another flight from hell

[billkilpatrick]

picked this up on a violin related site:

http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=18909

... regardless of where we're going, next time we plan a trip by air, why don't we leave our beloved instruments at home and carry a sacrificial uke' instead - the cheaper the better. ukulele's are always fun and if - by chance - you're hassled at check-in you can simply say "why don't you keep it" and let the airlines deal with a stockpile of abandoned ukes.

... maybe the children of airport security/check-in staff will benefit and we'll have created a musical enemy from within.

[billkilpatrick]

... plus - on a practical note - the media is more likely to pick up on the extortionary practices of the airline industry if a humble uke' is the subject at hand. (if traveling with kids, let them carry it.)

[Jim Ferguson]

Heh Bill.......I used to travel to-from Alaska frequently & took my Gibson F-9 with me onboard every time. I refused to put my instrument's well-being in the hands of the baggage handlers. One of my friends in Alaska checked his Alvarez mando as baggage shortly after getting the instrument as a gift & when he went to get it after arriving at his destination.....you guessed it.....BROKEN!!!!!!! With the way the airlines are going (baggage fees, ###### food, etc) I won't be surprised if/when certain airlines "stick it to the mandolin player" & refuse to let us bring our mandos onboard as carryon luggage. I simply will not travel on those carriers or will have to get a cheap travel mando or simply not take the instrument I guess. I left my mando at home on my last trip to Alaska a couple of months back & it was the LONGEST 3 weeks of my life up there with no mando pickin to keep me sane...:-)
Peace,
Jim

[billkilpatrick]

gouging the hapless mandolin/fiddle ... what ever ... player appears to be a new source of revenue for the airlines - what i'm proposing is a shameful - damning! - stockpile of ukuleles in every airport.

[Ed Goist]

What if one wears the mandolin (on the strap) onto the plane?...Not really much bigger than a laptop. Just check the case, and 'wear' the mandolin...I wonder what they'd say/do?

[hank]

Hey Bill. Happy Thanksgiving way over there on the other side. Maybe we need a list of instrument unfriendly airlines here. An airline blacklist of sorts. If we could transform the emotional energy to Capitalism.

[journeybear]

Can they charge you after the fact? That is, after you've carried it on and they discover you have an outsize item in your possession. I think the length dimension is usually what exceeds the limit, even if the combined length and girth is within the limit, and yes, may even be less than some luggage.

[Tim2723]

Except for the professional player en-route to a contractual agreement, I've never once understood this business about taking an instrument along for the trip.

[bratsche]

Last time I flew with an instrument was in 2006; last time I flew without one was last March. On the way home, I had to check my carry-on bag because I couldn't make it fit the way they wanted it to in their "size container". Oh, I could make it fit, all right - by unzipping one of the external compartments halfway off and folding it back against the side of the main bag - but when I easily demonstrated that, the airline woman then claimed it was now "two bags" and no longer just one (WTH?) It was such a hassle, I can't imagine what would have happened if it had been an instrument. And now, if the new so-called "security" foolishness the TSA have in place continues, I won't put up with that, so I'm pretty sure my flying days are behind me.

My elderly parents really enjoyed me playing my mandola for them in '06. I'm resigning myself to the fact that I'll have to drive the 1200 miles alone to see them the next time I go. But at least that way I can take the mandola.

bratsche

[journeybear]

Wouldn't it be nice if there were the musical instrument equivalent of the yellow bicycle, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_sharing_system) so people wouldn't have to worry about this stuff? They could just pick up a beater or even a decent instrument at a designated repository upon their arrival and leave it back at the depot when it's time to continue their travels. When I rule the world, this will be the law of the land.

[Ivan Kelsall]

Quote - " Nevermind the fact that a single violin in a typical case is smaller in overall volume than most carryons and easily fits in the overhead bins.". A point i've made every time when posting on this subject. When will this blind adherance to an outmoded set of rules ever end ??. The 'allowed volume' of a carry on case is twice the volume of either of my Mandolin cases. But because they are overlength by 6",they can't be taken on board any Aircraft flying from the UK to Ireland. I can't decide whether it's madness or sheer bloody mindedness on the part of the Airlines. I do know that they are losing so much cash,that they tell you that can buy a ticket to allow you to take an instrument on board - in the case of flying to Ireland,a mere,£79.00 UK ( $119.00 US).
Personally,i think that the ONLY way that this could be resolved in a common sense way,is to get the governing bodies,(in the UK the CAA & in the USA the FAA) who make the rules, to re-examine them & to try to bring some sense into them.
Maybe the help of our 'local' politicians could be enlisted,after all,they're supposed to be there to represent us,
Ivan:mad:

[Bertram Henze]

... maybe the children of airport security/check-in staff will benefit and we'll have created a musical enemy from within.

Yep, Chinese saying: If thine enemy wrong thee, buy each of his children a drum

[Dagger Gordon]

Made a trip to London recently. Took my Sobell 10 string mandolin on board without any problem at all, and it's a larger than usual mandolin and case. Indeed one security person commented that they loved the mandolin. Just make sure you don't have ANY other hand luggage at all and I would say you're unlikely to have much trouble.

Check-in stuff, on the other hand, is a different matter. My friend has a silver case which people have sometimes thought was a gun case, but actually contains two fiddles. It went missing on the way home, and took two days to (thankfully) reappear. He maybe should get another case, but that's another story.

"I've never once understood this business about taking an instrument along for the trip. "

No? Seems quite obvious to me. You have your instrument to play for your own enjoyment, learn some new music, have a jam at parties, good way to meet people etc etc etc. I much prefer travelling with my mandolin, and nearly always do.

[Charles Johnson]

Personally,i think that the ONLY way that this could be resolved in a common sense way,is to get the governing bodies,(in the UK the CAA & in the USA the FAA) who make the rules, to re-examine them & to try to bring some sense into them.


Odd - few people use "common sense" and "governing bodies"in the same sentence. They are mutually incompatible.

Mandolin content - there was a copy of a letter posted somewhere here a few years ago where the FAA specifically allowed instruments as carry-ons. I suspect the hassle lies more with the carrier, not the FAA or the TSA goons.

[Markus]

Odd - few people use "common sense" and "governing bodies"in the same sentence. They are mutually incompatible.

Mandolin content - there was a copy of a letter posted somewhere here a few years ago where the FAA specifically allowed instruments as carry-ons. I suspect the hassle lies more with the carrier, not the FAA or the TSA goons.

