View Full Version : A2 vs A2Z questions
kudzugypsy
Oct-31-2004, 2:10pm
i've been looking for a nice loar era snakehead, but i cant seem to find any reference to the difference (besides binding options) between the A2 and A2Z. the A2's arent quite half the going price of the rarer A2Z, but they seem to be the "same" mandolin.
any input???
thanks
kudzugypsy
Oct-31-2004, 2:39pm
oh yeah, one more thing, - were those pressed tops or carved tops?
A2z has binding with a black line in it, a natural finish top (instead of black or brown which is *much* more common), a different soundhole ring, and likely a maple back. They were also only made during the Loar years, so almost all (except one I have seen) are snakeheads (pegheads that taper away from the nut like a snake's head), which also makes them more desirable. Generally, the A2z mandos sound pretty darn good next to their brown A2 neighbors, but that's all something you have to try for yourself.
Basically, A2z mandos have some extra mojo. They're more rare, kind of cool looking, and have some special appointments, both in looks and where it counts in sound.
The tops on all old Gibsons were carved, except for the "Alrite" or "Army-Navy" models which were flat-tops.
Charles Johnson
Oct-31-2004, 9:24pm
Actually, there are A2Z models that are stamped A. I have two. Both are 1924, snakehead, black top, and have the pearl logo, bound top, back and fingerboard, wide white soundhole ring, and the extra black inner top binding. One of these has been my personal mandolin for 20 years. The other will be for sale after the frets are reworked.
Best regards,
Charles Johnson
Mandolin World Headquarters
www.vintagemandolin.com
Yes, that model has many anomalies around it. In fact, there are more quirks and variations 1923-1925 that we've seen in other periods, though it may be simply because the Loar period gets a lot of attention. Check out this Paddle-head A2z (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?2954).. (yes, the label is marked A2z even):
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/72606_front.jpg
The earliest ones don't have the inner white ring that most of them have..
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/74786.jpg
The later ones do..
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/76010_soundhole.jpg
etc etc. Here are the 28 records I have (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/list_mandolins.pl?a2z) on A2zs in the mandolin archive.
Jim Garber
Nov-01-2004, 6:01am
Actually, there are A2Z models that are stamped A.
I also have a black snakehead ca. 1924 with the inner white ring around the soundhole. It is also just stamped "A". Hard to tell what the serial number is because it looks like someone wrote over the original.
Jim
Darryl Wolfe
Nov-01-2004, 7:47am
QUOTE #mwhq @ Oct. 31 2004, 23:24)
"Actually, there are A2Z models that are stamped A." "I also have a black snakehead ca. 1924 with the inner white ring around the soundhole. It is also just stamped "A". Hard to tell what the serial number is because it looks like someone wrote over the original."
I have one like that too...stamped "A"..obviously an A2z or close facsimile...no black binding though
Jim Garber
Nov-01-2004, 8:02am
Here is mine. Strange anomaly: why would they mark these as "A" and not at least A2. The collective mind of Gibson worked in wonderful ways, eh?
Jim
Darryl Wolfe
Nov-01-2004, 8:15am
Mine..posted a couple slots back is 81547...making it 1925. It has the white celluloid binding with yellowed lacquer finish
I've always suspected in some ways that this is what happened to the A3 post 1922.. the interior white ring was an A3 feature.. maybe blonde replaced white (platinum blonde?). Why not keep using those tops, or the jig that cut those purfling rings, after all? The model labelling seemed to be a bit sloppy on anything A/A1/A2/A2z, they all can share ewach other's aspects.
Darryl Wolfe
Nov-01-2004, 8:22am
Agree...A3 was dropped from the line-up...the body is essentially an A3 (A3's had the white/black body binding too)...and the little A3 wreath inlay does not fit on a snakehead. #The blonde A2z I used to have (78965) was maple like most A3's. #BTW, the A2z does show up in one catalog entry only...so it was real for a while.
Any guesses as to what "Z" means or where they dreamed that one up?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif (I don't know)
You know, I think it isn't actually a wreath. or a seahorse.. here's an early one that looks *a little* like the later design..
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/3376_peghead.jpg
Actually, come to think of it, I'm not sure why I'm calling that an A3.. Frank did, but I didn't check the catalog. Same issue with F3s and whatnot, it's fairly subtle to pick them out. The little double fleur-de-lis on the pickguard of that one (which is, by the way, #3376 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?2577)) is similar to the inlay on the one I have listed as an F3..
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/3196top.jpg
That F3 is #3196 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?2952)
Darryl Wolfe
Nov-01-2004, 9:24am
wreath..as found on most A-3's
racuda
Nov-01-2004, 9:34am
Any guesses as to what "Z" means or where they dreamed that one up?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif #(I don't know)
I thought A2-Z was a pun, as in "from A to Z"
Racuda- that's the best explanation I've heard of it.
Ken Waltham
Nov-01-2004, 5:11pm
I am sure of that explaination. A to Z.
BTW, the inlay that Dan has posted is unlike any I have ever seen on any Gibson mandolin, or instrument of any kind. Even the script, " The Gibson" looks entirely wrong to me. Too fat, too flamboyantly fat... like a mix of 1930's with teens.
I am not sure that's real..... I don't think it is, never, ever, seen a bouquet of flowers as a Gibson inlay...
