Another eBay fraud?

[Scott Tichenor]

I've been down and out with the flu the past 2 1/2 days so I haven't even looked for this but I had an email from someone I know via the web who said his Flatiron mandolin was for sale on eBay and he wasn't the seller!

This is it (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1304&item=5534119381&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW). New seller with no history, UK based (nothing wrong with that but most buyers of this likely in the U.S.), no PayPal protection, five day auction.

Can eBay be trusted? If this much action is happening in mandolins, just imagine what their security team must be dealing with. They must employ hundreds just to chase fraud down. I'd think they almost have to be in a crisis management mode.

[Scotti Adams]

..I just read in the local paper that a group of people have been busted for running up the prices on auctions on Ebay. The unsuspecting buyers are starting to get reimbursed for the over charging on items....One fellow got reimbursed $3000 on a Mustang he had bought. But that makes me wonder why these people buy things that are not worth the price they pay for them...the lesser of two evils.

[jeremy_williams]

anymore I can't trust ebay, UNLESS its a local seller whom I can visit and see the product. Otherwise, i just stay away from it anymore, been burned too many times.

[John Craton]

There are some very reliable and trustworthy sellers on eBay, many of them mentioned here and some even members of the Cafe. You just have to be cautious of the unknown seller, and especially those with 0 feedback. Bid only on items being offered by people you know or know of and you'll avoid getting burned.

That said, I have occasionally won auctions from some unknowns (though never from someone with no feedback), and by and large I'd have to say my experience has been pretty good. I've ended up with a couple of instruments that were less than I anticipated, but at least I've never been "taken." I have occasionally even been rewarded with an instrument that far exceeded my expectations. eBay is a great place. But like crossing the street, you just have to be on your guard.

[Stephen Perry]

eBay is just a venue. I find folks too often abandon basic common sense principles of contracting. Somehow the flashy packaging does something akin to Vegas drone in the casinos.

Due diligence. Protected transaction. Knowledge of contract & UCC law. Gut feeling.

Ebay is just a venue like a classified ad. But some treat it differently.

And don't think remedies aren't inforced. I have been told by the defendant of a five figure settlement for negligent misrepresentation.

[Scott Tichenor]

Everyone was ultimately a first time seller. How good do you feel about purchasing from one these days? Wouldn't have thought too much about it a few years ago. Now? If someone really knew the mandolin community this scam would be pretty darn easy. I've bought and sold plenty but if you were to add up all of the phony ads for mandolins that are posted on this message board alone you'd have a trainload of them. I've never been burnt but I'm losing my stomach for eBay. Seems this board has become eBay's personal free security service more than anything.

[Mandobar]

many of the guitar classifieds have started carrying a disclaimer concerning frauds and warning users to be careful. gbase.com has closed their classifieds down. there is a discussion over on the 13th fret about frauds. best advice was given by hank mauel (a luthier). KNOW THY SELLER. as steve says, ebay is just a venue. the exposure that one can get (advertising-wise) is unprecedented. yet, the risks are getting higher everyday. not sure i'd buy anything $$$ there. most people i have sold to through ebay contacted me via telephone before bidding. i think that is a good idea.

[Bill Snyder]

Has anyone contacted ebay's fraud protection services about this particular listing?

[Scott Tichenor]

Has anyone contacted ebay's fraud protection services about this particular listing?
We may never know.

I was just searching for a link to an article in the SANS PrivacyBits (Internet Security) newsletter but couldn't find it. It outlines another well known scam where fraudulent sellers quickly sell a number of items (all phony, no money changes hands) and then gives themselves glowing feedback making the seller look like they have good reputation. That sets the trap for the big ticket item. Will keep looking for that one. I saw it just a few weeks ago and thought about posting it. Regret I didn't now.

Meanwhile, found this interesting article (http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=12955533&BRD=1675&PAG=461&dept_id=18177&rfi=6) about a user's experience with eBay while searching the same. Not trying to scare anyone but if you think stealing pictures off the web and selling with no feedback is the only, well, you're quite wrong.

[Bob A]

Scott, and others, I've recently bid on and won a bowlback from a first-time seller in the UK. Not without a certain trepidation, you may be sure.

I was encouraged by his emailing me several more photos of the instrument, and my feeling that the sale was probably legit. He's sent me a tracking number from parcelforce.com (which seems to be of little value, alas), and a note that he was off on his honeymoon.