Take your anti-government rant elsewhere.

You might think the TSA are goons and government sucks ... but please don't bring that to the mandolin board that I enjoy so much.

[Markus]

FWIW, I carried my mandolin on commuter jets and then larger jets to and from Phoenix during the last week.

With a 2.5 year old and my wife. 3 carry-ons and a diaper bag, along with a car seat for the kid to sit in during the plane ride.

Not a hitch. The only times they asked for gate-check we surrendered one bag [2.5 year old wasn't carrying anything, but had a seat] and they didn't bat an eye at having us each keep one.

Sure wouldn't count on it easy to do Sunday ... and every airline is different, but I just took a 50 seater today without a hitch with child etc in tow as well [we were far from invisible]. Perhaps that helped ... but we were asked to gate check every time others were, but not one single time did ANYONE suggest I hand over the mandolin. It was always the other bags [if you're not travelling alone]

[DPrager]

C'mon, sure some people have rare problem of carrying a mandolin on a plane. Anecdotally, it sure seems that this an extremely rare occurrence. I fly frequently (8 - 12 legs/month) and rarely do I get on a plane where there isn't at least one other person carrying an instrument. Only one time have I ever witnessed an incident about an instrument. This guy walks into the business section of a plane with a cello. He wants it in the vacant seat next to him and the attendant refuses. Wild claims flew about the cabin regarding the value of this cello, everyone heard the entire discussion.

Let's find out if this is an issue or not. How many folks here have ever had a problem with a mandolin and if so how many times over how many flights. I wonder if it happens even as often as one might hear these frightful words while flying "Uh, Folks....we have slight situation and we'll be making an unscheduled landing...."

Personal editorial:
Only three rules should apply to carry on items:
1. Limit the number (done).
2. If you get in the plane and it doesn't fit in the overhead, you pay double for checking it.
3. If you can't lift it into the bin, check it.

[Mike Bunting]

Take your anti-government rant elsewhere.

You might think the TSA are goons and government sucks ... but please don't bring that to the mandolin board that I enjoy so much.

I've seen far worse rants on this list. Perhaps you should let the moderators moderate the list.

[journeybear]

Really! That may have been a bit of a cheap shot, on a par with the old "oxymoron" "army intelligence," but it was a joke, pal, not an anti-government rant. Please!

[Ivan Kelsall]

Having read so many posts on this subject in the past,it would seem that being allowed to carry your instrument on board or not,depends upon the particular airline,& possibly even more,where you are ie. in the USA. I flew to the US last time in 1992 with American Airlines.I took my Banjo in it's case on board & stowed it in one of the central stowage holds in the main fuselage. I was also allowed to take it on board when i flew from Chicago down to Nashville, on a light,50 seater aircraft.
Coming back,my Banjo was in an even bigger case,a Mark Leaf,that i'd bought. I was allowed to take that on board & place it in the baggage bin & there was plenty of room to spare.
I wouldn't care to try the same thing in the UK however,especially at this time. It maybe down to the luck of the draw. As i've said before,all you need is some over-zealous ticket clerk & you're stuffed !!. It's in the baggage hold with it's attendant risk of breakage,or you go home.
The whole business re.the 'allowable' size is ridiculous !. It should be about allowable 'total volume',after all,it's volume that the instrument takes up,the length is just one part of the whole. Would you be allowed to take on a wooden batton,1/2 " x 1/2" x L" + 6" (6" overlength) ?. Under the current ruling,you wouldn't be,because it's overlength - how completely insane is that ?!,
Ivan

[billkilpatrick]

insane? ... maybe - i'm beginning to think it's more method than madness - a "fleece the folks" type of thing in an effort to make musicians stump up for the price of an extra seat. being confronted at check-in with the choice of either paying for another ticket or consigning your mandolin's fate to baggage handlers or calling the whole thing off and going home sounds like a loose/loose/loose situation for you and win/win/win for the airlines.

[Markus]

Really! That may have been a bit of a cheap shot, on a par with the old "oxymoron" "army intelligence," but it was a joke, pal, not an anti-government rant. Please!

Army intelligence is an inside joke. No one here would stand for a knock against the military direct or perceived, and rightly so.

After enough swipes at your wife's profession in government, where she does amazing work ... one gets sick of it. Yes, I'm over-sensitive to it ... but in my defense, I don't see what it has to do with airlines and baggage.

No one is reporting issues with the any government agent.

In fact, the only branch we deal with in this case [the TSA] were good enough to post a PDF with official letterhead that we can print declaring that we are allowed to bring instruments on board.

When compared to the poor information provided by the airlines regarding musical instruments [many of which seem to deliberately avoid listing anything definitive to avoid the issue], the security end of things couldn't be easier and actually has stated policy.

Few airlines have anything more than a `we get to make the call' statement. When I weighed the risks of travelling with a mandolin, the airlines were 100% of the issue.

I was happy to have a copy of US Airways printed regulations in my pocket yesterday clearly defining that instruments under 75" that can fit are allowed on the plane - but noticed American Airlines both avoided the issue entirely or and seemed to be moving in the direction that bill suggests. And a print off the website is a far cry from the official letterhead TSA directive I have in my instrument case ... this is one case where the government has done us right, in my book.

Given the airlines have monetized the bags you check, the amount of carry-ons has increased a lot. If it's that obvious to me ... it's that obvious to the airlines.

While for most airlines there isn't a problem now, it would seem that writing on the wall suggests that our carry-on mandolins are going to start attracting attention as carry-on luggage and are next in line for airline attention, musicians are not important enough of customers to provide much help to [or information] currently.

The next time airline budgets get tight, carry-ons are one of the few things we aren't charged for yet - there's only so much money the can make of giving you a soda [no free bag of two tiny pretzels any more].

[journeybear]

Thanks for your insight, Markus, and I understand why you are sensitive concerning this aspect of the subject. People get frustrated over what seems like inexplicable situations, which seem to defy logic or common sense (which seems quite uncommon sometimes), and have to guess at the reasons why such situations arise. Humor is a useful defense mechanism, but people often forget or ignore the fact that someone or a group of people must be the butt of a joke. In other words, something happens, people don't understand why or how, and in order to cope they make light of it. When some of this develops into phrases that become common parlance, which get used a bit carelessly, people's feelings can get hurt. I noticed during the coverage of one football game yesterday one of the booth guys likened a defenders tight coverage of a receiver thusly: "He's on him like the TSA." Pretty weird, and really, not as funny as he thought he was being. I see this as a harbinger of things to come; there are going to be more such comments, as people's frustrations find expression. Hang in there, grin and bear it, because it's not personal, and has little to do with the good work your wife and her colleagues are actually doing. It's a phase the national mood is going through.

