 mandolins
#6 K5 Loar Mandocellos

Most of those are still alive & kicking (which is how we know about them). A few of the records we know only the model number as they were records of instruments from Gibson repair logs..

f5loar
Jun-30-2005, 5:17pm
One must assume that a dozen or so have been destroyed by acts of God: flood,fire,earthquakes,ect. as well as accidential loss like got run over by a damned old train.
I think there have been at least 3 water damaged Loars that were brought back to life. At least two Loars were smashed to splinters and both brought back to life.

mandoman15
Jun-30-2005, 10:50pm
so there were esentially 214 loars built or 214 we know of...?? thanks for the info though, this is truly fascinating stuff, my friends think i'm crazy...oh well:D

FrankenMouse
Jun-30-2005, 11:02pm
Let's not forget the one Loar-signed A5.

danb
Jul-01-2005, 2:38am
Yes.. the Mando-Viola is also known as a Loar, though it has no signature label..

Jonathan James
Jul-01-2005, 6:15am
Unrelated to the current discussion, other than it is about a Loar...in the current issue of NO DEPRESSION magazine, there is an article about Del McCoury. Mentions that Del recently bought that Loar for Ronnie as a gift and that it had been in undocumented and in "Mexico for the last 40 years." Also says Del bought Rob a vintage '40s banjo.

Wow, nice Dad....

Brian Aldridge
Jul-01-2005, 9:15am
thanks for bringing that up jjboone101. I looked at pictures from the Grass Valley Festival this past Father's Day weekend, specifically to see Ronnie playing the April 25th, only to see he was still playing the Gil. I had heard the Loar needed some work. Has anyone heard anything on that?

kudzugypsy
Jul-01-2005, 9:42am
whats exciting is the number of "undocumented" loars that have surfaced over the last 3 years. it seems that nearly every loar put up for sale recently has been undocumented. the ones at the recent skinner auction and i think the new elderly Feb 18th.
historically, werent the estimated figures at around 250+ signed F5's? now that we are at 214 documented ones, that figure might be about right. lets hope that the rest are surviving somewhere!

Darryl Wolfe
Jul-01-2005, 9:51am
My official F5Journal spreadsheet extrapolates numbers of instruments based on batch numbers. #This calculation is very conservative because it assumes that all "missing" instruments fall between the first and last KNOWN serial numbers for a batch. #I call this my "at least" numbers

Right now the "at least" calculation is:
386 Loar signed instruments
313 Loar mandolins

Placing a small fudge factor on these numbers to account for numbers outside of the batch and a few "one-of" instruments, it is still conservative and very reasonable to assume the "most probable" numbers are about:

395 Loar instrument
325 mandolins

Of note, with exception of the current Elderly Loar, all of these recent undocumented finds have been included in the extrapolation. #Although undocumented, they have been assumed to exist. #The Elderly Loar has a number that is "one-of". #If that number actually represents another batch, then the estimates could go up by as much as 12-16. #However I think the Elderly Loar is a stand alone serial number.

Darryl Wolfe
Jul-01-2005, 10:17am
Here is an excellent example:
July 9 1923 has 2 or 3 batches

73719 to 73733 the top bound batch. This batch has remained stable for years because all new discoveries have fallen between those numbers.

73747 to 73753. Oddities. I bought 73747 in 1984 for a client and thought it to be a "one-of" serial number. The mandolin has a one-piece back. But since then, every one of the 73748-73753 mandolins have turned up. Each has some unique thing to it, like gold harware on 3 or 4 of them. This is now a batch of undetermined size. Or, maybe it is part of the first batch with all of those numbers between and 73733 and 73747 being missing. I vote for two batches here/three overall July 9 batches.

