Loar Picture of the Day

[Darryl Wolfe]

The other label (pic highly tweeked to bring out the number)

[Darryl Wolfe]

The other label (original pic)

[jmpullen]

Re: Scotti Adams inquiry of writing between bridge and tailpiece, on Monroe's # 73987 -
I was told it was B M + b M -- Bill Monroe #+ Bess Mauldin. Isn't this right, those who know for sure ?

[Scotti Adams]

..Hi Jim...Charlie D. informed me that it said "Bill Monroe"....I didnt quite get that from what I could see in the pic...in looks more like initials as you suggested... http://mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Darryl Wolfe]

I think Jim is correct..or shall I say he is correct

[Scotti Adams]

..yep..its alot clearer in that pic...thanks alot Darryl...I wonder why Charlie said it said "Bill Monroe"...I know..so many mandolins...so little time...huh Charlie?.. http://mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[delsbrother]

Awwww.... That's cute! http://mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Charlie Derrington]

Yup and yup.

[Scotti Adams]

Hey Darryl and Charlie..look at the tuner placement on this Loar...arent they more far apart than "normal"?...or is this just another inconsistancy in the Loar Mando product? its seems awfully wide across the top from the D tuner to the A tuner...not quite angled in as it should be ....

[Darryl Wolfe]

That's the way the early ones were with the exception of the first one. June 22. #Refer to earlier pictures in this thread for some discussion on it. #Essentially the standard Loar placement was new and they didn't have tuners yet that could be installed that way. #Then they found out that the inlay positioning didn't work with the new tuners and changed that

[Scotti Adams]

,,thanks Darryl...you da man

[evanreilly]

How common was the use of this style tailpiece on the '5' models?
Were there a lot of Loars with only double-bound (white-black) binding on the fingerboards?? Anyone post a picture of April '23 f'board binding??

[Spruce]

Re: #73987, the "B M + b M" Loar...

Sure looks another mis-matched top, no?

[Darryl Wolfe]

How right you are Spruce..you 'da eagle eye

Evan, I have always assumed that covers like that are replacements for the original hand engraved ones. #I've never seen one of those silver plated. #The double bound fingerboards are common to the earlier (pre June '23) Loars..some actually have a layer of ebony under the fingerboard and binding. #A few of the '24's (the ones with snow white f/b binding) and some of the post Loar ferns also have double bound fingerboards. #I'll post some pics

[Darryl Wolfe]

PS Evan..that tailpiece cover was made well before the Loar period...or way after ..as covers from about 1918 to 1928 were all nickle-silver...not chrome/nickle plated brass. The tailpiece base was plated brass

(sorry CD...I don't agree with your assessment of tailpiece materials)

[Charlie Derrington]

Don't be sorry.....

This world would be a dull place if we all agreed on everything.

Charlie

[Darryl Wolfe]

93723..about 1931. #Obviously not a Loar,
but a nice example of how different the later
mandolins soon became. #Sprayed sunburst,
lacquer finish, block inlay a third fret
modified fern inlay. Note the slightly elongated
scroll. pinched waist and very slightly wider body.
Not as finely graduated, with higher arch on top and back.
Pickguards in this period disintegrate worse than any others.
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/93723/93723_1.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

93723..worm on top (non-reverse) tuners
larger bushings, broader binding, appealing but
less graceful broader appearing peghead shape.
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/93723/93723_2.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

93723..back. #Distinct ridge in back, evidence of high arching
can be seen in the glare at upper right.
Elongated scroll very noticeable on back.
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/93723/93723_3.jpg

[kneauxdn]

Many Loars!

[Darryl Wolfe]

H5 Mandola 76492 March 31, 1924

http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/76492/76492_1.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

76492
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/76492/76492_2.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

'37/38 F5 94970
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/94970/94970_1.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

94970
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/94970/94970_2.jpg

[evanreilly]

I noted that the 'distressed' Master Model Gibson had a tailpiece similar to the one I posted above. That model is supposed to represent a 'generic' 1923 F-5. How many of those tailpieces have you seen on original (i.e. - not factory refinished) Loar-era intruments?

[Darryl Wolfe]

None...they all have the hand engraved silver plated version
like this

[f5loar]

That 93723 Fern is reported to be known as the last prewar Fern F5 made by Gibson if you go by the serial number. A small batch of 5 that year that started in 1934 and shipped in 1936.
If you go by FON it is the next to the last yet the other
one has "The Gibson" in it. Strange but true. This would
be the start of the removal of "The". No doubt only a few
maybe even one craftsman was left that knew how to build the
F5 under the direction of Loar. The next F5 known to exsist is the Apollon shown above which means the Gibson logo went to the fatter prewar size with a larger flowerpot than a Loar. Amazing the difference in one year. It bears a C-1 FON with a batch number different from "Hoss" which probably means they were down to only one or two F5s per year as the Monroe Bros. were starting to become famous with their hit "What Would You Give....." It is therefore assumed Dave Apollon was to recieve the first one of the new style F5. He is shown in many promotional photos and
record covers holding this F5 and it remained with him longer than other year F5s except the Loar which he kept the longest. I guess old Dave knew which mandolin was the
best back then too! In the words of the great Walter K. Bauer "Those Gibson F5s went to hell, those darn crappy tuners wouldn't last a year before they fell apart. They was mighty heavy too. It wouldn't stay in tune either" It should be noted Bauer a former Gibsonite with Loar was now playing his own signature model Bacon mandolin.