Oh, and the reason I call "army intelligence" an "oxymoron" is it isn't really an oxymoron. In order for the phrase to work it calls for an inference, whereas a true oxymoron, such as "jumbo shrimp," is self-explanatory.

OK, enough semantic banter. For now. ;)

[Markus]

There's certainly room in the world for humor. Nor am I going to state that there's any profession I haven't met some poor performers in ... around here I thought we called them banjo players.



Back on topic - I'd be all for paying $25 to carry my mandolin on, if it could be [I]guaranteed to ride in the cabin and not below. I'd pay a fee if I could know that it went with me [and not for the price of the seat next to me ... that's idiotic for a mandolin that can fit overhead in a reasonable case and quite often at your feet].

[TonyEarth]

that's horrible! on most trips I go, I take my violin as carry-on. And I plan on doing that with the mandolin too! I hope other airlines don't do this as well. But I didn't quite understand-what's the point of this? And Tim2723, for me it's just that I'm kind of attached to my instruments, and really like playing and practicing. Maybe it would be better to just rent one for the time you stay at wherever you're going to. Is renting instruments like that possible? for like a few weeks or a month?

[billkilpatrick]

the point, as i see it, it's a way for the airlines to make money at our - musician's - expense (though i imagine professional musicians see paying for an extra seat as a necessary business expense.) but if carry-on regulations were to apply to lap-top computers or prohibit someone from carrying a shoulder bag (camera, purse, etc.) AND a regulation sized piece of hand-luggage, i think there would be a huge consumer back-lash from everyone. as it is ... proportionally, how many people fly with a mandolin, violin or uke'?

all my flights originate in italy and italians seem to take a more relaxed view on this. if problems arise, they're more likely to occur when changing planes in another county or on the return trip home.

we may be flying to india this winter and if we do ... as your bow(ld), plucky (geddit'?) intrepid, investigative correspondent, i will boldly go forth with a musical instrument of some sort to test the waters.

[cerrogordo]

I fly fairly often with a mandolin, typically in a calton case. I have never had an issue with the airline so far. However, I would note that due to the size of the case, it is usually too long to fit across the short length of the overhead and too high to sit on its edge. Putting it flat and parallel to the overhead means that it takes up the space for two suitcases, not really leaving space for other people to put their stuff in the overhead. Sometimes, people put their stuff in, and the mandolin can fit on the outside or on top, depending on the plane. The only problem I have had is that other passengers complained about the "guy who put a guitar up there" and took all the space.

[Bertram Henze]

The whole business re.the 'allowable' size is ridiculous !. It should be about allowable 'total volume',after all,it's volume that the instrument takes up,the length is just one part of the whole.

There is a physical reality, and there is the neccessity of simple procedures for handling large numbers of passengers. Volume may be the right thing to measure, but it certainly is not the easy thing to measure (except by submerging every item in a water tank and measuring the difference in content height - you don't want that). The measuring procedure must not take longer than a few seconds per passenger, and it must be foolproof. Nobody wants to stand in line at check-in behind a lengthy discussion or a sophisticated measurement going on. So, I guess, they take resort to the easiest way of maximum sizes in three dimensions, i.e. your item must fit in a predefined virtual rectangular box.

I have been lucky so far with my instruments, and I checked them all in. I have taken a tenor banjo to Finland wrapped into all my clothing inside my very large suitcase, I have taken a mandolin to India the same way, I have taken my OM to Orkney in it's case heavily stuffed with styrofoam. Flying is always a risk - you baggage can get lost, or the whole plane can get lost, come to that; your instrument can survive baggage conveyors, low pressure and cold only to be crushed in a stage accident minutes before the gig.

If I had a $5000 mandolin, I'd of course be concerned what the airline staff might be doing to it; but if I had a several million $ airplane, I'd be concerned what all those passengers bring into it, too.

[Mandoviol]

I always figured that if worse came to worse, you could pop the mando case under your seat. Sure, it might stick out a few inches, but it's under there. The airline stewards would probably shoot you for being inventive, though....

I took my "beater" fiddle out to Nebraska a year ago after debating whether to take it or my mando on the plane. Ended up taking the fiddle because my case was smaller dimensions-wise than the mando (and met United's online space requirements). The funny part: when I got to the airport and checked it all through, some guy was putting a guitar in the overhead on the plane. I wanted to kick myself.

Weird that SAS is doing this. I flew to Oslo from the States this summer, and the 747 we were in had plenty of rack space as well as under the seat for a mando or fiddle. Just another way for the airlines to make life miserable for the rest of us.

[billkilpatrick]

ivan's argument about volume is valid within reason - a pair of skis might have the same volume as a regulation size carry-on bag - difficult to stow in the cabin.

hard cases may be the problem ... wonder if a gig-bag slung over the shoulder would make it more acceptable.

[journeybear]

Maybe so - but if not, you'd be stuck. Bad idea to put an instrument in a gig bag into checked luggage! :disbelief:

However ... a mandolin in a gig bag should be pretty easy to fit in, somewhere. The last time I flew with an instrument - OK, five years ago, and things may have changed - my guitarist and I were allowed to bring our instruments on board and stow them in some closet right near the door, which may have been intended for the flight attendants' use. They may have been being kind to or taking pity on us, and flying out of Nashville may have had something to do with this. ;)

The real problem in all of this is knowing in advance how the airline workers are going to respond to the situation at hand, because once you are at the airport your options are limited.

[billkilpatrick]

The real problem in all of this is knowing in advance how the airline workers are going to respond to the situation at hand, because once you are at the airport your options are limited.

this is it ...

from what i've read here, even if you carry a copy of the regulations, pass check-in, etc., etc., you're still at the mercy of the flight attendants. (squalling adult/OAP smiley symbol)

[Markus]

The measuring procedure must not take longer than a few seconds per passenger, and it must be foolproof. Nobody wants to stand in line at check-in behind a lengthy discussion or a sophisticated measurement going on. So, I guess, they take resort to the easiest way of maximum sizes in three dimensions, i.e. your item must fit in a predefined virtual rectangular box.