73980 to 74002 the triple bound on sides batch. This batch has grown significantly. For years it stood at 73980 to 73992 (mine). But most of the numbers from 73993 to 74002 have surfaced with the highestes numbers being in the more recent years.

timothy.c.hicks
Jul-01-2005, 10:23am
That is really ALOT of mandolins (of that quality) to be made in such a short period of time. #People give modern factories a hard time about the numbers of mandolins being produced per year but I imagine that none of the modern companies making high quality mandolins (Gibson and Collings) to name a few are close to the total yearly output of mandos of Gibson (of old) in its prime. #Folks often forget that the loar F-5 is a factory instrument that was probably produced by an assembly line of skilled artisans - much like the modern companies listed above - not made by a single individual such as Gilchrist, Nugget, Dudenbostel, Monteleone, etc.. #Darryl do you have an estimate of the total number of mandos being made per year by gibson during the Loar period?

Darryl Wolfe
Jul-01-2005, 10:29am
Do I have an estimate, no. #But I can tell you that the number is in the thousands. #Figure the F5 to be 1 for at least every 15-20 mandolins of other styles.

mandophil(e)
Jul-01-2005, 10:41am
If Darryl is correct, and there are (or maybe) another 100 or so Loar mandolins out there, what does that do to current valuations? I realize the market will never be flooded, as new, undocumented Loars seem to pop up infrequently, but I still wonder how many more can be absorbed at the current pricing levels?

Darryl Wolfe
Jul-01-2005, 11:01am
Decent point, but I believe there is room. The market flattens and stays that price for periods of time. New find either go for the flat price or start a new rise in pricing. I believe you will see the market ob Loars flatten out for a while now at $130-150K depending on the instrument. It was only 2 years ago that Gruhn priced the mintish condition "shoplift" scratchy Loar at $65K

Darryl Wolfe
Jul-01-2005, 11:12am
Let's use serial number 70000-80000 for Loar period numbers of instruments.

10,000 total instruments

Divide by 3 for 1922, 1923, 1924= 3,333 instruments per year.

Take 300 Loar mandolins and divide by 2.5 (not fully three years of production) = 120 Loar mandos per year

120 Loar mandos vrs 3333 all instruments

That leaves 3213 for all other.

Lets assume 60% are mandolins = 1927

That (1927/120)= 1 Loar for every 16 mandolins made

Pretty decent guess above...lots of unknowns here though

Rroyd
Jul-01-2005, 12:37pm
The information that McCoury's Loar needed some repair work done is correct; I was told that there were some major separations with the fingerboard and neck and extension, with a couple of parts practically falling off at first examination, and that Steve Gilchrist is doing the repair work.

Darryl Wolfe
Jul-01-2005, 12:52pm
Good info Rroyd. Those early '23's (Feb-April)are suseptible to that. I really don't know why though.
F5Loars April '23 had it, Monroes Feb 23..and numerous others. Usually the repairs can be done virtually undetectably..a good thing.

Charlie Derrington
Jul-01-2005, 3:19pm
I think three batches for July 9 fits. I still think that the anomolies had something to do with Lloyd not being there. Who knows? But I do find it interesting that the largest (and most unusual) signature date batch occured while Loar was out on tour.

Makes one think that anything he didn't approve personally previously, got shipped in a hurry. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif But then again, nah.

Charlie

BTW.. The early Loars are prone to the fingerboard/extension hump problem because of the pearwood underlay of the fingerboard. It tends to rot and/or swell over time. When they changed the fb binding to I/B/W or W/B/W the problem goes away.

Glassweb
Jul-01-2005, 3:29pm
No Loar signatures here, but a nice grouping of Gibson Gals nonetheless... 1926 H4 - 1923 F4 - 191? H2 - 1923 A4

ronlane3
Jul-01-2005, 3:50pm
Darryl,

Thanks so much for the information. I'm glad to see that there is still hope of my running into an estate sale one of these days and finding an undocumented Loar and getting it for a steal of a price.

f5loar
Jul-01-2005, 10:55pm
You got a better chance at winning the power ball lottery.
Your best bet to find an undocumented Loar would be some unknowing finder from his granddad's attic posting it on ebay at a "Buy It Now" price of $3000 because he did his research on ebay and found newer models of the F5 are bringing $5000 to $6000 so a much older worn model should bring a lot less.