He won't get far with his winnings on the mandolin, and I wish him joy. It remains to be seen whether I will receive anything, but I have my hopes still intact.

Generally speaking, I don't hold much faith in ebay's internal security. I've seen too much spoofing that seems to go on and on. But while I've given up on honesty in politicians, I have not yet written off the human race, despite my nasty habit of watching the news.

Anyway, this will all be a thing of the past soon. A fellow from a country I will not name has enlisted my aid in transferring millions of dollars to the US, for which I am to be handsomely compensated. And when it comes to pass, I shall send Scott a Loar.

[Scott Tichenor]

Well, I'm just yammering about eBay because I find it pretty tiring except for old Homer and Jethro joke books. I must be the only person on the web attracted to them. Still searching for the ultimate copy.

I love the last sentence from this, uh, auction: "Good Luck and get ready to be happy!"

In the words of Austin Powers, "yea baby!"

[Scott Tichenor]

A fellow from a country I will not name has enlisted my aid in transferring millions of dollars to the US, for which I am to be handsomely compensated. And when it comes to pass, I shall send Scott a Loar.
Bob, funny you should mention a Loar. I have one for sale and it'll be appearing on eBay soon, with a Buy It Now for only $10,000.00 U.S.!

And yes, it does have that rare 9th string.

[PaulD]

I haven't ever bought a "big ticket" item off eBay, but I recently bought a couple cameras for about $100 each and was very pleased with the deals. You certainly have to do due diligence, and if your nervous about a deal it's better to walk away than get burned. I do more than look at feedback ratings, I read the feedback to see if it looks plausible or gives me cause for concern. Establishing an e-mail rapport is good. I certainly wouldn't send a cash-equivalent on a big-ticket item... I would insist on being able to use a credit card or escrow service.

With regards to the folks that paid $3000 too much for a car... barring gross misrepresentation, I would chalk that up to the "auction mentality". It seems people have to "win". I've certainly gotten in bidding wars where I've lost the auction but won the war! I try to have a good idea what the item is worth to me... the most I will pay... before bidding. I lose more auctions than I win, but I'm okay with that because I end up disappointed but my money's still in the bank!

I'm curious, have you guys ever tried reporting these fraudulant auctions? I don't know how much eBay can do, but I'm wondering how much effort they appear to make if the user is reported.

Paul Doubek

[Jim Hilburn]

I just went through a frenzy of Ebay buying and selling, all started when some PA speakers showed up locally that I just had to have. Then I had to let go of some of my electric guitar toys to compensate.
I think a little common sense goes a long way. It's pretty easy to tell the straight shooters. Maybe now that Ebay owns PayPal, they should require it to play, although they ding you pretty good when you sell. Minimum, they should outlaw the wire transfers.

[GVD]

Bob A Posted

Anyway, this will all be a thing of the past soon. A fellow from a country I will not name has enlisted my aid in transferring #millions of dollars to the US, for which I am to be handsomely compensated.

Hey wait a minute He said he would transfer those millions to my bank account if I gave him access to it. Why I ought to.........

GVD

[PaulD]

I'm pretty sure there are billions of dollars in Nigerian and Liberian banks that need to be transferred to U.S. banks. In fact, they ought to be completing my transfer any day now. I feel extra secure, because Citibank e-mailed me and asked me to provide my bank account information so they could keep it secure. I really like the way these financial institutions are looking out for me! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

By the way, I have a 1923 Loar Flatiron that I would love to hang onto, but if anybody wants it for $10,000 cash ($5, $10, and $20s only please) I could be persuaded to let it go. Yeah, Loar was working for Flatiron on the side in the early days to pick up some extra cash. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Paul Doubek

[jim_n_virginia]

Meanwhile, found this interesting article (http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=12955533&BRD=1675&PAG=461&dept_id=18177&rfi=6) about a user's experience with eBay while searching the same.
Scott I was reading this article about the Powerseller who had her eBay account hijacked and just about fell over when I got to the part when she got an official looking e-mail that requested her password and other info and she GAVE it to them! Even my kid knows not to give out your username and password to anyone!

[jasona]

I'VE FIGURED OUT THE SOLUTION TO THE DEFICIT AND THE SOARING COST OF MEDICINE!!!