Any comments on that?
The inlay Darryl posted is the A3 inaly, early or late, natural or white finish.
Ken, here's the whole instrument (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?2577).. Frank Ford gave me those pictures. I actualy saw it in person, but not with enough of an eye for detail at the time.
It's certainly old enough to match the "wild experimentation" first couple years of the Gibson co..
That thick top..
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/3376_neck_joint.jpg
Is a lot like my 3-pointer..
http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/3_point_face.jpg
By the way, check out the a2z or a3-like white ring on the three pointer..
Charles Johnson
Nov-01-2004, 8:59pm
Its really hard to see the inner black binding ring on a black top mandolin, but I'll bet its there. Its usually easiest to see at the edge of the top where the usual armwear occurs.
Interesting speculation that they just used the A3 binding cutter for the soundhole ring. Makes sense to me. BTW I have seen a a factory original black top A3 with the wreath peghead inlay. Don't remember if it had a truss rod, but I think it was not. It was at the Orlando show a number of years ago. It wound up at Gruhns.
I think all of the oval hole mandolins were birch back and sides. Flamed birch can look a lot like maple. Wasn't the use of maple for the back and sides (like a violin) one of the innovations with the F5s?
Jim Garber
Nov-02-2004, 4:11am
Ken, here's the whole instrument (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?2577).
BTW I like the bridge on that 1905. Dan. do you know if it is original?
Jim
Darryl Wolfe
Nov-02-2004, 4:59am
Ken, the inlay that Dan posted is unquestionably original. It's just one of the much earlier variations. In fact I've posted that many times because I like it so much.
Charles, all of the A-4's are maple, most of the A-3's are maple and most A2z's are maple. I have several lower end A's that have maples sides and birch backs
Ken, what do you mean "I'm sure of the A to Z explanation"..I don't think I can subscribe to that.
Here's my 25 "A"/A2z, my 23 A2 and an early A1 with maple sides
FWIW, I have an A2Z very similar to Dan's middle photo (Without white innner ring). Only difference is the Gibson logo on mine has letters a bit narrower, more delicate looking. For the archives, S/N 74940, factory order number 11991. Can't tell if body wood is somewhat figured birch, or maple.
When I got it I called Julius Bellson (The Gibson Story) to ask if there was anything he could recall that would have contributed to the model's mojo. He denied there was anything in particular done; just regular factory production. He preferred his A4.
Darryl Wolfe
Nov-02-2004, 9:51am
Hey Bob A..speaking of differing logos, check out the inlay on my '25 A2 (left) compared to my '23. #I've only seen this smaller thin, delicate logo on one other A-model. #(The '25 A-4 in Frank Ford Museum page) Anyone else have one that sports this inlat pattern
Bob A
Nov-02-2004, 11:47am
Min'es not that short, Darryl, but the letters are cut at least as thin. I suppose each logo was cut by hand, and each will be slightly different.
Ken Waltham
Nov-02-2004, 1:02pm
Boy, I gotta dispute that part about all A4's, most A3's and A2Z's being maple. I've never had one.
Darryl; do you know of any other examples of that flower boquet inlay? I still question it...
Charles Johnson
Nov-04-2004, 7:30pm
Darryl, on page 260 of the Gruhn book he indicates under "contradictions to catalog" that from 1908 to the mid-1920s all mandolins were birch back and sides except the F4, F5, H4 and H5. Yes, Gruhn isn't always correct but he's done a lot of research on these - although so have you.
Might be a good question to get one of our tonewood suppliers in on. General question for the group - how do you tell the difference in birch and maple, anyway?
racuda
Nov-05-2004, 7:26am
My 1923 A2-Z definitely has birch back and sides.http://www.home.earthlink.net/~racuda/images/A2Z.jpg
Darryl Wolfe
Nov-05-2004, 11:00am
Oh Benny, you got me. #I guess I'm wrong. It appears that my comments are based on what I have seen and not necessarily what is the case. #It's fairly evident that most A's of all models are indeed birch. #However, I have seen and read alot about "the lower end A's being birch instead of maple. #The A2z I had was what I considered maple, and my A4 appears to be maple, but there are plenty of photos in mandolinarchive that are obviously birch on both of those models. #I can only offer the following pics that appear like maple to me
Darryl Wolfe
Nov-05-2004, 11:02am
another (A4)
Darryl Wolfe
Nov-05-2004, 11:04am
A2z
Darryl Wolfe
Nov-05-2004, 11:41am
Ken, no I do not know of any other examples like that A3 "flower". But, it certainly looks original and there are other examples of that The Gibson logo
Darryl Wolfe
Nov-06-2004, 9:10am
Spruce, can you help out here. Here is a real good example. I always thought that this was maple. Is it birch or maple http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif (photo borrowed from nice a4 example on ebay)
A4 on ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3760094525&rd=1)
Ken Waltham
Nov-06-2004, 2:07pm
I have had two or three F2's that were maple back. Just as Gruhn states i his book.
Darryl, you remember Loar's F2? That one had a maple back, but, for all the A's I have had, of every type, I cannot think of any that were maple, only birch. Sometimes birch displays grain, but not quite like maole. I personally think birch is a wonderful wood for tone, they always sound great!
Ken