Is honesty the best policy

[ronlane3]

Here is a poll for you players. How many times have you been at a festival or jam and someone ask you about their mandolin? Even if it is a POS (Piece of stuff), what do you say? Do you tell them that it is a killer mandolin, even though you know its bad, or do you tell them that it isn't that good?

I have been in this situation on occasions and it has not always been with a cheap import mandolin, although, that is generally the case.

On here, we have members that just rip into a person that just got X brand mandolin, even though they haven't heard it. But in person that would be way too harsh.

I can truthfully say that I have been very proud of my import even though it is not as loud as a lot of American made instruments. But when I asked a person, I was really looking for an honest answer to how it sounded.

Just some thoughts

[Greenmando]

Tone is subjective, what sounds good to me could be bad for others.
If I was asking someone else how mine sounded I would want them to play it first. Mandolins project away from us and it really is hard to hear for yourself. A great player can make any POS sound like a master model. If you need a answer for someone you prefer to not answer, just say "I bet Sam Bush could make this baby sing"

[mad dawg]

Here are a couple of options from Robert Heinlein...

A) An effective way to lie is to tell the truth, just don't tell all of it ("Nice action", or "Good choice on your tailpiece upgrade.")

B) The best way to lie is to tell the truth in such a way that it is likely to be disbelieved: ("This is one baaaaaad mandolin!")

[mrbook]

Honesty is not always good when it hurts someone's feelings. We had a band member who was very "honest" and it took about a year for the rest of us to get our reputation back after he left.

Last Saturday our group played a show with three other bands. Today a guy in one of the other bands stopped by to visit, and asked what I thought of his band. Should I have told him they had no business playing in front of people, even for free? (It was a fundraiser) #I told him I enjoyed hearing them, and we had a great time that night.

If someone loves their instrument, whatever it is, who am I - or who are you - to insult him with your "honesty?" I've played some very expensive instruments that are nice, but I wouldn't want it.

I also tried one of the "Esteban" guitars advertised on late night TV the other day. The owner loves it, but our whole band tried it, and none of us are calling the 800 number. The prismatic soundhole rosette was cool, though.

[Stephen Perry]

Telling the truth is a real art form. I got used to it doing law. "Should do fine for you" is always safe if that is true. If there's no reason for someone to ask except reinforcement, then a generic response works.

In violin work people ask me what I really think. I am generally very direct, as we would like a doctor to be. For in-shop visitors the exchange goes something like: "This was an OK beginner violin when it was new. The bad repairs here and here really hurt it a bunch. With the low neck angle and this amateur bridge it sounds very thin and responds quite slowly. The non-standard measurements aren't helping any, either. You'd do better with a more standard instrument in good shape. This one will be difficult to learn on." I find people asking in the context of a shop environment already have a good idea that they've been ripped off.

On the phone, I get the "I found this Stradivi violin in the attic it must be worth a damn fortune heavy breathing . . . ." The standard lecture follows.

The difficult part is in being forced to ding either the buyer's judgment or the ethics/knowledge/skill of someone else. Still, being very direct and honest has done me well enough where it counts. Different people respond differently. I've had clients and dealt otherwise with people whose mental model of the world and the deal or whatever is rigid and very different from what everyone else sees. I've had other folks who immediately grasp that they've been taken and start working towards a rational, ethical recovery right away. Often I can't tell what kind of person I'm dealing with ahead of time. Thus some people don't like me. Whoopie. I can do without those people.

In social settings? Say something true and accurate. If someone is playing something bad, one can quietly suggest that at the rate their skills are growing they'll be good enough to invest in the next step within a few months. Someone trying to learn on something unplayable needs to be told eventually.

Steve

[John Flynn]

Here are a couple of options from Robert Heinlein...
Heinlein also said, "An armed society is a polite society." I bear that in mind when criticizing other people's mandolins! #

Seriously, I have given negative comments about other people's instruments about three times in my life. Every time I was being completely constructive and as diplomatic as I could. It has not proved to be a good thing to do. Like one time a really good fiddler I know had just bought an antique parlor guitar, so she could learn to play guitar on it. The night she got it, she brought it to a jam and wanted me to play it so she could hear it. I played it for about two hours at the jam and she wanted to know how I liked it. It was a really great little guitar and I told her so emphatically and she was pleased. But then I also suggested that at some point, it might need new tuners. The original tuners were really loose and I had trouble keeping it in tune. This suggestion really upset her and she gave me the silent treatment the rest of the evening. The other two times I was honest had similar outcomes.

So, call me a wimp on this topic, but I will not criticize anyone's instrument to thier face anymore. However, I will not say anything more than "That's nice" if I don't like it. I won't gush unless the instrument is truly "gushable."