[Charlie Derrington]

Darryl is right. All F-4 style tailpieces on Loars appear to be replacements. That's one reason I put one on the prototype distressed Master. They all won't have the same hardware as I'm trying to make each one different.

Charlie

[mandoJeremy]

I am wondering if the original '37 to '42 period F-5's had the wide neck like the Sam Bush signature model does? Can anyone tell me?

[danb]

Yikes, I had a real forehead-slapper of a bug on the mandolin archive search programs.. Many instruments weren't showing up in the results. Here's the Archive's curent incarnation of the F5 journal:

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/list_mandolins.pl?f5journal

I'm expecting to get to quite a bit more of it this week (instruments that post-date Loar have not yet been entered&#33http://mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif. You ain't seen nothing yet folks http://mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Ken Waltham]

In regards to the neck width on the '37 to 42 F5's... I owned a 1937 F5 that I found out of the woodwork right here at home. No, it did not have an overly wide neck.
Not as refined as the earlier models, of course, but nothing out of the ordinary.

[Darryl Wolfe]

And they made electrics too, but not Loars
95358 F5

[Darryl Wolfe]

95358

[Darryl Wolfe]

EA5248 H5 Mandola

[Darryl Wolfe]

EA5248

[Darryl Wolfe]

My newly acquired original Loar Master Model brochure
The Holy Grail of "paper stuff"

[Darryl Wolfe]

More

[Darryl Wolfe]

more

[Darryl Wolfe]

more

[Darryl Wolfe]

last one

[Darryl Wolfe]

Come to think of it..maybe I should have bought a "real hoss" of a Pacific Rim solid wood A-model instead..hmmm

[Jonathan James]

Darryl,

Do you know what the Loar on auction at Skinner went for on 10/19? You had predicted over $55K, I believe. Fern F5 No. 86104

[chris]

Nice Darryl. I knew I should have bid more. Oh well. Thanx for sharing

[Darryl Wolfe]

JJB....I believe it went for about ..$62.5k including fees..something on the order of 53-55k without

[Darryl Wolfe]

Chris, I'm surprised so many people figured out what it really was (based on the cheesy partial picture he posted) There were 22 bids, with many willing to pay well over $200 for it

[Spruce]

Cool paper Darryl...

I notice the Loar labels in your newly aquired brochere look a bit different that the ones in the F5 Journal...

True?

Did they change midstream? Are the ones in the Journal pretty accurate?

Just curious...(g).

[Darryl Wolfe]

The ones in the Journal are exact..the ones on the brochure are renderings

[chris]

Darryl, Give it your best shot

[Darryl Wolfe]

Tough one...looks like about 897xx to 90xxx, but usually the block at first came later. #Green case is not typical of the period either. #Can't tell whether the tuners are reverse or not which would change everything.

So, it's either a later fern as I indicated, or a Loar that was sent back for peghead repair and fingerboard

[chris]

Hmmm

[Darryl Wolfe]

1929 to 1933 tuners, reddish thicker finish consistent with the serial numbers I indicated

[chris]

873XX

[Darryl Wolfe]

Not fully consistent with 873xx mandolins, but there are exceptions in every Gibson woodpile..another "well something happened here Gibson instrument"..most have dot inlay...rarely ever do you see the "modified fern/straight The Gibson" before '29 or '32 serial numbers. #Should have Loar specs in the graduations/neck ect with later hardware and finish for this to "exist"

[chris]

Notice the Fern is not obstructed.

[Darryl Wolfe]

I saw that...much like the skinner one, but modified fern

[chris]

I like it, a pretty rare combo. peghead

[Charlie Derrington]

Look at the tuner splay. That part looks really early.

Charlie

[Darryl Wolfe]

CD..Agree...but I have seen that on early '30's too though

[Charlie Derrington]

Yeah, me too. But they don't have that "early" Loar hit.

This one looks strangely Loarish.

Charlie

[Darryl Wolfe]

Fully Agree....part of my reason for suspecting..Loar graduations and neck......dgw

[chris]

front

[chris]

front

[Charlie Derrington]

71060 came in today. (First time I've seen it since I brokered it in '87) Real neat early Loar with that cool light tobacco/orange color. Great sounding, also. Has a slab/non-bookmatched back and, what looks to be, a late '24 or later, fingerboard with white/black/white binding.

