Why Are Gilchrist and Dudes HIGHLY Prized?

[Nalapombu]

There are several makers that appear to be head and shoulders above the rest, 2 of them I mentioned above. #I don't mean to say that these are the only 2, I just don't know the other names.
From what I have read on here the Gilchrist and Dudenbostel mandos are not only highly sought after, but also compare with the BEST mandolins available at any price. #In no way am I suggesting that these guys don't deserve the priase and money they earn, I am just curious as to why they have achieved the staus they have.
Is it because their mandolins are played by popular and highly respected players? #Is it word of mouth from player to player? #Are they just better than everyone else? #What causes the almost reverential treatment of some mandolins and not other well known builders? #What are the BIG BOYS doing that the others aren't? #What do their mandolins have that the others don't, besides a HEFTY price and waiting time?
Thanks for the info.

Nala

[danb]

They're very nice http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[evanreilly]

That is typical Brit understatement from DanB; they are Very, Very, Very nice. And there are a lot like them old Loid Lure things.

[Bob A]

Mojo counts for a lot.

Put on a blindfold and have someone hand you a half dozen mandolins. See which one you like best. Buy that one, if you can. Then put some masking tape over the maker's name and go forth and make music.

I've been surprised by a lot of mandolins, myself. The ones I like the most are not always what I'd have expected. This can be a very pleasant surprise when it comes time to open the wallet. A good thing, too, because there's no way I can go into five figures for a mandolin.

[Michael Lewis]

The best mandolins have a completeness about them. They have the "sound", the feel, and the "look" that makes them complete. This is a very complex and precise set of variables that comes together to make the great instrument. I have chased this rather elusive concept for many years, as have most other makers. It takes a dozen instruments or so to get near to the level of detail work that is required, and maybe another dozen or two to get near the sound. By carefully measuring parts of great instruments one can reproduce shapes like the neck, which has a great deal to do with the "feel" of the instrument. Once you think you have all the information it is your job to put everything together so it represents the best you can do, then after a few more mandos you might start to "get it" so that you can bring all the elements together within the focus and balance that produces a fine instrument. At this point one must reach deeply within and rise to the next level of control. This is where the great instruments come from and why they are rare and expensive.

You will seldom have any difficulty recognizing a great instrument, it will communicate with you as you play it (both sound and feel), and it will look wonderful when you gaze upon it. You will be smitten by it and fall in love if you let yourself. You will just know. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[addcourt]

Michael: #Well said--regards.

[POB]

While there are certain factors that are objective - quality of workmanship, materials, etc. - there's an awful lot of subjectivity involved too.

A few years ago a mando-playing friend of mine and myself were asked to play on an album by a singer who had served his time both as an Irish folk/traditional heavyweight and as a country singer/songwriter (the good kind, not the awful "Country'n'Irish" kind!). The album was an all-acoustic affair with mostly traditional musicians as the backup band.

My buddy plays mainly tradtional Irish mandolin and has some lovely Joe Foley instruments, all flat-tops. Since there was a country tinge to some of the songs, we figured it would be cool to try and get our hands on a good F or A style for some of the recording.

To cut a long story short, we got our hands on a Gilchrist, of all things. My wife drove us, our own instruments and the Gil to the recording session. We were all in reverential awe at having such an instrument in the car - it was worth approximately three times what the car was worth at the time, and there's not too many of them kicking around the West of Ireland.

But you know what - the Gil never made it onto the album. We just didn't "get" it. To our ears, the Foleys had "The Sound" and the Gil didn't. But that's not because it wasn't a great instrument - it was. It was because our ears were looking for a different version of "The Sound" and our playing style (well, my friend's style - I don't have one http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif ) would be quite different from the kind of playing style that F mandos are best suited for. Plus, we didn't really have much time to bond with the thing. If we had a week instead of a couple of days, we might have different opinion.

It's fun to be able to say we turned our noses up at such an expensive instrument, though.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[kudzugypsy]

they're so highly prized because there is no way to get one, (i'm speaking in the present, not for all you lucky folks who bought them back when they were $4500) short of paying a lot of money, or finding someone going through a divorce or "upgrading" to a 20's gibson, they rarely show up second hand. both builders have closed their lists, and there you have it, the seeds of the gil / dude / nugget, etc........lore.
i think that the cafe (and comando) helped spread the Dude reputation because right off the bench, people were saying really great things about those mandolins. see, years ago, you had to wait til festival time to find out about and play new mandolins, see who was touring with what, etc..now we have instant buzz (buzz is different from hype!) about a certain maker. on top of all that, both were able fairly early on to put their instruments into some major league players hands (and on record, and in front of our eyes).
but that is just part 1, the psychological aspect. there is also something about ANY great instrument that really is special. it just has that extra tonal range and response and "mojo".
its like hearing a good player take a break on "bluegrass breakdown", it sounds good, he nails it, but then listen to the FIRE in the original monroe version........thats the difference that makes some stand out above the others.