[Yellowmandolin]

I was at a festival this summer and I was playing a guy's '94 Gibson Bill Monroe model. Of course it sounded great, but then he asked me how it sounded compared to the new distressed master models. He he... Well what do I say to someone who has a $9000 instrument? The distressed was the best sounding mandolin I had played, so I said his sounded pretty close to it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[mrbook]

To go back to the initial post, even when you might want an honest answer about how your mandolin sounds, you might not be prepared for someone's opinion, which while honest may or may not be right.

When trying someone else's mandolin, a smile and the phrase "not bad" covers a lot of territory.

[GTison]

If someone ask me how their's sounds I would just be nice. If they really want an evaluation I think I would sit down with them at their camp site and play it and explain what I meant and have them listen and compare also. But it really can be quite a thankless thing. You can easily come off as a premadona.

But I have had folks hand me a cheap inport and say 'it's a great mando' 'and I only paid 400 for it.' 'soinso said it was goodasagibson' you may as well just say yeah it's better than mine. And then find another jam or hope he goes off to show it to someone else. As a matter of fact, THAT's a great idea , next time I'll tell em to go show it to old joeblow overthere across the campground he'd really like to see that one.

[Greg H.]

If I think it's a real POS then I'll usually say something relatively non-descript (e.g. 'Not bad') and turn the question back at them with something like 'How do you like it?' In the long run that's what really matters. If they really like it and enjoy playing it then I'm doing everyone (myself included) a disservice by shooting their balloon. Either they'll eventually get a better appreciation of what a good mandolin sounds like compared to the one they have, or I'll get a good sense of what jam sessions to avoid. I have had people approach me with an instrument they were uphappy with, and wanted to have their dissatisfaction supported by a disinterested party (at which point you can say "You're right, it does sound like a POS!")

[Tom C]

An instrument is a very personal belonging. I would never put down another person's mando -especially if I'm there with an expensive one. There's always something good to say. Even if it's "Wow, that's good for the price."

[Stephen Perry]

I've just never considered lying nice.

One can always ask if someone really wants to know.

I suspect being in a business where people really want my opinion most of the time influences my approach.

Steve

[squeally dan]

This is an interesting topic. When I bought my MK mando, they gave me 2 days to try it out. The 1st thing I did was take it to a friend that can actually play mando. I just wanted him to tell me if it was good enough to start out on. He said it sounded great! I told him I knew it wasn't as good as his Weber, and I wasn't expecting it to be. He said he thought it sounded as good as his Gallatin. I really appreciated his help, but I would have more appreciated honesty.

[mrbook]

I'll say this kindly, because I mean it that way, but I think that if you are in the instrument business and you knock someone's instrument they might think you are merely trying to sell them one of yours. At one local music store I sometimes visit (as little as possible), every time I ask for a part they tell me that my instrument is not very good, but they could take it in trade on a new one. I bought my first good guitar there 30+ years ago, and they have been in business about 80 years, so they have parts lying around #you can't find other places, but their "opinions" seem driven by their desire to sell.

I think this discussion is more about personal situations, when people want to show you an instrument they really like. Most people don't want honesty. A couple weeks ago, a friend brought in the new J-45 he just bought at Guitar Center for my opinion. It looked great, sounded great, and I told him so (I wouldn't have minded having it), but also mentioned a couple things I would tweak on the setup. His face fell, and he said, "I don't have to do that, do I?" I told him it was just my opinion, and he may like it as it was. That's all people want to hear, and there's nothing wrong with that, nor is it dishonest to be nice.

I don't want the truth, either, but I probably won't ask you what you think of my mandolin. I'll let you play it, but as long as I like it I don't need another opinion.

[keymandoguy]

What makes you feel good is when people tell you your mando sounds good , has a good chop sound, etc without you asking anyone. Not even going to say what it is but it aint no expensive high price one. alllIll say its its got 2 names http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[plunkett5]

I studied music in college and went to dozens of student recitals. Some very good, some very poor. There was usually a meet and greet reception following the performance. Since we were all trying to get better, lying wasn't really an option. There was sort of an accepted code that when someone performed poorly you would compliment them on the tone of their instrument, eg "Your violin sounded great tonight!" Everyone knew what you meant. Maybe we could develope a similar phrase for instrument evaluation that allows for honesty kindly said.

[Bob A]

It's a crime against humanity to crush the spirit.

It's criminal to lie for economic advantage.

There's a lot of shadowy areas implied in the examples above. The thing is to try to respond to the sentiment that is implied but not expressed. Some folks want ecouragement, or to show off their new toy. Most people are probably not interested in a dispassionate honest evaluation. It is merciful to provide what the other person expects, if you can figure out just what that is.

Oddly enough, making someone feel good about an instrument may well improve the tone they labor to produce, so stretching the truth make make it come true.

