Gibson rumors [Archive] - Mandolin Cafe Forum

jim simpson

Oct-11-2004, 4:58am

I am reluctant to add to a flame war but here is what I know. I understand that Gibson will be offering a deal where you will be allowed to turn in your F5 copy for a model they are introducing as The Amnesty model. It will be similar to the F9. They will destroy all of the instruments that are turned in. I'm alright with this plan as I currently own an F5-G but I will miss my Daley. I just hope the new Amnesty model will be close enough to take the sting out of my loss!

Scott Tichenor

Oct-11-2004, 5:47am

Oooh! Where's that guy they say deletes all of the Gibson threads as soon as they're started?

PlayerOf8

Oct-11-2004, 6:07am

From my cold dead hands

G

John Rosett

Oct-11-2004, 6:36am

well, i've read all this gibson stuff, and i'm kinda confused. since gibson also invented the modern A style mandolin also(both oval hole and f hole), does this mean that we're all going to have to go back to playing tater bugs and flat backs? i'm sure glad i bought that Arrow G.
there's something to be said for original design.
# # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # # john

8ch(pl)

Oct-11-2004, 6:39am

They may have a claimon flat backs from the 1917 Alrite and later Army and Navy models. Good bye Mid Missouri, gonna miss her.

Big Joe

Oct-11-2004, 7:26am

Doesn't anyone have anything better to do than this kind of illogical speculation??? One thing about it, it doesn't take much to get the rumor mill flying if one attaches the Gibson name to it. Let common sense circulate once again and put this idiocy to rest! We have better things to do with chisels than pry your whatever from your hands. If you want a Gibson, save your nickels and pennies and go buy one because that is the only way you are going to get one.

Chris Baird

Oct-11-2004, 8:46am

I've never bashed Gibson and never will. I just want to know what is circulating just under the surface. Quite frankly, as a builder, the rumors I've heard are a bit disturbing. But, they are just internet rumors. So, I'm calling on someone who knows to substantiate something so that it doesn't mutate further. Like it or not Gibson is a big name and a big influence in the mandolin world, if something is happening with them it is going to get talked about.

softshell

Oct-11-2004, 11:04am

Time to go for a Rigel!

mandorado

Oct-11-2004, 11:39am

If you want a Gibson, save your nickels and pennies and go buy one because that is the only way you are going to get one.

Nickels and pennies ... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif ... GREAT! I should be able to afford the ONE I WANT ... uh ... er ... I'm not a math wiz ... but I'm going to guess that it means I will NEVER OWN ONE! lol

I think I can honestly say ... I will never own a Gibson F5, ever. And I really don't care, because there are so many other great builders to buy F5's from. So go ahead and price them SKY HIGH! Yeah baby!

dasspunk

Oct-11-2004, 11:45am

Doesn't anyone have anything better to do than this kind of illogical speculation???
Sure, but I can multi-task...

Dan Cole

Oct-11-2004, 11:49am

So I can give up my Ibanez 524, and get a Gibson F? I'll do that, where do I sign up? I won't however give up my Weber.

Chris Baird

Oct-11-2004, 11:58am

Perhaps we can try to have a discussion about whats going on without all the bashing. My concern is that Gibson's litigation will move from guitars to mandolins. If that happens it will directly effect me and many others. It seems unlikely that Gibson would even try it but I have yet to hear Big Joe or Charlie directly counter that specific rumor. If they do go after Collings MF5 it seems just a hop skip and jump from the small builders F5 copies. And, yes generally I do have better things to do than worry about Gibson but not when I hear it may eventually bite me in the but. Perhaps this is all just silly rumor but it is hard to turn ones head away when Scott says something is going to be big.

sgarrity

Oct-11-2004, 12:18pm

While I'm not a fan of some of their latest decisions, I have to believe Gibson is smarter than to go after the F-5 design. I think the backlash from the mandolin playing community would be tremendous.

Shaun

Phantoj

Oct-11-2004, 12:24pm

If you want a Gibson, save your nickels and pennies and go buy one because that is the only way you are going to get one.

With the new price hikes, this should read:

If you want a Gibson, rob a bank, become a drug dealer, or go and steal one because that is the only way you are going to get one.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

(Intended as *humor*... yes, I would love to have a Gibson, and I appreciate the contribution of the Gibson guys here...)

Docmarc

Oct-11-2004, 12:38pm

Once again, thanks Charlie and Joe for adding value to my Sam Bush...I bought it because it was a great sounding instrument...looks like it'll turn out to be a good investment too...

cbogle

Oct-11-2004, 12:38pm

Yeah, but what about that OTHER rumor?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

mandofiddle

Oct-11-2004, 12:52pm

I almost wonder if all the postings on "the rumor" whatever it may be will unintentionally "water down the truth" when it does come out from the big G. I have yet to find where the so-called "rumor" is spelled out instead of people just guessing what it is. So are these threads just getting us all heated up over something that is complete speculation? Thereby taking to hot-air out of the balloon when the big G finally does tell the general public what is going on? Hmmm. I would really like to hear someone state what the specific rumor is, who the source is, and quash the guesses of what I've been reading.

