Instrument opening up?

[kupp]

What does opening up mean?? Does the mando get louder when it opens up or does the tone change? Does it happen gradually or can it happen right away???

[Stephen Perry]

Usually for me the volume starts jumping back and forth, sudden bursts of louder sound. More focus and clarity, too. Really evident on violins. Guitars have come in more slowly for me. Some mandolins really jump quite suddenly to being better sounding and louder, many just creep into focus.

So it can happen either way. But a brick is unlikely to open up.

[250sc]

My first mando developed real warm low frequencies as it opened up. When I removed all the strings (replaced the bridge) it took a couple days to open up again.

[kupp]

How long on average does it take???

[Chip Booth]

Kupp I can see the difference is some mandos in days or even minutes, some take years I am told. I have a Weber Yellowstone (new X braced) that is a bit plunky when you first start to play it and after about 20 minutes it gets louder and fuller and nicely responsive. I have a '99 Gibson (tone bar) that doesnt change much as you play it but has become more 'open' over the course of the six months I have had it. I think it wasn't played much before I got it. So who knows, it's gonna vary a lot by individual mando, and probably by bracing type.

[J. Mark Lane]

My first mando developed real warm low frequencies as it opened up. When I removed all the strings (replaced the bridge) it took a couple days to open up again.
Interesting. When I remove the strings on mine, the volume drops considerably.

[Chip Booth]

J. this happens to me too, I lose all the low end for a few days then as the strings settle in or die or whatever the tone comes back to life. I learned the lesson early to never change strings close to a gig.

[Daniel Nestlerode]

What does opening up mean?? Does the mando get louder when it opens up or does the tone change? Does it happen gradually or can it happen right away???
1) "Opening up" is more or less when all the parts of a stringed instrument begin to work together to produce tone. I like to think of it as the point at which an instrument stops being a bunch of pieces of glued together wood and starts being (and acting like) a single unit.

2) Umm, not to be obtuse, but yes. As has been mentioned these things depend on wood species, bracing/tonebars, top thickness, recurve depth, etc. etc.

3) Again, yes. Sometimes it can just be there when yesterday it wasn't. Sometimes you hear it coming for years. It depends on the above factors and probably the climate in which you live and the way you treat the instrument.

Best,
Daniel

[kupp]

The reason I asked is Sunday when I was playing with my group my mandolin got really loud all of a sudden and I don't think I was doing anything different. My wife thinks I am crazy. But my father in law look over at me suprised... So I am almost positive something happened... Maybe a moment of clarity.

[fatt-dad]

Do you guys ever just think it's the player getting acustom to the instrument. You know, at first it feels new in your hands and in the days/weeks to come, you become more familiar with it and with the new confidence play it to it's full potential?

Just wondering (having never bought a new mandolin before, maybe I'll never know).

f-d

This info may help some of you open up a new instrument.Did you ever buy a new gas grill that came with a rotissary ? Who uses that device anyway ? I do.I made it into a strumming device which would strum a mando 60 to 70 times a minnute.When your not playing ,you can set this up so your instrument will play for as long as you want.I made an A frame out of wood and mounted the motor on it.Then I took the meat holding part and welded 4 prongs on it.I then attched a piece of 1/4 in square stock to each prong with a THIN fender guitar pick to each end.Position the device over your mando and be sure the pick is just high enough to strum the strings.Turn it on and let it go.You can simulate playing for 24-7 in no time.In a couple of days worth you will notice quite a difference in volume and tone.Try it.This must be what people do when you start getting old.
John

[rwandre5]

Great post, very creative. Wish I could see a picture. It slices, dices, and opens your mandolin! What a riot!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Bluegrass Boy]

So how do you know when its done? How to avoid overcooking? Low heat I assume? No basting? Just wondering.

[fatt-dad]

Welcome John Harrick! But that sounds nuts to me. Don't you run the risk of having the full potential realized only when you are playing (strumming) ala rotissary time? I would think if (big if) there is anything to this phenomena, having the instrument open up to the music you enjoy would be the ticket. (At the risk of quoting another thread, doesn't just the sanding of the completed mandolin and rubbing the layers contribute to the opening up of the mandolin?)

f-d

Ron,I will try to post a picture soon,if I see a bunch of interest in it.The real riot is the results.This is a real good device, if you are dealing with tone bar braces.I have done an x braced mando also with excellent results.Then again,you know how long it takes for tone bars to light up.Your tone bars will love you.
John

Hi Fatt-Dad,I am very happy to meet some of you.I have been on the site for a while now but never posted anything.I hope some future posts will not make me sound like such a nut case.I am also looking forward to all the help that you guys might give me.
John

[Eric F.]

John Harrick, you're my hero! Seriously, that is just fabulous.

A couple of years ago there was a lengthy discussion of opening up and how the process might be hurried. One fellow bought a vibrator and rigged up a stand so that the vibrator rested on the bridge and he just let it run all day. Not sure if the mando opened up, but I hear it was very happy.

Another person sent his mandolin (a Collings, I think) off to some place that put it on a big vibrating table to "sonically enhance" it. There was a fairly recent discussion of a place called Timbre Tech that does something similar with high intensity sound. I believe you can find the article that appeared in Acoustic Guitar magazine by googling it.

A well-respected luthier told me to expect to hear changes in the mandolin at six days, six months and six years. After that, changes would come slower, he said. That was from playing, of course, not vibrating!

[fatt-dad]

And then there was the guy in the submarine who had a bunker or something next to the reactor and he could just place his mandolin in there and the humming of the vessel did the trick.