Good point.

You'd think that upon checking in you could get your bag approved for carry on [and tagged as such] where you drop your main luggage. That process already takes time and seems best staffed by airline employees.

My dream solution will never happen, but a approval at the point of luggage drop off would be nice as you could talk to one person and get a decision you can count on. Currently, anyone can decide to give you an issue, it would seem. And among a group of people, someone is having a bad day.

If you could have it approved at the front it would save the airline people down the line time as you'd have all tagged carry on items.

Problem is that they'd likely want to charge you for it, and all the instruments that get on without a charge [like now] would be missing money they could take us for. Doubt you'd be bringing an untagged instrument on for long. Given you don't get peanuts or pretzels for free anymore, you can be assured of that.

[mandomurph]

I've never had a problem with my F5 mandolin size wise as carry-ons on domestic flights. However if there's a possibility there could be a problem I can put my case-less Gibson teen "A" diagonally on it's side in a 22x14x9 standard carry-on bag with a little padding (T-shirts or towel) with no problem.

[Miked]

hard cases may be the problem ... wonder if a gig-bag slung over the shoulder would make it more acceptable.
I can picture the gig-bag in the overhead and then someone starts cramming in their suitcase. Sounds of strings popping, wood cracking...:crying:

I've never had a problem with the Travelite case and I've taken my F-9 on several trips. Fits nice in the overhead and it's easy to carry around the airport. I flew a couple weeks ago and one stewardess offered to put it in the closet up front, but I was fine with the overhead. Last resort, I would stick it under my feet, provided I had enough room. That probably wouldn't work in an exit row. There's no way I would want it to be checked.

[frankenstein]

Buy a seat for your instrument.

[Ivan Kelsall]

The bottom line is this folks,& we can argue till we're blue in the face,SOME airlines are ok SOME of the time & that other airlines are'nt ever ok with it !.You might get away with it one day,but the next day you won't. It's a pure gamble on our part & that's not a good situation for any of us. Which ever way you argue it, VOLUME, not one dimension or another, is what our instruments take up 'spacially', & that should be the ruling factor,anything else is nonsense.
It may very well be that those folk who have been lucky enough to have been allowed their instruments on board,did so through the good grace & common sense of the check-in clerks,but that's not always going to be the case (no pun intended).
As i intimated in my previous post,personally,i think that this issue can only be resolved by the Airline's 'ruling bodies' - CAA in the UK & the FAA in the USA.
Right now,if i wished to travel to Ireland,to meet up with the many friends i have over there,the ONLY way that i could be certain of being able to take my Mandolin 'on board',is to travel by sea. Earlier on this year,i had both e-mail & spoken conversations with reps.of the 3 UK to Ireland Airlines, & there's no way that i would be allowed my Mandolin on board any of their Aircraft. I could try it & maybe get away with it,then again ........,
Ivan

[Dagger Gordon]

This makes very interesting reading.

http://www.acguitar.com/article/default.aspx?articleid=25801

[billkilpatrick]

thank you dagger - very good article:

- gigbag (black) slung over the shoulder away from check-in personnel.
- pre-book ticket at the back of the airplane to board first.
- unobtrusive positioning near boarding gate so as to get there first - transfer gigbag to shoulder not facing boarding crew.
- if told to check the instrument at boarding gate, don't argue ... take the ticket and remove it as you walk down the ramp.
- shift gig-bag to right shoulder, away from the watchful gaze of the "trolley dolly's."
- be courteous and compliant through-out - perfect pussycats.

what could possibly go wrong? ...

[Bertram Henze]

It may very well be that those folk who have been lucky enough to have been allowed their instruments on board,did so through the good grace & common sense of the check-in clerks,but that's not always going to be the case (no pun intended).
As i intimated in my previous post,personally,i think that this issue can only be resolved by the Airline's 'ruling bodies' - CAA in the UK & the FAA in the USA.

I agree that consequent regulations would be better than depending on individual employees' whim, but prescribed procedures are only as good as the people who are supposed to execute them. Procedures are learned by practising. In a dim and distant future, when the average airline employee will have to handle thousands of travelling mandolin players every day, those procedures will be smoothly running routine, but for now we are but exotic special cases outside any routines, and airlines don't like that.

If such regulations are prescribed, they will probably divide instruments into rough most common classes , and you'll get a form to fill in with check boxes for
- piano
- guitar
- harmonica

or, if they make a finer classification, you'll get to choose if your instrument is a banjo or a ukulele :crying:

[luckylarue]

The mandolin is made for easy travel, imo. FWIW, I've travelled many times w/ mando and never had an issue and I'll be taking it to Mexico for Christmas in a few weeks.

I do have another airplane horror story: Friend of mine was flying w/ his old Gibson A. Barely made a connecting flight and had to store the mando in an over-head at the front of the plane. He sat somewhere towards the back. After the plane landed and he went to grab his Gibson from the over-head compartment, he discovered it was gone - stolen. Someone near the front must have grabbed it and took off w/out going to checked baggage. By the time my friend got up to the front to retrieve the instrument, the thieving magpie was long gone.

I always try to board the plane early to ensure I can store the mando right above me (traveling w' a five year-old makes it easier to do this).

[Mandoviol]

I guess the safest option, ultimately, would be to get something like a Weber Sweetpea, if you were just taking a mando to mess around with. If not, then things get hairier.

[journeybear]

... or, if they make a finer classification, you'll get to choose if your instrument is a banjo or a ukulele :crying:

Imagine what pipers must endure. If a set of bagipes is in a suitcase and X-rayed, it is bound to look like a collection of parts that, when assembled, would be a weapon that could produce devastation to all life forms within a one mile radius. And, of course, nothing could be further from the truth. ;)

[Mandoviol]

Imagine what pipers must endure. If a set of bagipes is in a suitcase and X-rayed, it is bound to look like a collection of parts that, when assembled, would be a weapon that could produce devastation to all life forms within a one mile radius. And, of course, nothing could be further from the truth. ;)

One might think it to be a "pipe" bomb ;)

[journeybear]

:)) I sets 'em up, you knocks 'em down! :))

[chriss]

I fly pretty much every week for work within the USA- Southwest more often than not, but also USAir, Delta, United, etc. For the last 3+ years I've been bringing Weber Sweet Pea along every week, ALWAYS as a carry-on. Never had a problem (...yet...) with either TSA or airline. Knock on wood - hope I didn't just jinx my good luck. The most attention it's gotten at security is occasionally results in a friendly conversation about music/instruments. I travel with 1 rolling computer bag and 1 soft cordura nylon "suit bag," and the Sweet Pea in it's gig bag slides right down the middle of the suit bag and essentially disappears inside there. I carry both of these on all the time. The suit bag with mando inside it fits the long way in the overheads of a 737, and even some of the larger commuter jets- CanadaAirs etc. (Long way means the end of the mando is pointing out towards the aisle.)