Charlie

[Darryl Wolfe]

Chris from your photo, it appears to be an early Loar body, based on the height of the ridge on the scroll. The fingerboard is definately from the mid 60's. The finish is either thirties or '60's, I can't quite tell..but I'm thinking 60's

[Charlie Derrington]

Looks 60s to me. Might be a prime candidate for restoration (if it can be purchased for the right price)

Charlie

[Darryl Wolfe]

CD..I can't recall whether I've seen that or not..I believe my info came over the phone..I've got reversed label noted and a RM for the owner

[chris]

The yellows in the finish are so vibrant. I think it's the earlier? But The top and back don't have as much yellow in the center of the burst???????????????????

[Charlie Derrington]

Chris, the red is the key. Thirties are more brown to yellow. Of course, looking at a picture and making a determination is dubious at best.

Charlie

[Charlie Derrington]

Darryl, your info is correct and it originally came from me.

Charlie

[Darryl Wolfe]

A mind is a terrible thing..yes I beleive that mando Chris is posting deserves a redo..(if its a '60's finish)

[chris]

And who would you suggest?

[Charlie Derrington]

Call me.

Charlie

[Darryl Wolfe]

Maybe this will help you
decide Chris
OK, OK, it's not a Loar...but it may as well be.
An exceptionally nice brand new Master Model
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/mm/mm_1.JPG

[Darryl Wolfe]

Master Model, 2003 - one-piece back
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/mm/mm_2.JPG

[Darryl Wolfe]

Master Model - Here we go...revised "Gibson"
..looks better Charlie
OK, which Flowerpot is intellectual property?
not this one I hope..since it's 25% different..Ha Ha


http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/mm/mm_3.JPG # http://mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Darryl Wolfe]

Master Model 2003
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/mm/mm_4.JPG

[chris]

But Darryl, I have one of them already. Should be abut 2 numbers away from his.

[chris]

Look like twins?

[mrmando]

That electric H5 was made for Apollon ... I've never seen the blonde electric F5 (95358) before. Also for Apollon?

Darryl That has to be Jim Pullen's Master in those photo's . I hear it is one of the best ever made..

Chris does your's have a Fern? Show us that headstock! I remember seing it or one of yours up there when it was being french polished

[Scotti Adams]

..that would be Jims Master Model..he sent me the same exact pics.....its a fine, fine looking instrument and from what I hear a great sounding thing too...Jim told me hes about to sell out his entire stock of other mandos because he says the MM is "the" one....Jim has a good collection of other fine mandolins.

[chris]

Yep, I got the Fern in the peghead. I will have to get a pic.of it. This thing sounds unbelievable. I also had them put in the new vintage size frets, I just love them.

[jmpullen]

THANKS VERY MUCH GUYS, FOR THE COMPLIMENTS ON MY NEW MASTER MODEL. NOT BECAUSE IT'S MINE, BUT IT IS ONE TRULY EXCEPTIONAL EXAMPLE OF AN F-5. AND I'M VERY PROUD TO HAVE IT. DANNY AND CHARLIE DID ME RIGHT ON THIS ONE. THANKS TO THEM AND ALL THE FOLKS AT THE GIBSON PLANT IN NASHVILLE.
P.S. ACCORDING TO THE DISTRESSED MASTER I SAW AT GIBSON, I THINK THE BEST IS YET TO COME OUT OF NASHVILLE. JIM.

[GTison]

hello F5journal
does the 03 MM have the flat place in the scroll?

[Darryl Wolfe]

Actually it slightly does...in very similar fashion to the post Loar ferns...hadn't noticed that

[GTison]

my 02 fern has that flat spot too.

[Darryl Wolfe]

I noticed it on an 02 Fern too (the first one I ever saw), but hadn't paid attention to the MM's. #The 02 Ferns and a few MM's have another little anomoly on the back where the heel button is...the scroll binding joins at a lower point/place than the "point" binding does. #They seem to have revised that since then

[f5loar]

That 873XX Fern looks more 50's finish to me. Too dark
to be a 60's in those photos. Has that right 50's burst too. Fingerboard could be 50's too!
Another salesman sample? Sent back several times?
or another Apollon that's been redone many times over the
years. The case may not be original to the mandolin so you can't always go by that. I know ole Dave was bad about swapping cases on his F5s. Is this one suppose to be for sale?

[chris]

Darryl, I don't know if I am going to sell it or not. Sure is a nice mando. But then again 79833 Looks nice too http://mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Darryl Wolfe]

Chris, I'm f5journl

[chris]

I knew that, Had a senior moment. O.K. so maybe It was just too much of the 70s http://mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Darryl Wolfe]

73670 The Ronnie Reno "Unsigned Loar"
1923 Serial number, but gold 1925/6 hardware,
1925 lacquer finish, scroll shaped like a 1925

[Darryl Wolfe]

73670

[Darryl Wolfe]

73670

[Darryl Wolfe]

75709 February 18, 1924
My second Loar. This mandolin
has very striking lines, sort of like
Cindy Crawford does

[Darryl Wolfe]

75709, It's a shame that it has
that mismatched peghead binding
that appeared for a while during
Feb and March of '24

[Darryl Wolfe]