[Samando]

I think probably the main reason Dudes are so popular, (not to belittle Lynn's craftmanship in any way) is that Thile is playing them. I mean, you've got folks out there trying to copy the way Thile dresses, his stage persona, and playing styles... so why wouldn't you have people (and MANY people) wanting to play the same brand of mando as him? Or, if they couldn't afford one, at least drive all their friends, family and neighbors insane with talking about "The Dude" all the day long?

lol, but that is just my two cents worth. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Bradley]

IMHO, the availablity has alot to do with the prices of the mandolins.Its the old supply versus demand thing from High School Economics.And of course the Thile recognition hasnt hurt Dude either

There are many others that deserve the respect that these 2 makers are receiving.I am a big Gibson Nut, but has anyone played a Heiden MAndolin...my Lord them things are nice!!
You also have Apitius,Collings,Brentrup,and .......

For the money Dude and Gil are getting you could have any 3 of any of the other makers products, who I must say are all Awesome instruments adn will last the average player a lifetime

[Tim]

To say "supply and demand" is stating the obvious. #The question is what is driving the demand for these instruments. #The completness described above has to be there. #I would guess that there are a few really good builders that no one outside their region knows about (and only the few mandolin players in the region knows about). #The key for the demand is for the instrument to get recognition by either 1) marketing 2) famous players 3) word of mouth.

[kudzugypsy]

as far as gilchrist, i think they started taking the lead after Adam Steffy began playing those mando's. it seemed during the 90's that whatever Steffy was playing was the HOT mando to have. i'm not sure of the correct order of ownership, but when he played a Tucker, everybody wanted those, when he switched to a Apidius, then they were all the rage, and when he went to a gil, they shot up even higher. as far as tucker and apidius, they went from people (outside the region) never hearing of them, to everyone tring to get a hold of one. when you get someone with a big name and following regularly playing and recording with a BRW or a Heiden, then you will see a bump in those too.
the history book of mandolin luthierie is far from closed.

[Darryl Wolfe]

I like Michaels answer...and, I do not think "who plays them" means a whole lot. There is a level of craftmanship, a look, a feel, and a balance of many factors that set these instruments aside from others. At one time when instruments of this caliber were not available, I often daydreamed about having mandolins made by commitee. Use the best person available for various portions of the construction and finishing stages, because nobody did it all "right". Those days are gone by the introduction of these "new" craftsmen who can essentially do it all.

[f5joe]

Sorry, I couldn't resist:

http://www.lilypix.com/photos/data/1f0e3dad99908345f7439f8ffabdffc4/65_p673.jpg

[ethanopia]

Gils and Dudes are not hype and in my opinion not about who plays them.

Sure a lot of great players have and still do play GIlchrists, and there is a certain star power there. But I think they play them because they sound just that good. Amazing Amazing Amazing! Thats all I can say

I spent a good deal time on the skeptical side of this argument, but after playing Dude #15 and about 6 Gilchrists which is not a lot. I believe!

[Darryl Wolfe]

I also meant to mention...and thanks to F5Joe I can now say with visual proof......Lynn started out on the right foot from the beginning. He had my and several other Loars as examples..and suceeded in getting it right from the start. Joes mando above is number 2. Both number 1 and 2 show very little "I'll get it better next time" when compared to Lynn's recent efforts.

[f5joe]

Darryl's right:

http://www.lilypix.com/photos/data/1f0e3dad99908345f7439f8ffabdffc4/full_65_p676.jpg

[danb]

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding about high-end stuff. People assume they are owned and played by rich folks as playthings.. that hasn't been my experience at all. The high-end stuff is often owned by people you would never expect, either who got in early, or who did a lot of horse trading to get what they were after.

I tend to try everything.. Took me around 2 hrs at Mandolin Bros yesterday to get out of one room.. but the stuff that is highly rated tends to impress lots of people. You could put it that way perhaps, and there is eventually a point that it snowballs beyond lots of individual good reviews. I've not yet played a Dude, but I sure want to try. TO my ear they sound the most like Jack Schultz's fern, so that's alright by me http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[mandoman4807]

This is amazing to me. 17 posts on the subject, and not a harsh word. IF THIS WAS ABOUT GIBSON, It would be a hole different story http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Why is that I wonder?


Darrell

[mandopete]

Just for fun http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Here's my latest list of high-end mandolin prices - compiled from the listings here on the classifieds:

Monteleone-Grand Artist (1996)-$25,000.00-7/20/2004
Gibson Master Model (2003)-$11,500.00-7/20/2004
Gilchrist Gilchrist model 3 # 93252 $23,500.00 7/20/2004
Monteleone Grand Artist (S/N 59) $24,000.00 7/21/2004
Gilchrist Gilchrist 96346 $23,500.00 7/26/2004
Gibson 1924 Lloyd Loar F-5 SN 76972 $130,000.00 7/30/2004
Gibson Master Model (2003) $9,750.00 8/5/2004
d'Angelico 1957 Double Cutaway $21,000.00 8/6/2004
Lewis 2002 M159JR $9,000.00 8/7/2004
Gilchrist 1989 F-5 S/N 0188 $23,500.00 8/7/2004
Gilchrist Model A S/N 94293 $16,000.00 8/7/2004
Nugget 1997 F-5 $25,000.00 8/14/2004
Gibson 1992 F-5L S/N 2485109 (blonde) $10,500.00 8/18/2004
Gibson Master Model (2002) $8,900.00 8/20/2004
Dudenbostel A-Model (2002) $17,000.00 8/22/2004
Gibson Master Model (2002 w/one piece back) $9,800.00 8/26/2004
Monteleone Grand Artist (S/N 103) $25,000.00 8/29/2004
Heiden F-5 Artist S/N F34 (1999) $15,000.00 9/5/2004
Gilchrist Model A S/N 03554 $16,000.00 9/6/2004
Monteleone Grand Artist (1990) $24,500.00 9/6/2004
Gibson Master Model (2003) $10,500.00 9/10/2004
Apitius F-5 Grand Classic $9,000.00 9/12/2004
Kimble F-5 (7/4/2004) $8,500.00 9/13/2004
Gilchrist F Model S/N 01499 $23,500.00 9/14/2004
Nugget F-5 S/N 246 $23,000.00 9/24/2004
Duff F-5 (2004) $10,000.00 9/27/2004
Gibson 1928 F-5 Fern (S/N 87367) $50,000.00 9/28/2004
Randy Wood F-5 (1998) $10,500.00 9/30/2004
Gilchrist F-5 S/N 96340 $24,000.00 10/5/2004
Gibson Fern Loar (Mar 31, 1924) $135,000.00 10/5/2004
Monteleone 1990 Grand Artist $24,000.00 10/15/2004
Gilchrist 1998 Model 5 (S/N 419) $25,000.00 10/17/2004
Nugget 1994 F-5 Standard $21,000.00 10/18/2004
Gibson F-5 Fern (1928) $25,000.00 10/19/2004
Monteleone F-5 $24,000.00 10/22/2004

[mandopete]

This is amazing to me. 17 posts on the subject, and not a harsh word. IF THIS WAS ABOUT GIBSON, It would be a hole different story. Why is that I wonder?


Darrell
Gibson's are relatively inexpensive compared to some of these litle jewels.

......I'm sure it must have something to do with the moderator, eh Dan?

[danb]

Mandoman- with one guy running the whole show, it's much harder to seperate the artisans from the corporation.. I think that's the answer to your question, albiet somewhat of an oblique one http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[kudzugypsy]

now darryl, it is a little ironic that you dont think "who" plays the mandolin has anything to do with its desirability......from a man with a July 9, 1923 lloyd loar http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

i'm in advertising, and see corporations spend millions of dollars on endorsers to get this psychological point across. dont think that there is nothing to this. over time the cream will always rise to the top, as has rightfully happened with the Gils / Dudes, but it is just human nature to desire what our heros play. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

btw, darryl, i had darby's castle on the old turntable last night. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[f5joe]

......... spin Day Break in Dixie. Good stuff.

[John Flynn]

I think there is a lot of misunderstanding about high-end stuff. People assume they are owned and played by rich folks as playthings..
Well, based on my experience, that assumption would have some validity. I went to an all day mando workshop with a household name player. In the workshop, there was a guy who brought two, count 'em two, Gilchrists and he could barely play. There was a guy with a Gibson Master Model and another guy who owned three Nuggets, one of which he brought. Both were decent intermediate players like me, but no great shakes. The really great players in the workshop were playing Weber Big Skys, F-5Ls, Flatirons and instruments on that level.

This workshop is just one example. I have seen this kind of thing in the guitar world lots of times. I also heard that for one of Gibson's recent "signature" models, I forget which one, the first instrument went to the guy the instrument was named for. The second went to that guy's accountant, who doesn't even play. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying there is anything wrong with all that. I am all for a free marketplace.

However, I do have to admit this: It may not be right, but I can't help it, it's just the way I feel. If a guy shows up with a $10K+ instrument and he can't play like he needs a $10K instrument, I won't say anything, but I will think to myself, "Bozo!"

[Tim]

Are there any instruments that are 1) as good as the ones named # 2) not played by any big names #3) #selling for a lot less? #If so, that would support the idea that you have to make a good mandolin but you also have to have some way for people to hear about it. #

How about Brentrup? #I've never seen/played one but they get the same level reviews as these other brands. #No one "famous" is playing them so they don't sell in the same price range.

Are there any famous players that play a small-shop instrument that isn't expensive?

I don't think anyone is suggesting that a famous user will make an average mandolin sell for these high prices. #But it seems likely that a famous user will be the price difference between two great mandolins.

[davestem]

Jimmy Gaudreau and Chris Thile: Rigel.
Rhonda Vincent (recently): Old Wave.

[Flowerpot]

"Are there any instruments that are 1) as good as the ones named..."

That's a very subjective question. I've never laid hands on a Dude, but I've played at least a half dozen Gils and three Monteleone's and a Nugget or two, and my answer would be yes, there are several builders making instruments of that caliber. You named one of them.

For me, for an instrument to make that grade, the fit and finish have to be flawless, the materials A+ grade, playability unsurpassed. Details should withstand scrutiny under a magnifier lens. Sound will vary from instrument to instrument even with the best builders, but some builders are able to achieve a tinge of "signature sound" that is built into their instruments, like the deep classic tone the Gilchrist x-bracing gives, or the super clear, balanced response up the neck of a Monteleone, as far as your fretting hand will take you, or the dry woody sound of a Nugget. Other bulders build their reputation from matching tonewoods to the musician's desires. But they all have to have volume, balance, and projection enough to cut a mic.