Glassweb
Jul-02-2005, 12:18am
Wood that it were... but stranger things happen on a regular basis!

Brian Aldridge
Jul-04-2005, 10:35pm
I must say what a beautiful mandolin 75554, that is no longer available at Elderly's, is. I bet the new owner is a very happy person.

kudzugypsy
Jul-05-2005, 10:27am
as far as undocumented loars surfacing, back when i was in college, one surfaced in the small town (Wilmington, NC) right under my nose. my being in college, there was nothing i could do about it. i was working part time at a mexican restaurant, and next door was an old established seafood restaurant that had been around for decades. the owners were in possession of a mint loar that they eventually sold thru mandolin brothers.
so these things can happen. i think that most of them would still be found in cities that had mandolin orchestras, i cant see someone just buying a loar back then just to play "Golden Slippers" at church picnics.

years ago before the internet, one might be able to get a deal (if they found one), but anyone can do a simple search these days and find out everything they need to know. the "good ol days" are gone.

....funny side note - Gruhn use to put wanted ads in a lot of the "senior citizen" based magazines like Readers Digest and such. his theory was that women/widows would see these and cash in on some old instrument left by the husband. i would love to hear some of those deals!

johnwilson
Jul-05-2005, 11:22am
Lloyd's contract with Gibson gave him the months of July and August to tour and play music. There are a lot of comments about batches of "odd" July instruments built during these musical vacations. So who approved the instruments, signed and dated the labels if Lloyd wasn't at the factory?

Darryl Wolfe
Jul-05-2005, 2:06pm
I've often assumed that Lloyd signed most all of the labels in advance. #This provides some sanity for why they are mostly signed on a Monday. #I suspect he signed a whole bunch of July 9 labels in adavance..accounting for the 3 batches and oddities in that group. #The September 23 instrument looks to be signed thru the f-hole...then you have December 23 instruments. #Considering there were for all purposes 2 sign dates a month for the largest part of 1923, my assumption seems to make sense. #Then you have the huge Feb and March 24 batches. followed by essentially nothing until Dec 1924. #Yes..I think he signed them in advance.

One other anomoly this supports is several custom ordered instruments delivered in 1926 with Loar signed 1924 dates..and an obvious 22 instrument with 24 appointments and 24 signed date..who knows.

Darryl Wolfe
Jul-05-2005, 2:18pm
Convince yourself that the A5, Sept 20th wasn't signed thru the f-hole and the July 9 was. #I think the other way around. Note slant to handwritting too.

johnwilson
Jul-05-2005, 2:46pm
Thanks, Darryl. That's my supposition as well, but I figured you or Charlie would KNOW. I have this vision of a cigar box full of signed labels waiting for finished instruments. Heck, some labels may still be waiting for all we know. It could also explain some of the instruments that were mysteriously unsigned. While all of these instruments are considered to be "Loars," it would certainly seem there were a good many that had a bit less of his individdual attention. Does anyone know if Lloyd personally inspected or tested the carved pieces or white instruments?

f5loar
Jul-06-2005, 11:20pm
Not one unsigned F5 has been found that the serial number would date it during the time Loar was there. Rumors and speculations yes, but none documented. A few have been found where the signed label feel out. The "unsigned" Loars were released after Loar was released since he was not there to approve them. Box of stickers already signed? Sure but if that is so it would be easy for anyone to glue one in there so why would you ship one without the label. The early advertisments make reference to the signed label as being an important part of the master models.
Also, the slant is due to Loar being a left handed person.
He wrote left handed and picked right handed. I would think the guy that moved in Lloyd's office threw away that box of presigned labels.

philja
Jul-07-2005, 3:57pm
.....fascinating ! I would be interested to know how many F5's are reckoned to have been built (if not completely finished) in the '22-'24 'Loar' period but shipped later.
I own #85370 (see p.56 of this thread)which has serial & FON nos. for '27 but is totally unlike the usual post Loar 'ferns'.
Mr. Derrington is correct in spotting that the binding on the body/fbd is white & ivoroid on the phd...confusing ??
And to give hope to the eternal optimists out there this mando surfaced in England 3 years ago.

danb
Jul-10-2005, 5:35am
I almost forgot this photo of Jul 9, 1923 F5 #73727 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?134). This one was on eBay once.. mistakently "discredited" here at the cafe (!!!), then eventually sold via Mike Kemnitzer (Nugget) and Sandy Munro of the Great Divide (http://www.greatdividemusic.com)

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/73727_front.jpg

sgarrity
Jul-11-2005, 10:54pm
What about the one that is listed on MWHQ? It says it is undocumented and must be in his personal collectiion.

evanreilly
Jul-12-2005, 9:47am
The instrument pictured on MWHQ has been posted there for quite some time; I would ask Dan B. or Darryll if it has made it into the 'Archives' at this point, and if there is any post-repair info available.

danb
Jul-12-2005, 10:25am
Yes, that one was undocumented when Charles located it, but it's since been added to the Journal. I believe the restoration was done by Randy Wood and it's being played now http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

sgarrity
Jul-12-2005, 10:56am
There are two listed. The first is the April 10, 1923 that had the water damage. That one has been listed for a long time. There is a second one listed that I hadn't noticed before. It is a December 1, 1924. Also undocumented. It looks to be in mighty fine condition.

Shaun

Darryl Wolfe
Jul-12-2005, 1:10pm
It's been documented..he posted on this thread quite a while ago

sgarrity
Jul-12-2005, 11:09pm
Cool. I figured it must have been but I just noticed it on his site today.

johnwilson
Jul-13-2005, 3:20pm
It appears the changes in the tailpiece(cover)design and engraving came before and after the Loar era with a remarkable consistency for years in between. I guess the same could be said for truss rod covers and paper labels. When did these items give way to different engraving styles and materials?

danb
Jul-13-2005, 4:46pm
The first TP cover design looked a bit like a pineapple. It got simplified in 1911 or so to the stamped one that is most familar. The Loars had fancier hand-engraved ones. All that time, everything else (non style 5) had the stamped ones. The stamping changed to just "GIBSON" in squiggly lines by around the 50s.. a few variants, then a lot of recent ones that seek to look like the old ones again...

johnwilson
Jul-13-2005, 5:21pm
Thanks, Dan. The engraving was obviously done in greater relief than the stamped covers. Are both covers the same gauge metal?

danb
Jul-13-2005, 5:46pm
Hmm. I'm pretty sure the Loar ones are silver plated, but otherwise the same deal. I think it was Charlie (Charlie, are you listening?) who suggested to me they were coated in something similar to clear nail polish over the silverplate (to keep it from tarnishing). The very old ones have deeper stamping. For a while I liked to think the stamp itself wore out, but of course there must have been many different ones over time.

I've got a pretty old one (3264), and the stamping is very deep.

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/3_point_tailpiece_coer.jpg

Here's one from a '22 snakehead that's also quite well defined..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/72707_tp_cover.jpg

This one is Jack's 76547 Loar, shows the intact "varnish" over the plating on the left, worn on the right where a forearm might have leaned on it:

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/76547_tailpiece_inside.jpg

fredfrank
Jul-13-2005, 6:18pm
Not to hi-jack this thread, but the picture immediately above this post makes a dandy screen wallpaper!

danb
Jul-14-2005, 3:38pm
I've got a bigger one if you want it.. send me a PM and I can send in 1024x768.. 1280x1024.. etc http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

danb
Jul-31-2005, 7:38am
March 31, 1924 H5 # 76498 at Elderly (http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/90U-4322.htm)

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/76498_front.jpg

danb
Jul-31-2005, 7:38am
Back:

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/76498_back_detail.jpg

f5loar
Aug-01-2005, 9:45pm
Only $100,000 (pickguard extra). Few cracks here and there but hey it's signed. Should move pretty fast at this low,low below market price. Nice example of the best of the
best in mandolas. No Virzi too!