75709

[Jim Hilburn]

Looks like one of the few that they didn't over-file the binding inside the scroll.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Agree Jim, here's the back, kinda peculiar.
It had more curl than shows here, but at a
large angle. See some other pics on mandolinarchive.com

[Darryl Wolfe]

75848 March 31, 1924
odd light color w/ridiculously
wild curl

[Darryl Wolfe]

75848

[Darryl Wolfe]

76779 March 31, 1924
Fern Loar Owned by Benny Cain
Picture circa 1967
The fingerboard inlay may be original

[Darryl Wolfe]

A part of Benny's collection
in 1967. Two Loars, a mint F2,
an Orville 3 point bound in alternating
blocks of ebony? and pearl? and an original D-45.
(the pickguard is "stick-on")

[mandoryan]

What's up with that pickguard on the Fern Loar? That's pretty ugly if you ask me. Other than that, it's a beautiful mando. Looks like it is/was in darn close to new condition. Quite a collection!!!! Wish I had something like that. http://mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Also, Darryl, is 75848 Frank Wakefield's Loar? The color looks like his. I wasn't sure what his serial was on his. Thanks in advance.

[Darryl Wolfe]

The pickguard is something he made. 75848 is in VA, Wakefield's is 72051, Feb 8 '23
dgw http://mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Darryl Wolfe]

76549 Fern Loar March 31, 1924
The mint perfect one posted earlier
in thread. Pretty cool pic eh!

[Darryl Wolfe]

72615 March 27, 1923 The Griffith Loar
at Tut Taylor's house in 1965

[Darryl Wolfe]

72615 in 1968 when Tut loaned it to
me for a year. The mando had an early
'30's finish on the top and neck
and original finish on sides and back

[Darryl Wolfe]

72615 Original back finish

[Darryl Wolfe]

72615 during my Knoxville Grass days. #Shortly
after I bought it in 1976. #Randy Wood refinished
the entire mandolin after Norman Blake
spilled coffee on it (color is darker and not so
red as pics indicate)
(my first reproduction pickguard and tailpiece cover)

[Darryl Wolfe]

72615 circa 1976

[Darryl Wolfe]

72615 in 1923. Pretty decent documentation
one this one don't you think

[mandoryan]

Man, I am lusting for that Fern in the mirror. Mirror, mirror on the wall..... I wish, I wish........:)

[Darryl Wolfe]

more of 76549 Fern Loar
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/76549_front.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

79824 Fern Loar March 31, 1924
This mandolin has an odd serial/date
combination in that the serial number falls
in a batch of instruments well after the
signature date. That batch has only this one
fern, all the others are flowerpots

[Darryl Wolfe]

79824 Note the white binding on body and
fingerboard, but the ivoroid Fern binding typical
of the March Fern Loars. Also note that the tuners and bushings appear gold on any Loar that has been played
very much. The silver plating simply wears away quickly
revealing the brass

[Darryl Wolfe]

79824 Back

[bluesmandolinman]

Please explain

Why does the 72615 had to be refinished just because spilling coffee on it ? Is the temperatur of a coffee destroying the finish ? http://mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Please forgive me if this is a stupid question.
Thanks,René

[Darryl Wolfe]

I wasn't present when it happened, but that's my take on it. I do know that you can heat lacquer to remove it. (but you're really scr_wed if you catch it on fire..which it will do spontaneously)

[Darryl Wolfe]

73481 May 29, 1923 David McLaughlin, Johnson Mt Boys
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/73481/73481_7.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

73481
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/73481/73481_1.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

73481
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/73481/73481_2.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

73481
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/73481/73481_4.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

73481
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/73481/73481_5.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

73481
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/73481/73481_6.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

73481
http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/73481/73481_3.jpg

[mandoryan]

Man that 73481 is a purty one too. Has it been refinished or is it just in really, really good shape?

[danb]

Here's the Mandolinarchive record for #73481 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?112)

[Darryl Wolfe]

It appears that he has cleaned the binding and had it french polished since I saw it last. These are brand new pics of it

[Geno]

Darryl, Have you ever considered putting out a coffee table style book featuring the best of these photographs on high quality paper, perhaps even expanding it to include some other fine mandolins. #Do you think there is enough of a market for such a project? I know I would love getting one in my Christmas stocking next year!