Oh and John Harrick, there's nothing wrong with the nut case perspective - ha.

f-d

[mandodebbie]

Hmmmm.... just a thought. Is a mando really like a girl? I'm one of those gals who used to be pathetically shy. Then one day while working at the ice cream parlour I told that bossy Diane off and... well, you get the picture. I guess good things do come with age. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[duuuude]

Aaahhhh, so you "opened up", well at least ya didn't have to stand in front of the speakers or strap a vibrator to yerself! (don't go there, LOL)
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[neal]

I hope some future posts will not make me sound like such a nut case.I am also looking forward to all the help that you guys might give me.
John
Too late, John. #You and Tom Edison, I'm imagining a bunch of old electric motors littering your workshop while you chuckle like Peter Lorry and rub your hands....

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[mrt10x]

The nice thing about living here in California is that I just leave my Mandon on the floor in its case and the constant tectonic movement takes care of it for me http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif # On the serious side I know lots of accoutic guitar players who place their new guitars on stands in front of their speakers during the day while they are at work. #The guitar will vibrate constantly if you use enough volume. #It works try it. #Not sure if the music you choose could make a difference, would Black Sabbath played in front of your new Weber forever curse it?

[Slim Pickins]

In rte: Opening up. For what it's worth. My sister is a concert pianist, also plays the violin (not fiddle) She had not played the violin for almost year just concentrating on her Grand Piano. She left the violin on top of the piano uncased. 4 hours a day constant piano playing and drills. When she di finally pick up her violin she was amazed how the tone improved and changed her mind on selling it. am sure the vibration/music opened up and mellowed that violin/fiddle

[J. Mark Lane]

You guys are all completely nuts.

[El Rey del Mando]

Mark,It seems to me that you left yourself out of the nut catagory.You mean to tell me that in one way or another your not nuts about the mandolin? Come on now,Admit it....Yea,Man!
El Rey

[J. Mark Lane]

OK, you got me. I'm completely nuts, too. (But I think all this stuff about leaving instruments on pianos or in front of speakers and so forth is just plain silly.)

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Mark

[El Rey del Mando]

Don't kid yourself Mark.There is some big guys in the business that dont think it's so silly.Just check out Roger Siminoffs site.Go to FAQS and click on breaking in a mandolin.Check out his machine and see what he has to say about it.It will surprise you, big time.

El Rey

[Chip Booth]

Quote: Do you guys ever just think it's the player getting acustom to the instrument.

fatt-dad, I am certain this isn't the case. Just this evening I was playing my new mando with my little group and about 30 minutes into it the thing just came to life. I hadn't done anything different, it just got louder and started to sound full and more resonant. This particluar mando opens up like that every time I play it while my other one does not change noticably over the course of a night, though I believe it has changed during the time I have had it. It's all very interesting and I wish I could find a way to make the new mando 'stay open'. Maybe just more playing will do it. Well, better go play then http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[elExtranjero]

This is an interesting article about accelerated aging of acoustic instruments. I've quoted a couple of paragraphs. You can read the whole post at:

http://www.acousticguitar.com/Gear/advice/vibration.shtml

"Finally, Jackson Browne’s comment on the shaking of his new Gibson Roy Smeck was short and to the point: "Wow!" He elaborated that the guitar now sounds much more like his vintage Smecks. Even the old ones sound different from one another, but now the new one sounds as if it has been played in. Browne now wants to try the shaking treatment on a little-played 1935 Smeck."
"Timbre Tech’s patented process involves clamping the guitar to a shaker table, a kind of super–heavy-duty loudspeaker with a 7,500-watt amplifier and a three-inch magnesium plate instead of a speaker cone, and vibrating the whole thing at much higher forces than ordinary playing would produce. The process takes about 45 minutes and is carefully monitored by acceleration sensors attached to several points on the guitar. The strength of the vibration is intense, much greater than that produced by playing the guitar, and so the theory goes that 45 minutes on the table is equivalent to several years of normal playing."

[fatt-dad]

Welcome to the Cafe "the strange Earth Foreigner"!

f-d

[elExtranjero]

Welcome to the Cafe "the strange Earth Foreigner"!

f-d
Thanks for the welcome FD http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif On the topic of 'awakening' an instrument, I"m going to try it! I just bought a new Kentucky A model. I'm not sure of the exact model, it was 200 at my local luthier shop. We're getting my son a Takamine acoustic bass and my daughter a NICE fiddle for Christmas. I'm going to set them all three up in my music room and blast music at them for a few weeks during the day while we're all gone and see what happens http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I'm thinking classical; Vivaldi, Rachmaninoff, etc. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[jasona]

I've been working a lot on getting my right hand technique improved after seeing Compton and Long a few weeks ago. This has improved my tone, speed, and volume. It seems that now my mandolin has taken a huge jump in its own volume and responsiveness in the past few days--I can play lighter and get more volume than before. By playing better, the mandolin is getting better to my ear. Very nice! And since its a tone bar instrument, I can hope for a few more years of this before it hits its prime, which is pretty hard to believe.

There is definitely something to this "opening up" phenomenon for sure.

[EDIT: has, not hasn't]

[fiddle5]

I haven't noticed it as much with mandolin, but I've had a few fiddles that opened for me. A new violin was played an hour a day, for 4 or 5 months. All of a sudden, within a weeks time, it doubled in volume. I now keep all my instruments in the same room. The speakers and piano thing works as far as I'm concerned, just some instruments more than others.

A luthier one time explained it like this: if you hold two fresh cut peices of wood together, they appear like they are solidly touching each other, but if you look under a microscope, only the ridges and peaks are touching from one peice to the other and there is less surface to surface contact. When these same two peices of wood have had the chance to vibrate together and wear down all the peaks and ridges, there will be a greater surface to surface contact. This added surface contact will therefore resonate together and emit more of the sound energy rather than insulating portions of it.

This works from what i've seen, but can only comment on my own instruments.

mike