View Full Version : Suggestions for Developing a Bluegrass Mandolin Method
Hello Good People
I would like to develop a complete beginning mandolin method incorporating the benefits of spaced repetition technology. I am trying to decide on and prioritize content. I would like to include 10 songs.
I am going to assume baseline knowledge of reading tab, but the materials will be in standard notation as well. I might even have a standard notation only version, to help those who want to learn to sight read avoid "wandering eye syndrome". I will also assume users know how to hold their instrument and pick.
So my questions are:
Where can if find 10 songs in Tabledit format that I can use for free, and what ten songs should I pick? My criteria is that they should be standards and encompass a variety of techniques and keys.
What are the techniques, skill, knowledge that a beginner must master, prioritized by order of importance.
Are there any specific exercises that you can direct me to that would be good to incorporate?
Thank you for your input.
Mike Bunting
Jan-10-2011, 1:49pm
Is this for your personal use?
1. Go to a tabledit site and find the ones you want.
2. Ear training.
SincereCorgi
Jan-10-2011, 2:48pm
This strikes me as a conceptually difficult question since, in my understanding, most 'bluegrass mandolin' is about embellishing freely and elaborately over relatively simple melodies. I guess you could get some of the note-for-note transcriptions and then chop them up and use them sort of like etudes?
Not for personal use. Hoping to make millions in the mandolin education market.
Is everything on those tab sites necessarily "free"? I understand that a lot of them are receiving cease and desist orders.
Mike Bunting
Jan-10-2011, 4:27pm
Is everything on those tab sites necessarily "free"? I understand that a lot of them are receiving cease and desist orders.
Check them out and see.
I understand that they are free to download, but I don't know whether they are actually someone else's intellectual property.
Mike Bunting
Jan-10-2011, 5:32pm
If you make your millions, will we all get a cut for providing the information you are seeking here.
Sure. IF I make millions. Otherwise you will have to settle for an affordable, efficient method for learning bluegrass mandolin, custom designed for the needs of Café members.
Mike Bunting
Jan-10-2011, 6:08pm
Judging by the OP, it will be written by 'cafe members.
Charlieshafer
Jan-10-2011, 6:12pm
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure if you don't want to end up in court facing a whole lotta hurt, you need to take public domain songs, and do all the transcriptions and tabs yourself. If there's a known author, forget it. And if there's no known author, check it twice, or better yet, three times. Bluegrass is tough that way, as most true bluegrass songs have been written relatively recently, and thus are not in the public domain. That's why there are so many old-time or Celtic methods; all old tunes.
Judging by the OP, it will be written by 'café members.
Shhhh! ANYBODY could steal these suggestions and make millions! Let's just keep this between you and me.:whistling:
Philphool
Jan-10-2011, 7:50pm
Forgive me if I'm presumptuous, but since there are numerous "methods" on the market, if you know something new about how to develop a method, why not just do it? Then tell us all about it.
You are not being presumptuous at all. I am happy to share.
If you look at the post here (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?56384-Adventures-in-Super-Efficient-Mandolin-Practice), or the social group here (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/group.php?groupid=193), you will get some idea of the approach I am interested in using. You can also go here (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=45110&query=retrieval) and here (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=45202&query=retrieval)to find out about some free demo items I have offered to Café members. I have been experimenting with this method, known as "spaced repetition", for over a year now. I think others might find it beneficial.
The downside of this method is that it is somewhat technical and time-consuming to set up a well-designed system. While I am not a great mandolin player, I do have a lot of training and experience in education, so I know how to structure learning materials, and I have gotten pretty good with the technical skills necessary for this project. So I figured: why not do it?
It is really just a matter of finding out what the members would like to learn, and putting it into a system that will help people learn more quickly.
If you would like to know more, respond to my classified ads, and I will send you the free demos.
Finally, whether I do this project or not, wouldn't a thread of "things you should know and where to find them" be good for everyone?
Seems to me if you were qualified to write such a book, you would have the answers to your questions. That's usually the course for such how to books. If you have not spent a lot time developing a pedagogy it's hard to see how you could successfully build one out of thin air, Cafe help notwithstanding.
Start teaching, learn what works and what doesn't, learn how to use tabedit so you can write your own versions of copyright free traditional tuness and, in a decade or so, write your book.
