Grisman or Bush?

[chirorehab]

I originally thought that Grisman played mando on BB on the manzanita album... someone told me that it was actually Bush...

I just got the Tony Rice Bluegrass Guitar Collection cd (which I highly recommend!). Tony says that Grisman played mando & Bush played violin...

Since I only have a copy of the Manzanita album I don't know what that says...

Does anybody know who plays mando on this song?

Thanks,

Eric

[Fuzzyway]

Eric,

On the Manzanita CD credits it lists Sam Bush for both mando and violin for Blackberry Blossom.

fuzzy

[chirorehab]

hmm, so maybe Tony's memory is a little fuzzy!

Eric

[JimRichter]

The only thing, if I remember correctly, that Grisman played mando on was Nine Pound Hammer. I do know that all the fiddle tunes were Sam on both fiddle and mandolin.


Jim

[Scotti Adams]

Dawg played mando on 'Blossom

[JimRichter]

Scotti, are you bashing me?!? Seems like you're getting in the habit of bashing everybody, including that poor defensely Chris Thile.

You know, it always sounded to me like Grisman did the Blackberry Blossom solo (just due to the phrasing and heavy touch he has with a pick), but I swore I read somewhere that Sam played the solo. So it goes.

Jim

[alanstewartra]

On Manzanita,Grisman plays mando on Blackberry Blossom,Nine pound hammer and Stoney point.

[Scotti Adams]

nope Jim..not bashing...just stating a fact..sorry if you took it that way....and to the best of my knowledge I havent bashed anyone else...not even poor ol defenseless Thile... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif On the bootleg tape Ive got of the Manzanita band live...Sammy does indeed play mando and Skaggs plays the fiddle...Dawg was no where to be found..

[Flowerpot]

I've got Manzanita right in front of me, and the liner notes say Bush plays mando and fiddle on Blackberry Blossom. The only credited song for Grisman is Nine Pound Hammer. The mando break on BB sure sounds like Sam to me.

My question is: who does the "yelp" thing during Tony's break? It sounds like Ricky, but according to the notes, he ain't on that cut. Though I always thought the fiddle break sounded more like Ricky than Sam.

[Scotti Adams]

...hmmm..could there possibly be 2 different recordings of this floating around?....I'd bet my first born that Gris is playing 'Blossom....cuz there aint no "yelp" in my record and Gris' and Sammy's styles are so different that they are easily detectable.

[kudzugypsy]

it sounds like some folks may have some alt. version of this song. although i have never seen another studio cut from this session anywhere

the ORIGINAL Manzanita LP (Rounder 0092) version clearly states Grisman as the mando player on BB......even if it didnt there is NO WAY you could confuse Grisman with Bush on this cut.....that break is Dawgish as can be.
Bush would have flat tore into that one.

[Fretbear]

I will step out on a big limb here; I think the Manzanita session(s) are hands down one of the finest recordings in the history of acoustic music. I have also always felt that if there was anything amiss at all on that record, it was the presence of Grisman and his few solos. While technically correct as his playing always is, it is also IMHO the only source of any "self-conscious" notes on the recording. It seems funny that anybody would mistake the Blackberry Blossom solo as Sam Bush's. Skagg's fiddle playing is absolutely outrageous, and with Sam & Ricky on board, I have always felt that Grisman's contribution on mandolin was more a required courtousy due to Tony's past membership in the DGQ and the California location of the sessions. Sorry Dawg fans, flame away....

[chirorehab]

Well, I don't know about the "required courtesy". According to the Bluegrass Guitar Collection Liner notes,

"If memory serves correctly, this tune was not scheduled as part of the initial concept. The bulk of our working day being complete, we decided to party. Grisman showed up, we started jamming, and he said, "Hey man...let's cut this!" And we did." - Tony Rice..

I always thought the break sounded like Dawg...

Which leads me to another question.... Listening to this great disc with so many great mandolinists, begs my inexpericened ears to ask....How would you describe different professionals tone(& style)? (Grisman,Bush,Reishman,Lawson,etc)

Maybe I should start a new topic?

Eric

[kudzugypsy]

fretbear, i have always thought that also. still, as you say, possibly the pentacle of new acoustic bluegrass. its my observation that the bluegrass-background players on MZ (Tony, Sam, Ricky, Flux) really pushed the beat, and that Grisman played slightly behind the beat (a jazz habit). plus his phrasing is so different. this made his work on some cuts seem to break the momentium. the 9lb Hammer is the perfect example...but, then again, it provided a fresh (new at the time) sound on the project. you know it could possibly be the name recognition of dawg at the time ('77) that had a big part of it. putting him on the album was sure to boost its circulation. I'm in no way implying that is the only reason he is on there, or that his playing is not up to par, but who was Ricky, Sam, and Flux in 1977http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif certainly not many in CA had exposure to them.

