painless way to finger m7b5?

[taboot]

Ok, this is driving me nuts. I can spell these chords alright, and I can even come up with a few ways to sit them on the fingerboard. But I'll be jiggered if I can figure out a way to contort my fingers and PLAY the bloody things :crying: Those of you that can/do: Which fingers do you place where?

Thanks,

Christian

[mrmando]

Isn't 5565 an Am7b5? C, G, Eb, A?

You could bar all the way across at the 5th fret with the index finger, and play the Eb with your second finger. Or bar the C & G with the index, get the A with the 2nd, and mash the 3rd in to get the Eb.

Or just skip the root. The bass player will get it!

[Jim Broyles]

2133 gives you A Eb C G. Movable, named by the bottom string.

[alanh]

Those are both good. Another one that's not hard to play is Em7b5 with 3253 (Bb-E-D-G), also movable.

[Zako]

135 (Eb C A)
--Am7b5, minus b7

[Brad Weiss]

Honestly, take any minor 7th you can play (e.g. 2233, 5575, in A) find the 5th (which is the same fret on the string directly underneath the 1) and flat it - 2133, 5565. I like the Em7b5 of 3253 that Alan (hey Al!) cited, though explaining why it's a m7b5 isn't quite as elegant (the Bb is the flat 5, the E is the 1, the D is the m7th, the G is the m3rd)

[Don Stiernberg]

i almost always play the voicing Zako mentioned. If you follow that with an altered dominant chord, you'll hear nice voice leading in your rhythm part. For example on the top three strings 3-5-7(Bminb5), then on all four 7-6-7-8 (E7#5), then Aminor 2235. This seems to cover the iim7b5-V7alt-i progression without too much trouble.Of course the other alterations on the dominant(E7) are OK too--b5, b9, #9...

[Mike Bunting]

2133 gives you A Eb C G. Movable, named by the bottom string.
I love the way chords work, that voicing is also that of a rootless dom. 9 chord, in this case an F9.

[Pete Martin]

Here are the 6 m7b5 3 string voicings I like to use a lot. I occasionally use others, but I like these most. Of these, the three that use b3, b5 and b7 are the ones I like most. Click on the graphic to get the .pdf file.

62650

All these forms are useful as other chords. As an example, look at the b3, b5 and b7 voicings. One half step higher with each makes 3, 5, 7, a rootless major 7 chord.

[mandopops]

Staying w/ Don's altered chords, an easy boppish ii-V I like is:

starting on the 'D' string 787 (b min7 flat 5) then move only the 1st finger back a fret 687(E7 flat 9) then you can move up or down to resolve to the tonic:
Up 778 or down 235(A minor).

1st way means all three require very little movement.

I like doing that as an intro to any standard, either a major or minor key tune.

[Jim Broyles]

2133 gives you A Eb C G. Movable, named by the bottom string.


I love the way chords work, that voicing is also that of a rootless dom. 9 chord, in this case an F9.

Cm6, too. Call the Eb a D# and it's a Gaugsus4add9:disbelief: Rootless D7b9sus4. Eb6b5:whistling: many possibilities!:)

[rico mando]

just tune the d string down to d flat ,tune the a string up to b flat and the e string up to f. no pain on the fingers with that open chord

[Ted Eschliman]

Here is a summary from some of the mando masters: More m7b5 (from the Pros!) (http://jazzmando.com/tips/archives/000999.shtml)
Paul Glasse, Will Patton, Bruce Clausen, Don Stiernberg, and of course Pete.

I should also put in a plug for Pete's Jazz Chording for Mandolin book from Petimar Press (http://www.petimarpress.com/books.html). $10 very well spent!

[John McGann]

Another neat way to deal is to realize the m7b5 usually appears paired as a iim7b5 with a V7(b9) type chord.

Now, we don't always need to play 4 notes in a 4 note chord; in fact, you can get by fine with just the 3rd and 7th. So in the key of Cm:

Dm7b5 G7b9 can be reduced to CG-CF# (55xx 54xx). It doesn't provide complete information, nor are they even 'chords' technically, but they are known as 'guide tones' and really are the distinguishing notes of those chords. This is counter-intuitive for roots/bluegrass players, but it's not too bad- the b7 is always a whole step down from the root.