Interesting topic.

[ronlane3]

Thanks for all the responses. I have never given a negative response to someone asking me about a mandolin, but have played some that I'm real thankful that I do not owe. I was surprised that someone did chime in that they would rip the person. I have actually heard of that happening.

[mandofiddle]

This topic reminds me of a story my fiddle teacher once told me. I don't recall the festival or year, but that's not important. Anyhow, she tells me about how she was at a festival jam, I'm assuming Weiser, and there was this one guy who just kept coming up and interupting the jam trying to get someone to play his fiddle and tell him what they thought. Apparently this started to tick off the jammers, as he was actually interupting them while they were playing and not taking no for an answer. So finally one guy (who it seems was the jam leader) stopped the jam and grabbed the guys fiddle and proceeded to play a few lines on it. Hands it back to the guy and says "I wouldn't even use that thing for firewood!" Yikes!

[fatt-dad]

Tact is an important part of civilization. If someone was no good on the mandolin, it may be honest to tell him he sucks, but not very tactful. If were all honest, things would get screwed up real fast.

[Jim Rowland]

I was a diamond grader cost estimator for a custom jewelry company many years ago. The first thing the old fellow who was training me told me was that when people found out what I was doing, they would shove a diamond under my nose and ask what I thought of it. "The answer always is",he warned me,"It's a very nice stone."

While I appreciate the kind intentions,the ideas expressed by most of the respondents make it very hard for a fellow to know where he is going with the mandolins he is building.
Jim

[fatt-dad]

But wouldn't you just know if you built a mandolin that sounded like horse pucky?

[Stephen Perry]

Honesty doesn't mean no tact. Being civilized doesn't mean being a whimp. I have found that people appreciate gentle honesty when they make a serious request.

I'm familiar with shops that ding everything. Fortunately I don't have one. Sometimes people bring in the most wonderful things. There's something magic about telling someone that dad's old fiddle is worth $4000, more or less. Sometimes they bring in junk. Sometimes I can help them out, sometimes I can't. But being anything less than honest isn't fair.

On the other hand, there are certain folks who seem always to assume that others are being dishonest or withholding information or something. These people seem the most likely to be dishonest or withholding information themselves! Fortunately I mostly find them in the ranks of my legal clients, not among musicial people.

Fortunately most instruments match their owners pretty well. Maybe they need a little setup or strings or something, but usually they match.

[s1m0n]

when people found out what I was doing, they would shove a diamond under my nose and ask what I thought of it. "The answer always is",he warned me,"It's a very nice stone."

Words to live by. I'm a writer, and it's the same. If people I know socially ask for my opinion on their writing, I ALWAYS love it.

If they say, "be honest, even if it hurts," they are lying. What they mean is "Praise me unreservedly or I'll never speak to you again."

In a professional context, it's different, although I try never to be without tact, or without finding something in the manuscript to praise.

[fatt-dad]

In a professional setting, I would agree with giannaviolins. If someone goes to an expert (in a business setting), they deserve and expert opinion. If someone goes to a peer, that's different. If someone comes by my house and asks me what they think of their new car, mandolin, green plaid suite, I would be pleasant (if I felt neutral) or (if I really loved it) I would rave. I cannot think of a situation where I would say, "No I do not like your hat. Goodby"

In my role as a consulting geologist/engineer, I also get clients to tell me of their good ideas. In that setting, I have to tell them (and I build trust by doing so) the truth. Sometimes, it can lead to additional expenses, delays or changes in plans. If I didn't tell then my honest opinion, then I couldn't sleep at night (or enjoy playing my mandolin on the sofa.

[mrbook]

In 1975, I had a date with a woman, and at the end of the evening we went back to her apartment. She got out some of her writing and read me her work in progress. She asked for my opinion, and in my best diplomatic tone I said, "Not bad." She asked me to leave - I did, and never looked back.

[Clyde Clevenger]

I went to see John Reischman and the Jaybirds last Thursday night. Talking to John after the show he said he remembered playing my mandolin in the first Mando-tasting at Wintergrass and he thought it was a really good one. Was he being honest? I don't care, sure made me feel good.
Went right home and learned Nesser.

Unless it's bidness, leave 'em feeling good.

[Stephen Perry]

I can imagine slanting my results to please a client in the oil patch. That would have been interesting. On the other hand, the truth didn't always work. "I think you'll hit granite at 5,500 ft" doesn't even stop some of them! I was wrong - they hit granite at about 6,000 ft. No matter, it didn't contain oil!!!

About those in business having different standards (suggested by the other geologist here), that is very true. Between law and the instrument business I end up seeing myself required to give the truth in most settings. I also tend to be quite direct. Fortunately those who know me or my reputation know better than to ask me something they don't want an answer to.

