View Full Version : one piece backs
sunburst
Nov-19-2004, 9:41am
Just got a new digital camera. I'm learning to use it by shooting pictures and thought I'd show ya'll this piece of wood I recently "scored".
It's quarter sawn and almost 3 inches thick. I'll be able to re-saw three one piece quarter sawn mandolin backs out of it.
Darryl Wolfe
Nov-19-2004, 9:42am
All I can say is WOW. What a find
Flowerpot
Nov-19-2004, 9:57am
Man, is that nice. Be sure to get some pics of the mandos is progress from that one!
Jim Rowland
Nov-19-2004, 1:34pm
Beautiful stuff,Sunburst. If you are real careful,you can get four backs out of it.
Jim
Spruce
Nov-19-2004, 1:58pm
Bigleaf??
sunburst
Nov-19-2004, 2:25pm
Bigleaf??
Probably, maybe red, but no worm tracks.
sunburst
Nov-19-2004, 2:30pm
Beautiful stuff,Sunburst. If you are real careful,you can get four backs out of it.
I'll have to think about that!
I'd rather have three backs for sure than loose any trying for four http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif .
(The other side isn't as flat as this one, it was chain sawed out. I just cleaned it up with a block plane to see the figure on this side and get a good surface to register against when re-sawing.)
Spruce
Nov-19-2004, 3:34pm
I'm pretty sure it's Bigleaf, with the defined grainlines and distinctive red-heart...
The piece illustrates why it's so difficult to get one-piece mandolin backs cut on the quarter in domestic maple. #The red-heart is usually not used in instrument backs (in this case, the color difference is negligable and not that big of a problem), and often one only has 8" of white wood, even if the tree is 5' in diameter...
In European maple. this is not an issue as the trees very rarely display red-heart...
I'd rather have three backs for sure than loose any trying for four
I don't know what others experience with this has been, but I wouldn't try to cut it too close to final dimensions when resawing. Since you say this is quartered, I'm sure it will be stable, but I have resawed plain-sawn stock and had it cup pretty dramatically due to internal stresses that were "equalized" in the slab.
Obviously Spruce Bruce could share a more expert opinion, but my experience with cabinet woods would cause me to agree with John's concern. That is one fine looking chunk-o-lumber!
Paul Doubek
John Bertotti
Nov-19-2004, 4:37pm
Is the red heart simply not used because of the coloration? If so why not make some red tinted backs. Looks good to me. John
sunburst
Nov-19-2004, 5:03pm
Yeah, the red heart is not considered desirable because of the color. The wood is just as good otherwise.
I have used similar colored wood before and know that a sunburst will hide the color difference completely.
Paul, It's probably pretty stable. I'm not worried about wood movement as much as...well, if you do the math with a 1/16 in. saw kurf and some extra for surfacing, there isn't much room for error with four pieces.
I'll probably just start sawing at one side and see what's left after 3 cuts.
PaulD
Nov-19-2004, 11:47pm
Worst case scenario; you get 3 carved backs and one flat out of it... and then if you don't build flat mandos, you just send it to me! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
pd
Spruce
Nov-20-2004, 9:18am
"I have resawed plain-sawn stock and had it cup pretty dramatically due to internal stresses that were "equalized" in the slab. "
Cupping problems can be solved by using the same forces that created the cupping in the first place.
Wet the concave side and place wet side down on a wet towel, and the piece will invariable flatten out in a few hours...
Then, after it flattens out, lean the piece against a wall or hang it in the air so that both faces received equal air circulation. #
It will usually remain flat...
Cupping in wood can even occur in very old wood. #I'm working with some beautiful 1-piece Red Maple F5 backs cut on the slab back in the 70's right now that had cupped when they were laid flat on a table...
The above remedy solved the problem nicely...
"Is the red heart simply not used because of the coloration?"
Red-heart in Bigleaf can be very acceptable such as Sunburst's piece, but it can also be very wine colored and react to sudden temperature changes (like kilning or a hot car trunk) very differently than the white-wood, thus causing checking along the demarcation line. #It's for this reason that I don't like to send it out for use in instruments...
It's amazing how many times Mother Nature seems to discourage cello and archtop guitar makers from using Bigleaf, with the red-heart kicking in at about 8" or so of white-wood, when the typical cello or archtop needs 9" or so of white-wood. #
It looks like Sunburst's wood is another example of this phenomenon...
In Red Maple, the ugly olive-colored center of the logs is the primary reason why 99.9% of all Red Maple logs are milled on the slab, with the sawyer milling till they hit the heartwood, then rotating the log to mill to the redheart again, etc. etc.