It does not necessarily follow that asking questions indicates ignorance.
Mike Bunting
Jan-10-2011, 11:29pm
Not necessarily.
Zing!:disbelief:
Mike, I take it that you do not wish to contribute any suggestions regarding content for a beginning bluegrass method. Perhaps you can find another thread that interests you.
Philphool
Jan-11-2011, 6:53am
You are not being presumptuous at all. I am happy to share.
...... I am not a great mandolin player, I do have a lot of training and experience in education,......
JonZ,
I DO have some interest in becoming a "great mandolin player". If someone were to follow your "system", do you have an estimate of how long it would take to become a "great mandolin player"? Have you any data on such??
This project is more about helping people with the basics.
Did you want to contribute any ideas?
Wow - what's with the negativity? I don't have anything to add - but certainly applaud your project. Don't let these guys bring you down JonZ.
pickloser
Jan-11-2011, 10:08am
I think Jon doesn't always put things in such a way that would minimize the blowback he gets. (Understatement award to me, please.) But I am bound to add that his ideas about spaced repetition's applicability to learning the mandolin have been helping me progress.
A while back, he provided the wherewithal (for free and with no glory gained) for me to use his Anki approach to learning, giving me special help, since I am nearly computer illiterate. As I suspected I would, I had trouble maintaining the system to keep up with my progress. Eventually, I was using "cards" for one task to stand in for a different task, and keeping a handwritten key, until it became unmanageable.
Anyway, I am now using the basic idea of spaced repetition and the sense I got from Jon's deck of how long a "learning unit" should be, and how the "units" should be spaced in a more free form, non-computer dependent fashion. Prior to my JonZ-prompted and assisted experience, I took the "beat it into submission" approach to skill acquisition and working thru pieces of music, since it had served me well learning to play the piano, the flute, and the guitar. I used to drill anything that was difficult for me relentlessly, until I got it or I ran out of time. Weekly lessons with assigned pieces and drills to be learned as well as possible for the next lesson led me to this approach, and it does indeed work. But it is not as (huge sigh) efficient as I have found the repetition of smaller bits over time approach. Spaced repetition is also less stressful, since one has lowered expectations for perceived improvement during a single practice session.
I am using this approach now with selections from the Complete Jethro Burns book, the Mandolin Picker's Guide to BG Improvisation, and Getting into Jazz Mandolin. I am also drilling licks and patterns of my own devising. My "chunks" are bigger than Jon's were, and I think I repeat things for longer than his deck had me do it, but it is a definitely different approach than I was using. I think I am improving faster because of it.
I acknowledge that my assessment of my own progress may be wrong, my personal experience is not a controlled scientific experiment, and YMMV.
foldedpath
Jan-11-2011, 11:50am
Wow - what's with the negativity? I don't have anything to add - but certainly applaud your project. Don't let these guys bring you down JonZ.
Well, the OP states that this is a commercial project, and yet he's asking for "free Tabs" which other people have created, and "specific exercises that you can direct me to that would be good to incorporate?"
I know of some great exercises like the ones in Mike Marshall's books and DVD's, but that's intellectual property, protected by copyright. Every resource I can think of that's been helpful to me, in terms of exercises, is also copyrighted (by legal definition via publication, if not formally registered).
It sounds like the OP just doesn't want to do the work to develop Tabs and exercises himself, as the authors of every mandolin method have done. That's why he's getting blowback instead of help (IMO). His question #2 is more generic, and the kind of thing the Cafe' members could probably help with, if the other questions weren't raising red flags.
To be fair, it might just be a failure of communication, where he's asking for examples to see how others approach this sort of thing, and isn't actually looking to lift the material wholesale. But that's not the impression given by the wording in the original post.
Alex Orr
Jan-11-2011, 11:54am
Well, the OP states that this is a commercial project.
Yeah, I think this is where the red flags went up as well. If this was just for personal use and was an idea for something to be given away, I don't think the hostility would be the same.
Wow - what's with the negativity? I don't have anything to add - but certainly applaud your project. Don't let these guys bring you down JonZ.
I would agree, IF he asked a simple question with a straightforward and unselfish intent, but the fact that he openly suggests he's crowd sourcing our ideas for a product he intends to create and sell may cross a bit of a line.