Another thing to make life easier: Dizzy Gillespie didn't think of iim7b5, but rather ivm6- which is the same chord inverted, as Jim mentions above:

DFAbC- next inversion is FAbCD- viola, Fm6, or ivm6.

Third thang: in a way, the iim7b5 can be seen as a type of V7(9)sus- imagine G in the bass on DFAbC- 5b7b9 sus4 of G...
same can be said for vanilla Dm7 G7- DFAC would be 5b79sus4- in each case resolving the sus4 to 3 gives you the V7.

Of course, Django often skipped the II chords in II V's (or IIm7/IIm7b5) and 'cut to the chase' of the V7 chord- i.e. What Is This Thing Called Love:

Standard: Gm7b5/ C7/ Fm7/Fm7/ Dm7b5/G7b9/Cmaj7/Cmaj7
Django: C7/C7/ Fm7/Fm7 /G7b9/ G7b9/ C69/C69

Psychologically- the less info the deal with, the 'easier'. The harmonic effects are really close- so if you want your ii implied, just sus the V chord ;)

[journeybear]

Cm6, too. Call the Eb a D# and it's a Gaugsus4add9 :disbelief: Rootless D7b9sus4. Eb6b5 :whistling: many possibilities! :)
What he said. (In fact, my first thought looking at 5565 was "That's a Cm6.")


just tune the d string down to d flat ,tune the a string up to b flat and the e string up to f. no pain on the fingers with that open chord
What HE said! You guys crack me up!

Another solution is to have the butler do it for you. Won't hurt you a bit. ;)

Or just stick to bluegrass ... :))

[Pete Martin]

Of course, Django often skipped the II chords in II V's (or IIm7/IIm7b5) and 'cut to the chase' of the V7 chord- i.e. What Is This Thing Called Love:

Standard: Gm7b5/ C7/ Fm7/Fm7/ Dm7b5/G7b9/Cmaj7/Cmaj7
Django: C7/C7/ Fm7/Fm7 /G7b9/ G7b9/ C69/C69



I hear this a lot in bebop solos. Often they just think V7 chord and don't bother doing anything different on the IIm7. Now the rhythm section, that is different...

[Don Stiernberg]

Once I was hanging out with a jazz guitar hero/friend of mine and he was showing me a tune, in G. I said at one point, wait, is that Am7 or D7 right there? He said.. "What's the difference?" I guess in a way that makes sense, the ii chord and V chord are the same batch of tones from different starting points for the most part. In a Joe Pass video he observes (paraphrasing of course): "Some guys see Dm7-G7 and think dorian-Mixolydian or whatever. To me that's all C."

i like to start with addressing the ii-V's as a basic tonality in this fashion, then add more detail(different starting points or one scale per chord, added tensions on the V chord) as I get more comfortable with stringing lines together on the particular tune.

[Don Stiernberg]

Wow, Ted, thanks--I just printed out the m7b5 mando sessions page--and thanks to John, Pete,Jim and everyone else here. For years I've wanted to have more than one way to handle that cadence, and now here it is!

The Mandolin cafe Jazz Board Rocks again! Thank you, thank you, thank you...

[Ted Eschliman]

Isn't it ironic how "inbred" our little jazz world is? We keep quoting each other's material, and act surprised when someone uncovers something we stole from the other guy stole from us (which we stole from someone else).
Or something like that.

[journeybear]

... I said at one point, wait, is that Am7 or D7 right there? He said.. "What's the difference?" I guess in a way that makes sense, the ii chord and V chord are the same batch of tones from different starting points for the most part. In a Joe Pass video he observes (paraphrasing of course): "Some guys see Dm7-G7 and think dorian-Mixolydian or whatever. To me that's all C."

Yeah, sometimes these things can be overanalyzed. I mean, who cares which mode it's in as long as it works? I don't need to know why it works, really (unless I'm thinking about it later), as long as it does.