One related thing that happens, which is really quite interesting, is when people tell me about things. An instrument, or some other kind of story or something. Sometimes people lie or at least say something rather inconsistent in some way. I don't know how most people deal with it. I tend to drop right into cross-examination. Get them to commit to the lie. Then present them with the conflicting information. This is also useful for unprepared sales people, an all too common thing.

So many things are business for people in the trade. One technique I've used when asked about instruments is to place the instrument in the spectrum of instruments. I'm usually asked for an opinion on the fiddler's Italian violin. I go through my analysis pretty fast. "Well it isn't German, look at XXXX. The scroll and work doesn't look Italian really. But the scroll and edgework look very French, see this and this. I know this label was often used in French trade work. What makes you think it is Italian?" "Well, I got from >>>>> and he said it was Italian." "I would think he was mistaken, but it is a decent French violin." "Well I paid $2000 for it." Here's where I'll legitimately fudge: "The market is so up and down on things it is really difficult to evaluate price. Anyway, the price on this level of instrument usually springs from how well it works, and this one must work very well for you." Then the problem "Can you give me an appraisal for my insurance company and tell me how much it would sell for?" Usually the insurance / full retail shop value will be somewhere around $700 and the wholesale a good bit less. Helps to have a few comparables and treat the exchange as an educational thing.

Now, I've seen the results of someone having a shop write an inflated insurance appraisal, then having the instrument destroyed and the insurance company asked to pay. When the insurance adjuster shows up and asks for an appraisal one doesn't know the value claimed for. So my appraisal based on comps of $700 v. the claimed value of whatever (I've seen things like $15,000) will result in denial of the claim or at least reduction, and could end up looking like insurance fraud and perhaps conspiracy. So honesty looks really essential if one is even remotely associated with the business.

From the other side, there are indirect ways to be honest. Hand someone the real thing without comment and see if they can tell the difference.

Here's an honesty example. I was asked to informally evaluate an instrument. I evaluated it as a low-level factory product with a reasonable sound, but with quite a few minor problems not really fixable. I valued it at perhaps $300. The buyer had paid $1700 from a reputable shop with the assurance that the work done by the master luthier there made it worth $2500. After some uncomfortable communication (not involving me), the shop refunded all the money. Under this circumstance, the easy thing for me to do would have been to say that it played as well as many $2500 instruments, which it did, and leave it alone. I don't see that as the right thing to do.

Just some fun thoughts and experiences. Dealing in instruments is very interesting. I'm much more comfortable doing it with my legal background. My geology experiences seem much less useful to the trade!

[fatt-dad]

To continue the banter. . .

giannaviolins makes many good points, which I see in the business setting. The original posting struck me as not a whole lot different than being in a social setting and the host asks you how you like the soup. Now if it is well known that you are a soup fancier, some comment is anticipated. Do you say, "well I have a recipe that you may find interesting" (i.e., not answer), do you say, "well the flavor is complex, but not quite my thing", do you say, "very unusual", or do you say, "I like it"? Well all of these may be appropriate. But if you clearly do not like it (i.e., it stinks, you could have done better with one hand tied behind your back, the flavor was not complex, etc.), I have a feeling, you would play Miss Manners and say something plesant. After all, you being an invited guest need to respect the social setting.

fatt-dad

[250sc]

I cracked up when I read something Doc Watson was quoted as saying about the Steve Kaufman course of Doc Watson material. The quote was something like Steve Kaufman really knows good music.

[mandodebbie]

Doc Watson comes from my town - Portage la Prairie, Manitoba!:cool:

[mandodebbie]

Ooooooppps! Correction. The group Doc Walker cames from Portage. Sorry. I'm so ashamed. (I don't think they even play mando. That has got to change!):laugh:

[Spencer]

Mark Brinkman made the perfect comment when he played my old mandolin, "I've heard a lot of mandolins like that"

I knew what he meant, but it was said in a nice way. Then I played his mandolin and started shopping.

Spencer

[mandopete]

....just remember what your mother always told you:

"If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

[Jaded]

I really don't expect honesty from others in such a situation...though I have at least one friend that generally offers it whether you want it or not. However, I don't always agree with that person's opinion, which is really all any evaluation of an instrument is.

However, I do think if you ask for someone's opinion you should be prepared to hear something that you may not be pleased with.

Personally, if someone foists an instrument on me, unless they are evaluating a purchase decision, if I don't like it I'll just say something non descript. "Sounds good" or "not bad" or something along those lines.

I don't generally ask people for opinions on how my instruments sound. I have on occasion asked better players to play my instruments so I could hear what they sound like and form my own opinion, and often they will offer comments, sometimes sincere, sometimes not.