That being said, part of the intent of his question does interest me. As someone who's just started taking lessons after several years of self-teaching I'm curious as to how music teachers go about teaching? How do you measure progress? How do you decide on what exercises to assign? How much flexibility do you incorporate? Do you primarily have one method you use or is each student a unique project? Do you even think about the student much between lessons?
I have been honest about what I am trying to do. I'm totally crowd-sourcing. If people want to be crowd-sourced, they can contribute. Others can opt out.
I think it is pretty safe to assume that, like most people "working" in music, my day job will continue to cover the bills, and the time I put into this project will not be fully compensated by what I earn from it.
So here is what I think a beginning bluegrass player should learn:
Picking--Down stroke, up/down stroke, tremolo, cross picking patterns, chopping
Chords--All major and minor chop chords typically used in bluegrass.
Scales--This is one I am not sure about yet. I am thinking of either building from chord tones or pentatonic up to full major scales. Also blues scale. Perhaps movable scale patterns.
Double Stops
Ten Songs--As I said, free songs in different keys.
None of this is top secret information. These are just basic ideas. Perhaps you have some more suggestions. I want to teach people the basics of playing bluegrass in a manner that will move them along quickly and keep them from getting discouraged.
By the way, things like picking patterns, fingering patterns, scales and arpeggios do not become someone's intellectual property just because they put them in a book. For example, many of Mike Marshall's exercises are based on mathematical permutations of picking and fingering combinations. You can create these patterns with the right formula and a spreadsheet, as I did on my picking program sample. I could not scan his images, but no one owns this type of information. Aonzo scales, Tim O'Brien arpeggios, FFCP, etc. likewise are not intellectual property. There is not enough creativity in them.
The problem is that people get frustrated trying to integrate all of this information into something they can use in their playing. I would like to try to solve that problem.
And finally, Pickloser, I thought you were going to say something about how I have been trying extra hard to be nice lately.:grin:
(Oh, and if crowd-sourcing is against the board guidelines, then I was just kidding about the commercial stuff.)
foldedpath
Jan-12-2011, 11:54am
I have been honest about what I am trying to do. I'm totally crowd-sourcing. If people want to be crowd-sourced, they can contribute. Others can opt out.
You're asking for pointers to "specific exercises that you can direct me to that would be good to incorporate?", which involves a third party. The concept of "Opt Out" doesn't apply there, and this is not what Crowd Sourcing means. You have to contact that third party for permission, if you're going to use that material wholesale.
By the way, things like picking patterns, fingering patterns, scales and arpeggios do not become someone's intellectual property just because they put them in a book.
No, you're wrong about this. The particular expression of those picking and fingering patterns in a book is certainly intellectual property protected by law. I strongly suggest you study up on copyright law, the fair use clause, and maybe hire a copyright attorney, before liberally copying the work of someone else for your project.
To reiterate: there is nothing wrong with "crowd sourcing" if people want to directly contribute their own unique ideas, exercises, etc. But crowd sourcing doesn't mean you can just lift and aggregate information from anywhere. If you want to "crowd source" Mike Marshall's work, I suggest you contact him for permission.
P.S. I made a living selling (and renting the use of) my copyrighted work. Those of us who have been on that side of the fence, tend to be a little touchy about these issues.
;)
Mike Bunting
Jan-12-2011, 12:42pm
You're asking for pointers to "specific exercises that you can direct me to that would be good to incorporate?", which involves a third party. The concept of "Opt Out" doesn't apply there, and this is not what Crowd Sourcing means. You have to contact that third party for permission, if you're going to use that material wholesale.
No, you're wrong about this. The particular expression of those picking and fingering patterns in a book is certainly intellectual property protected by law. I strongly suggest you study up on copyright law, the fair use clause, and maybe hire a copyright attorney, before liberally copying the work of someone else for your project.
To reiterate: there is nothing wrong with "crowd sourcing" if people want to directly contribute their own unique ideas, exercises, etc. But crowd sourcing doesn't mean you can just lift and aggregate information from anywhere. If you want to "crowd source" Mike Marshall's work, I suggest you contact him for permission.
P.S. I made a living selling (and renting the use of) my copyrighted work. Those of us who have been on that side of the fence, tend to be a little touchy about these issues.