Why? Good Lord- the answer to this is blindingly obvious to me, having spent 2-3 nights a week on the road for like the last 20+ years now. Beats the livin daylights outta another night in front of a TV in a hotel room. I'm sure I woulda lost my mind by now if I hadn't found this lil instrument. I also noodle around a lot in airports waiting, sometimes in the back of the plane, cafes, etc. It can be quiet enuf that it isn't very intrusive on others, but still spreads a little music in the immediate vicinity. It often strikes up nice conversations. It cost ~$350 with shipping -- best $300 I have EVER SPENT -- HANDS DOWN. The tone/voice is certainly small and thin. But, the body+neck are built/cut from a single piece of maple so it's VERY sturdy.

I did travel back+forth between USA+ UK for several months in 2002, and brought along a A-sized hard case, and carried that on, without any trouble as well.

[billkilpatrick]

heartwarming, one man and his dawg story ... thanks.

[billkilpatrick]

advice on violinist.com from a guitar-playing airline pilot:

- be polite and courteous at all times
- if ground agents insist on checking your instrument as baggage, tell them you'll carry it to the plane to see if there's a closet it will fit in (flight attendants are the final authority on what goes in the cabin.)
- if they refuse to carry the instrument in the cabin, you can check it at the door - a much better option as it goes from there directly into the cargo hold and will be presented to you as you leave the plane at your destination (avoiding the whole baggage handling procedure and - hopefully - risk of damage.)
- print a copy of the airline's carry-on rules - they may vary (eg. the airline may reject a damage claim if the instrument was tuned to concert pitch.)
- his advise is to use a hard case.

[Ben Milne]

It's not just Scandanavia, we're having issues down here too (http://www.causes.com/causes/549479-stop-qantas-no-musical-instruments-onboard-policy/about?m=) it seems.

[Markus]

- his advise is to use a hard case.

I was really tempted to use a gig-bag, but realized that with a hard case there was at least the chance that the first hard knock only broke the case.

One thing I haven't heard mentioned, but would very seriously consider if using a gig-bag - would be to remove the bridge.

I took the tension off my strings, with just the E and G courses holding the bridge in place when I had my hard case ... I figured if stopped to gate-check, in short order I could loosen them a little more, carefully remove the bridge and replace it with a appropriately sized sponge I had in the case ready to go.

Not sure if a sponge is the best temporary replacement - but I had it around home, it was the right size, and would be easy to put in place in a second or two.

If you're forced to gate-check, I'd think the bridge would be my number one concern - you've got a hatchet lined up on your lovely spruce top, just waiting to be hammered. The bend in the neck at the nut is also a concern - but the bridge felt like a place of concern even with my hard case.

[JeffD]

Yep, Chinese saying: If thine enemy wrong thee, buy each of his children a drum

And finger paints.

[JeffD]

this is it ...

from what i've read here, even if you carry a copy of the regulations, pass check-in, etc., etc., you're still at the mercy of the flight attendants.

Bingo.

The attendants and check in people, at the moment you are checking in, can do pretty much what they want. They can spontaneously change the rules, change the rules for some and not others, ignore the rules. The justification is safety and attempting to keep to the schedule. At the moment your only choice is to comply, or not fly.

One might also notice that since you have already paid your money, there is no incentive to make you happy or keep you happy. There is certainly nothing in it for the staff.

[Markus]

What the airlines provides in terms of rules is a far, far cry from that official TSA letter I have in the case that I feel like might actually be looked at.

If it doesn't have an official letterhead, they aren't doing more than a glance. You're better off telling them you golf with their boss than showing them website printouts. [though that's better than nothing]

[catmandu2]

Except for the professional player en-route to a contractual agreement, I've never once understood this business about taking an instrument along for the trip.

If I showed up somewhere without an instrument, my family and friends would be disappointed. I'm not a professional entertainer, but entertaining is what I do whenever there are people about who wish to be entertained. The few times that I've flown sans instruments, there were folks at the other end who missed the music. What good is a musician without an instrument? It's a poor holiday without music.

Unfortunately, to be consistent (and safe), airlines should have never allowed stringed instruments on board as carry-ons: a .10 mm steel garrote can be far more lethal than a box cutter, etc. A string can be removed from a fiddle in about two seconds.

[Ed Goist]

...snip... a .10 mm steel garrote can be far more lethal than a box cutter, etc.

You haven't even begun to understand the potential lethality of a mandolin until you've heard me play.

[catmandu2]

I think I'll start working more diligently with flute and concertina...in anticipation of a strict "no stringed instrument carry-on" policy.

[billkilpatrick]

... a .10 mm steel garrote can be far more lethal than a box cutter, etc. A string can be removed from a fiddle in about two seconds.

good point - never occurred to me ... but a garrote can just as easily be made from a stringed instrument sitting in a paid seat.

[Mandolinista]

Hello all. I've flown to Crete on package flights seven times and always taken an instrument, initially a mandolin 1st time my Buchanan in a hard case and threafter a Martin backpacker in its wee gig bag. No problems then I was given a baglamas which is even smaller and well within limits. One year I was taking a cheapie Chinese mandolin with a pick-up as a present and that was the only time a mandolin was inspected other than because a member of staff was interested (the electric wiring attracted a careful check from security). I use my pockets and any space in the mandolin case to cope with the normal carry on needs. Going to Ireland with Ryanair is another story. Next year for Dublin I plan to fit my Goldtone banjo mandolin diagonally into a flight case surrounded by clothes - wish me luck. I use the technique suggested by Bill when I take the Martin. Over shoulder out of eyeline and etc. The soft bag in the overhead locker is atype of Hell when you see the way some passengers load stuff up there...

[catmandu2]

good point - never occurred to me ... but a garrote can just as easily be made from a stringed instrument sitting in a paid seat.

Yep. If I were in charge of airline safety, I would implement a "no stringed instruments in the cabin" policy.

[catmandu2]

The soft bag in the overhead locker is atype of Hell when you see the way some passengers load stuff up there...

Indeed. Remember, once you place your instrument in an overhead, keep an eye on it! If I see someone rearranging the contents of a bin where I have an instrument in a soft case, or about to stuff a hard briefcase into, I quickly assist.

Avoid placing your instrument in an overhead not within easy sight...unless you're especially trusting regarding your instrument.

[Geiss]

Fly to where you have to be....find a Guitar Center ...try to find something decent to play for the old folks, kids, whatever...then utilize the 30 day return (unless you fall in love with it).....oh, never mind I must be mumbling....

[Geiss]

......and don't carry extra strings on the aircraft either...could be used to strangle....then again, the same could be said for a cannoli.......crazy world, thank the lord for pickin'/DES

[catmandu2]

Fly to where you have to be....find a Guitar Center ...try to find something decent to play for the old folks, kids, whatever...then utilize the 30 day return (unless you fall in love with it).....oh, never mind I must be mumbling....

Good idea: only holiday where there is a Guitar Center nearby.. :(

[Markus]

I found removing all tools and my tuner meant that my mandolin wasn't once opened in security the entire trip this last week.

Useful to keep in mind.

[catmandu2]

I found removing all tools and my tuner meant that my mandolin wasn't once opened in security the entire trip this last week.


Yes, I was always puzzled by this...since the most dangerous/lethal item among those tools is a string. I presume that no one at TSA has thought this through. It couldn't be that they simply don't wish to inconvenience musicians who may carry on stringed instruments, so I have to assume that it's simply an oversight.

[Markus]

One pick plus mando looked cool on the xray too. Anything else spoils the aesthetics.

[JeffD]

You're better off telling them you golf with their boss than showing them website printouts.

That is what I understand. Gate agents and flight attendants have full authority to deal with what ever they see at the moment. A piece of paper only documents the rules they have the right to arbitrarily suspended in your specific case.

[catmandu2]

Perhaps they view musicians as categorically benevolent, and incapable of a foul disposition. I mean, guys packing violin cases are never up to no good, right?

Hasn't anyone at TSA seen El Mariachi?

65363

[Ed Goist]

One pick plus mando looked cool on the xray too. Anything else spoils the aesthetics.

Maybe the X-ray machine causes the mandolin to open-up also?...Oh no, forget I said that...

[JeffD]

Seems to me an airline could make money, and solve a lot of problems, by charging per carry on and not for checked baggage.

[Markus]

Maybe the X-ray machine causes the mandolin to open-up also?...Oh no, forget I said that...

No, I can definitively say that it wasn't the X-ray machine. Nor was it the week spent in the desert, played while drying out, humidifying at night.

It was the `Everest Treatment' [TM]. 7 hours of radiation exposure at elevations as high as the peak of Mount Everest, all done at the safety of your feet as you travel by airplane.

From what I understand, you are getting soaked in various radiation filtered out by the atmosphere when on a long flight. It's documented and proven!

[catmandu2]

65362

"Pardon me...do you mind if I have the aisle seat? Yes...is just a guitar."

[Psyberbilly]

Imagine what pipers must endure. If a set of bagipes is in a suitcase and X-rayed, it is bound to look like a collection of parts that, when assembled, would be a weapon that could produce devastation to all life forms within a one mile radius. And, of course, nothing could be further from the truth. ;)

Have you ever heard the bagpipes in person ?! If not played well , you have just given the perfect DEFINITION of bagpipes ! But I do agree with you premise .

[Mandoviol]

......and don't carry extra strings on the aircraft either...could be used to strangle....then again, the same could be said for a cannoli.......crazy world, thank the lord for pickin'/DES

Not to mention shoelaces, especially the ones on dress shoes. Thin and tough, they are.

[catmandu2]

Not to mention shoelaces, especially the ones on dress shoes. Thin and tough, they are.

True enough. Okay, so I would require boardees to check their laces or shoes at the gate (as well as perfume, nail polish, crying babies)...loafer-wearers can board directly, however.

And no sneezing.

[Bertram Henze]

Even if passengers were required to board naked, there'd still be those who can kill you with their personality.

The only safe way of transport is in cryogenic coffins. Safe for the airplane, that is.

[catmandu2]

Yes, you are...absolutely correct. (I'm sorry, there must have been some...problem...with the cryogenic sleep cells. Please, remain calm...take a pill...your flight will continue as....normal)


65410

[billkilpatrick]

boys! ... boys!! ...

[journeybear]

I found removing all tools and my tuner meant that my mandolin wasn't once opened in security the entire trip this last week.

The last time I flew with my instrument my guitarist and I got pulled out of the line before going through the metal detector. They went through our instrument cases, and removed my needle nose pliers. I protested, to no avail; they were adamant, even after I told them I had had the tool for over twenty years, one of my oldest possessions. No dice. Bye bye. Oh, and this was in Nashville, where you would think the workers would be used to musicians and their idiosyncrasies. Never did figure out why we were singled out - probably just random, to make a public display and demonstrate to all that they were doing their job. Glad I could help. Not! :mad:


Have you ever heard the bagpipes in person?! If not played well, you have just given the perfect DEFINITION of bagpipes!

Well, yes, of course, and that was rather the idea. Thanks! ;) Now, I actually like the sound of the uillean pipes, which can sound quite sweet and plaintive; Highland pipes, which for some reason are required for playing Amazing Grace at funerals for policemen and firemen in America, are another matter altogether... I have heard they were designed at least partly for military use, to frighten and disorient the enemy. :disbelief:

I've told this story before, so if you've seen it already, please bear with me ... One time when I was playing at Mallory Square (downtown Key West, on the water, where people gather to watch the sunset) and getting roundly ignored while the circus-type acts were getting the most attention, I was trying every song I could think of to see what would work. I had just finished The Who's "Substitute" when a gentleman with a UK accent came up and put a dollar in my case and mentioned he was surprised to hear that and rather liked it. In the brief chat that followed he said he was from Scotland, and I mentioned there was a piper in the far corner of the square. He replied, "Oh, I hate the pipes. Back home, there's a pipe band that practices three miles from me, and it's still too close!" I was thinking, "Have I just fallen into one of those musical jokes? Brilliant!" Anyway, he wandered away, and came back a while later to tell me, "I've just listened to that fellow for ten minutes and I didn't recognize a single thing he played. I don't know what it was but it wasn't Scottish music." Priceless.