[Darryl Wolfe]

Yes, I've considered it. I plan on upgrading the journal somewhat to include more of this.....and at least a few custom hardbound copies will be done. Maybe some day I can turn it over to someone to do it right

[Darryl Wolfe]

It appears that he has cleaned the binding and had it french polished since I saw it last. #These are brand new pics of it
Regarding the finish of 73481...David played the mandolin for many years with The Johnson Mt Boys. #Although the mando was not abused, the finish went downhill significantly from the near mint status that it had. #Perspiration..general handling and such soften and dull Loar finishes and make them even more susceptable to wear. #The last time I saw the mando the finish had gotton somewhat soft and gummy with some wear spots. #It appears to me from these new pics that he has had it french polished and touched up a bit. #I have done this to my Loar several times over the years.[/QUOTE]

[David W McLaughlin]

Darryl, Thanks for posting the shots of my old F-5 on the cafe. In the F5Journal you may want to remove the line about the finish being soft. What I discovered about that softness is that the mandolin had some kind of extremely thin film on it, like a wax or something. It was not an overspray or French polish. It must have been some kind of old wax or polish. I could scrape it off with my fingernails, especially when the weather was damp. The finish would turn cloudy when the air was damp. For years I left it alone because I thought it must be a part of the original finish and I did not want to mess with the mandolin, but several years ago I got brave and wiped the mandolin down with a damp rag. The thin film of yellow goo came right off down to shiny hard finish. This original finish coat is still very glossy since it was protected all those years. The binding and pearl still have the original varnish coat. It is amazing how the mandolin has survived so well all the years of endless miles. I went to great efforts to protect it out on the road and when flying. Now, since my Paganoni is such a great mandolin, I am much more selective about how I use and where I take the Loar. Most of the time it stays with other Loar papers and memorabilia, locked in a climate controlled environment under constant video surveillance in a building with quite an advanced security system. The mandolin still has its very loud, dark, juicy tone, very different from any other Loar I've played. I have played over fifty Loars and have never heard one quite as dark-chocolate as mine. I play it a little bit every day. It is all original except for the first eleven frets. The case is original. I keep the original handle off of the case.
# #My most recent recording projects with Loar #73481 are on Cracker Barrel's Heritage Music Collection. The first is The Stony Point Quartet's "Band of Angels". The second is Linda Lay's "Linda's Mercantile Store. The third is "Springfield Exit" which I produced and engineered, and the forth and most recent release is The Stony Point Quartet's "Christmas Time Back Home", which I co-produced and engineered. On the last two CDs, Loar #73481 is left totally natural, i.e.. no EQ or compression. I have never recorded with the Pag, but I plan to soon.
# #Thanks,
David

[David W McLaughlin]

The original hard varnish has not been covered or french polished..at least since I have owned it. The gloss of the finish is original. The amount of significant wear is very evident up close in person, but the photos do not show its imperfections, the wear and all of the little dings. The finish is very thin in areas on the back from years of being placed against my suit jacket, plus there is arm wear on the front above the tailpiece, and a little bit of strap wear on the ridge of the scroll. One thing that there is not any of...pick marks! The finish is almost completely worn off the back of the neck. I'll take some more extreme closeups soon to show the wear and imperfections.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Thank you David. #I believe that explains things quite well. #I think it's been a good 10-12 years since I have seen the mandolin. #It certainly look good now. #I planned on removing that journal comment after seing these pics. #I believe it is reasonable to say that the mando is a bit lighter in color than the pics indicate. #Here's a pic from 1982 with yours out front comparing how amazingly similar they (my 73992) look

[Darryl Wolfe]

and another shot from some festival we played togther

[David W McLaughlin]

Over the years that I took 73481 out on the road, the finish got darker, duller, and softer. I also started seeing small areas where the soft stuff had worn through to a very shiny finish. That is why I figured I should go on and remove that coating. I did this in about 1999. I'm certain it was the right thing to do. I also have photos of the mandolin that I took right before I removed the soft goo. I will dig those up soon for you. I believe that being out in the sunlight and weather darkened the soft coating over time. In 1982, 73481 had not been out in the light and weather very much so the soft coating had not darkened. When I removed the goo, the mandolin looked more like it did in the early eighties, but with a little more wear. The mandolin is still in structurally perfect shape, and has never had any repairs other than the time the fingerboard popped clean off. I glued it back on myself. It has always held up perfectly and never had any problems.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Speaking of May 29, 1923 Loars,
Here is 73490 with it's
previous long time owner Harry West.
This was Harry's favorite. #I believe
it has a new owner and the peghead
has been repaired

[Darryl Wolfe]

73490

[Darryl Wolfe]

73490

[handpicked]

Is that a chiquita banana sticker on the tailpiece cover of 73490?

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here is John Paganoni in his shop
with July 9, 1923, 73719
The mandolin was owned by
Albert Bellson and appears
in many catalog photos. This
is the first July 9 mando I have listed
and is the first one to have the open
pattern "The Gibson". This mandolin also
marks the general change from fiddle flamed
quarter sawn backs to slab cut irregular curl.

[Darryl Wolfe]

chiquita?? yes, one of Harry's trademarks

[Darryl Wolfe]

Now here's one to "pine" for
John's 73719, along side of his
84270 Fern that was previously
owned by Jimmy Gaudreau. Yes that's
one of Paganoni's famous cases

[Darryl Wolfe]

The one and only Doyle Lawson
with Paganoni's 73719. Doyle played
Johns mando for many years

[Darryl Wolfe]

73719

[Darryl Wolfe]

73719

[Darryl Wolfe]

73719

[Darryl Wolfe]

73676 June 13, 1923
The William Place Jr. mandolin
that is pictured in almost
every catalog. Original
gold hardware

[Darryl Wolfe]

73676

[Darryl Wolfe]

75690 Feb. 18, 1924
Mike Marshalls mandolin
Virzi removed, top regraduated,
new tone bars, new fingerboard.
Approximate first appearance of
black stain on a Loar. #Generally
speaking, Loars were very dark from
this point on.

