Starting the Building Project. F5 Loar Copy

[craigtoo]

Hello Friends,

My friend is starting his first mando. #He's a violin builder over here in Vienna. #Will #post progress pics.

Here's the first of many questions...!

I bought all the (gorgeous) wood from Spruce, (thanks!!) and we made some density checks. #We're using Red Spruce for the top.

Here's what we got for density.
0.48 gr/cu. cm
or 29.9 lbs/cu ft

This seems too high for us, according to sources, (Siminoff book among others) we should shoot for about 28 lbs/cu ft.

Our goal is to reproduce the Loar sound. More of a mid to high frequency concentration in the sound. (am i contradicting my self here?)

Anyone know density of Loar Soundboards? Any of you built mandos with wood at about this density?

Spruce, did you calculate the density of that wood? Am I way off here?

Thanks for any help.
craig

[Brookside]

If you plan to reproduce the Loar sound I would suppose you have defined what the Loar sound is. There have been many discussions in the past regarding whether a person could pick out a Loar in a blind "taste test." I don't believe anyone ever suggested they could with any level of certainty. They don't all sound alike is the general consensus.

[Chris Baird]

I comes as no surprise that a violin builder will complain about the density of red spruce. It is a dense wood and does contribute to the Loar tone. Red spruce is generally about 25-30% heavier than englemann and 20% heavier than European spruces. I always weigh my tops just after they come off the duplicarver for the outside contour. Red spruce may not be a good violin wood but it works well for blue grass mandolins.

[Spruce]

Hi Craig...

Many fine Loar copies have been made from the tree I sent you, so I'd have at it with no reservations....

Did I send a mismatched set? #
Hope so, because after looking at a dozen Loars at IBMA recently, that trait seems to be a common thread in most of those instruments....

It's a very distinctive look, and, for all intents and purposes, is one that you will only see in a Loar...

"Our goal is to reproduce the Loar sound."

After playing all those Loars recently in a quiet hotel room (and also in noisy jams), and then playing good modern mandolins alongside them (Gils, Brocks, Sullivans, Montes, etc.), I think it's very apparent that the notion of what a classic F5 (Loar) should sound like has changed quite a bit over the years....

Especially on the low end response...

The Loars I played all had a very unique mid-range tone, but by no means matched the bass end "woof" that the modern makers seem to build into their instruments...

At IBMA I played 4 Brocks with a Loar thown in to confuse things for 3 "blindfolded" listeners (including Fletcher and the Loar owner), and nobody picked the Loar out of the bunch.

But to these ears and under my fingers, the Loar was obvious because of it's bass response (or lack thereof), and it's very distinctive mid-range honk...

It's a very good sounding Loar, BTW...

"Spruce, did you calculate the density of that wood? Am I way off here?"

I had a very interesting talk with Bill Collings recently about Red Spruce densities...

I've only milled about 25-30 Red Spruce trees (and only from one region--the Adirondacks), so I'm no expert on the species. #But my feeling was that Red Spruce was far more predictable in it's densities than, say, Engelmann or Sitka, which can vary all over the board.

Bill weighs each and every top on every mandolin that Collings puts his name on, and he assured me that Red can vary considerably in it's weights.

News to me...

I've always felt that Red was generally heavier than it's relatives, and that this was a generalization that could be made about the species. #I've only milled one tree (S5 for those of you keeping score) that was as light in weight as typical Engelmann.

But Bill assures me that the species commonly can be all over the board weight-wise, and he would know.

I haven't been Red Spruce hunting in over 10 years, and these conversations have really got me going again on the species. #
A wood-trip is in the cards...

[craigtoo]

Thanks!

craig

[craigtoo]

Spruce,
Oh yeah, you did send a mismatched set.. that's definetly planned..!

And nice wide grained Virzi wood too...!

[Will Kimble]

Interesting point Bruce, and something that I have been thinking about quite a bit lately. #We (builders, players, listeners) talk a lot about the "Loar" tone, but it seems that modern mandolins are evolving in a slightly different direction.

[Spruce]

That whole IBMA mando-experience was a real eye-opener (actually ear-opener) for me, with all the Loars mingling with the modern instruments in nice-sounding hotel rooms where you could really hear what the things sound like...

[Gail Hester]

Bruce, very interesting topic you’ve raised. I’m sure you could write a fantastic article on the subject. I couldn’t be at the IBMA but as I’ve read it’s amazing all of the Loars that showed up. I and everyone else would appreciate your opinions and perspective if you could elaborate on the Loars mingling with the modern instruments.

-Chuck Hester

[kudzugypsy]

so what is the theory on the mismatched loar tops? did loar feel he could "balance" the sound more that way, or was it just a random production by-product?

speaking of the modern sound vs the loar sound, i think it is more a matter of overall balance on the loar instruments, which over time have opened up the mid-range. although i have not played anywhere near the number that most here have played (or owned) they seemed to all be well balanced. the modern player is looking for more low-end and overall volume, (thus, the trend of X braced mandos) and that is why, imo, some that pick up loars say they "didnt do anything for me". remember, these were used in orchestras...i dont know it was ever promoted as a solo instrument. most players today probably wont admit it, but they are not looking for a perfectly balanced instrument.

i'll step off a cliff here to say that to me, the loars sound like refined f4's, more balanced, and with those sweet mids.

[Spruce]

"so what is the theory on the mismatched loar tops? did loar feel he could "balance" the sound more that way, or was it just a random production by-product?"

The whole thing smells like what would happen if you could only get 1" x 6" lumber, and had to do an end-to-end "bookmatch" to get a mandolin top. #Or, if you had a couple random pieces of Red Spruce, slap them together to make a top.
Check out John Reischmann's (and quite a few others I've seen recently) for an example of the latter...
(I'll post a pic of what this top looks like as soon as I can find the photo!)

Care was taken to select wood that had minimal run-out (there is run-out in many of those tops, but rarely is it extreme), and, interestingly enough, they were not that anal about selecting wood that was perfectly quartered.

In fact, a lot of those tops are quite a bit off-quarter, and have a very distinctive lack-of-medulary look to them. #
I didn't want to scrape the F-holes in someone's $100K mandolin to grok the grain orientation, but you could certainly see that some of them might as much as 10-15 degrees off quarter.

Unaccaptable by today's standards...

In an interesting note, I know of one well-known maker who has loosened his standards considerable and is using wood that is off-quarter with no apology whatsoever. #It does have a distinctive look...

The bottom line is that the folks who were putting together the Loars really wanted them to be constructed from Red Spruce, and were willing to use wood that was not perfect in a lot of ways, during a period when the typical A-model usually had well-quartered bookmatched (i.e. "perfect") wood.

To quote John Monteleone:

"I believe that Lloyd observed that it was more important to have two halves of superior cuts of spruce than it was to have them look perfect match, therby putting performance before beauty."

So true...

"Bruce, very interesting topic you’ve raised. #I’m sure you could write a fantastic article on the subject."

I'm really not qualified at all to spout opinions on Loar tone, but I sure feel like I did a crash course on Loar vs. Modern tone that week. #I wish I had lugged around my mini-disc to verify what I was hearing...

Also, what you are hearing when you are playing these things is very diffrent from what a listener 6 feet away is hearing.

In that way, those instruments are similar to what Strads are famous for--sounding strong in a larger hall....

[Spruce]

Here's a pic of Reischmann's Loar that I've tried to accentuate the grainlines on...

Notice the wider grain in the bass side, and the tighter grain in the treble side...

I've seen it the other way around, too....

This is a very common trait on a lot of the Loar tops....

I believe the top is off-quarter as well on the treble side...

[Darryl Wolfe]

Cool Spruce...here's another shot at mine. I think mine is slip matched...based on the slight evidence of runout

[Darryl Wolfe]

But sometimes, you can't see it at all

[Spruce]

Hmmm....

That top has that off-quarter look as well on both halves, Darryl....

Mind having a look in the F-holes?

[Tom C]

Can somebody explain off-quarter. I understand the runnout part.

[Spruce]

"Can somebody explain off-quarter. I understand the runnout part. "

Usually it's the other way around... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

On quarter looks like this in the F-hole: # #IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII

Off-quarter: #//////////////////////////////// # or sometimes even more extreme in it's "off-quarteredness".....

When it's off-quarter, the medularies ("silking") is non-existant, and the top almost has a "milky" look under varnish...

[Darryl Wolfe]

I'll take a closer look tonight...I'm pretty sure I've checked it and it's dead on the 1/4..but I've been wrong before...but that was when I thought I had lost my mind

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[craigtoo]

Well... howbout' a quick explanation on "run out" too Bruce...

Here's the next question...
If something is not perfectly quarter sawn...that means the "Pizza Slice" is not running perfectly parallel to the grain ... right?

Thanks to all for the great info!

craig

[timeoutlaw59]

So your saying if the grain is running crooked throught the f-holes that the cut was off??

[Darryl Wolfe]

looking at the end of the f-holes (the part nearest the peghead and the part nearest then tailpiece, the grain should be perfectly straight up and down to be "on the quarter" if it's tilted, is off...how much its tilted is how far off quarter it is.

Martin guitars are easy to tell with their big round sound hole and clear finish

This is perfectly quartered Red Spruce

[johnwilson]

That's a very strange Martin guitar you've got there Darryl. Most of mine were made in Pennsylvania.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Well..I didn't exactly say the pic was a Martin

see this thread

thread link (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=13;t=19439) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Spruce]

"Well... howbout' a quick explanation on "run out" too Bruce..."

Here's (http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/General/Glossary/Runout/runout.html) a great write-up by Frank Ford on run-out and what it is.....
These things are very hard to describe on paper, and he has done a great job of doing so...

"If something is not perfectly quarter sawn...that means the "Pizza Slice" is not running perfectly parallel to the grain ... right?"

Well, one reason that one mills "pizza slices" is to stay on-quarter at all times as one mills the log.
This is especially true when milling Red Spruce trees, as they tend to be on the small side. #
I'll post a pic at the bottom of this post of a typical Red Spruce tree being split out for mandolins....

In a 8' diameter Sitka, one can mill 10" thick lumber (or even thicker) that is perfectly quartered--hard to do in a Red Spruce..
I'll post a pic of a large spruce in a following post to show you what I'm talking about.....

Sometimes those "pizza slices" can be a bit off-quarter on one face, so you want to pick the face that is the closest to 90 degrees to the grain, and work to that face when resawing the billet into 2 pieces (if this has not been done already)...

"So your saying if the grain is running crooked throught the f-holes that the cut was off?? "

Yep...
It's a tad hard to detect in an F-holed mandolin, but easy (as Darryl has pointed out with that great pic of one of Wayne's guitars) in a flat-top guitar.

Start looking at old Martins and Gibsons and note how many of them are severly off-quarter. #Quite a few...

Today's woods that are used in factory guitar building are incredibly well-milled compared to most of the old tops. #I'm not patting myself on the back here (I rarely mill guitar tops), but am sending a shout out to companies like Pacific Rim Tonewoods who do such an excellent job milling tops.

Go into any guitar shop that sells Martins, Taylors, etc. and have a look at the tops...
Run-out is negligable, they are always on quarter, and rarely have flaws like color or pitch-pockets...

[Spruce]

Now here's a shot of a large Sitka log....

As you can imagine, it's would be a lot easier to stay on-quarter when splitting out a beast like this...

For you Monteleone owners with bearclaw Sitka tops, this is where your mando started out....

[Darryl Wolfe]

The silking /medulary (sp) rays that usually only show up when properly quartered

[Darryl Wolfe]

the rays form on most all wood cut on the quarter..Brazilian shown here. A very rare commodity today