The result is a big giant pile of slab-sawn lumber, and no quartered material whatsover.
That is why quartered maple East of the Mississippi is quite rare...
PhilGE
Nov-20-2004, 9:50am
Hey Bruce. I was wondering if the "cupping" effect might actually be put to use somehow for induced arches or pre-carved backs/tops. I don't know enough about wood and thought I'd ask if this made any sense.
-Phil
Spruce
Nov-20-2004, 10:26am
I've thought about that concept as well....
I dunno...
I just figure that the way the tree grew is the way it wants to be presented in a back, so I try to flatten the piece out before carving...
The wood wants to be flat, as demonstrated by the wet-towel method. #It's amazing how it will come back to flat in just a few hours on the towel, and stay that way as long as the two faces receive the same amount of air circulation...
That is, don't lay the piece on a table or leave a piece uncovered on the top of a stack of wood. #Sticker a reject guitar top on the pile so that the one-piece back thinks it's in the center of the pile, and it will dry flat...
Folks freak when their beautiful one-piece backs cup, but it's a fairly easy thing to remedy by using the force, Luke...
Weighting the wood down is unnecessary...
Greenmando
Nov-20-2004, 5:01pm
Where is the rest of that tree? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
Bruce, I'll never build a mandolin or any other instrument, but I love to read it when you start talking about wood.
Rob Grant
Nov-21-2004, 4:07am
So what does the "sapwood" look like on the N. American maples? Or is the sapwood the "whiter" timber on the right of the photo?
On the woods I mill and use here (mostly southern hemisphere rainforest hardwoods) I generally avoid the sapwood because of possible problems with stability and insect attack (more starch in sap).
sunburst
Nov-21-2004, 5:45am
The sapwood is the desirable part of North American maples.
That piece in the picture has only had the bark trimmed off on the right side of the photo, and as Spruce says, it has nearly 8" of "white" wood. That piece has been cut for many years. I got it from a former employer who was selling a bunch of wood so he wouldn't have to inventory it. He's been where he is for 18 years or so, and that wood has probably been there that long, and he might have brought it with him from his former shop. If it was more freshly cut it might be whiter, but, maybe not.
Some of the maples, like sugar maple, can be nearly white in the sapwood portion.
There are woods here, also, that have sapwood that is to be avoided for a lot of purposes, (poor stability, poor strength, etc.) but maple is good all the way to the bark.
Spruce
Nov-21-2004, 12:06pm
Here's a story about how it can be very deceptive to judge how much white wood is in a maple tree based on the size of the tree...
I was passing through Iowa City on the way back from a Red Spruce trip, and checked into the Sunset Motel...(Anyone live in Iowa City?? #It it still there?)
Outside the office was a fresh Silver maple stump with some of the most psycadelic bubbly figure I have ever seen in a maple...just stunning.
I checked into my room, and lo and behold, there was the tree itself in all it's glory in the parking lot. #Five feet in diameter!
How am I gonna get this home?
However, upon closer inspection, the five-foot-diameter maple had all of 4 inches of white wood, with the rest of the massive tree that olive-colored heartwood that is so incredibly ugly under varnish...
Bummer...
It was probably for the best anyway, because it was 100 degrees outside and I could only work for 15 minutes before having to take a shower and watch an inning of the Cubs game to cool down. #
I could never get used to that kind of humidity.... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif
Anyway, I wound up "skinning" the tree for those beautiful 4 inches of white wood (a very easy task), and it wound up in some very nice copies of a Maggini viola, the original having that same exact bubbly slab-cut figure...
"SM" Log, for "Sunset Motel" for those keeping score...
So-ooo, never judge the amount of white wood in a standing maple by the size of the tree. #
It's easy to get very fooled....
sunburst
Nov-21-2004, 12:59pm
One of the charasteristics used to identify tree species is the number of rings of sapwood.
A given species will have...say...11 to 14 anual rings of sapwood. That doesn't change with the size of the tree, but because of that, the width of the sapwood changes with how fast the tree grew for the last 11 to 14 years. Faster growth, wider sapwood, - slower growth, narrower sapwood.
As trees get older they commonly grow slower, so bigger trees are likely to have less sapwood than smaller trees.
I just counted the rings of white wood in the piece in the picture. 72.
Bruce, do you know if that's consistent with bigleaf?
Bruce,
Thanks for the advice on flattening cupped wood... I'll try that. After my experience I decided it was better just to get lumber that had been dried close to the finished dimensions I need and surface both sides equally. I've never had a problem when approaching it that way, but I'll try the wet towel next time the situation warrants.