So, yes, this is something the airlines would want to take special precautions about having on a plane. ;)

[Randi Gormley]

I had a pair of nail scissors removed from my carryon suitcase as being too dangerous for the flight -- the same flight that allowed my daughter to bring on a small penknife, after initially detaining her because of a pair of toy handcuffs she had bought for a friend (or so she said ... ); I've always said that my 3 kids — two second-degree black belts and a second-degree brown belt in karate — were far more dangerous in theory than my nail scissors with their tiny, curved blades. My mandolin, on the other hand, was brought on (the one time I traveled with it) in a black gig bag over my shoulder without any fuss at all. I think we can all agree that consistency isn't the problem, it's INconsistency, because you don't know what will work and what won't on any given flight. (My daughter tells me the penknife was taken away eventually during some other flight)

[JeffD]

To quote from the referenced article:

"SAS just informed me in writing that small stringed instruments such as violins, mandolins, etc are now banned as carry-on items on their planes.

Their exact words were 'A violin (with normal measurements)will not fit within the maximum measurments thus not possible to bring it on board.'

Nevermind the fact that a single violin in a typical case is smaller in overall volume than most carryons and easily fits in the overhead bins. "


I am visualizing a cartoon. Its at Lincoln Center, in New York. Concert of the Gothenberg Symphony Orchestra, touring the U.S. The curtain opens and they are all there, impeccably dressed, without their insruments.

"Hey we tried, but SAS would not let us bring out instruments."

[Mandoviol]

Even if passengers were required to board naked, there'd still be those who can kill you with their personality.

The only safe way of transport is in cryogenic coffins. Safe for the airplane, that is.

And for extra precaution, straightjackets for everyone! (Just to prevent martial arts afficianados from roughing somebody up.)

[mikeyes]

In another life I am a carp fisherman which means that I often travel with 12 foot fishing rods. When I first started out, they put my rods (which were in insulated tubes) in baggage and they came out at the usual place. I quickly learned to put the tubes in a ski bag which changed the entire dynamic. Because skis mean long expensive trips by wealthy people, anything in a ski bag is treated in a different manner and place by hand in a different place for pickup. In the summer they assume you must have gone to Chili to ski. The airlines don't like to annoy potential first class customers.

The same is true of mandolins. I use a tried and true method of putting my mandolin and case in a large tennis racquet bag. I have never had anyone question me about it. Tennis = wealthy persons = more income for the airlines. Perception is the thing.

[Psyberbilly]

Originally posted by journeybear :l, yes, of course, and that was rather the idea. Thanks! Now, I actually like the sound of the uillean pipes, which can sound quite sweet and plaintive; Highland pipes, which for some reason are required for playing Amazing Grace at funerals for policemen and firemen in America, are another matter altogether... I have heard they were designed at least partly for military use, to frighten and disorient the enemy.

I actually like the uillean and the highland bagpipes , when played well. In the wrong hands, much like the fiddle , they can quickly become a terrorist's tools . Weapons of mass aural destruction as it were !

[catmandu2]

Perception is the thing.



Two things I've learned:

Never admit that the item that appears to be a type of explosive device under x-ray is a concertina: because no one at TSA knows what a concertina is and associates the word with military (concertina wire, concentration camp, molotov cocktail, etc.)--the screeners will become aroused, lift their heads, and say, "a what?.." and begin a thorough examination of said concertina; call it a "small accordian thingy"..

Never admit that you are carring a bouzouki: because no one at TSA knows what a bouzouki is... (same subsequent scrutiny will ensue as above); call it a large mandolin, or "weird kind of guitar thingy" if they don't know what a mandolin is..

One trip when I was packing a banjo and mandolin, both, I actually had one screener proudly announce to the other screeners, "that's a banjo..." I don't remember what he called my mandolin, but it wasn't "mandolin."

[billkilpatrick]

In another life I am a carp fisherman which means that I often travel with 12 foot fishing rods. When I first started out, they put my rods (which were in insulated tubes) in baggage and they came out at the usual place. I quickly learned to put the tubes in a ski bag which changed the entire dynamic. Because skis mean long expensive trips by wealthy people, anything in a ski bag is treated in a different manner and place by hand in a different place for pickup. In the summer they assume you must have gone to Chili to ski. The airlines don't like to annoy potential first class customers.

The same is true of mandolins. I use a tried and true method of putting my mandolin and case in a large tennis racquet bag. I have never had anyone question me about it. Tennis = wealthy persons = more income for the airlines. Perception is the thing.

hope everyone is taking notes ... there's some really good stuff here.

[billkilpatrick]

i personally think uke's will be our salvation - the cheaper the better. whether it's a grab for cash on the part of the airlines or some far-fetched security measure, the resulting media attention would be shaming indeed, with stacks of purloined ukes clogging our airports ... and the "5th column" effect that's bound to happen when airport staff start bringing these instruments home for the kids and create an enemy within.

anyone know michael moore? ... there's a movie here - we could call it "plucko!"

[Ivan Kelsall]

I can only think that 'terminal stupidity' seems to be affecting most Airlines. Obviously to them, anything an inch overlength / width / height is detrimental to getting the aircraft into the air.
Maybe we could get this problem aired on our TV stations to see / hear what the arline's reactions would be when exposed to public ridicule.Then again,i suspect that they're bloody minded enough to tell us 'like it or lump it' !!,
Ivan
PS - 'Terminal' - i didn't mean it honestly !:))~:>

[Knucklehead]

It's just a matter of time until the TSA determines that Mandolins and stringed musical instruments in general are potentially dangerous weapons because someone could be garroted with the thin metal strings, and consigns the entire lot to the aircraft's hold.
Personally I find commercial air travel a negative experience, and have cut back considerably on travel.

[Bertram Henze]

Personally I find commercial air travel a negative experience, and have cut back considerably on travel.

Ditto - I fly only if really neccessary. In my experience, anxiety about my baggage goes down considerably while I fill that paper bag; then, standing by the baggage claim belt dizzy and sweating, I am not really interested in how my baggage will look like when it finally comes out or if it comes out at all. :popcorn:

[catmandu2]

Me too. Unfortunately, my family has seen far less of me the past several years. Rocketing in the metal tube at 30K feet, cramped like sardines, sharing stale air...it's like a bad dream.