I agree with those who say endorsements make a huge difference in demand. About the time Gils started going way up, they were being played by Ronnie McCoury, Grisman, Mike Compton, and some others I can't remember. Dudes took off after the Great One latched on to his. Not that these mandos don't deserve the buzz, they do. But there are other top-tier single builder mandolins which are half to a third of the price of those, but which do not have the celebrity endorsements. To me, it doesn't matter that much who endorses what mandolin (except when it makes the price point go out of my reach, then it matters!). But the most important endorsement, the only one that counts, is your own. It's the golden age of mandolin building, so try out as many as you can, and get ahold of something that appeals to your own senses.

The great builders all have some things in common; they have studied the great historical instruments, they have devoted their lives and livelihood to their craft, creating musical works of art, they have built enough instruments to be very, very good at it. Past that, every builder is human, they have two hands, two eyes, and to ears, and there is no monopoly on skill or dedication.

[Tim]

Jimmy Gaudreau and Chris Thile: Rigel.
Rhonda Vincent (recently): Old Wave.
Gaudreau sold his Rigel, Thile moved on to the Dude. #I've never heard anyone say they want to pick like Rhonda.

But, my point is that there is demand for these instruments because they are both good and people have heard of them. #The famous players help but aren't sufficent to make the price go up. #Good quality alone won't make the price go up if no one hears about the builder.

[addcourt]

Mando Johnny: Given the situation with the Nugget or Gil owner not being an acomplished player, I say thank god the free market system is working and compliment him on his good taste. IMHO,of course. Regards, Mike

[Pete Martin]

I chose to go looking for a Gilchrist a few years back for one reason, SOUND. I had played about 20 and every one was stellar. Every one was a sound I could be very happy with and was what I wanted. Very consistent, all top notch in every detail.

I'd played a number of other mandos before deciding, including some great ones which weren't for sale. For each mando I liked, I played some others by that maker that were only average or worse, including a few Loars. Seeing every Gilchrist I played had the sound made it an easy decision.

[fatt-dad]

If a guy shows up with a $10K+ instrument and he can't play like he needs a $10K instrument, I won't say anything, but I will think to myself, "Bozo!"
If someone shows up at a picnic with an $800,000 baseball and can hit a home run, I will really say bozo! We think about the cost of mandolins, but did I hear yesterday that Mr. Bond's 700th home run baseball is on the auction block and is getting bids approaching one million dollars - whew!

(not to get off topic.)

f-d

[KTB]

Anyone know what Dude is selling his recently finished mandos for now?

[AeroJoe]

In the spirit of Flowerpot's post, suggest you look at Collings...His MF5's are incredible. For what you are getting at the (now) price of $7200, this is a steal in comparrison to what they sound like. Greg Boyd, on his site states something along the lines that they have the mature tones and sound like a mandolin that cost 3 times as much... "Nice sales tactic there, Greg," I thought at first... Boy, was I (very pleasantly) wrong!!! And the consistancy from mandolin to mandolin also makes a difference. You don't have do worry about getting one that does not sound as good as your friend's.

What he (Bill Collings) is doing is smart...he keeps his MF5 mandolins in their own niche...by this I mean, he varys them only slightly. Now and then he'll slip one in with a one piece back, varnish finish, or a blackface top but he does not tend to go outside the lines too much...I think that blonde one at IBMA was about as radical (if that is the apporpriate word) as he'll go. He's keeping them in a class by themselves...and that class is definitely climbing the ladder with every mandolin he completes.
I'll bet you a pack of J74's, that one day soon people will be wishing they could still get a new MF5 at $7200...

[mandopete]

I've never heard anyone say they want to pick like Rhonda.
Not for nothing Tim ol' buddy, but I think Rhonda sounded pretty damn good when I heard her this summer! I believe she was playing a Smith Creek mandolin too.

[SternART]

Michael Lewis hit it right IMO, very good points. A great instrument just has something special that makes you want to keep playing it, everything about it is just right, the sound, the feel, the craftsmanship. I think Pete Martin made a good point too, about all the Gils he played were "the" sound. I think that luthiers have a batting average. You can hit a homerun on your 1st mandolin. But was the next one as good? That is why the luthiers
with more experience & also blessed with talent, have a higher batting average, they have evolved a sense about creating instruments that is based on past experience. Even the best luthiers have made a few really special ones, that mystify even them, cause the one they built next to it didn't sound as good. Having a fine Dude, or Monteleone, or Gilchrist in your hands is very pleasurably......but there is a chance you can find a "special" one by an up & coming builder. Guys like Kimble, Smart,Lewis,or Heiden, Brock among many others.... their best instruments can be on a par with anyone......but a recent Gilchrist, from a man who has dedicated his life to building, has built well over 500 mandolins, you can be pretty confident it will be a stellar instrument. An artist like Monteleone, you get an incredible piece of art...jewelry woodworking...... that is also a tool to make music, it is like playing a sculpture....There are deals out there too, we are in an incredible era, with a lot of wonderful mandolins being built, a lot of newer builders coming up, a real renaissance in mandolin luthiery. Godd time to be a mandolin player.