;)
What is "crowd sourcing", is that corporate speak? I always thought that "source" was a noun , not a verb.
You must have skipped over the part where I said "I could not scan his images, but no one owns this type of information". If that is not clear enough, I will elaborate. I cannot reproduce Mike's book, or directly copy his materials, but I can share, or sell exercises that I create myself containing the same information. No one can say "I own the rights to every possible picking pattern because I published the first book." Look at the multiple chord and scale books available. I have researched the copy write laws, and know this to be true. It could be argued that the O'Brien arpeggios consist of melodies that are unique creations, but I doubt it meets the legal definition for copy write. Still I would check it with the legal department before using it.
I am asking people to direct me to third party sources, but that is for reference only. I will produce my own text and graphics.
Though it would not be required, I would also direct people to the original sources of the materials. Most of them are things that people have put on the internet to promote their own projects. I posted some FFCP materials on the Anki download site, and posted an announcement on his social group. They actually incorporate Ted's images, but I offer them for free and direct people to his site. I assume that he offered them for free so that people would find them and come to his site.
Mike Bunting
Jan-12-2011, 1:00pm
To reiterate: there is nothing wrong with "crowd sourcing" if people want to directly contribute their own unique ideas, exercises, etc. But crowd sourcing doesn't mean you can just lift and aggregate information from anywhere. If you want to "crowd source" Mike Marshall's work, I suggest you contact him for permission.
P.S. I made a living selling (and renting the use of) my copyrighted work. Those of us who have been on that side of the fence, tend to be a little touchy about these issues.
;)
What is "crowd sourcing", new corporate speak? I remember when "source" was a noun.
foldedpath
Jan-12-2011, 1:07pm
BTW, to clarify something in that last post (and head off the "you can't copyright a scale" argument)... yes, it's true that you can't copyright a scale or arpeggio.
:)
However, good method books do far more than that. They present a series of scales, arpeggios, fingering patterns etc. in a logical progression, and with text to help the player understand how things work. In some cases like Marshall's "finger busters," the fingerings may be original and not just simple scales, but it's the overall context that's valuable, not the individual exercise.
If you lift a large enough chunk of this information to be worth anything as a teaching method (without bothering to create the method from scratch, yourself), then you're probably violating copyright. If you're just lifting fingering patterns at random, then nobody will buy your method book, because it won't make sense or help the player when it's ripped out of its intended context. A little creative "re-write" of the accompanying text for exercises won't fly, either.
This project will present information in a substantially unique way.
Man, Sarah Palin didn't get vetted this thoroughly!
Chip Booth
Jan-12-2011, 2:00pm
Man, Sarah Palin didn't get vetted this thoroughly!
Well, see how that turned out! (Sorry, moderators, please don't ban me :grin:)
stonefingers
Jan-12-2011, 2:39pm
Wow! For a minute there I thought I stumbled onto a Soap Opera chat site....
Cabbagehead
Jan-12-2011, 2:39pm
I was thinking about downloading a bunch of FREE songs and burning cds to sell for 100 bucks a piece, any ideas of tunes to put on there? :))
Rick Cadger
Jan-12-2011, 2:51pm
Jon, as you say, you have been honest about what you have in mind. Well, that's a start. Unfortunately, just because you are up-front about your plans doesn't mean that people are going to like them.
It may be that you don't express things as clearly as you think you do, or it may be a failure on my part to correctly process what you write, but the gist seems to be that you want people to point you to a whole course worth of material which has been devised through the hard graft of others. You then want to collect this material, present it differently enough to avoid copyright problems, and then sell it for profit. If I have all of that right then, with respect, I have to say that your proposal does not engage my enthusiasm.
There are many good mandolin learning aids for sale; many by bona fide experts and popular mandolin heroes. I do not begrudge the money I spend on their items from Mel Bay, Homespun etc. They share the insights and experience of successful, popular players. Sam Bush, Chris Thile, the late Butch B, all present their own thoughts and material. They don't trawl the web for other people's work to recycle.
If you are expert enough to be preparing learning aids for beginners then IMHO you should be able to prepare your own original material.
Forgive me if this sounds negative and hostile to your project. I don't intent to be mean. That said, I moderate on several music forums, and have seen many a dust up over suggestions which were, on the face of it, similar to yours. Even in the peaceful world of the 'ukulele it has happened.
