flat top vs arched top Citterns

[EvilTwinSkippy]

Can someone explain the tonal differences of a flat top Cittern (or OM or bouzouki) vs an arch (or carved top)? I know it can vary by builder, but are there some general differences between the sound of the two types of tops.

thanks

Jack

[Tom Wright]

The archtops are carved, properly, and the shape makes the top very stiff. The flat top is mechanically weaker, and is easier to vibrate but not as strong. Most flat mandos have a bevel behind the bridge, I think. That stiffens the top some.

Seems safe to assume it's roughly the same as guitars, with archtops being more midrange, focused sound, flattops more even, spread sound. One maker goes all the way to glued-on bridge, like a guitar. Thomas Buchanan used to make guitars but is now doing the Celtic group of double-strings, mandolin through Citterns and zouks. Some sound samples there.
http://www.folkmandolin.co.uk/instruments/index.htm

This store has sound samples for most of its stock:
http://www.themandolinstore.com/Scripts/default.asp

[mandotopia]

Archtops have a tighter sound with more definition. Flat tops have a more flabby sound. I have a flat top Weber Tamarack #2 Mandocello (I love it) and I have played quite a few Gibson K's. I prefer the flat top if I am playing as a rhythm instrument (chords) but like the archtop if I am playing lines.

[chinatogalway]

I have to say that this really is a PER INSTRUMENT subject and not a general.

I feel the Flat top has much more attack and life to them , where as carved appears warmer and with more depth.

If you are singing and want a fantastic accompaniment, or playing something slower ..........carved

if you are looking for drive and attack ...........flattop

but like I said it should only be on a per instrument evaulation.


I love a top quality flattop..........in my opinion,

Kieron

[first string]

I think one of the challenges (and joys) of CBOMs, is that there are a heck of a lot more variables than you find in most other instruments. Archtop vs flattop is only one of them. When you throw in the fact that there is no standard scale length, no standard soundhole(s), body shape/size/depth, tonewoods, etc, it becomes pretty difficult to isolate what is responsible for any particular aspect of an individual instrument's sound. Generally speaking, I agree with most of what has been written. I would say archtops are more powerful/cutting, and are focused more toward the midrange. Flattops provide a fuller/rounder sound. I like both, though at the moment, I lean towards the former. It's a little hard for me to get my head around though, because when it comes to guitars, I pretty much loathe archtops. My guess would be that the stiffer top on an arched instrument, really needs the double course to truly drive it. Or perhaps most archtop guitars are just too darn big, and thus demand more energy than the strings can really deliver. I do like the tone that David Rawlings gets from his archtop, but he plays that tiny little Epiphone, and not some 16 or 17 inch monster. I'm also very intrigued by archtops with oval sound holes instead of the usual ff. To me, most flattops (guitars and CBOMs) don't have enough volume to really compete with the other instruments in Bluegrass or Celtic jams/sessions, but the archtop instruments often don't have enough sustain to really be pleasing when played solo. I'm hoping that there is a way to sort of get the best of both worlds, or at least to find a happy medium.

Sorry for the long post. I've been thinking a lot about these things lately.

[Tom Wright]

First string identifies my dilemma. Solo or group? I'm more likely going to be entertaining myself or playing solo than find a slot in a band---too busy now with day job, and getting too old to appeal to a group of youngsters after I retire. So I'm leaning towards the Buchanan as a satisfying solo instrument.

I love the melodic sound of those carved-top axes, like my viola. But the typical solo axe, other than keyboards, is a flattop guitar, whether played by John Lennon or Woodie Guthrie or Elvis or Beck. So I'm working up my courage to order a Buchanan 10-string mandolin in a 5-string version. On that point, how essential does this crowd find the doubled strings of the mandolin family? I agree they sound cool but hate how they make it hard to get a clean sound and an expressive vibrato. If I undo half the strings on my orchestra mandolin it seems to have the same projective power, just without the shimmer. Does make tremolo a bit more grainy, so acts against a mandolin expectation.

But I suspect that in the days of gut strings and early steel one could expect broken strings to be a constant companion. Especially the picking would have been hard on strings---early lute styles were fingerpicked or strummed, I think. The quill plectrums favored by oud players are probably gentle, but not very loud. Tremolo is just a way to be heard with a feeble axe.

Double-stringing makes the string a little more stable in pitch and attack, useful with flabby gut strings. But definitely not needed with modern string design, which one can beat the #### out of without fear of easy breakage. And as I noted above, I'm more likely going to be playing solo than in a group so I think I will go for what guitars use--single courses, not doubles. Not too many 12-string players in any genre, pace Leo Kottke.

[Ben Vierra]

I haven't played enough octave mandolins to be able to make generalizations as to their sound, but I want to pitch in and suggest a different set of categories--we like to talk about "flattops" versus "carved tops" but I just don't think that really covers the many building styles that are out there. What do you all think about:

carved tops
f-holes
oval hole

flat tops
pin bridge
floating bridge

"bent" tops (perhaps this category is just theoretical when speaking of OMs)
bowlbacks
flatbacks

Then you have teardrop-shaped bodies versus guitar-shaped, different scale lengths, . . .

Part of the fun of these instruments is that there are so many good ways to make them!

[chinatogalway]

if you get the chance go to Rogers Zoukfest, and check out a whole bunch of crazy shapes and variables........you will find your love there....or two or three

in thinking, is the actually many builders MAKING carved tops....sobell, graham mac donald ( i think )......s.o.smith........hhhhmmmmm, anyone else

[first string]

in thinking, is the actually many builders MAKING carved tops....sobell, graham mac donald ( i think )......s.o.smith........hhhhmmmmm, anyone else

Flyde, Forster, Mowry, Brock, Shippey, Nyberg, and a handful of others...But your point is well taken.

[Marcus CA]

If I undo half the strings on my orchestra mandolin it seems to have the same projective power, just without the shimmer.

For me, any instrument in the mandolin family without the shimmer is a mando castrato. :disbelief: There's a lot of musical magic in that shimmer. Wouldn't play without it!

[Goodin]

i much prefer the tone of the flat tops. clean, warm, and sparkly. they are more closely related in tone to the greek bouzouki.