What A-model did Sam Bush Play?

[fatt-dad]

Dear NG,

I noticed the vintage bluegrass photos (subject of another post) and was looking through my Jack Tottle Bluegrass Mandolin book and at both instances there were photos of a long-haired, youthful Sam Bush with an A-model mandolin. (This was likley the early seventies when the photos were taken.)

Anybody have a clue what he had in those days. 'Cause, I may have to get one to go for the early Sam sound. (I'm working on Lonesome Fiddle Blues.)

fatt-dad

[JimRichter]

I could be mistaken, but I believe Sam played one of Givens' early A5 copies (based on Tut Taylor's "Griffith" Loar A5).

Jim

[telepbrman]

I have the Mandolin World News with him on the cover, I'll go back and reread it to see if there is any info...dy.

[John Rosett]

i remember reading about sam playing a re-topped teens A many years ago.
john

[JimRichter]

Sorry, got the maker wrong. Thought it was Givens, but it seems to be Randy Wood (went back to Tut Taylor's website and he mentions Sam playing a Randy Wood made A5 copy at that time). Thought it was Givens since he was doing work for Tut at that time (but then again, he and Wood were working together too).

Jim

[Scotti Adams]

..I talked to Doyle Lawson about this issue awhile back. When Doyle first went with the Gents he was playing an A model with a long neck....he said he and Sam were playing the same make and the only 2 that he knew of. But..I just got up...and its early and all of my senses havent came to me yet...and I cant remember...when I come around Im sure to think of it and I will come back and post....oh....I know what he said wasnt a Randy Wood or a modified Gibson.

[AlanN]

I asked that very question to BU must have been 15 years ago. Remember seeing a photo of the ca. 1971 CG and Doyle was sporting an A model. His answer, as appeared in the magazine "It was a converted A-50". And by "converted", I think he meant longer neck, regraduated top. I think he used that mandolin to record his classic, wrote-the-book- break to Little Bessie.

[fatt-dad]

From what I could see, it certainly had the A5 scale length and what looked to be a "snakehead" type headstock. When we figure this out, I would then be interested in how/when did he get his F-5 "hoss".

f-d

[JimRichter]

My understanding is that Bush's F5 belonged to Norman Blake. Norman did a bunch of modifying to it (sanding/thinning the top) and ended up trading/selling it to Tut Taylor. Bush bought it from Tut Taylor. This was all around 1972 or 3.

[Darryl Wolfe]

I'm not sure whether he had more than one...but, he definately played an A-50 that either Randy Wood or Givens had converted to A-5 style with a new long neck. This was around 1970-71 when Tony Rice was "discovered" at Camp Springs. He got Hoss shortly thereafter.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Regarding Hoss, I have pictures of Sam with it BEFORE it was modified

[Rroyd]

I haven't seen the photos referred to, but it's possible that one or more of them might be of the real thing. Tut Taylor had told Sam he would sell him the Griffith Loar A, (but sold it to another buyer instead) and as I recall, had loaned it to Sam to play for a while. I don't know how long he had it, and I don't think he ever recorded with it, but perhaps one of the photos was taken during that time.

[rixter]

"When Doyle first went with the Gents he was playing an A model with a long neck....he said he and Sam were playing the same make and the only 2 that he knew of."

I was looking at a dvd of Doyle and Quicksilver last night that was filmed I think around 1994. He played an "A" that I couldn't identify for over half of the video, with the remainder on the Pag. Would that be the same "A", does anybody know? Interesting discussion.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here is what I remember... I was at the Camp Springs festival when Sam and the Alliance played. This was during the New Deal String Band and Lawson with J. D. Crowe days. Norman B. was there, Tut was there. Tut had the A-5 at that festival and Sam played it some. Sam had the converted A-50 which he had been playing for quite a while. Tut had Hoss that he had just purchased with him. It was only a few months later that Sam bought Hoss in it's original shiny condition. Not long afterward, Hoss was worked on. Tut had just sold the Griffith F5 to Norman. It was much later that Tut sold the A-5 (1976) and he called me first to sell it, but, I had just bought the Griffith F-5 as my first Loar. In 1976, Sam was indelibly attached to Hoss and well on his way with The Newgrass Revival.

[fatt-dad]

So, in whose hands is the converted A-50? It would be interesting to know how that instrument holds up to many of the fine mandolins being made today.

[Scotti Adams]

Ok Darryl...help me out here..Ive racked my brain all day and cant for the life of me remember who Doyle said did the A5 conversion he played back then...think of some builders in the 60's and 70's...not Randy or Tut......the only thing I can think of is Ward Im pretty sure thats not it...or was it...a CE Ward....maybe...hmmm....god....a brain is a terrible thing to waste..He said that Sam and he were the only two at the time who had them..

[Paul Kotapish]

Well I can't prove it with any documentation, but back in the early '70s I heard Sam's A-50 referred to as a "Givens Conversion," and as I understood it then, Bob Givens and Tut Taylor had done a number of these before they began recreating their own versions of the rare Loar A-5. I saw the Bush mandolin once or twice, and it looked a bit odd. The longer neck required a funny placement of the bridge on the top, and the whole thing looked a tad lopsided. Sounded amazing, though.

I was very interested in this conversion at the time, because I was playing an old A-50 with the original neck. It had a killer sound, but I was getting frustrated with the short neck and thought that the conversion might be a good way to go. Never had it done, though, and I passed it on when I got one of the very early Stan Miller F-5s.