[Fretbear]

Kudzu, that's it exactly. I had not been able to put my finger on it before. It was a timing thing; not in any way wrong, but somewhere inappropriate to the spirit of the project... J.D. Crowe's "drive" influence was all over that recording and that is amazing considering there is not a banjo note to be heard....

[Scotti Adams]

..couldnt agree with you more Fretbear.

[JimRichter]

I think the discrepancies in liner notes probably has to do w/ the rerelease on CD. The CD liner notes credit Dawg w/ only the 9lb Hammer solo (which is my least favorite on the album). The original LP apparently gives the correct acknowledgements.

I'm glad that's cleared up, because for so long I've listened to that mando solo in Blackberry Blossom and couldn't believe it was Bush, especially the clunkiness in the Eminor part of the tune. Bush has a much lighter touch and lilt in his fiddle tunes on the mando.

Jim

[Tom C]

I have not listened to it for a while but Grisman probably plays alot of pentatonics in that break.

[JimRichter]

The reason I don't like it is that there's no direction or theme to the solo. It's a lot of noodling and breaks the momentum of the tune.

[Scotti Adams]

..yep....Grisman just breaks the vibe of the record...

[chirorehab]

Not for me! I love BB and while 9lb is "out there", I enjoy it too! Although that break is more like a 2nd or 3rd break, I still like it!

For the record, I personally could do without any vocals on that album! And maybe 9lb should have been longer with more breaks for each player.

Eric

[Yonkle]

Where can I get this Manzanita CD? Did'nt see it on Grismans site. Sounds like a good CD!

[JimRichter]

I definitely list Tony R. as one of my all time favorite bluegrass (or any genre for that matter) singers. It's unfortunate that it appears those days have past him by.

Love the singing on that album and I really don't think I'd listen to it that much if it were all instrumental. Years ago I was into the instrumental album concept but have long since put it aside. I just can't make it all the way through one unless the writing is incredibly good.

The duet between Skaggs and Rice on Hold Whatcha Got is classic. Even considering how much of an old Seldom Scene fan I am, I think Rice does the definitive vocal on Old Train. It's a really strong vocal album, as most of Rice's early albums were.

Being a banjoist first, I never really listened to Rice's solo albums much (since they had no banjo) until I bought Cold on the Shoulder when it came out. It was then that I was blown away by his singing.

In regards to Grisman on 9lb Hammer--he should have respected the form of the song and played something more in keeping with the song.

Jim

[AlanN]

Hey, everybody likes what they like (and don't what they don't), which is all cool by me, but...

Grisman has a style that he applied/applies to all his tunes. I expect Dawg when he's on the session. To say he broke the tune is a bit harsh, IMO.

[chirorehab]

Jim, I do agree with you on Old Train - I do love that version.

As to 9lb, if the album were a traditional bluegrass album, then yes Grisman should have played a more melodic break. I feel, & maybe I am wrong, but since the title of the album is Manzanita - and the song of the same name is NOT a traditional bluegrass song & there is no banjo, this is not necessarily a traditional bluegrass album...

But, what do I know!

Eric

[kudzugypsy]

i bet there are miles of tape from that session. it was common at Arch Studios to play a tune for as long as there were ideas flowing and then splice them together.
i heard that on the original DGQ lp, that there were nearly 7 minutes of tony soloing on EMD that they spliced down to that one incredible break.

now that would be cool to reissue that CD with the extended versions.

[Scotti Adams]

..and "Midnight On The Stormy Deep"....now thats classic..it cant get much better than that...T And Skaggs are better'n bisquits and gravy...they Got-R-Did...

[Flowerpot]

Sounds like I need to re-listen to that break again. I guess now that I think about it, the Emin part has a lot of those 1st fret-2nd fret Grisman licks. And I gotta go pull out the old vinyl and check the notes there too.

[Peter Hackman]

i bet there are miles of tape from that session. it was common at Arch Studios to play a tune for as long as there were ideas flowing and then splice them together.
i heard that on the original DGQ lp, that there were nearly 7 minutes of tony soloing on EMD that they spliced down to that one incredible break.

now that would be cool to reissue that CD with the extended versions.
Sounds like Miles Davis' method, Bitches Brew, etc.