There's just something about this kind of thing that seems to rub people the wrong way.
But we can never have too much good tutorial material. Newbies love it. So, seriously, why not put your own experience to work (yes, WORK) and prepare something original based upon your own knowledge and experience? No one would resent that. I'm sure people here would happily give suggestions and feedback - I certainly would. I think you'd find such a project would find more support than the one you currently describe.
But then, as I said, this whole thing could just be me misreading your intentions... If so, I apologise.
Scott Holt
Jan-12-2011, 2:55pm
Crowdsourcing is the act of outsourcing tasks, traditionally performed by an employee or contractor, to an undefined, large group of people or community (a crowd), through an open call.
per Wikipedia.
Cabbage, you are too funny.
Kudos to you JonZ for remaining so steadfast and civilized through out this thread. It seems JonZ has a unique method for teaching/learning irrespective of the subject matter and he wants to apply it to the mandolin learning process. I have a better idea ;)
I don't think you need to steal anything. Why not demonstrate how your process can make quick(er) work out of playing scales, then play them in thirds, fourths etc. How your process can make quicker work out of learning arpeggios. How your method helps to memorize some well know melodies in short(er) order.
Keep it standard notation and non instrument and non genre specific then you can maybe really sell some.
Rick Cadger--
Good questions.
I am researching a topic. I will be including materials form many sources. I am probably already familiar with most of the materials that people will suggest. What I am really interested in is what people feel would be the most helpful for learning bluegrass.
All of this musical pedagogy existed before the authors you are concerned about included them in their materials. This is stuff that they saw in books, or were shown by a teacher, or maybe they obtained the information (gasp!) for free--from a library, or off the internet, or from a friend. They packaged it in their own way. No one is going off to a cave and teaching for 10 years, using only material that they have created. Anyone who is doing this type of project will want to review as much of what is out there as possible, and then pick and choose and present it as they see fit. The notion that any method out there sprung fully formed from the author's head is ridiculous. How many bluegrass method books have you seen with Bile Dem Cabbage Down? Who is stealing form whom?
A lot of people seem to be concerned about my qualifications. I have a Masters Degree in education, and several years of teaching experience with teenagers who had learning and emotional disabilities. I have successfully taught many subjects to people who others had failed to teach, and I was not an expert in any of those subjects. It has been demonstrated that the best classroom teachers are those with the best teaching skills, not the ones with the most knowledge of the subject matter. There are more skilled players out their than me, but most of them do not have as broad of a foundation in teaching as I do. I do not begrudge all of the mandolin players out there calling themselves teachers who do not have the "proper educational credentials". In the end credentials don't matter. A method will either succeed or fail on its merits. If you only want to buy materials from famous people, that is your choice.
If you read all of the intro to bluegrass mandolin books out there, you will find more similarities between them than differences. I am departing from the book approach, and my method will be nonlinear. It will contain many familiar concepts (who do I have to pay to use the G chord?), but it will be delivered in a way that is completely new. It will take a great deal of planning and preparation, so you needn't worry about me just selling other people's repackaged ideas.
I think some of the negativity comes from jealousy. It "sounds" easy. Like Cabbagehead says, just copy free stuff and sell it. But clearly the material is out there, and if it were as easy to do it as Cabbagehead suggests, everyone would do it. There are reasons that everyone doesn't, and it is not because of Forum Nannies scolding and hand wringing.
(By the way, I own the term "Forum Nanny". No one else gets to use it unless they pay.):cool:
Some people just can't stand the thought that someone else is attempting something original, and God forbid that some of the "mandolin teaching experts" weighing in might have to rethink their approach.
Alex Orr
Jan-12-2011, 4:37pm
This is stuff that they saw in books, or were shown by a teacher, or maybe they obtained the information (gasp!) for free--from a library, or off the internet, or from a friend. They packaged it in their own way. No one is going off to a cave and teaching for 10 years, using only material that they have created. Anyone who is doing this type of project will want to review as much of what is out there as possible, and then pick and choose and present it as they see fit. The notion that any method out there sprung fully formed from the author's head is ridiculous. How many bluegrass method books have you seen with Bile Dem Cabbage Down? Who is stealing form whom?
