Ignorance revealed

[vkioulaphides]

Just back from Carlo Aonzo's New York workshop; I refrain, however, from a review, as others (e.g. Jim Garber) attended all three days, unlike me, and have a better vantage-point.

Speaking, then, only of my own ignorance:

Carlo holds the pick 'between the first and second joint of the index-finger'; I think Pettine's approach was somewhat like this. I, au contraire, have always thought the pick to be an 'extension of the index-finger', and therefore hold it well past the last joint, i.e. between the last phalanx of the index and the thumb.

Carlo picks by moving the right hand in pendular fashion, from the wrist down; I think that is what Calace meant by his simile 'like two axles, one fixed (the forearm), one moving (the hand past the wrist)'. I, au contraire, "rotate" the hand past the wrist, as if winding one of those old, weighted-spring-driven wristwatches.

Where have I gone astray? The man does play like an angel come down from heaven! I couldn't possibly NOT be wrong... Still, I can tremolo for eternity and a day without fatigue. Have I raised a whole set of BAD habits to their highest degree of development? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Entirely possible. 40 years of picking, zero training, a thick head...

Your experiences, O mando-brethren?

[Jim Garber]

I am sure, Victor, that your views would be valued. The official workshop was Saturday and Sunday and the Friday activities were additional master classes. In short, those were just more in0-depth studies of the pieces we covered in the workshop.

Jim

[margora]

Personally I hold the plectrum more like Carlo (or Gertrud). But rh technique on the mandolin is, I think, a little like rh technique on the classical guitar; there are many possible variations. Whatever works musically without injuring oneself.

[Bob A]

Absent the vast network of professional mandolin instructors, one in every few blocks (or al least resident in every barber shop), dishing out uniform wisdom to hordes of clamoring students, we have had to make do with what we can find.

Even finding a mandolin can be a challenge.

I've seen professionals who plant a little finger on the edge of the instrument, and pluck merrily away; they are better pluckers than I'll ever be.

As they say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". As I say, "I fixed all these mandolins, now I'm broke". As said from another context, "Better to live in a time of mandolins and no money, than in a time of money and no mandolins". But I digress.

[Eugene]

I don't think you have gone wrong, Victor. You're simply grounded in an older tradition. Carlo claims his approach to straight-wrist plectrumming is relatively new, I think he even claims his specific approach originated in his father. When one considers that first generation of modern methods, most notably Pettine, they called for a rather excessive arching of the wrist. With the wrist so cocked, you don't really have much choice but to tremolo by rotation.

For plectrum grip, I tend to migrate back and forth between the two styles. I favor the index finger curled in a bit a la Carlo more often than not. This almost makes the plectrum seem an extension of the thumb, which feels very natural to me.

[vkioulaphides]

[QUOTE]"...simply grounded in an older tradition."

Ahhhhh... THAT's what true friends are for! Thank you, thank you, thank you, Eugene! So, no, I'm not dense and klutzy, just old-fashioned! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

My only "private session" with dear friend Tamara (Volskaya) only proved to me that I can follow a mere fraction of what she suggests: my grip more "open" than hers, my wrist not so elevated as hers (I totally lose my orientation vis a vis the strings playing "her" way—she, of course, doesn't!) Still, her show-and-tell way of describing the way the grip is "formed", as it were, is closer to my idea of "How it All Began". Carlo's, a whole different ballgame...

But, again, these people are professional-grade pickers; I'm not.

[Arto]

Ahh...well... this is MOST interesting.

I have been wondering about the very same thing, and been plagued by the same problem: no classical mandolin teacher around. Lot´s of excellent players´ CDs (with contrasting playing techniques), lots of excellent mandolin methods conflicting with each other. Enough to drive one crazy...

I think, it´s in theory possible to pick with at least the following ways:

-moving from the elbow down-up, with no wrist movement and no rotation of the forearm,
-wrist arched, rotation from the forearm, basically nothing happening in the wrist itself,
-elbow fixed, forearm fixed, no rotation anywhere, wrist moving laterally (sideways) (Carlo´s way?)
-and, innumerable possible combinations of the above?

And the next question is how to hold the pick (between what? see Victor´s post above) and how to hold the hand (tight fist, loose fist, fingers "open" and extended...).

Why do I remember Victor´s one post a long ago, where he told a story about #German bass player explaining about what percentage of his bow hairs are contacting with the string...?

I feel I don´t really know nothing. I suppose it´s all the same as long as you sound good (well, I don´t) and can play in a relaxed (=natural) manner.

I was consciously looking at the players´ right hands at the numerous concerts in EGMA symposium some time ago. Guess what? There where NO two players around, who would keep their right hands in exactly the same way. Not even the world-class German players (Gertrud Weyhoven and Caterina Lichtenberg), who have the same teacher. Didn´t hurt their music, though...

PS: Victor: I have always envied those persons who can play naturally-looking with wrist arched, using rotational movement, and hand and wrist free from contact with the bridge. Looks the most natural way to me. And if you can keep the tremolo going for ages... I envy you even more!

Best wishes to all,
Arto

[vkioulaphides]

Well, Arto, to put it all in crude, pictorial terms:

1.a. Lay your forearm on a table, wiggle your wrist laterally, withOUT moving the forearm at all = Carlo's way.

1.b. Do same, but with some forearm movement, especially on louder dynamics = Tamara's way. (She is, by the way, primarily a domra-player, and only an "occasional mandolinist" by her own admission.)

2. Hang your entire arm down, naturally, as pending from the shoulder; wiggle your hand with a veeeeeeeeeery slight rotation of the forearm, as if you had cookie-crumbs stuck on your fingertips and you were trying to shake them off, transfer this exact same motion to the usual mandolinist posture; the "older" way, to which I subscribe by virtue of my unschooled ignorance.

And, by the way, I do stay quite close to the soundboard, as Carlo does. But, again, what I do is of zero pedagogical value or validity...