[Big Joe]

Very few artists get any consideration from the major builders when it comes to endorsement deals. Gilchrist does not give them away and I don't believe many of the high end quality builders do. No one is spending millions in the mandolin industry for artists to endorse their product. There isn't that much money in the industry to be able to afford that. As I've said many times before, the artists play what works for them. It would not matter if it was free or they had to pay for it they will use the tool that does the job they want the way they want. A majority of the Gibson playing artists paid for their mandolins just like everyone else. Endorsements can help, but the real endorsement is when one buys your product and plays it because it is the one they want the most. Thank you.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Right on Big Joe......those who really play know what they want

[Tim]

I didn't say or even mean to imply that the artist uses a particular mandolin for any reason other than it is the best one - for them - that they can get/afford. #The question was what makes a few brands so highly sought after. #There are many factors, but getting a lot of people to even hear about the builder is a major factor and having a well known artist play it - by choice or via endorsement - is a big boost in getting people to hear about it. #Perhaps enough to be the one factor that explains the difference in $12K and $25K.

[grandmainger]

If a guy shows up with a $10K+ instrument and he can't play like he needs a $10K instrument, I won't say anything, but I will think to myself, "Bozo!"
Well, yes and no... I'm pretty sure not everybody with a sporty car can drive that vehicle like a racing driver. Living on your own in a big house, drinking a whole bottle of Latour 76, even though you can't really taste it correctly after the first glass, etc, etc. Sometimes I want stuff that's top of the line, just because it's nice to have it, looks, feels, plays, drives, etc.

If I could afford a $25K mando, I'd probably get one, even if I can't play to save my life.

Given the cash, wouldn't you too? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[cutbait2]

"artists play what works for them" i would agree, and assuming that's true make the "endorsement" (given by playing a makers mando) even more important to the success of builder. that said it's always been interesting to me to see the number of builders represented on stage at a typical BG festival. all sounding good.

[ethanopia]

I think we are getting a little off topic here.

I will say it again these mandolins are expensive and popular and desireable becasue they sound THAT good.

If they didn't sound good, the stars and notable players would not play them. Becasue generally speaking the big time players can really really play and really know what good mandolins should sound like.

[John Flynn]

As I said before that quote, I admit that reaction may not be right. But I know, because I've talked to people about it, that I am not the only one who reacts that way. I think a lot of players do.

However, even if I won the lottery, I would not run out and pay $25K for a mando. If I won the lottery, I'd quit my job, take lessons and practice all day until I could make a $5K mando sound like a $25K mando. I admit to having MAS, but my preference is to keep it more about the playing and less about the hardware. I also don't think that the most expensive is always the best. Some brands get a "buzz" in the markeplace that runs thier cost up higher than what would be accounted for by thier quality. I would prefer to find one of those builders, such as those mentioned above, who make comparable mandolins for a lot less. Then I could have the great mando and feel like I didn't waste a lot of money on a nameplate. I would spend thousands for tone and playability. I wouldn't spend a nickel for a trendy name.

[kudzugypsy]

after all this praise and discussion about the 2 main builders, i'm expecting to see an ad in the classifieds any day now for a $40,000 Gil / Dude.
i already have seen gil's f4/a4's going for far more than the originals....so whats holding the f5's at $25K?
dollar for dollar, tone for tone, at $130K+ for you know what, a $40K gil could be a bargain? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

i was lucky enough to get a nugget back when they were GASP!!....$2200 NEW (1989), great instrument, but i'd take my paganoni over it in an instant if it came down to owning one mando. there ya go, i said it, sound matters over name.

[mandopete]

I think that luthiers have a batting average. You can hit a homerun on your 1st mandolin. #But was the next one as good? #That is why the luthiers with more experience & also blessed with talent, have a higher batting average, they have evolved a sense about creating instruments that is based on past experience. #
...and you bring a good point too Art. #It's the consistency of these builders that draw the high prices. #Luthiers such Gilchrist and Dudenbostel can build very consistent high-quality mandolins. #That experience, that craftsmanship, that artistry, is what demands the prices they get for their work/art.

We now see builders such as Collings taking this notion of consistency to new a level within the "production" environment (by that I mean a more mass produced mandolin). #And as that happens, those prices may go up as well.

I think the trick (if there is one) may be to try to find a luthier "on the rise". #In that way one may be able to purchase and instrument of comparable quality to a Gilchrist or a Dudenbostel at a fraction of the cost. #Here's my simple-minded short list....

Jim Hillburn
Fletcher Brock

#http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[Bob DeVellis]