Brian Aldridge
Aug-01-2005, 10:44pm
was the virzi removed or originally w/o a virzi?

danb
Aug-02-2005, 4:48am
Change that to 7649X.. the last digit is very hard to read (was probably over-written). Originally without virzi, I initially mis-read it as being one we already had a record for.

mandoman15
Aug-04-2005, 9:18pm
on post a pic of your A style, you can see the one and only loar A-5 are there any better pics of this amazing mandolin??

danb
Aug-05-2005, 5:49pm
here you go (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?51)

mandoman15
Aug-06-2005, 6:42pm
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/74003_a5.jpg
all i can say is wow, how much money would someone have to steal to buy that one...:D

f5loar
Aug-08-2005, 2:37pm
It's been rumored that 3 F5 signed Loars would not take home this one of one. At least that's a starting price!

bluesmandolinman
Aug-08-2005, 2:59pm
does the current owner play this unique A ?
or is it just owned or "collected" ?

are there recordings where this mandolin is played http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

just curious about the sound....

is the sound very different from the F5´s ?

oh boy one photo and so many questions coming up

cheers,René

Spruce
Aug-08-2005, 3:27pm
"does the current owner play this unique A ?
or is it just owned or "collected" ?"

It gets played...

"are there recordings where this mandolin is played ?"

Tut Taylor plays it on Hartford's Aeroplane and Aeroplane outtakes. #I also have a live recording of this band and I think the A5 is on board...
Sounds like it anyway...

Also, there's a tune with the A5 on Grisman and Rice's Tone Poems if I remember correctly...

"just curious about the sound...."

It's one of the nicest sounding mandolins I've ever played...

"is the sound very different from the F5´s ?"

It's a similar sound....

Darryl Wolfe
Sep-30-2005, 11:07am
Loar 72055, Feb 8 1923 available at the Skinner auction

Darryl Wolfe
Sep-30-2005, 11:08am
Fern? 89720 actually an F-pot, available at the Skinner auction

Darryl Wolfe
Sep-30-2005, 11:11am
89720 is somewhat peculiar. #If it is fully original as-is, then it's another "holdover" based on the mid 30's peghead. #Fern inlay normally continued for several thousand more serial numbers. #It could also be refurbished or repaired in the past. #It looks original though based on the nuances of the finish.

Note, there is a batch of 897xx Ferns though

Darryl Wolfe
Sep-30-2005, 11:21am
Here's a picture form the first "Unofficial LoarFest" #This was taken at the first Guitar Show in Nashville. #I believe in 1987.

Anyone care to identify some people???

Darryl Wolfe
Sep-30-2005, 11:26am
I had a pretty awesome booth of mandolins for sale and/or display

f5loar
Oct-01-2005, 12:35am
Ah yes the beginings of a LoarFest. Those were the days.
Standing LtoR: Darryl, F5Loar(me),Gary Burnette,Bob Isenhour and some guy from Gibson I think. Kneeling is Jim Triggs and Henry Garris. If I knew then what I know now I would have bought every one of them that day.
89720 is an odd/ball. I think it was renecked in the mid 30's like late '36 or early '37 before the block at 1st came out. It has the exact same wide open little peghead curl which is rather odd looking in itself. The peghead matches my '42 in that regards. Also flowerpot like a late 30's and Gibson is the smaller script style like on my '35 and not the fatter style used in late 30's and 40's. If redone by the factory and no doubt it was how would tell from the original Fern neck? A '29 sent back for neck repair is normal. Still had that lifetime repair warrenty.
Could be an Apollon F5 as he was always changing out fretboards as if he had a stash of them. I suspect the way Apollon played he went through the frets and back then you didn't replace each fret like today you put on a new fingerboard. I suspect this neck mystery will hinder the price on this one. The Loar should bring top dollar.

f5loar
Oct-01-2005, 12:38am
Also just noticed the tuner shafts are sticking out way too far to be original.