[jefflester]

Where can I get this Manzanita CD? Did'nt see it on Grismans site. Sounds like a good CD!
Just about anywhere......

http://www.midcontinentmusic.com/detail.cfm?Catalogid=956

http://www.amazon.com/exec....s=music (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000002DM/qid=1100738549/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-8205544-2612167?v=glance&s=music)

http://www.cduniverse.com/product....5156521 (http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?style=music&pid=1144241&cart=215156521)

[fatt-dad]

That Manzanita album is a good one! It was recommended to me six or eight months ago, I bought it and here we are writing about it. I enjoy every cut and never thought about mixing genre amoungst the players. Hearing the Ginsing Sullivan track brought me back to the New Grass Revival's first record, where I first heard the song. It had been awhile since I had bought bluegrass music and was real glad to have picked up Manzanita.

f-d

[chirorehab]

For a while Manzanita was the only cd I would listen to... until I started listening to DGQ's fist album...

Although, now my Ipod is full of hours of incredible mandolin music...

God bless the Ipod!

Eric

[Mando4Life]

I remember reading somewhere too that it was the Dawg on Blackberry Blossom. It sounds like a Dawg break to me (slides, etc).

My fave track on it is "I Hope You Have Learned"....what a tasty kick-off by Sam.

[PaulD]

I wasn't familiar with this album... it sounds like it's worth getting. Search Amazon or www.rounder.com... it's still available.

I would think that it should be pretty easy to distinguish Grisman from Bush if you've listened to much Dawg or NGR. In fact, I would guess that the version that was described as "a lot of noodling" would be Grisman... but here again I'm not familiar with the album so maybe I should shut up! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Paul Doubek

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

Manzanita has long been a favorite of mine. It was several years before I noticed there wasn't any banjo on the album! Maybe that's why I liked it so much. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Fretbear]

You can also buy it directly from www.tonyrice.com and he will even sign it for you if you like.....

[Jaded]

Good cd, tho some of the more out there stuff loses me. I'm not a huge fan of Dawg style mando, tho he does some nice stuff on a different project I have of him that has a more traditional sound to it.

The more I hear from Ricky's days of singing with T Rice and Keith Whitley the more I kinda wish he'd never become a big star.

Nothing against his lead singing, because it's generally good and I enjoy a lot of it, but that boy could sing some killer tenor.

[batman]

maybe a little off the subject,but i always thought that sam's fiddle kick off to 9lb hammer is one of the all time greats. It just has a groove that puts me in a good mood every time i here it. life is good Don

[Lefty&French]

This (european) side of atlantic ocean, Manzanita is "cult" LP, or now, CD. Bluegrass with a newgrass / dawg / Douglas / Skaggs high energy input.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[SternART]

The time NGR toured thru The Bay Area....... 6 months after Manzanita was recorded...... Sammy came to my studio in Oakland & jammed with Tony, Todd & Darol. That was back in the day when Todd built & repaired mandos in the back of my art studio. I think there is a bootleg of that jam floating
around somewhere......I recorded it on a Revox half track. They played the tune Manzanita & basically tore up a bunch of instrumental
tunes & a few songs from the record, as well as some DGQ stuff......They really could get a groove going!...... ahhhhhh the good ol days!

[Scotti Adams]

..more...Arthur....we want more....

[J. Mark Lane]

That Manzanita album is a good one! #It was recommended to me six or eight months ago, I bought it and here we are writing about it. #I enjoy every cut and never thought about mixing genre amoungst the players. #Hearing the Ginsing Sullivan track brought me back to the New Grass Revival's first record, where I first heard the song. #It had been awhile since I had bought bluegrass music and was real glad to have picked up Manzanita.

f-d
Is Manzanita bluegrass? (He asks with an evil grin.)

Truly one of the great albums. I sure wish Tony was still singing. Of course, the best version of Ginsing Sullivan is still the original by Norman Blake. (Not bluegrass, either <g>).

Mark

[SternART]

I recall having copies of the Manzanita studio tapes before the final selections had been made.......there were several versions of the various cuts, different solos, those guys are such great improvisors they just made up completely different breaks each time thru......there is great friendship & mutual admiration among those players.....hey the great pickers obviously know who their peers are......it was a treat for them to all be pickin together, and this was well before you heard Flux all over everything, or Ricky preaching, or people copying T. Rice licks....or Dawggy being the 'ol Dad....it was all new energy well before these kinda players would all be on stage together at Telluride or Merlefest year after year....it was a party for the musicians & the joy of the music & the friendship comes thru loud & clear on Manzanita. They played B.B several times thru in a row......each hotter than the the last one.....or not....it was all great. It is amazing how good they were back in 1978, but I think they are all more mature & stronger players today, more depth, the kind of depth that only experience & years of sharpening your skills as a musician can bring. Manzanita is a classic recording in the history of New Acoustic Music, as are the early DGQ recordings. The Bay Area was really a hotbed for acoustic music in those years.....hey it still is..... And anytime these same players find themselves jammin'on stage at Festivals today I think that same love of the music & mutual admiration friendship comes thru in their playing. Super pickers!!!

[Lefty&French]

Thanks, SternART, for the story and analysis.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif