10-string Mando in Choro and Brazilian jazz

[Tom Wright]

Found some nice stuff by Hamilton de Holanda, including an entirely solo CD called "Intimo". Seems to be a common axe for choro and improv. I guess it's called a "bandolim" in Brazil.

I've been enjoying developing a solo act for my 5-string electric, and hope to buy either a 10-string or a 5-string acoustic. After hearing Holanda I'm leaning towards the 10, as a nice change from the electric 5. But I'm going to be looking for a category here, if I pursue the 10-string.

The Brazilian ones are larger than typical mandolins in body size, but seem about the same scale. Buchanan's 10 is also mandolin scale, at least it's the same as mine, although his regular mandolin is a bit shorter. The Buchanan body size is larger, approximately twice the internal volume of his mandolin.

I like the range for playing jazz with chords, and also for solo Bach, since I can use the cello suites.

[Jim Garber]

Others more knowledgeable in choro and bandolims will chime in here, but I believe that the 10 string bandolim is a relatively recent innovation and earlier bandolims were 8 string like mandolins.

[Ted Eschliman]

Jim is correct, although the 10-string has been a little more popular in Europe much longer. Also, Lloyd Loar himself favored his 10-string mandola back in the 20's.

I have a 10-string in a 14-1/2" scale, and a fanned-fret converted dola, 14-1/2 to 16" and am now convinced the longer scale is the only way to get richness out of the lower courses. To my ear, the C course on a 10-string bandolim can get pretty flabby and doesn't offer a healthy fundamental in the lower range. All personal taste, though.

[Jim Garber]

I was talking more about choro, but Ted is certainly correct about the ten-string mandolins in general. Actually I had a 10-string vega from the late teens. There were 2 variants of those, one mandolinnscale and one more mandola. I think the mandola one was prob more sensible. I had the mandolin one and it sounded best with the lower course up to D instead of C.

I haven't played one but a fan fret makes a lot of sense for a 5 course instrument.

[Tom Wright]

Glad to know others here have experience with this instrument. Thanks for the info.

The ease of using the small scale is why we violists use an instrument with lousy acoustics for the C string. An appropriate-scale instrument has a body 20" long instead of the typical 16", and has to be played like a cello, upright between the legs. (The Hutchinson family of violins.) I have considered simply using a mandola, but that is pretty long-scale for the violin-type fingering I want to use.

I'm content to have a slightly funky C string, to also have the easier playing of the smaller scale. Works pretty well on my electric, and that is only 14". The Brazilian instruments and the Buchanan seem large enough in body to yield a useful if not huge-sounding C string.

[Larry S Sherman]

I'm with Ted on this issue...the 10-String mandola solution works well and I don't really notice the extra length. My 16" scale Old Wave 10-String (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?63573-Old-Wave-453-10-String-Mandola-%28C-G-D-A-E%29&highlight=bussman) works great for Choro, and is versatile for anything else not requiring the F-Hole sound.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=60137&d=1278003507

Does it sound like my bandolim? No, not really. But then again, although I love 10-stringers like Hamilton, Jacob, Eva, Linda, Dudu, Danilo, etc I love Choro played by Will Patton and Mike Marshall on six-stings just as much.

I recently spoke to Mike Marshall about his L.Smart fan-fret 10-string and he now seems very enthusiastic for this approach. The fan fret gives him the mandolin scale for the E strings and his C strings are an inch longer than my mandola. But he's going for the F-5 sound, not an oval hole Gibson sound or a flat-top bandolim sound. Of course, I don't think his hands would even notice the difference between a mandolin and mandola.

He mentioned that his setup is such that the first straight fret is the 5th, whereas his previous model didn't become straight until the 12th fret. I'm still not sold on the fan fret concept, but maybe after I try one in person I'll be convinced?

Larry

[Tom Wright]

That's a beauty, all right.

[Doug Hoople]

I'm with Ted on this issue...the 10-String mandola solution works well and I don't really notice the extra length. My 16" scale Old Wave 10-String works great for Choro, and is versatile for anything else not requiring the F-Hole sound.

Hi Larry,

Just curious. The limiting factor on long-scale mandolins seems to be the E string. I find that it gets very pinched even at 14-1/2 inches. What gauge string do you use for your E string, and how does it feel? I can only imagine that it would be bar taut and unpleasantly harsh. I'd be interested to hear otherwise.

[Doug Hoople]

Jim is correct, although the 10-string has been a little more popular in Europe much longer. Also, Lloyd Loar himself favored his 10-string mandola back in the 20's.

I have a 10-string in a 14-1/2" scale, and a fanned-fret converted dola, 14-1/2 to 16" and am now convinced the longer scale is the only way to get richness out of the lower courses. To my ear, the C course on a 10-string bandolim can get pretty flabby and doesn't offer a healthy fundamental in the lower range. All personal taste, though.

What's interesting is that the Brazilian bandolims have a very short scale length, 13-1/2 inches, more along the lines of Italian bowlbacks than Gibson-style arched mandolins.

I think richness in the lower courses, along with thunder in the lower courses, can be a matter of taste. I don't hear much deficiency in the sound that Hamilton gets. His lower course sound has real depth and solid, sublte articulation. The bandolim, in general, has a lighter, more elastic sound. Less thunder in the bass, both on the 8- and 10-string versions.

It might just be a matter of getting used to it, but I actually like the bass response I hear in Hamilton's playing.

[Larry S Sherman]

Hi Larry,

Just curious. The limiting factor on long-scale mandolins seems to be the E string. I find that it gets very pinched even at 14-1/2 inches. What gauge string do you use for your E string, and how does it feel? I can only imagine that it would be bar taut and unpleasantly harsh. I'd be interested to hear otherwise.

Hi Doug,

I was right there with you on my concerns when I began pursuing this instrument, but that's not the case here at all. No "cheese slicer" effect at all. Bill originally equipped it with 08's, and that's what I'm currently using. Tone is very consistent across the strings, and it is quite playable everywhere. I wouldn't have kept it otherwise.

I'm using a standard mandola set plus the 08's for the high E's. It's really great to have the extra low range without sacrificing the high register. If you're ever in my neck of the woods let me know.

Larry

[Larry S Sherman]

It might just be a matter of getting used to it, but I actually like the bass response I hear in Hamilton's playing.

Me too. I love the sound of Ham's 10-string.

Larry

[Doug Hoople]

Hi Doug,

I was right there with you on my concerns when I began pursuing this instrument, but that's not the case here at all. No "cheese slicer" effect at all. Bill originally equipped it with 08's, and that's what I'm currently using. Tone is very consistent across the strings, and it is quite playable everywhere. I wouldn't have kept it otherwise.

I'm using a standard mandola set plus the 08's for the high E's. It's really great to have the extra low range without sacrificing the high register. If you're ever in my neck of the woods let me know.

Larry

Well, part of the answer is that you're using 8's. I didn't even know they made them that light. Must be a really feathery sound, although at 16" maybe not.

I'd love to hear it and try it out. My sister lives in Springfield, so when I get out that way, I'll be sure to look you up.

[Larry S Sherman]

My sister lives in Springfield, so when I get out that way, I'll be sure to look you up.

That's about 45 minutes from me. I drive through Springfield twice a day for work. I'm sure a 10-string tasting can be arranged. :)

Larry

[Doug Hoople]

That's about 45 minutes from me. I drive through Springfield twice a day for work. I'm sure a 10-string tasting can be arranged. :)

Larry

Sounds pretty tasty to me!

I've got a fan-fret 10-string 14" on the E, 16" on the C, and the straight fret at the 5th. It's definitely experimental and not entirely successful, but it's got some very interesting qualities.

Won't be soon, though. A trip to the East Coast is months away. Sigh!

[alb]

Some of the "flabby" sound you folks might be describing for the lower C could likely be due to the kind of strings they use down there. I was quite amazed when I opened my first set of Brazilian strings, they are very much more like rubber bands than steel strings. Sort of like silk and steel. A very different feel. My experience is the instrument is the sound, and the strings do contribute, but my 8 string bandolim seems to be getting it's tone way more from the quality of the rosewood (and it's now a 10 year old instrument getting heavy play), bone bridge, and build quality, than strings or even pick.

Tom, you might also look into an amplified bandolim, if you can find one. I just added a K&K twinspot to my bandolim, looks like hell as I found the best sound to be below and to the right of the right foot of the bridge and above and forward of the left foot, but it is delivering a very sweet reproduction, running through a Baggs pre and a small battery powered Crate (amazingly good sound, I must say). I took this radical step (making my beautiful instrument have two black dots and wire), as I'm worried about playing with a bunch of drummers this week. (I'll likely reinstall under the bridge feet when I get home). I'll ask Ted Falcon about his thoughts on the 10 string vs. 8, as I'm on my way to Brazil Camp 2010, where he and Alessandro Penezzi are teaching. Larry, have you tried stringing your 10 string with Brazilian strings?

[Larry S Sherman]

Larry, have you tried stringing your 10 string with Brazilian strings?

I have not, but then again I do not suffer from a tone issue with my 10-string (I love it exactly as it is).

On my 8-String bandolim I use Tomastics, which sound great. I've never tried (or even seen) a pack of Brazilian strings. If I can ever figure out how to acquire a Tercio 10-string then I'll look into that option.

Larry

[Don Stiernberg]

Just got back from teaching at Carlo's Academia...DuDu was there too, and his ten string sounds really great--very even response everywhere. Of course that's him, his heart ,his hands, etc..I don't know the luthier but i do know he uses a .54 C string and I think a .10 E...A visit to dudumaia.com might reveal more. It's a beautiful sound.

[Ted Eschliman]

Jean Paul Charles recommended a .61 gg C string for the 10-string he built for me. I didn't know whether to play it or tow cars with it. I've since backed it down to a .48, but I also use the D'addario electric guitar chrome series flatwound with the ball removed.
Hardly a Brazilian sound.

[John Eubanks]

I guess I should chime in here. I have been playing a 10 string bandolim for about 6 months now and am really happy with the playability and the sound of the instrument. It was made for me by Tercio Ribeiro in Rio. The scale of the instrument is 35 cm. He uses a 34 cm scale on his 8 string bandolims and the fretboard is flat. I am using phospher bronze loop end guitar strings gauge .53 for the c strings and a set of elixer 10-34 for the top 4 strings. Because of the tailpiece configuration I need a loop end string and haven't found a 54 yet. The instrument has a bronze tailpiece which gives the c string a spooky church bell like quality, if that makes sense. The instrument has a very even response everywhere, to quote Don, and the c string seems to be proportionately powerful. The tone quality of this instrument is such that many styles of music sound great.
A big step for me was starting to use the pointed end of a medium pick. I had tried playing bandolim with heavy rounded picks, you all know which ones I mean, and going to the medium really helped me better understand what the bandolim is about and begin to learn how to get the best out of that instrument. It sounds like a lot of the frustration of bandolinists here could possibly come from trying to approach it as we would a tone bar f or a style mandolin. When I go back to my Collings F style I change back to a Wegen pick, but be careful, after playing 10 string for several months, 8 string seems very small. Oh well this is getting long, but I guess as the relatively new idea of 10 string bandolim/mandolin construction evolves it will be interesting to see how the 2 approaches will resolve similar issues.

[Tom Wright]

Because of the tailpiece configuration I need a loop end string and haven't found a 54 yet.

You can crush the ball of a normal guitar string and extract it. D'Addario's ball ends break into small pieces and come out easily, if squeezed with a vise-grip pliers parallel to the loop, avoiding mashing the wire itself.

[Doug Hoople]

A big step for me was starting to use the pointed end of a medium pick. I had tried playing bandolim with heavy rounded picks, you all know which ones I mean, and going to the medium really helped me better understand what the bandolim is about and begin to learn how to get the best out of that instrument.

+1 for the medium teardrop.

I've been playing all the usual suspects for years on my arched mandolins (f-style,a-style, 2-pointers), the Dawgs and Proplecs and Goldengates and Wegens and BlueChip 50s. They're great, but they're all wrong for the bandolim.

The instrument comes alive under medium picks, epecially the lower courses, which have a sort of satisfying spring to their touch (and sound) under the mediums that just isn't there with the heavies we use to drive the archtops.

Nice to hear from you here on the Cafe, John. We'd love to hear more from you. You've been playing bandolins and choro for longer than most of us have even known that the form existed. And, until just recently, you owned three bandolins concurrently, while many of us are just getting around to our first!

How do I know this? Because I'm now the proud owner of your second bandolim, the Antonio Mauricio Barros Vibrações model, with maple back and sides, a fantastic-sounding, fantastic-playing instrument that is teaching me much about what makes a bandolim tick.

A Cafe denizen for a very long time and with only 8 posts. C'mon, John, you should be a regular here on this forum. You have a lot to tell us!

Welcome back!

[marcos p]

Hamilton is thinking to ask elixir to do a 10 string set
let`s see what unfolds

[alb]

The pick issue has been interesting. Mike M. of course seems to be (in the classes of his I've been in) very much against using anything but a heavy(ier) pick as he always uses, and demonstrate the tone of the pick by having us all drop our picks from two feet up off a table to show their 'sound', but Mike doesn't play a bandolim. Dudu, Ted Falcon, Jesse Appleman, and others playing bandolims that I've met seem to use lighter (medium or even lighter) picks and often hold them much closer to the tip, while often getting their attack from a finger motion rather than a wrist. You can see this in the recent Kennedy Center performance of Ronaldo. I myself have gone to playing the super flabby picks that come with the Rouxinol's from Brazil. I understand the Roux's are not the favorite string down there, but they seem to be popular enough, and between the strings and the pick seem to give me more of a bandolim sound than mandolin. Switching back to heavier picks brings the tone back closer to 'bluegrass' like quality. Roux's are not available on JustStrings, though, so maybe Lark in the Morning can import some, which they said they usually stock.

[alb]

10 string rouxinol strings62423
only available in Brazil apparently...

[John Eubanks]

Yes Tom,
I have experimented with breaking out the ball ends out of several brands of strings. some have larger loops than others. Now I ams using elixir .53 with polyweb coating. The .53's with nanoweb don't seem to work for me.
A 10 string set from elixir would be great.

[Doug Hoople]

The pick issue has been interesting. Mike M. of course seems to be (in the classes of his I've been in) very much against using anything but a heavy(ier) pick as he always uses, and demonstrate the tone of the pick by having us all drop our picks from two feet up off a table to show their 'sound', but Mike doesn't play a bandolim.

The first thing that Mike did when I showed him the Barros was to observe that a change of picks was in order, that the heavies he normally recommended were a poor choice for bandolim. He pulled out a random assortment and tried about a dozen picks. Both of us settled quickly on a medium teardrop as the best of the lot for these instruments.

btw, if anyone feels like spending a lot of money on a pick, Blue Chip makes a medium teardrop, the TD35. I had a Blue Chip 50 tricorner that I really liked on my American mandolins, so I pulled the trigger on their teardrop for the bandolim. Bingo. Has the signature Blue Chip feel, but the right response for the bandolim.

You can't beat the price on the string-packet Rouxinol picks, but I haven't gotten comfortable with them, at least not yet.

[Tom Wright]

Well, I've done it and ordered a 10-string. After plenty rumination and investigation I'm going with a celtic-style mandolin from Thomas Buchanan. Mailed a cheque as deposit for eventual delivery after the new year.

It will be done in Indian rosewood back and sides and ebony fingerboard and bridge. His bridges are glued-on pin style, which seems to yield a more guitar-like response. (Less "pop" and more sustain.) This would make it a better partner to my electric, and it might get a soundhole magnetic pickup eventually.

Now I can tackle Dudu's sheet music which goes down into C territory. But I don't like the bandolim sound as much as the tunes, so I'll be playing my flat-pickin' flattop.

http://www.folkmandolin.co.uk/instruments/10mandolin.htm

[Tom Pinit]

The first thing that Mike did when I showed him the Barros was to observe that a change of picks was in order, that the heavies he normally recommended were a poor choice for bandolim. He pulled out a random assortment and tried about a dozen picks. Both of us settled quickly on a medium teardrop as the best of the lot for these instruments.

btw, if anyone feels like spending a lot of money on a pick, Blue Chip makes a medium teardrop, the TD35. I had a Blue Chip 50 tricorner that I really liked on my American mandolins, so I pulled the trigger on their teardrop for the bandolim. Bingo. Has the signature Blue Chip feel, but the right response for the bandolim.

You can't beat the price on the string-packet Rouxinol picks, but I haven't gotten comfortable with them, at least not yet.

Interesting. I had been playing with Wegen M150s on my Batista bandolim and recently switched to the Wegen TF140 (you know, the one with the "speed holes" LOL). I have been enjoying the playability and tone with the TF140. This thread makes me want to go back and try the Roux picks I have lying around, playing them the way Al described...gripping down. From what I remember before, I had a hard time keeping up in faster passages with those really light picks.

[Jim MacDaniel]

Larry -- beautiful instrument, and it sounds like a great all around player. What strings gauges do you use in order to tune it CGDAE?