Not Am7 so much, but Am - D7 involves changing just one note: 2235 2435 (no root), so yes, it's all C. ;) As Professor McGann astutely observes, "cut to the chase." And I also like what Pete was getting at - if the rhythm section (often that's just the bass) hits that passing note (in this case, the E - F#), you don't have to change; he's got it covered. Besides, you'd be throwing in a 9, which could be a cool extra coloration. Not that anyone would hear it ... :whistling:

OK, I'm going back to my Led Zeppelin from the 1969 Newport Jazz Festival now ... :cool:

[pglasse]

...Dm7b5 G7b9 can be reduced to CG-CF# (55xx 54xx).


Just so folks don't get confused, I believe the fingering and pitches John indicated are actually in the key of G minor, thus (rather than Dm7b5 G7b9) the above example indicates Am7b5 D7b9. John, by all means let me know if I've misinterpreted.

Of course, the rest of the info in this post is (per usual) spot on. Lots of great contributions from the community here.

All the best,

[i-vibe]

my apologies if anyone has suggested these already:

Dmb5 7655

or Dm7b5 5655

doesn't get much easier to finger than those!

[Don Stiernberg]

aren't those A naturals on the 5th fret of the E string?

[John Soper]

Yes they are. The E string should be muted (x) or dropped 1/2 step.

Continuing the "susV7" train of thought and using the bottom 3 strings, a 5-3-5-x -->7-6-8-x -->4-3-5-x movement on the bottom 3 strings gives a nice Dmin7b5 --> G7 feel and introduces the flat 9 of G (Ab) = D string 6th fret on the second move and gets into diminished chord territory- but wait there's more! The Ab IS the b5 of Dmin and that 768 is a D diminished triad (also Ab or F diminished) and connects to the 435 rootless G7 (also a B dim triad)- why the minor b57 is sometimes called a half-diminished chord (makes me half-demented to think about it sometimes).

[i-vibe]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh...my bad!

[Don Julin]

Not very much to add here after all of these jazz monsters chime in but the OP asked about painless fingerings. Joe Pass once stated that he did not play any difficult to make chords. He tended to use that he could easily reach with his hands. His reason was that if he worked really hard to learn to play this chord that twisted his hand into shape requiring more than usual stretching etc., he would loose that much time being present with the music. His goal was to be very present with the music and respond to what was going on in the music. With that said Here is one of my favorite ways of playing Am7b5/D7(b9)/Gm.

556(Am7b5)/546(D7b9)/355(Gm).

Talk about painless.

[40bpm]

I'm loving this discussion.

My 2 tricks for finding quick and easy m7b5 chords are:
1) play the minor triad 1 1/2 steps up (e.g. for F#m7b5 move up 1 1/2 steps to the Am triad)

2) play a rootless dominant 7th down 1 1/2 steps (e.g. for F#m7b5 move down 1 1/2 steps to a rootless D7).

These are especially helpful when playing an octave mandolin or mandocello where the stretches are sometimes difficult.

The final voice choice depends on where I'm coming from and going to, so I try several variations to find what's most pleasing to my ears and easy on the hands. When possible, I really like the tension of the full 4 note chords.

[John McGann]

Just so folks don't get confused, I believe the fingering and pitches John indicated are actually in the key of G minor, thus (rather than Dm7b5 G7b9) the above example indicates Am7b5 D7b9. John, by all means let me know if I've misinterpreted.

Of course, the rest of the info in this post is (per usual) spot on. Lots of great contributions from the community here.

All the best,

Thanks Paul, you are correct, I should slow down!

BTW Dan Bui is at Berklee now, and is a mighty fine guy and player- and we are both Paul Glasse fans!

[Perry]

Thanks now I can cringe a little less when that m7b5 chord symbol comes up.

A few people mentioned this Joe Pass DVD (http://www.amazon.com/Solo-Jazz-Guitar-Joe-Pass/dp/B000EBGENM/ref=sr_1_1?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1285178174&sr=1-1)

Even if you don't play guitar it's fantastic to watch and learn from a master so at ease with his instrument. His pragmatic wisdom is a hoot.