OK, so first BobD and PaulD. send me a percentage of their Nigerian windfall, and we order up some cheap drugs in Mexico and Canada (Hieronymous Hun is my boy in the drug trade) and GIVE it to Medicare. I have an inside line on ###### too... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[PaulD]

I'm with Jim_n_Virginia... my kids also know not to give out any personal information. I did the "buying flurry" in the spring and then again in September shopping for a camera for my son, and I started getting a bunch of these eBay scam e-mails. They usually have a convenient link you can click on that looks legit, but I was showing my 13 year old son that if I do a mouse-over the link refers to an IP address rather than an eBay domain.

It's too bad this woman got burned, but it also pisses me off that the press has to sensationalize the headline to get people to read. Couldn't this article have been titled "Sellers must guard their account information when selling on eBay", or "eBay sellers targets of increasing identity theft scams"? That would more accurately reflect the gist of the article; that this woman let her guard down and got burned. Hopefully, as more of these articles hit the news people will become more wary... but in the meantime I'll keep writing my shopping list for when my millions come in from Nigeria!

[mrbook]

I can imagine instruments not being as described on ebay (I've even purchased a couple), but I am really stunned to hear that non-existant instruments are being sold. Most people here on the cafe talk about buying from reputable dealers and builders, but we are still spending a lot of time on ebay looking for the sleeper $300 Loar. I've bought some good instruments there, others that were not quite so good, but my price limit on ebay is a lot lower than at a music shop - only what I can afford to lose (which isn't much).

[grandmainger]

I have successfully completed well over 100 transactions on eBay over a 4 years period, without a single problem. Items ranging from a few dollars to several hundreds of dollars. eBay is a great place to get some bargains, and certainly the easiest way for UK/Europe- based people to get certain US-based items.

You just have to be careful and sensible, that's all:
- If it looks too good to be true, it probably is. Items tend to sell for less than their value, but not for super cheap.
- If the seller offers a chance to purchase outside eBay, don't.
- If you are concerned about the newness of a seller (ie to few feedbacks or brand new user), use a legitimate escrow service.
- Always pay the extra cost to have a track-and-trace shipping service. (I have lost items in the post, it happens). In the UK, recorded delivery costs just £0.64 = $1. I include that cost in the shipping price I quote.
- Look at the items sold and bought by the seller in the past. This is usually a good clue to assess who you are dealing with.

It all comes down to keeping a cool head. Nowhere else will you be able to access such a global marketplace. I, myself, am loving it!

Germain

[AeroJoe]

Scott...THANKS for starting this thread...fellow Cafe Members, read on...

1. Won't re-hash this because I've told the details twice on other threads, but I had the pleasure of watching my own new Collings MF5 being auctioned off while in transit to my house from Mass Street Music. The day it got here, I was /playing/ it, as the bids kept going...a scammer from Canada simply lifted the photos of the MSM site and used them and it just happened to be the mandolin I purchased...

2) If ANY of you get an email from "Security @Ebay.com"...this is a scam. Yes, Ebay will legitimately ask you for a credit card update periodically...but they do NOT ask the name of your email (hotmail or yahoo) password, your mother-in law's name (???) your OTHER credit cards and their numbers, your checking account and routing numbers and threaten immediate termination of all Ebay priviledges if you do not provide this information ASAP...this one was very "official" looking, linked to Ebay, but I never filled it out, and nothing ever became of it... ...Nice try...

3) I have noticed that people with perfect feedback, like myself, who have worked hard for it, (6 years and a perfect 202) get a great number of people, much moreso than a few years ago, who will simply not follow YOUR rules...if you state "no bidders with negative feedback", or #"sorry, no Paypal", it does not matter, they bid anyway, then threaten your feedback if you don't cooperate with what has become suddenly...their rules...Hmmm.

3) I have sold 3 mandolins in the last 3 weeks or so...and in EACH one, the second place bidders were contacted by someone, using either my ebay name or a variation in it's spelling (like those "GIVSON" instruments in the photo section) stating that "the deal fell thru with the first bidder, if you will send me so & so amount to this address, I will ship the mandolin to you". ...Yeah, right...
To offset this, I contact every high bidder of my auctions personally, not thru Ebay, and let them know they are the winner...and I go ahead and contact the second and third place bidders forewarning them of possible scammers. If I DO contact a second place bidder in offering a second chance because the first bidder did actually fall thru, I give them a number to call which provides a message stating my name and a certain song being played in the background of the message machine...I then email them again and ask them to repeat my name and give me the title of the tune and we go from there...childish, yes, but it works for me...