[Darryl Wolfe]

75690

[Darryl Wolfe]

Gene Johnson with his 75305,
Feb. 18, 1924 during the J.D. Crowe era.
That's Keith Whitley next to him w/ the Herringbone
that Lester gave him. I think I took this pic in Knoxville around 1978

[Darryl Wolfe]

Gene a bit later in Georgia
w/ 75305. He occasionally will
play the Loar at his Diamond Rio gigs

[Darryl Wolfe]

75305
Bone or ivory saddle and unique armrest

[Darryl Wolfe]

Charlie Derrington and his
74660 Dec. 11, '23 loar.
I believe this was his
first Loar and he was very proud of it

[Darryl Wolfe]

74660. Although you can't see it in this pic,
Loars around this period have a slight greenish
hue to them because of the slight touch of black on top of the yellow

[Darryl Wolfe]

74660

[Darryl Wolfe]

74660

[Darryl Wolfe]

74659 Dec. 11, 1923
The picture of the back captures the
green hue mentioned on Charlie's

[Darryl Wolfe]

74659

[Darryl Wolfe]

Charlie D. and his 81250 "unsigned" Loar

[Darryl Wolfe]

81250..pretty cool wine color in it

[Darryl Wolfe]

81250

[Darryl Wolfe]

81250

[Scotti Adams]

..Hey Darryl..wheres that Flatt Bone of Whitleys at now?....Ive heard different stories....

[Darryl Wolfe]

Scottie..I have no clue..what do you know..under Lorrie's bed?

[levin4now]

I could say this for every one I've seen on this thread, but 81250 is beautiful.

[Scotti Adams]

..I heard it was recently stolen out of Sandy Hook,,,I cant varify that....Also..Keith gave Lester $1500 for that ol Bone

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here are some better pics of the Loar 10-string mando-viola #70321

[Darryl Wolfe]

70321

[Darryl Wolfe]

70321

[Darryl Wolfe]

70321

[Darryl Wolfe]

The real Sam Bush Model #95155

[Darryl Wolfe]

95155

[Darryl Wolfe]

95155

[Darryl Wolfe]

95155

[Darryl Wolfe]

The original Dawg mandolin
'25 Fern #81408. Photo
circa late '70's

[Darryl Wolfe]

81408

[Darryl Wolfe]

81408

[Darryl Wolfe]

81408

[f5loar]

I believe these photos are of the "2nd version" Dawg Fern.
The original version would have had the block at third
fingerboard. Isn't the dot one the famous Apollon fingerboard he replaced the blocked one with or was the blocked one the Apollon? I forget which one but the earliest photos back during the Muleskinner days in '73 is
the block inlay.

[Fretbear]

Darryl, how do you account for the large difference (385) between two Loars dated the same day, such as Marshall's 75690 and Gene Johnson's 75305? I realize that they could have wound up on the signing table the same day, without sharing much else in common, but with only about 150 surviving examples, it still seems like a lot. How many Loars were thought to have been signed in total? Thanks for making all your work and amazing pictures available on the Cafe.

[Darryl Wolfe]

81408 is supposedly the original Appollon fern of Grismans. #The fingerboard has been replaced several times. #When I took these pics, he said it used to have blocks. #The one on it in the photo came from Appollon as a spare. (besides that, I'm really referring to it being the one present during the invention of his Dawg music in the mid/late seventies...i.e the Kaliedoscope Quintet album w/Rice, Angor, Marshall)

Fretbear. #There were two large distinct batches of Loars that got signed on Feb 18, 1924. #The first batch went from about 75305 to 75329 with only the last two or three having Virzis. #The next batch went from 7567x to 75709 or further and invariably had a Virzi. #This for all practical purposes was the real production run of Loars for the general public. The first batch is very consistent, usually sound great and have a lighter finish. #The second batch is darker in color and somewhat inconsistent in trim and they usually beg to have the Virzi removed. (Note the work done to Marshalls second batch mando and No work done to Rieschman or Gene J's. first batch mandos ...and I have removed three Virzis from second batch ones) Most of the mandos prior to these have some artists name associated with them..such as Griffith, Place Appolon ect.

[AlanN]

Just to be nit-pickey, Darryl. Marshall was not in the original Quintet: David, Todd Phillips, Rice, Anger, bass either Joe Carrol or Bill Amatneek (on the F-5 record).