I think POB made a good point that's been overlooked. I agree that the big name instruments really do "sound that good," at least the ones I've gotten close enough to hear or play. But another part of the picture is that they sound the way people have come to expect a mandolin to sound for certain types of music. Lloyd Loar went to a lot of trouble getting a license for Virzis. But Bill didn't have one and most players today prefer the sound of a Loar without one. Was Lloyd wrong? Was Bill wrong? Was POB wrong preferring a FOley for Irish trad? I'd say "no" in all three cases. The majority of mandolinists on this board (and I don't mean this as a put down at all, guys and gals) and probably the majority of players in the United States, are locked into a certain paradigm. They expect a certain sound. The "big names" not only produce great mandolins, but ones that fit the expectations people have, based on the prevailing preference. Other makers make great mandolins that are a bit apart from the paradigm. Those are the mandolins that are still an incredible value. Eugene and others hav talked at length about the fact that really great bowlbacks are amazingly undervalued, despite their prices having crept up. Gibson F-4's are also escalating in price but still, I believe, undervalued. Dave Cohen's instruments are undervalued in my estimation, as are early Martins. Why? Each (IMO) is a really fine instrument but each is a bit off of the predominant paradigm. To someone wanting the Monroe Sound, an instrument that has less of "that sound" is considered less good. Fair enough. From that player's perspective, that's exactly right. But another player might actually find the departure from "that sound" the very thing that makes a different mandolin special. Here's where POB's point comes in. I totally agree that certain Celtic-style instruments just sound dead-on right for certain types of music in the same way that a Gibson Master Model sounds dead-on right for bluegrass. Before the birth of bluegrass, a Loar Gibson was just any old mandolin (well, maybe not quite, but almost). It's the quality of build, sound, feel, appearance and fit with the prevailing paradigm that really determine price/value. This means that iconic instruments that are nearly perfect examples of that prevailing taste will command huge prices while instruments that favor a different tonal mix will be undervalued. Just my 2 cents.

[cutbait2]

ethan, i think you missed my point and that is "the stars" aren't all playing gilchrists. if you surveyed most mando pickers at any given bg fest you'd probably find gibson the most played in terms of numbers. i polled all of the acts at a major spring BG fest this past spring and there were no gils represented. the best sounding mando (to my ears) was a relatively new builder from NC the second was another little known builder from colorado with similar name. so the answer to the original questions are yes, yes, yes. gils are up there because alot of them are good, they are played a couple real good pickers. there's other builders out there whose gotten little press but have the potential to jump into the big league with the right endorsement.

[Peakbagr]

I fit into a number of categories here. I'm a life-long guitar player who started playing mandolin relatively short time ago compared to most folks around here. Compared to most readers here, I'm terrible.

I also saved up for a long time and bought a custom mandolin that based on my playing ability, I would have no right to ever play. I worked hard for that instrument. I didn't use the money on cigarettes, Nascar tickets, fancy vacations or a big truck or SUV. The mandolin, a Brentrup V23, is a work of art that also sounds wonderful (to my newcomer ears).
I waited a long time for it, and most of its life will be spent being played in my home. Guess what, though...when it does go out, I surely won't worry what some "Bozo" who judges people by appearances thinks when I chunk along at a jam and hand it around to others who want to play it.

[Hubert Angaiak]

This is a good discussion. My track in getting an instrument is something I can grow into or if I decided to sell someone will want it, be very happy to have paid the price of buying it from me. When I decided to learn the mandolin I thought I could get a used quality mando at a price half of a new one. Well I fell off my chair. I eventually got a '14 F2, still have it and love it. Then eventually got a Nug. I really love the tone and how it plays and it begs to be played. But, I've met better players who basically have called me a Bozo by their body language and attitude during festivals. So, I'm thinking of not bringing it to the festivals since it causes so much commotion. I got it because its a quality instrument and I like the way it sounds and I wanted to stop looking for a mandolin. I think first its the sound and playbilty and then how its put together, players notice and begin ordering. A good experience for me was last August when a mando player wanted to try my Nug... he was impressed with the sound and playabilty and didn't recognize the name that he didn't treat it like some holy relic.

[addcourt]

And I say to Peakbagr--thank god for the free market system and a great choice in mando selection. #And to Mandopete--let's keep Jim's name off the "watch the luthier" list until AFTER I lock in my price. #This is a great thread!

[cutbait2]

Bob; i who say you are correct,except that, i will offer the opinion that Gil is departing from the Loar tone and leading a move to the "modern tone" or maybe "popular tone". second there are a number of very very good builders who approximate or better the Loar and the Gil tone whose instruments are not in the Gil price category;

Peak and Hubert: what you've experienced is called envy and i wouldn't worry about it

Have a great weekend everybody. Jam time!

[kudzugypsy]

this has been a great thread, with a lot of interesting commentary. plus, now that it seems certain people are banished from the cafe (ie the gibson bashing duo), it stayed fairly civil.

this thread has been of dual interest to me, because like i posted earlier, i am in advertising, and it is always the big $64 million dollar question of:
given 2 (or 3,etc.) "equal" products, what makes a person spend 2-3x as much on brand X as they could on brand Y. as i have stated, its my opinion that "buzz" (once again, DIFFERENT from "hype"!) along with getting the product seen and heard, is the big reason. to illustrate, if gilcrhrist had never moved to nashville in the late 70's, yet continued to refine his craft in australia, then i doubt we would be having this discussion...because few, outside of the region would even know about him.....also, as a side note, Lynn would not have bought that gilchrist from gruhns and been inspired to build one just as good.

just as hubert mentioned, not all muscians are tuned into the whole "who's who" of mandolin lutherie. there are people who dont read bluegrass unlimited, or mandolin mag, or the cafe message boards. for them to know who a maker is that is clear across the country (or world) is just not going to happen....unless their favorite artist is playing one. you cant go down to the local music store and try out a gil or dude (or even gibson it seems) so the only way for a maker to get their name out there is to get their instruments into highly visiable situations, have people talking about them, and create a productive buzz. when all that falls into place, people will pay more for that brand.