4) Check for hidden identities...you can click on a seller's name. Feedback notwithstanding, sometimes a seller has changed names 3 or 4 times... # ...I always wonder why...

The original concept of Ebay was the based upon the premise that most people are basically good. And this Ebay thing was based on that, thus based on trust. An item is described accurately by trust, sold, the buyer sends the funds first, trusting the seller... the seller trusts the buyer to promptly follow thru with the transaction and send the funds...seems simple enough.

But is sure ain't like it used to be... # ...People try loopholes in shipping to gain a few extra bucks, shill bidding runs rampant (getting your buddies to bid your items up just a little bit more...) scammers are everywhere...

What's best? I don't know...but what works for me is to aquire whatever I sell on Ebay //cheap//...so there is no possible way I can lose money on the item. List it at No Reserve, opening bid of $1, it goes for what it goes for. That may sound like a gamble...it is sometimes, but if I have gotten the item cheap enough, it's a gamble in my favor...Listing it at a $1 opening bid gains interest in your item immedietely, and cost MUCH less to list than a Reserve or Buy-It-Now Auction. MUCH less. And if you have the patience of letting the item run 7 days or more, it lets you have the time to weed out by bid-blocking and removal, undesirable bidders...

The best thing that has happened to Ebay since it's beginnings are the dutiful people here on the Cafe and other sites that publically expose the scammers...Ebay does not, and I doubt ever will, police itself enough...it has gotten too big...

When it begins to be more of a headache than a moneymaker, I'll pull out...

[Scott Tichenor]

So here's a question. I report a scam to eBay on the mandolin in mention. How do they know I'm telling the truth? What if I put something on and a former disgruntled board member starts reporting me to eBay as a fraud? How does eBay's security police suddenly know who is telling the truth? What's the turnaround time?

In the past week I've three people forward those user name password request from PayPal to me between my day job where a few folks use it and someone I communicate that runs one of the biggest festivals in the country. Wonder how many I know, and I know plenty, who didn't contact me but trashed the email... or, worse? Sorry, but I don't share the notion that all users can or should spot fraud. Not everyone can distinguish it. I usually don't side with Jakob Nielsen on everything but this article (http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20041025.html) says it I think. Placing the responsibility on users isn't the answer that fixes this. If these scams weren't working quite well we wouldn't be seeing them.

I've always had positive experiences myself and have a perfect feedback record but maintain it's a risky place to buy an expensive instrument. This may come as a shock to you all, but most of the mandolin playing internet does not read this message board and see any of this. We benefit from a lot of collective observations. So, I'll continue to sell odds and ends on eBay--rarely anything mandolin--but buying. Maybe. And until there's a huge world scam run by a Homer and Jethro joke book crime ring I'll probably continue to buy those as well!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Scott Tichenor]

And one more thing: I maintain this message board is far, far, more effective at dealing with eBay's fraud issues for the mandolin community than they are doing themselves. Maybe there's an employment opportunity here for a few of you!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Here, read this (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3078461/).
and this (http://www.abika.com/Reports/ebayusercheck.htm)

You can find this stuff all day on Google searches. "TED, stop me... I... can't... help... it..."

[Stephen Perry]

I wouldn't put any faith in generic protection programs. For example, fraud protection through eBay only covers their definition of fraud, not fraud as it would be considered in a legal venue. My experiences with square trade suggest it is quite useless. Their mediation is bogus, for example, based on my mediation training versus my experience with their mediators.

The email scams demonstrate the remaining unacknowledged belief that the Internet is different. Someone walks up to you on the street and asks for your credit card number and PIN. Hmmm. No trouble laughing. Same thing happens via email and someone bites. Weird.

Checks offer better tracking than some other means of payment. A driver's license number really helps the police track people down.

I'm still looking for my $1,000,000 fake cashier's check. We got one for $11,000 (didn't even bother trying to deposit it). Maybe I should lower my sites to only $100,000.

Steve

[grandmainger]

So here's a question. I report a scam to eBay on the mandolin in mention. How do they know I'm telling the truth? What if I put something on and a former disgruntled board member starts reporting me to eBay as a fraud? How does eBay's security police suddenly know who is telling the truth? What's the turnaround time?
Typically, someone on the eBay team (with a fake account) will ask the seller a question such as: Can I by it now outside ebay make sure I win it? If the seller agrees, then eBay have good grounds to close the auction.