[Darryl Wolfe]

You are so right...I knew something wasn't exactly right there...It was Todd Phillips I was forgetting..and I think it was Amatneek

A mind is a terible thing

I think when I saw them first, Marshall was with them (when those pics were all taken)

[Chris Baird]

F5journl,
I'm sure you've already heard this a thousand times but I just want to thank you for this thread and for your work in general. You do a great service to the mandolin community. These pics are priceless for someone who sees a loar once in a blue moon.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Thanks Chris. by the way the "maps" are correct/very close according to what I have

[Don Grieser]

How does that 10 string sound? Nobody seems to be able to make the 10 strings really sound great across all the strings. Did Lloyd solve that problem on this one?

[Darryl Wolfe]

The strings were loose when I saw it and I didn't know exactly how to tune it. I just tuned it up until it felt and responded correctly. It had two courses of unwound and three of wound strings..so the most treble string never made it to E. Tuned that way (several steps under a mandolin) it sounded fully Loaresque to me..with rich tone and even responsiveness. Im sure it would have sounded better after settling in for a day or two.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here are some new pics of 86104, The Skinner Fern from a few months ago

[Darryl Wolfe]

more

[Darryl Wolfe]

more

[Darryl Wolfe]

last

[mandoJeremy]

Now that is mint condition. It looks like a brand new Gibson fern. I am in awe!

[Darryl Wolfe]

I know that my buddy that owns it will like to hear that...but by the same token..I told him that it was the most stunning/captivating mando that I have seen in years

[ethanopia]

incredible condition. It looked good in the catalog but not that good!
WOWzers! I'm sure it sounds good too...

[mandoJeremy]

I still can't get over that thing! Everytime I look I .....well, I get excited. How is the sound Darryl? I am sure it has not even come close to opening if it is in that kind of condition. I played a certain Loar with Fern in Asheville that I am sure you know who owns and it is not overly impressive because it stays in the case never getting played with no tension. He told me that Sam had made him an offer on it a few years back and he turned it down. I wish it would be in someone's hands like Sam's that would actually play it and enjoy it. Oh well, if I had all the money I needed I guess I would just buy Loars to look at!

[Darryl Wolfe]

I haven't played the Skinner fern, but he says it sound real good. The Fern Loar in Asheville doesn't get played..and then again He's not really a mando player. The Virzi hampers that particular mando some, and it's been heavily french polished. It sounds fine, but basically very typical of the '24 Virzi mandos

[evanreilly]

Here is a picture of Bill Monroe playing Dave Apollon's 1923 F-5. This was at the Thomas Point BLuegrass festival in Maine, probably 1993.

[Darryl Wolfe]

The silver plated, hand engraved
tailpiece cover as found only
on Style 5 instruments

[AlanN]

Gorgeous, and a great photo

[Darryl Wolfe]

We're gonna start some parts, pieces pics so that www.mandolinarchive.com can have a reference base on
more than just the mandos themselves. Virzi pics,
labels ect ect..various pickguards, tuners...
pics of mandolins when taken apart..

[AlanN]

hmmm...rings close to home...

[Darryl Wolfe]

The nickel/silver stamped version
found on all other mandolins.
Many Lloyd Loar Style 5 instruments
have this tailpiece cover either thru
factory error, or loss/replacement.
I suspect that the hand engraved
version became unavailable from the
factory after a few years

[Darryl Wolfe]

One of the first ads to appear
heralding the New F5..
Crescendo, 1923

[AlanN]

I got a color repro of that from Tommy a few years ago. It's framed on a wall, looks great.

[Darryl Wolfe]

The distinctive, hard to forge/reproduce
handwriting of Lloyd Loar

[Darryl Wolfe]

But sometimes his fountain pen
didn't work so well

[Darryl Wolfe]

The distinctive silver plated tuners
found only on Loars

[Darryl Wolfe]

..and their penchant for loosing the
silver plating and getting quite
"cruddy looking"

[Darryl Wolfe]

The Master Model label
used on Style 5 instruments
until about 1926 or 27

[Darryl Wolfe]

The Loar signature label
used on Style 5 instruments
from 1922 until late 1924

[Darryl Wolfe]

The Guarantee label. Used on everthing except the Style 5
and then used on the Style 5 instruments starting about 1927

[Darryl Wolfe]

The infamous Virzi Tone Producer.
This one is no longer "producing tone"
Generally used only in 1924.
Note how the darned thing couldn't really vibrate
if it had to.

[Darryl Wolfe]

The Virzi label
located just outside the Loar
signature label on the treble bout

[Darryl Wolfe]

An original Gibson coupon.
These were used like car payment coupons to
pay Gibson dealers for the instrument

[Darryl Wolfe]

Gibson pickguards and bridges all had
a "patent stamp" on them until around 1930.
These are my "exactly right" case hardened
stamps that I use on my repro parts.
The large one is for the bridge, medium for
pickguards. The small one is my "F5 Journal" stamp
so that I don't accidentally buy one
back as an original....brag brag

[Charlie Derrington]

It's interesting to note that some of the later Loars (and most of the unsigned, early '25 batch) had the medium stamp on the bridge base as well.

Charlie

[Darryl Wolfe]

You got me http://mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I didn't know that.
What do you think of this Charlie

[Charlie Derrington]

Looks great !!