to big joe @ gibson, although i never stated gibson's mandolin division was spending millions on product endorsements, i can almost guarantee you that the umbrella corp (gibson, epi, etc) is far over 7 figures in endorsments along the entire product line (strings, amps, guitars....). those rockers arent just posing with $299 epiphones in every guitar mag because "thats the instrument that suits their style". kids see that and want one.

thats it, great thread! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[mandolooter]

I only read the first post but my thoughts are, they are just a few of our love's top builders and if ya can afford em, GREAT! I can't but I still got a world class mando for just a tenth of $25,000.00 + shipping. In ten or 15 years that list will be a LOT bigger is my guess...only time will tell! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Gary S]

I cant speak for a wide variety of mandolins but will speak towards my personel experience.
More than 4 years ago a local luthier reccomended Gilchrist as some of the best mandolins being made. A short time latter I got my name on his waiting list. 4 years latter(this spring) I received my model 5. Part of me was almost hoping I wouldnt be blown away by it so as that I might sell it for a large profit.
If my Gilchrist is any indication of his quality then he deserves all the accolades he receives.The workmanship is impeccable,the playability extremely easy, and the tone surpasses my highest expectations.
I will be enjoying playing my Gilchrist mandolin for a long long time...Gary

[Tim]

It is interesting that this replies on this thread split between people who answered as if the question was "Are those brands worth it" when other tried to answer "Of the really great brands, what makes the price difference".

[Bob Sayers]

Dan Beimborn mentioned earlier in this thread that he spent a day at Mandolin Brothers. What did you see of interest, Dan?

Bob

[Harry H]

I've got a '97 Gil 'F' w/ Adirondack and tone bars that I ordered new. I've been watching this thread for a few days, trying to see if I could add anything of value. I doubt it, but here goes:

RECORDING:
I recorded three cuts for some young friends with a jam band who were trying to put some bluegrass content on what I would consider an Allman Bros-esque rock album. My mando was out of town, I hadn't played much in a few months and I had two hours notice. I borrowed
a friend's Gilchrist A (adirondack, tone bars), played scales and chords for an hour, then recorded the first song. I came back a week later with fresh strings and recorded the other two songs. We used #a $1000 condenser mic through an okay preamp into some kind of digital machine-thingie.

The verdict? My solos were weak, but the mando sounded great, really, really great.
The chordal work killed and the tone of the single string stuff was fine. My thirty year old
friends were happy (see, I told you they were young!) and, since every thing was in the key of
G, they still think I'm a good musician!

PLAYING A GILCHRIST:
I play the Gil because it sounds so wonderful you can just fall into the music.
It looks pretty good, too. I hope I can play it for another 20 or 30 years, 'break it in' right and pass it on to the next player.
It's not the only cool sounding mando in the world. I've played a Loar that was a revelation,
plus good Nuggets, Monteleones, Gibson F and A models and Lyon & Healey Style As,
but in the final analysis, I owe a big debt to Steve Gilchrist. It's a thrill to own one of his mandos!

BUT, OWNING A GILCHRIST......
happens to be a drag because they cost so much to replace. I don't know about the other 500
Gil owners, but I can't afford to do that. When you take it to a jam, some people react in a funny way because they know what it's worth and the focus becomes 'that instrument' instead of 'that music'. Also, I've had plenty of #well-lubricated friends scratch up my guitars; ain't gonna happen with my Gil, so it doesn't get out often.
If you're going to own a Gil, you might need a 'throw-down mando' to go out with. I can't begin
to tell you how excited my wife is about that concept.

I BOUGHT A GIL....
because, like a lot of people, #I wanted the best mando I could afford. #I bought a used Gil A with an Engelmann top and X braces about 10 years ago for two grand. It sounded good but wasn't quite what I wanted, plus the neck was so small that it made my fingers hurt. I played a Loar a few months later, dug the Adirondack and ordered a Gil with the same top and bracing. I sold the A for the down payment and ordered a Mod 5 (F) with a big neck.

THE MORAL IS.....
Well, I'm not sure. I never, ever thought that Gil prices would go up 3 or 4 times. I just wanted a good mando. I didn't want to lose much if I decided I didn't like it and back then the market research said,
'Gilchrist'.

Oh, I know what the moral is! There are more good builders now
than there were 10 years ago, plus, every time one of these folks carves a new one, it's probably a little better than the last one.
So, the standard is higher than it used to be and it's getting better
all the time.

Buy a good mando from a custom builder; get exactly what you
want. You play it for 10 years and make money on it when you sell it, because over time, the mando market will continue to grow and
there will be a demand for what you have.

That's what I think. Thanks for reading and I hope it didn't stray
too far off the thread.
HH

[evanreilly]

For what it is worth, I know several Loar owners who have ordered/obtained Gilchrist mandolins as their 'everyday' mandolins because they consider them to be the closest instruments to the early 20's Gibson mandolins.
I have played a whole bunch of Loars, several Gilchrist and a few Dudenbostel mandolins. There is now doubt that the new instuments from Steven G. and Lynn D. are the equals of their earlier counterparts. And, furthermore, their workmanship in their detailing of their instruments very often far exceeds the earlier Gibsons.