The eBay UK team usually close these auctions within 12-24 hours (based on those auctions I have reported), or as soon as they have established that the seller is breaking eBay T&Cs.

If one wrongly reports an auction as being a scam (out of spite for the seller perhaps), it is easy for them to tell whether the seller is bogus or not, using the same method. A legitimate seller should refuse to break the T&Cs...

[PaulD]

There is good advice... and legitimate concern voiced here. I would imagine other specialty groups are communicating fraud problems just as this group is, but that still leaves the majority of buyers out of the loop. There are some good tips here... I hadn't thought about the scam on the 2nd or 3rd high bidder. I guess the buyer can still protect themselves (somewhat) if they insist on doing the deal through eBay. I like the idea of protecting your bidders and your feedback rating by contacting these other buyers with the status of the auction. Obviously you have more leverage if you use a credit card (assuming the buyer uses PayPal or can service the card), because if you file a dispute with the CC company they have a strong motivation to send the authorities after fraud perpetrators.


2) If ANY of you get an email from "Security @Ebay.com"...this is a scam. Yes, Ebay will legitimately ask you for a credit card update periodically...but they do NOT ask the name of your email (hotmail or yahoo) password, your mother-in law's name (???) your OTHER credit cards and their numbers, your checking account and routing numbers and threaten immediate termination of all Ebay priviledges if you do not provide this information ASAP...this one was very "official" looking, linked to Ebay, but I never filled it out, and nothing ever became of it... ...Nice try...

This caused me concern... I have gotten the scam e-mails from security@ebay.com, but since 1998 I have never gotten a legitimate request to update my credit card information. That's not to say that they don't do it, but I'm unclear of why they would. If you are actively buying and using PayPal, you will update your CC information there. Regardless, you should be able to protect yourself by going to eBay's site to update the information rather than using any links in the e-mail.

Paul Doubek

[Cary Fagan]

Whenever I've been interested in a mandolin on ebay, I've always asked the seller to send me a phone number. In one case the price was just a little too good to be true and the seller didn't send me his number so I passed on it. Instead, I bought the next-best price from a seller who had an online store. In most cases, I've ended up having interesting chats with other mando lovers.

[grandmainger]

Ebay will legitimately ask you for a credit card update periodically...

...since 1998 I have never gotten a legitimate request to update my credit card information. That's not to say that they don't do it, but I'm unclear of why they would. If you are actively buying and using PayPal, you will update your CC information there. Regardless, you should be able to protect yourself by going to eBay's site to update the information rather than using any links in the e-mail.
I have received such a request in the past, when the Credit Card I used to register with eBay has reached its "expiry date". This however happened before eBay bought PayPal and I suspect eBay do not need to do this anymore as you point out.

Want the best tip ever to avoid falling for an email scam?: If you get an email from ebay, your bank, etc. Don't click on the links in the mail. Simply go to the website of ebay/your bank MANUALLY (ie typing in the address in your browser) and log in as usual. If there actually is some form of communication from eBay/your bank, it will be repeated there, with instructions. I do get legitimate messages from my bank about interest rates changes and other things, and sometimes, I get similar messages from scam producers. It's the clicking on the links inside the messages that is dangerous...

Be safe...

Germain

[PaulD]

I'm probably over my post quota for this thread http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif but I had another thought about my previous post. I suggested making sure you buy with a credit card, but obviously you need to protect your account number as well. Keep your virus software up to date, and get a spyware/adware removal product (virus protection software does not typically look for spyware). If someone plants a key logger on your computer, you may be giving them every account number and password for eBay, your bank accounts, that LL Bean order, etc.

Case in point: A woman at work told me last summer that her home computer had been blue-screening for 2 weeks and couldn't access the hard disk, so I asked her to bring it in. I plugged the disk into another PC so I could check it out, and since I was able to access the file system I ran a virus scan on it. I found something like 67 different viruses (virii?), trojans, key loggers, etc on the thing... and that was before I ran the spyware/adware scan! I was able to burn her personal files to CD, and then I wiped out the disk and reloaded WinXP. I made her promise to get virus scan software and keep it up to date (she had Norton, I think, but the license expired a year prior and she hadn't renewed it). I also suggested that she keep an eye on her credit report and credit card statements just in case, but hopefully nobody snagged anything useful.