The point, is, those folks who prepared the book more than likely wrote their own break for Bile Dem Cabbage Down (no matter how simple the tune is) rather than pulling it off a website. The same would be true of other stuff used in an instructional piece. Butch Baldassari has bluegrass mandolin instructional material, so does Matt Glaser, and both feature simple breaks to common tunes, and my guess is that all that stuff did indeed spring fully formed from their heads. That's what accomplished players do when they prepare instructional materials - they draw on their own expertise of the instrument to create their own exercises and versions of songs. Sure, no one owns the G scale, but instructional materials go far beyond public domain stuff like that.
I do go back to the idea of the methodology though, because as I said in my previous post, I do think it's interesting to find out what kinds of things music instructors have done that have worked best for their students, and what kinds of things both students and teachers see as having failed.
I don't think any of the negativity this thread has generated comes from jealousy, but instead from you asking us to help you prepare a product that you will the (possibly) attempt to sell back to us. I think if from the start you said this was going to be a project that you wanted to undertake purely out of curiosity about teaching music and then give away for free you would have had far less hostility directed your way. I do think your remark about jealousy will also result in a lot more hostility.
Just from a practical business standpoint, it should also be noted that no one knows who you are in the mandolin world; you have never taught mandolin, recorded extensively, nor made a name for yourself as a performer. How do you plan on selling this system? If you're really serious about this you would need to pair with a respected music publisher, music instructor, or bluegrass mandolin player for anyone to even consider buying it...or quickly win an IBMA award and tear up the festival circuit so that folks would want you to teach them bluegrass mandolin. In terms of profit margins, there really aren't enough beginning bluegrass mandolin players willing to buy a system from someone who has never taught, toured, or played professionally for you to make squat on this thing. If the idea interests you so much that you simply want to do it no matter what, I'd think you're best bet would be to offer it for free.
It has yet to be determined if I will be writing my own breaks. If I feel a public domain song meets my needs without alteration, I will use it. If you feel like you need to learn Butch Baldisari's break from Bile Dem Cabbage Down to become an effective mandolin player, you will buy his materials instead of mine. I have no intention of stealing intellectual property.
Yes, I am asking you to help me prepare a product that I will sell back to you--I have been clear about that form the beginning. However, I will be adding value to it with my unique methodology. If I don't add value, you can simply refer to this thread and glean the same information for yourself, bypassing my product all together. Regardless of what I do with it, this thread will accomplish what a good thread should--helping people learn. That is where I think the jealousy comes in. This is all information that people would normally provide freely, but because I was honest and said I was going to develop a product from it, it is has become matter of grave concern for some.
As I said, people can opt out. I don't understand those who feel the need to police this thread. There is no great conspiracy to uncover here. The irony is that, as you said, there is a very small possibility of me making money from this, and a certainty that the information in this thread, if it ever addresses the OP, would benefit many members. But people are all worked up over that tiny chance that I might make a little money, when the greater likelihood is that I will release it for free, as I have done with the other items I have produced.
I am passionate about this idea. I realize that it is a high risk venture. However, the internet is changing many of the ground rules of publishing, and I think many of your suppositions no longer apply.
There is only one way to find out.
Mike Bunting
Jan-12-2011, 6:38pm
Crowdsourcing is the act of outsourcing tasks, traditionally performed by an employee or contractor, to an undefined, large group of people or community (a crowd), through an open call.
per Wikipedia.
The question was really about the use of a noun as a verb, a modern linguistic sacrilege.
That's why I said "Google it."
Get it?:))
Kudos to you JonZ for remaining so steadfast and civilized through out this thread. It seems JonZ has a unique method for teaching/learning irrespective of the subject matter and he wants to apply it to the mandolin learning process. I have a better idea ;)
I don't think you need to steal anything. Why not demonstrate how your process can make quick(er) work out of playing scales, then play them in thirds, fourths etc. How your process can make quicker work out of learning arpeggios. How your method helps to memorize some well know melodies in short(er) order.
Keep it standard notation and non instrument and non genre specific then you can maybe really sell some.
Thank you Perry--I missed your comment earlier, but that is more or less what I intend to do. Like I said, I am just doing my research. I do intend to do some instrument specific modules, though. Some people just gotta have tab. I also want to include some repertoire, so people can understand how to use this method for learning tunes.