G. Fisher

Oct-11-2004, 12:54pm

Big Joe

Oct-11-2004, 1:01pm

Again I say rumors are just that. Most often based on nothing more than hot air. I know of nothing in the big G that would affect any of you in any way. I have no information on us suing anyone over anything. I have no information on any issue that would affect the mandolin world. When we have something to tell we will. Until then speculate away but please realize the rumors espoused have no basis in fact. Oh, I forgot. We really don't want the facts to come into play http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif .

Yellowmandolin

Oct-11-2004, 1:17pm

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Chris Baird

Oct-11-2004, 1:21pm

This IS too speculative for me. I was hoping those who started this ball rolling and who know more would chime in. I'll come back when they do.

GVD

Oct-11-2004, 1:34pm

mandofiddle Posted on Oct. 11 2004, 13:52

I would really like to hear someone state what the specific rumor is, who the source is, and quash the guesses of what I've been reading.

Mandoplyr Posted on Oct. 11 2004, 14:21

This IS too speculative for me. #I was hoping those who started this ball rolling and who know more would chime in. #I'll come back when they do.

I'm with you two. If this was such a hot topic at the IBMA then why won't someone who was there just come right out and say specifically what the rumor was? So far all I've seen is speculation on what the rumor might have been. As Walter Huston said in The Treasure of the Sierra Madre "If you got something up your nose blow it out".

GVD

mandoJeremy

Oct-11-2004, 2:09pm

I agree! Just say it!

devilsbox

Oct-11-2004, 2:29pm

I am not a lawyer, but I think it would be too late now for Gibson to claim exclusive rights to the F-style even if they wanted to. Without some hard evidence this is not credible.
As for pricing, they are making their product in this country (which is expensive in itself) and they have the magic name. The marketplace will determine their future.

Ancient

Oct-11-2004, 4:58pm

Hey Joe,I don't want a Gibson mando. I have played them and there are a lot of better mandos to choose from. I think Gibson is just feeling the pinch from good imports and other good builders. I'll save my pennies and get something better than a Gibson.

Rick Schmidlin

Oct-11-2004, 5:03pm

If Gibson tryed to patent the F.

Would Martin try the Dred?

It would never hold up.

Rick

mad dawg

Oct-11-2004, 5:16pm

dasspunk: LOL!!!

frogbiscuit

Oct-11-2004, 5:32pm

For those of you that aren't in to electric guitars, this probably started because (recently) Gibson successfully sued PRS (Paul Reed Smith) guitars over their single cutaway model because Gibson trademarked that design in the early 50's. It was the same basis that they successfully sued Ibanez, Yamaha, Fernandes, et. al., in the 70's. They won those lawsuits (along with Fender, too).
I'm not a mandolin expert, but my opinion is that the only way it will happen in the mandolin world because of several reasons (just MHO).
1. Somebody has to start selling more F's than Gibson.
2. The Gibson has to get a reputation as an inferior overpriced product, upsetting Gibson and leading others to buy other brands.
3. Nobody, including Gibson's leading competitor, pays Gibson for the rights to use the F5 shape (we may never know whether these agreements exist).
4. Gibson has to have trademarked the F shape before they became commonplace. (This, I don't know, I am too ignorant in the ways of the mandolin to comment).
This is what happened, anad will continue to happen, to anyone who challenges Gibson in the high end guitar market, until people get tired of paying $2000 and up for ###### guitars.
That, or they will just buy up the competition like Fender did with Tacoma....

Big Joe

Oct-11-2004, 9:32pm

Ancient...if you find what you believe is a better mandolin for any price, then just buy it. Why try to bait me? I'm not playing. Lots of good mandos and plenty for everyone. For me, I'll take my Gibsons anyday and be very happy with them. You want an MK, that's fine with me.

Again, please let these rumors cease. This is beginning to become another long thread about electric guitars, law suits that have nothing to do with mandolins, and an excuse to bash Gibson at every turn. If and when there is anything to tell you I will be happy to. Till then, I have no information that would be of interest to anyone here and neither does anyone else...not even Scott.

JimRichter

Oct-11-2004, 10:57pm

I agree with Big Joe, let it go. #Let the market decide on the decisions that Gibson makes. #As Big Joe says, if you choose to buy an MK, go for it. #As someone who once owned a new Sam Bush F5, my ultimate newly made mando would be a Gibson Master Model, but I can't afford it (even a used one at the ridiculously low price they're going for now). #Because I can't afford it, does that give me any reason to bash Gibson? #And now, when it seems that the price is even getting further out of my reach, am i even more justified in bashing Gibson? #You can let Gibson know your dissatisfaction by not giving them your business. #Charlie and Big Joe seem to be great guys and they have every right to defend Gibson as Gibson employees. #Allow them to take pride in where they work. #They aren't the ones in the Gibson corporate offices. And, the Gibson corporate offices have every right to protect what they believe to be interests and property of their company. It's then up to a court to decide.