My step son and I were also doing some work for my neighbor who runs an ISP. My step son tracked down an installation of SrvUFtp that somebody had sneaked onto the domain controller to serve up bootleg DVDs (that explained my neighbor's bandwidth complaints). We also found a file with 12,000 credit card numbers and all the personal information needed to use them (First & last name, SSN, mailing address, etc). We turned that list and IP addresses that were hitting the server over to the FBI. We've convinced my neighbor that a firewall is a good thing!

Paul Doubek

[AeroJoe]

That email from "Security@Ebay" really threw me...and I was not kidding about the asking of the mother-in-laws name...I did put that in there as an example, that was actually a space they wanted filled out...
It was so official-looking it was scary...

[Tom C]

Spyware,adware...etc. These spy programs and all that are put onto you computer are given such names that like
win.exe that you do not know if they are system apps or what ever. I had a big issue that made me wipe out my
computer and re-install everything. CoolWebSearch should # be shot, mauled and mutilated. And I'm sure they will be #when it's discovered who the heck they are -They got me. This is a CNN article (http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/internet/11/02/spyware.purveyors.ap/index.html) that really hits home.

[Steve Farling]

Hello All, I've been an ebay Buyer/Seller for 4 1/2 years now and have had no problems. With the exception of getting a few buyers to pay in a timely manner. I was fortunate enough to have made one of those "too good to be true" purchases just recently. It was at the same time Aerojoe's Collings was being offered fraudulently. I was able to win a bid on a new Gibson F5-G for $2648.00 with free shipping! Guess what? It was from a "Former Gibson Dealer" unloading his Gibson stock. I used some of the techniques that have been suggested already in this discussion, but I was a nervous wreck until I actually had the mando in my hands. I was aware of the Collings and some of the other frauds already perpetrated on ebay. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[PaulD]

Okay... I was going to drop it, but I got an e-mail back from the seller of this mandolin. His name is Larry Roberts (LarryRob212@yahoo.com) and he says:


Hi there,

Thanks for your e-mail. If you offer me £800 i will sell you the mandolin.

Let me know.

Cheers
Larry

I would offer it to him right now, but I checked my bank account and the Nigerians haven't made the deposit yet. I don't know what's taking so long... in fact, I'm pretty sure I had money in that account, but I must have been mistaken. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Paul Doubek

[Dru Lee Parsec]

Meanwhile, found this interesting article about a user's experience with eBay while searching the same. Not trying to scare anyone but if you think stealing pictures off the web and selling with no feedback is the only, well, you're quite wrong.

Hey Folks. #If you read the article you will see that the way her account got hijacked was that she received an email asking her to resubmit her account information. #It looked like an official ebay email so she went for it. #This is exactly how these scammers get your passwords.

I work for a major California bank as a software engineer. #These "fishing for passwords" emails are becoming quite common. #If you receive an email asking you to resubmit your authorization information to ANYTHING you can be 100% sure that it's a scam. #Some of the companies that have been hit by these bogus emails are:

EBay
Pay Pal
Almost every Bank in the US.

In every case the emails look official. #They steal the logo and look and feel right off of our web site.

A bank, or website will NEVER ask you to send them a password. Also, NEVER NEVER send anyone one of the following pieces of data:

Social Secrity Number
Date of Birth
Mother's Maiden Name.

If you receive any of these emails then you can forward the entire email to the REAL company. #For example, there are some folks sending out an email saying that our bank customers need to go to a web page and re-log in. #Of course, their stealing the on-line banking passwords. #We ask our customers to send us the email they received and we use it to track down these crooks (and yes, we do investigate and yes, the FBI is involved)

There is NEVER a valid reason to send somebody your password, or personal information. #If you are asked to "Re-submit" or "Re-login" to a different URL than where you usually go then you are being scammed. #DON'T DO IT.

Stay Safe.

Greg

[Mandobar]

tom c,
coolwebsearch came through an aol messenger update download on my pc. as far
as i am concerned aol should be shot right along with them. also, beware if you have
teenagers or kids who like to use those chat programs like smart talk. i am now using something called spy sweeper as well as norton security software.

[acousticphd]

[/QUOTE]There are some good tips here... I hadn't thought about the scam on the 2nd or 3rd high bidder.