I would expect John's wood to be stable anyway just due to the grain orientation.
Paul Doubek
Spruce
Nov-21-2004, 3:19pm
"Bruce, do you know if that's consistent with bigleaf? "
Well, I don't know about the grain count, but the 8" of white-wood is certainly consistant and common...
Why couldn't Mother Nature give us another inch or two??
(I'm talking about sapwood here, folks...) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Keith Newell
Nov-21-2004, 3:53pm
Here is my stash, next 5 mandos worth.
Keith Newell
Stephen Perry
Nov-21-2004, 6:47pm
Do mandolin makers ever use slab wood? I rather like using it in violins.
Steve Perry
sunburst
Nov-21-2004, 7:45pm
Do mandolin makers ever use slab wood? I rather like using it in violins.
Lots of mandolin makers use slab cut wood for backs, but I prefer quartered.
Spruce
Nov-22-2004, 9:06am
"Do mandolin makers ever use slab wood?"
A high percentage of the Loars are slab-cut...
Quilted Bigleaf is invariably cut on the slab...
Birdseye maple is slab cut...
So, "yes"...
oldwave maker
Nov-22-2004, 11:43am
Bought this piece from John Rounds wife after he passed on, he bought it from spruce in back '92
oldwave maker
Nov-22-2004, 11:45am
Scored this slabsawn stuff last week for $4.50 bd/ft, 8' boards, some 14" wide, ready for the 2011AD litter!
Spruce
Nov-22-2004, 7:04pm
Wow!
Is that hard maple?? Just reeks of "Loar"....
Good to see "PA" log again.
That log is in a lot of nice mandolins as well as in my cabinets....
(The pieces with knots, that is...)
oldwave maker
Nov-26-2004, 5:43pm
I think that was hard stuff- any way to tell for sure?
would that PA log have been milled in 91?
here are 2 quartered and a slab back(on right) fresh from the old standard 'weird reject' pile, my kinda pile!
sunburst
Jul-15-2005, 2:21pm
Man, is that nice. Be sure to get some pics of the mandos is progress from that one!
I was searching for something else and came across this old thread.
As it turns out, the last two people who came out to the shop to order mandolins both wanted one piece backs, for one reason or another.
Here's the "F", mostly carved. There are still some "tooth plane" marks in the surface, yet even with that rough texture, the curl shows up just fine.
sunburst
Jul-15-2005, 2:23pm
Here's the "A". Not quite so far along. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
sunburst
Jul-15-2005, 2:27pm
I re-sawed the piece into three backs. Took no chances trying to squeeze four out of it.
Since then I got this European one-piece. I also got some European spruce to go with it.
(Pay no attention to the price written on the wood, I got a deal http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )
PaulD
Jul-18-2005, 10:13am
I'd like to see that Euro mando when it's done... I really like how tight the figure is. (That is figure I'm seeing and not bandsaw chatter, right?) That's going to be a great looking one-piece.
Chris Burt
Jul-18-2005, 12:51pm
John, What do you use as a resaw? I've been thinking of getting a bandsaw and dedicate it to resawing. I've a bunch of one-piece tops and backs I need to cut and my three-wheel Inca won't handle it.
Chris
Chris... might I suggest this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=24322;hl=bandsaw) as a place to start? There was a lot of good information regarding bandsaws for resawing... and a picture of John's bandsaw which is bigger than most of us would have space for!
Paul Doubek
sunburst
Jul-18-2005, 1:16pm
Paul, yes, that's the figure. The piece has been milled (wide jointer, I guess), so there aren't any saw marks left.
I don't know when I'll make a mando with it, I just couldn't turn it down at the offered price, so It'll be here when the time comes.
Chris, that's the saw I use in the picture in the thread that Paul linked to. You'll not likely find one like that, but there are plenty of good alternatives.
In my 2 car garage/shop I would have to get rid of my table saw and lumber storage to make room for a bandsaw like that! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
sunburst
May-12-2006, 10:07pm
Well, yes, it has been almost a year since I started this one. Guess I need to quit doing so many repairs...
anyway, here's the back sanded out ready to stain.
sunburst
May-12-2006, 10:09pm
...and here it is stained, sealed, and ready for finish.
Antlurz
May-12-2006, 11:49pm
Trippindicular, to say the least. Beautiful, Sir!
I'm guessing it will blind you when finished!
...and the subtle lines in that scroll and points are worth an Emmy.
Ron
Stephanie Reiser
May-13-2006, 12:13am
Very impressive piece of wood, John.
And even more impressive example of work.
I am always in awe of your output, Sir.