My Corona-inspired 2cents

Jim #

PS: #Big Joe--as much as I love my Wayne Henderson F5, I'd love to come back to the Gibson fold, so could I trade one of my 3 year old twins (I'd still be left with one of them) for a new Master Model? #He could start an early apprenticeship with you and Charlie.

Big Joe

Oct-12-2004, 7:17am

Hey Jim...I do take trades, but nothing that eats and poops. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif I'll take guitars, mandolins, banjos, maybe even a hammered dulcimer (at least something at the store could get hammered http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif ).

JimRichter

Oct-12-2004, 7:31am

Then one of the twins would be great for you--he's already potty-trained and he refuses to eat most anything I put in front of him. #

Jim

mandoman4807

Oct-12-2004, 8:02am

I wouldn't be so quick to assume that all Gibsons will go up in value because of the price increase. Used Master Models can still be had for around $8,000 and used Sam Bush and Wayne Benson models for $4,500-$5,500.

This may be true now, but down the road, will most certainly have quite a different out come http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Darrell

mikeyes

Oct-12-2004, 8:09am

Unless I am misreading the tea leaves, there should be a limited time in which the no-longer Gibson Dealers will be wanting to divest themselves of their product and you can still get a good deal on an expensive instrument while they last. It's probably a matter of looking around in the Net and making a few calls.

As for value, frankly my Fern V is still the best mandolin I have ever played and it gets better with each outing turning the heads of non mandolin players. I played accompaniment to a singer the other day and she went out of the way to tell me what a wonderful sound the V had. She was not praising my playing either, darn it. I would pay more than I did for this instrument, but I did get a good deal on it as it was in the store for a year and a little shopworn. That is what any aspirants to a Gibson should be looking for right now.

AC4RD

Oct-12-2004, 4:05pm

Again, please let these rumors cease. #This is beginning to become another long thread about electric guitars, law suits that have nothing to do with mandolins,
I'm with Joe; as a long-time Telecaster fan, I've seen the same sort of pointless rumors swirling around the Fender parking lot for years. But I'm adding to this thread just to say HOW VERY GLAD I AM TO HAVE JOE PARTICIPATING ON THE MANDOLIN CAFE DISCUSSION AREAS! Some companies don't want staffers taking part in discussion areas, for whatever reason. I think it's great to have Joe offering input!
--Ken, one of several Raleigh newbies

JeffS

Oct-12-2004, 9:58pm

I honestly don't know how other makers can make an F5 and call it an F5 and go as far as building it to F5 specs. And then advertise the fact that they have gone as far as doing all that. It doesn't help them any if Gibson did pursue it. Also, I've always thought it interesting that my Fender "F" isn't called an F and has some unique differences from the real F5's as far as headstock, neck joint, and scroll go. And I'm not just talking about the finish flaws. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I don't want to fuel rumors or anything but lets take an imaginary independent builder who is doing 15 instruments a year. If this guy gets a cease and desist letter saying it is an unathorized copy there isn't much he can do except change his design. It would be too expensive to challenge. Now if you go after all the small producers you can pretty much stop all of these guys because they can't afford to defend themselves. The companies who can, you leave them out for now and see if they cease on their own. But in the mean time, you've decreased the competition and are taking the business these small builders normally would have had.

I work in the software industry and I see a story like this almost every week when it comes to software patents. I've seen it joked that if you got a software company lawyer into the music industry they'd have a field day suing people over similar uses of chord progressions in songs. Anyway, I think these rumors aren't too far fetched. I saw something a couple days ago where some attorneys were going to start issuing challenges for smell and taste patents.

Nathan Sanders

Oct-12-2004, 10:07pm

I think you all you have is a bunch of rumors. I do not know who starts these rumors, but they should stop. Besides, who has the patent or even copyright to the design of the violin? Who holds the rights to the piano? What about the banjo?.....get off the rumors and talk about good mandolin topics.

mandoJeremy

Oct-12-2004, 11:54pm

I, again, agree f5dude!

Scott Tichenor

Oct-13-2004, 4:49am

I have no information that would be of interest to anyone here and neither does anyone else...not even Scott.
Joe is right, and I didn't help this any with my post early on. I wasn't at IBMA five mintues when I'd already heard the Charlie resigning rumor, and then there was a buzz about a big legal challenge that had been filed declaring no one but Gibson will be allowed to build F model mandolins. I think it's safe to say we've heard this. On Monday I called the two sources and asked them point blank so I could, as I said "brace for impact" on the message board in case what I'd heard was true. It wasn't. I'm sure news will continue to happen with Gibson and until then that rumor is no better than one I can make up.

So Joe, is it true you're really Elvis?

AlanN

Oct-13-2004, 5:00am

No, but he he is a hunk of burnin' love http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Big Joe

Oct-13-2004, 7:48am

...Or, I could be a hunk of burning Elvis http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif . #Only so many donuts from a Detroit Mr. Donut and he could have grown six inches, gained 50 pounds, turned blonde, and bald. #Oh, and fell in love with the mandolin. #

Thank you, Scott, for setting the record straight. #Please understand we will be happy to tell the mandolin world when there is anything exciting to know about anything but we do want it to be the truth, not mindless speculation.