Whenever I've been interested in a mandolin on ebay, I've always asked the seller to send me a phone number. #In one case the price was just a little too good to be true and the seller didn't send me his number so I passed on it.[QUOTE]

In addition to warnings and signs of major/obvious scams, I think it is equally key to be well-informed on what signs and information make for good, honest ebay ads. #There have been several comments, but maybe we could try to underscore what information we A) should expect to see (as an ebay buyer) or B) provide in the auction to bidders (as ebay sellers), that help convey confidence that things are honest and on the level. #Here I'm not talking about auctions for the alleged rare collectible or multi-thousand dollar highend instrument, but a more stock-in-trade type auctions. #For example, let's say it's a mid-80s Flatiron mandolin listed at $1000-$1200. #For me, this is an important example category where we really have been and can be served by ebay.

I have bought a several instruments on ebay that fit this example, but haven't ever sold anything (you don't hear much about Mandolin Reduction Syndrome). But one day I expect I will try to sell something on ebay. #Assuming you and a few other honest sellers and deal-seekers are still using ebay, what is the short list of information you want to see from an individual seller, #and should be willing to put out there as a buyer? #

Instrument Serial number? Personal phone number, or insisting on at least one phone conversation? Asking for/providing a true email address? #Offering a trial period? #Probably my minimum criteria has been to exchangeat least one email with the buyer asking about the condition, playability, potential issues, etc, and receiving a detailed reply. #If I ever list something as a first-time seller, I would like the community to trust my ad. #What do you provide, and want to see? #Another difficult thing - maybe small potatos compared to the dangers in the sophisticated scams - is judging whether to pursue the beat-up old Gibson. #Is it a closet treasure or a repair nightmare? Is the seller honestly uninformed and uneducated about its condition, ignorant but trying to use the proper buzz words ("neck is straight, all seams look tight, easy action!"), or deviously understating its problems? #

Reading about a number of identified scams in recent posts here has made me begin to hesitate or suspect several ebay auctions. #This is of course not a bad thing, but I now almost expect to see posts here about any interesting new auction. #If I don't see any bids being made for the $1000 Flatiron, I've found myself wondering if there is some inside scoop I haven't picked up on.

[PaulD]

Jeff,

From my perspective, the things I look for (in addition to checking out the seller as I listed above) are good, clear, focussed pictures. It used to be that not everyone posted pics on the their auctions, but eBay is active enough now that if there are no pictures or if they are horribly out of focus, I wait for the next auction.

When I was buying the camera for my son (actually I bought and upgrade for myself too) a couple months ago, I was bidding much more confidently (and therefore higher) when the seller offered a trial period. There is so much you can't see with something complicated like a camera that I probably wouldn't buy it unless the seller specifically states that it is in good, working condition and offers a return/refund. Still no guarantee against fraud, but if I'm dealing with someone honest that cares about their eBay reputation they will usually stand by their word.

Serial numbers or ways to check the merchandise are good, but I've never really checked them out. On the camera I bought for myself I noticed that the S/N on the pic in the auction was different than what I received. Since the model was the same and what I got actually looked better than the one in the listing, I brought it to the seller's attention but left good feedback and was pleased with the deal.

When I check feedback, I also expect to see that the seller gives feedback. If they don't (some explicitly state it), I won't bid as high because I consider feedback to be such an essential part of eBay. If I see occasional bad feedback on an otherwise reputable looking seller, I check other feedback left by the author of the bad feedback to see if they are simply bitchy. Nobody that does a ton of business will have flawless feedback, but I look for patterns that make me uneasy.

Obviously buying a fixer-upper instrument is going to be risky... I would engage in an e-mail (or phone) exchange to try to decide what the seller knows and what I'm getting into. I bought 2 fiddles several years ago for under $200. One had top and back separation and was missing that little ebony part that the tail-gut wraps around (and whose name escapes me). The second one looked better online, but in person I think the f-holes had been cut out with a drywall hammer! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif They both came in nice old wooden coffin cases, but the first one was higher quality when it was new. Between the 2 I also ended up with 3 bows... one needs a slight straightening. I repaired the first fiddle; it's got a wonderful tone and its bow has a nice feel. So for a little over $300 I ended up with a good fixer-upper and one I could probably make playable if I try, but I could have ended up with $300 worth of firewood!