I have made four modules available. About 100 people requested my last one. But I haven't got much feedback yet. People would still be pretty early on in the "program".
I have shown my prototype to two famous musicians (one of them well known to Café members). One said "This is exactly how people should practice". The other said "Do you think that professional musicians have a mental gift that allows them to think this way?
Like Pickloser said, I have made posts that have ruffled peoples' feathers. I am trying to tell people that I disagree with them in a more polite way, but I can't say I always succeed. It is gratifying to know that I am doing a good enough job for someone to notice.
Rick Cadger
Jan-12-2011, 10:31pm
Thanks for the clarification, Jon. I'm now quite confident that I understand you.
I could question the validity of your suggestion that people who have reservations about your plan are motivated by resentment and envy. I could question your assessment of the work of other well known mandolin instructors. I suspect either would be a pointless exercise.
I'm afraid I'll be unable to help you with your project, so I'll get out of your thread.
Have a good day.
Rick, you are right, it is presumptuous for me, or anyone else, to judge other people's motivations based on limited information. If people have concerns about my post, they may very well be the result of my initial failure to clearly express my intentions. I should not ascribe base motivations to their concerns, although some of those concerns could have been expressed more politely.
flatpickle
Jan-13-2011, 9:40am
Hi, JonZ. Any tab that you download or find printed in a book will be copyrighted. Even if the song is in the public domain, the arrangement is the intellectual property of the writer from the moment it was recorded in a fixed medium (written down or TablEdited or whatnot). While it seems unlikely that the writers of these tabs of public domain tunes would sue you for use of their arrangement, it IS possible. I recommend using tunes that are in the public domain, and arranging them yourself. This is not difficult at all. Probably less than two hours per tune (for beginner-level arrangements) once you become familiar with whatever software you use.
I know that's kind of a bummer, but it's the safest way to go.
Edit: There is an exception. If you use an arrangement that was written prior to 1923, that would be in the public domain and available to be copied. However, I don't think that there are many songs which are typically played in bluegrass circles that were arranged for mandolin prior to 1923. An overview of when works pass into the public domain is available here (http://www.unc.edu/~unclng/public-d.htm).
Some public domain tunes to consider for inclusion:
Instrumental--Billy in the Low Ground, Blackberry Blossom, Cuckoo's Nest, Flowers of Edinburgh, Forked Deer, Grey Eagle, Kitchen Girl, Leather Britches, Old Joe Clark, Over the Waterfall, Red Haired Boy, Red Wing, Sally Goodin, Soldier's Joy, Turkey in the Straw, Under the Double Eagle.
Vocal--Angelina Baker, Are You from Dixie, Home Sweet Home, Standing in the Need of Prayer, The Old Rugged Cross, The Old Spinning Wheel, Whiskey Before Breakfast.
It seems like there are many more instrumental public domain tunes in the bluegrass canon than there are vocal tunes.
That would explain why you see those tunes in nearly every tune book, and why most bluegrass tune books actually contain old time tunes. I would estimate that the various "arrangements" you see of the basic tune are more than 95% identical, unless they include breaks by the authors, or advanced versions, like Kaufman's stuff.
I do plan to produce my own tabs/scores. Thank you for pointing out that resource.
flatpickle
Jan-13-2011, 11:03am
It would be a big can of worms to open up, but you could try to be the exception--contact the publishers and negotiate permission to include non-public-domain bluegrass tunes that you're more likely to really hear from a bluegrass band, or at a bluegrass jam.
Nelson Peddycoart
Jan-13-2011, 11:16am
Whenever I see a post started by JonZ, I take a quick look at it to see who he's trying to stir up, then move on.
I am losing interest in even knowing that much.
AlanN
Jan-13-2011, 11:25am
In my rather vast musical score/book collection, collected from 34+ years of mandolin fanaticism, I probably have 1/2 dozen versions of Billy In The Lowground, from the picks/pens of Mark O'Connor, Joe Carr, John McGann, others. They're all different (yet the same). Not sure what benefit another version of BITL will be to the pickers out there, but hey, go for it!
I am getting the feeling that it might be best to stay clear of repetoire, and focus on the skills and knowledge needed for improvisation. On the other hand, I would be using a different approach to teaching songs, and using them as examples for using a different approach to learning any song.