[Jason West]

Darryl,

I had the chance to play 73490 (Harry West's old Loar) in August. It still had the broken/bound peghead. The new owner graciously let me spend some time with it. It was my first Loar experience...I took me a few minutes to acclimitize to it, but then...An exceptional instrument...now I get the whole Loar thing...I'm ruined for life...

Jason West

[BobLeeSwagger]

I took me a few minutes to acclimitize to it, but then...An exceptional instrument...
Hi Jason,

What exactly did you have to do to get comfortable with the instrument? Is it just a playability issue coming from 70+ year old instrument?

[AlanN]

dgw,

Did all original Loar tailpiece covers have that etched squiggle around the perimeter?

[Darryl Wolfe]

To my knowlege yes. I've never seen one without it..but have seen plenty of F4 types on them

[mandoryan]

Did you make that tailpiece Darryl? Looks great! Very classy.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Let's say I'm the project manager on the tailpiece

[mandoryan]

Very cool Darryl. You da man when it comes to repro Loar accessories. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Darryl Wolfe]

Virzi label as installed under the treble f-hole

[Darryl Wolfe]

The very typical point crack found on most Loars. #This is what Charlie D mentioned that they duplicate on the "Distressed Loar". #Also note the white/black/ivoroid binding found on later '24 models

[Darryl Wolfe]

Both labels...I never said that the Loar signature couldn't be duplicated, but it does take a good fountain pen

[chris]

Darryl, Of the virzis you have removed, Have you found that the feet of the virzis were cut different? As to allow for different tone bar or side to side virzi placement? Chris

[Darryl Wolfe]

Not really, just a little notch at the end of the feet so that the feet can rest against the side of the tone bars. That part usually comes out clean, but the feet usually leave a bit of wood on the top just inside the tone bars on both sides. There is also a little pin into the third foot that was used to locate it and it usually ends up staying in the top.
DON'T READ FURTHER IF YOU ARE FAINT OF HEART

I remove the Virzi with a standard black coat hanger. You put a tight radius 180 degree bend one the end with about a 1/2" inch leg and 1/8" gap. You file the inside radius of the gap as sharp as possible. The rest is fairly obvious..going in the end pin hole..you hook it around the disc and split the grain in about 3 or 4 places. The old spruce splits very easy and usually detaches from the legs....fish these out the f-hole. The legs come off by the same method and usually come out in one piece. A bent screw driver is some times need to push the leg back after you pull on it...like rocking it until it detaches from the little pin. Most will glue back together almost invisibly..such as the one in the picture

[chris]

Can you describe the results as far as Tone and volume. and how did they compare to non virzi Loars? # #Chris

[Darryl Wolfe]

Same result with all three that I have done. Much more volume, more focused sound..not a lot of tonal change..and an easier feel to the strings.

One of them really sounded sick before the surgery. It had a queer hollow humming overtone inside, like the sound was there but couldn't get out (almost like the Virzi was loose and humming) It sounded fine afterwards

No difference noticed between ones that never had a Virzi

[Spruce]

"I never said that the Loar signature couldn't be duplicated, but it does take a good fountain pen "

And a '20's caligraphic attitude...(g).

Are the labels in the F5 Journal life-size?

[Darryl Wolfe]

"I never said that the Loar signature couldn't be duplicated, but it does take a good fountain pen "

And a '20's caligraphic attitude...(g).

Are the labels in the F5 Journal life-size?
They're a bit small, the orig's are 3-3/8" long measured at the ends of the ellipse line

[chris]

One of them really sounded sick before the surgery. It had a queer hollow humming overtone inside, like the sound was there but couldn't get out (almost like the Virzi was loose and humming) It sounded fine afterwards

Dr.Darryl I can't stop laughing on that one http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif Kinda like this guy nothing comming out

[Darryl Wolfe]

I think it was 79836 Dec 1, 24. The mando was slightly thinner than normal as if the Virzi had been retrofitted at the factory. And seriously the sound acted like it was bouncing around inside and not finding the f-holes...staying in the mando too long and just humming.. Almost exactly like you had taped up the f-holes

[chris]

I notice on some of the point protectors I have seen, They are cut out of square on both ends. So when they put the binding on, They would have to notch the binding on one side. Have you seen this Darryl.
Chris

[chris]

point The other side of the point the binding meets the protector perfect.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Yep, that's the way they were done...makes it real easy to bust the binding if you hit the point protector on something

[Darryl Wolfe]

Chris,
could that be this mandolin..I need some better pics
76792 Sept. 22, 1924 Fern Loar

[Darryl Wolfe]

76792

[Darryl Wolfe]

76792

[chris]

Yup, I sent you a few, to the journal adress. Check to see if you got them.

[Darryl Wolfe]

I'm doing that now..actually I haven't checked it in several weeks because of virus' It's on December 4 with 700 new messages..only two more weeks worth to go

[chris]

What were all the Loar Nuts made of?

[Darryl Wolfe]

pearl

[Darryl Wolfe]

76792