One last ramble; I got a significantly better deal on my son's camera than a lot of the comparable auctions I bid on and lost. This is probably because I found the auction by searching on a common misspelling of the name. In this case, Minolta Maxxum was Minolta Maxuum. I find that the competition is much less fierce when the name is misspelled. When looking for Stanley planes I always search for Stanely as well, and if I were searching for mandos I would probably check Gibsen, Gibbson, and Webber on the off-chance that I might score a deal. If you want to get the most bids, I would make sure the spelling of the manufacturer and model is accurate.

Sorry for the long post, but I hope this is helpful.

Paul Doubek

[mtnrose]

Im becoming more and more hesitant to bid on Ebay. Ive never really gotten burned but have had a couple instruments turn out to be not as great as the seller said. Had one bowlback that arrived with major cracks, the seller said they were minor and the pictures werent that clear.Im planning on turning that one into a learnig project and trying to repair it myself.

I confess I did participate in one deal off site. Several years ago I was high bidder on an A jr,that didnt meet the reserve in 2 auctions. It had been refinished. The seller then offered it to me but Id already bought something else which didnt really work outfor me. About 3 months later I contacted the seller who was on verge of putting it back on Ebay and bought it, for the amount of my original bid but he paid shipping. I asked very detailed questions, he sent very detailed pics and measurements and after multiple emails I ended up with a wonderful instrument. Would I do same thing now....NO WAY.
Lately Ive been deluged with scammers and spoof Ebay & PayPal emails. I think I got about 10 offers from Romania and Indonesia trying to sell me a 1923 Gibson mandocello "brand new in original box" for $600 to $800. I do agree the folks at EBay have there hands full and the response time may seem slow but they do act. so keep reporting the scammers. I reported bid shilling. The auction was closed & sellers suspended but it did take about 24 hours. In this particular case the seller had about 10 feedbacks, all positive. So I figure he had about 10 previous victims but wasn't caught.

[neal]

Scott, the auction in question is now gone.


And my dynamic image posting is still disabled

[Dan Adams]

My only ebay scam came with a non-instrument related purchase. I reported it all the 'on-line' authorities, and even the Texas FBI. No response, and no satisfaction. Ebay is definitely a 'buyer beware' environment. My suggestion; Buy in the Mandolin Cafe Classified. At least, the community will support your efforts!!! Dan

[AeroJoe]

Ought to really be fun as we move into the holiday season...

Who thinks that K-DAWG will show up again before Christmas?

[Perry]

Ironically I just sold a Flatiron A5 on E-Bay...me and the purchaser had nothing but warm and fuzzy things to say about the transaction in our "feedback" posts.....


tips-offs:
the deal is too good to be true or there is some "story" going on....we need to be able to sniff out the crooks

co-mando and the cafe are always my first choice for sales but e-bay expanded my market to allow a sale

p.s. anybody want to buy a really sweet EM-200 Florentine? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[MANNDOLINS]

Here is another one to watch for....
I recently had "broker" from africa wanting to purchase one of my mandolins (that he saw on ebay) for a "client". He said he would have his client send a cashiers check for full amount plus "broker's fee". Then he asked that I cash check and forward his fee to him. I played along to see what would happen. Yesterday I received a $4000 cashiers check (for a $1200 mandolin) by ups overnight. It shure looks real but when I call the bank that it was drawn on they said the routing # was a fake...go figure. Here is a link to cashiers check scams. #scams (http://www.internetfraudservices.com/latestnews.htm)

[PaulD]

I had just heard of this new scam a couple days ago... this is the first first-person account I've heard about.

About the same time someone told me her brother-in-law Western Union'd a check for $3000 to a seller of an ATV, only to find out it was a hijacked eBay account (similar to the article that had been sent around).

Paul Doubek

[Tom C]

MANNDOLINS,
How can somebody expect you to foward them the "broker fee" if the check never clears? Are people really that stupid? If so, I have a bridge I'm selling -The Brooklyn one.

[PaulD]

This might be ridiculous... or stupid... especially given the new rules to clear check faster, but I think they're counting on a float before the check comes back as a forgery. If you were to deposit the check and cash out the scammer's share, it would take a day or few for your bank to have the check returned by the "issuing" bank. Then your account would be reduced by the check amount and you would be holding the bag. I'm sure it's a numbers game, like the "give us your bank account number so we can deposit a million dollars" scam, but if they get a handful of suckers they're doing pretty well.

Paul Doubek

[Scott Tichenor]

Are people really that stupid?
Yes.