[journeybear]

Something I haven't seen addressed yet in this most edifying thread is the danger of freezing. If your mandolin gets rejected at the gate or airplane door and winds up in the luggage, won't it get subjected to the much more frigid temperatures up there around 8 mi /13 km high? No matter how much kiln drying was applied to the wood, isn't there some moisture in it that will react unfavorably in this situation? :(

[catmandu2]

Something I haven't seen addressed yet in this most edifying thread is the danger of freezing. If your mandolin gets rejected at the gate or airplane door and winds up in the luggage, won't it get subjected to the much more frigid temperatures up there around 8 mi /13 km high? No matter how much kiln drying was applied to the wood, isn't there some moisture in it that will react unfavorably in this situation? :(

Yes, but I believe that there's less danger to wood exposed to cold rather than heat (think of all the instruments spending the days in frozen UPS cargo holds). Heat, however, is the real threat.

At any rate, if you're asked to relenquish your instrument at the gate, take the time to detune it.

But for the truly mando-loving among us, perhaps get a set of thermal undies for that mando, or down mitties...or maybe a fifth and an ice shack..

[bobby bill]

I don't fly frequently - maybe 20 times in the last ten years. I have probably taken my mandolin 19 of those times and have never had a problem. My very last flight into Austin, the pilot commented on my case and actually knew the name of the instrument inside of it. Flying just continues to get worse and worse and if I had the time, I would try just about any mode of transportation before flying.

A belated tip to Journey Bear who lost his needle nose: I probably just got lucky on this but about three years ago I was flying to England. I brought my darts (I mean, I was going to England) but only remembered them at the last minute and stupidly put them in my carry-on. They were immediately recognized as WMD's and confiscated. I pleaded that they were fairly expensive, personal, and I had had them for a long time. No dice. Then I switched gears and said that if they keep them they will be lost to me and maybe they could put them in the airport's lost and found. Amazingly, he agreed. When I returned to Austin two weeks later, I went to the lost and found at the airport and "found" them.

[catmandu2]

And a comment regarding Mike's theory about tennis players being less hassled: I was forced to relenquish my tiny, tiny blunt nose scissors that I keep (kept) in my racquet bag for trimming grip tape. I couldn't have harmed anyone with those scissors--they barely worked for cutting a thread..

[journeybear]

When I returned to Austin two weeks later, I went to the lost and found at the airport and "found" them.

Now there is a story with a happy ending! So glad you had the presence of mind to come up with that solution. Of course, that only works for the second half of round trips ...;)


... But for the truly mando-loving among us, perhaps get a set of thermal undies for that mando, or down mitties...or maybe a fifth and an ice shack..

Ummm ... for mandolins, reptiles, some dinosaurs, and other non-homeothermic entities, no number of thermal undies will help - they operate by keeping the heat produced by said object/body from escaping, not actually creating any themselves. I wish my idiotic neighbor had had the mental wherewithal to figure this out the time two winters ago the local iguana died and she fished it out of the trash and wrapped it in a towel, thinking this would restore it. :disbelief: Actually, no, I don't - I laughed for days about this, and still chuckle occasionally. :))

The fifth and ice shack method, along with a stout line, good bait, and really warm clothing (maybe even thermal undies), is a good winter alternative to air travel in general. ;)

[catmandu2]

Ummm ... for mandolins, reptiles, some dinosaurs, and other non-homeothermic entities, no number of thermal undies will help - they operate by keeping the heat produced by said object/body from escaping, not actually creating any themselves.

Silly me...thanks for setting me straight on that.

This would never do on the melodeon forum--where satire and sarcasm seems generally better understood. http://forum.melodeon.net/index.php/topic,5461.0.html

Or, maybe my theory is correct: the melodeon is inherently more comical than the mandolin...

[catmandu2]

In another life I am a carp fisherman...

Mike, I guess you've got some good recipes then! Or, maybe one good recipe...?

[Mandoviol]

i personally think uke's will be our salvation - the cheaper the better. whether it's a grab for cash on the part of the airlines or some far-fetched security measure, the resulting media attention would be shaming indeed, with stacks of purloined ukes clogging our airports ... and the "5th column" effect that's bound to happen when airport staff start bringing these instruments home for the kids and create an enemy within.

anyone know michael moore? ... there's a movie here - we could call it "plucko!"

We could do it kind of the way Arlo Guthrie describes the "Alice's Restuarant" movement, except rather than wandering into a draft office and saying "You can get anything you want at Alice's Restuarant," we wander into airports, set down a ukulele, and then walk away.....

[frankenstein]

This thread reminds me of Gaylord Fokkers return to Chicago.

[mikeyes]

Mike, I guess you've got some good recipes then! Or, maybe one good recipe...?

Cat,

I smoke them, but they are very hard to light. :))

[catmandu2]

I've got a good one: requires butter, lemon, parsley, and a 2x4, or other lumber.. ;)

[journeybear]

This recipe is for coot (a notoriously oily northern American water fowl you guys may be familiar with), but perhaps it can be adapted.

Take, your coot - plucked, cleaned, and otherwise ready for roasting - and stuff it with a brick. Roast until the brick has absorbed all the juices and is soft. Throw away the coot and eat the brick.

:))

[catmandu2]

I knew others here would know my one carp recipe..

[catmandu2]

But, why must everything eventually boil down to a culinary reference?

[journeybear]

Boil down? Eh? :)

Well, usually I blame Weird Al, but this time ... Actually, Mike just mentioned how he coped with taking 12 foot fishing rods on board, but you know how it goes ... fishing => fish => food :popcorn:

[catmandu2]

Hmm...interesting. But it was only a rhetorical question.. ;)

But yeah, I could see a hellish air experience with Mike wrangling aboard a stringer-full of carp(s?) along with his quiver of rods, no matter how tanned he is from playing tennis (to divert the TSA, ingeniously).

(btw, if preparing TWO carps, simply double the one carp recipe--procure two 2x4s, etc.)

[Ivan Kelsall]

A thought occurred to me yesterday,re.taking our instruments onto an aircraft. My Travelite case fits neatly inside the molded polypropylene suitcase that i use for clothing etc.when going on vacation. There's enough room under the case,around it & on the top of it,to be able to pack it with a few towels. If the instrument is 'double wrapped' like that,i was wondering how it would stand up to being placed in the baggage hold. I've brought several fragile objects (blown-glass items), home with me from my summer vacations in the past, which didn't have the benefit of having been 'double wrapped' & which survived intact - just a thought,
Ivan;)