[odeman]

Being human, and with all of the variables that go into building an elite-level mandolin, I'm wondering what happens when a finished instrument doesn't measure up to the high standards of the builder. Do they scrap them and start over or just sell them on the open market without their prestigious name engraved in the peghead?

[Mandomusic]

Odeman, great question.

Some of Steven Gilchrist's earlier mandolins went through the bandsaw and his first mandolin is being kept within the family -- never to see the light of day. #Additionally, five of Steve's first 30 mandolins are "experimental." #They never made it to the market. #

In recent years, Steve has not had to send any through the bandsaw. #This is to be expected after building 578 instruments.

Lynn Dudenbostel owns his first mandolin. #It is an amazing instrument for a first attempt.

Best Regards,

Mark Daly

[mandolooter]

Harry H, great comments about your Gil! Everything you said rang of truth and experience, not hype. I bought a Givens based on 5 or 6 I personally heard, 3 of which I actually got to pick for a while, and a lot of favorable comment here and other places. I love it and to my ear its a winner. I've compared it to a lot of mando's...mostly out of curiosity, cuz Im keeping it for the duration, and also to see if the "Givens reputation" stood up to the test. Soundwise it does, playability wise its lacking a tad but maybe a pro set-up vs. mine would help there. The prices just haven't skyrocketed like the Gil's, Dudes etc but I think thats due to a lot of variables, a few of which were his craftmanship being geared more towards sound than appearance and his early demise. Some of the ones I've seem are a little rough around the edges, i.e. plain jane woods, finish flaws etc. Mine has bandsaw marks that don't look to ever have been touched by a piece of sandpaper on the neck extension that goes over the soundboard under the fretboard which I doubt you'd find on any mandolin nowadays. I've only picked one Gilchrist and that for only about 5 minutes when the owner seen my Givens and wanted to try it. I was impressed and recieved favorable comments from the Gil owner who was light-years ahead of me in playing skills. I picked Scott T.'s Dude at Wintergrass and was really impressed with it...one of the best sounding mando's I've ever heard. I liked it better than Reichmans Loar but I didn't get to pick that. (Darn!)

Now to go read what everyone else said! I have a bad habit of starting at the end of a thread if it's over a page long, making a post THEN going back and reading the rest.

[mandolooter]

Harry H, great comments about your Gil! #Everything you said rang of truth and experience, not hype. #I bought a Givens based on 5 or 6 I personally heard, 3 of which I actually got to pick for a while, and a lot of favorable comment here and other places. I love it and to my ear its a winner. #I've compared it to a lot of mando's...mostly out of curiosity, cuz Im keeping it for the duration, and also to see if the "Givens reputation" stood up to the test. Soundwise it does, playability wise its lacking a tad but maybe a pro set-up vs. mine would help there. The prices just haven't skyrocketed like the Gil's, Dudes etc but I think thats due to a lot of variables, a few of which were his craftmanship being geared more towards sound than appearance and his early demise. #Some of the ones I've seem are a little rough around the edges, i.e. plain jane woods, finish flaws etc. #Mine has bandsaw marks that don't look to ever have been touched by a piece of sandpaper on the neck extension that goes over the soundboard under the fretboard which I doubt you'd find on any mandolin nowadays. #I've only picked one Gilchrist and that for only about 5 minutes when the owner seen my Givens and wanted to try it. #I was impressed and recieved favorable comments from the Gil owner who was light-years ahead of me in playing skills but my ears work fine. I picked Scott T.'s Dude at Wintergrass and was really impressed with it...one of the best sounding mando's I've ever heard. #I liked it better than Reichmans Loar but I didn't get to pick that. (Darn!) #

Now to go read what everyone else said! I have a bad habit of starting at the end of a thread if it's over a page long, making a post THEN going back and reading the rest.

[Hubert Angaiak]

I've been thinking about this and why I bought the mandolin I have. Taking away the category of best players use best instrumnets, maybe we'll hopefully hit somewhere. The demand brings the price up and I can see if you are a one or a small shop you want control over how many instruments you can handle and be able to control quality. Although these are luthiers, I would call them Artists and they consistantly come up with great works of art. But, it also has great tone and feel along with being a great work of art. Where I'm from there are many carvers.. in wood, ivory, etc but you can tell the difference between them because the great carvers that are on top of their craft really stand out. Maybe a great mandolin builder puts a soul in his mandos.. who knows. Whether you're a player or not you hear the difference between the instruments. You also have to remember the luthier because despite the price of the mando, that when it is finished that you really love his mando and you want to play it all the time... that is the best compliment you can give him. Some people feel mass produced products are cold since they are precisely the same and the small shop pieces are personal and warm.

Sorry if I'm rehashing what others have said.

[Yonkle]

Loid Lure? Is he that guy from Gibson who makes Crappie Jigs that look like mandolins?

[evanreilly]

Yo, Yonk:
This is my Loid Lure...<G>

[mandolooter]

I need one of those for next weekends steelhead fishing trip...my pickin next to the river has done nuthing but scare the other folks a little futher down river! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Vincent]

"Dudes took off after the Great One latched on to his..." Not true. Lynn's waitlist was quickly growing before Chris borrowed and started playing #5. Sure, having Thile playing your instrument helps, having some good mando-list buzz helps, but in the end, the guys who command top prices are building instruments that people who play them want. And are willing to pay the price. (duh!) : )