[mikeyes]

Sam played an A-50 that was converted to an A-5 by Randy Woods. I know because I have one (#10) and they are rare birds. Randy told me he made one for Sam Busha and for Doyle Lawson. The one I have was originally made for Larry Sledge when Randy was part owner of the Pickin' Parlor in Nashville.
I know of one more of these fine instruments which is in the hands of a friend of mine. I understand about 13 of them were made. It was a fleeting project of Randy Woods in the 70's and mine is dated 1973. I might be able to post pictures if anyone is interested.

[mandoJeremy]

Darryl, you know that particular Fern Loar up in Asheville I mentioned to you some time back on the Loar thread that doesn't get played? #When I last played it the owner told me that Sam really wanted it and had tried to buy it from him. #That was probably four or five years ago. #Do you know if there is any truth to that?

[Lefty&French]

Quote :I noticed the vintage bluegrass photos (subject of another post) and was looking through my Jack Tottle Bluegrass Mandolin book and at both instances there were photos of a long-haired, youthful Sam Bush with an A-model mandolin. (This was likley the early seventies when the photos were taken.)

This one ?

[mikeyes]

I keep this same Tottle picture with my RW A5 Conversion to show to anyone who is interested. Mine looks just like the one that Sam is holding. And I looked just as young when I bought it in 1975 from George Gruhn after Larry Sledge traded it in. I asked Larry about this instrument about a year ago. He said that a family member had the A-50 and Larry had it converted at the Pickin' Parlor. He played it for a while and then bought a different mandolin (an older F style, I think) but still misses the A-5 conversion.
Geroge Gruhn said that it was the same conversion Sam Bush and Doyle Lawson had played. A week after I got it, Buddy Spicher told me that it was the best A model he had ever heard. (Actually he first said, "Boy, that thing is loud, where did you get it?")
I had seem a similar instrument in the hands of a friend of mine (#9 or so in the series, Randy numbered and dated the later ones on the label inside) and really wanted one.
As for how well they held up, Very Well! is my verdict. I still play it regularly in spite of owning a Triggs F5L and a Fern V and it continues to draw praise when it is heard in public.

[Lefty&French]

Some notes on the LP "Friar Tut-Tut Taylor" :

[Scotti Adams]

..hmmm...looks like you guys know what you are talking about...makes me wonder why Doyle told me differently..

[fatt-dad]

So what's this? (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3751881177&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT)

f-d

(by the way this is facinating to me.)

[mandoJeremy]

I wonder sometimes if "anonymous" people post threads to boost sales on the Cafe or Ebay. Think about it, this thread shows up asking about Sam's A model mando when this thread is going? Maybe I am just paranoid. I still wouldn't bid on it.

[mandoJeremy]

I mean really...the sticker says it was made in '45 but you have a Bozeman label in it also! Where does Bob come in on this?

[Rroyd]

Sam and I were discussing the Loar A this spring, and he commented that Tut had promised the mandolin to him when he decided to sell it, but that he didn't even contact him to let him know it was going on the market. #He said that even though at the time it was out of his price range, he would have figured out some way to raise the money, as that mandolin was "the one" that did it for him. I guess that even though "Hoss" was in the picture, he still hadn't gotten over the A.

[mikeyes]

The ebay instrument is not one of the RW conversions. For one thing, mine has a bound headstock with a flowerpot on it just like the original A5L. Also there is a label in mine with his signature. They are not even close.

[Keith Wallen]

Regarding Hoss, I have pictures of Sam with it BEFORE it was modified
Darryl - Can we get a look at those pictures?

Thanks,

[june39]

I sold that A5 conversion to Doyle Lawson when he first arrived in Washington to join the Country Gentlemen. It was an A50 conversion that I used as a backup to my '39 F5 while I was in the Grass Menagerie. For the life of me I cannont remember where I got it, possibly Al Jones. I have no idea who did the conversion.

Doug McCash

[Darryl Wolfe]

Regarding the A-50/A-5 conversion, it was Randy Wood or Givens..so Mikeyes, must be right there.

I'm aware of the Fern Loar in Asheville, and it doesn't get played much. It has the rare gold parts as I recall

I'll scan the Hoss pictures and post

thanks

[AlanN]

Doug M.

Thanks for the update on the Doyle A-50, nice to have that info.

[mikeyes]

Here is the headstock from my Randy Wood Conversion A50. Nothing like the ebay mandolin.

[fatt-dad]

I wonder sometimes if "anonymous" people post threads to boost sales on the Cafe or Ebay. #Think about it, this thread shows up asking about Sam's A model mando when this thread is going? #Maybe I am just paranoid. #I still wouldn't bid on it.
MandoJeramy,

What anonymous post are you referring to? Is there some concern focused on my original posting or bringing the message board's attention to the ebay auction? Maybe I'm being paranoid thinking that you find some hidden agenda on my part? Well nothing intended - I posted a genuine question about Sam Bush's A-model mandolin and then happened to notice something on ebay that seemed to relate to this topic. Nothing else (at least on my part).

fatt if-you-want-my-name-and-email-check-my-cafe-profile dad

[mikeyes]

And the back of the neck. No comparison.

[fatt-dad]

(p.s., the ebay auction began four days prior to this thread.)

f-d

[mandoJeremy]

Oops, sorry fatt-dad. I didn't even look to see that you had started this thread before I opened my big mouth. What I was trying to say is that maybe people see a thread like this and then decide to sell something just like, especially when that Ebay mando is not even a Givens conversion. Oh well, sorry.

[mandoJeremy]

Well, I guess that just shuts down my theory. #Oh well. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[mandoryan]

Cool pics Mikeyes. Do you have any of the full front. Thanks, Ryan

[mikeyes]

The front

[Darryl Wolfe]

Mikeyes, there's no question that is Randy Wood's work. It appears to be circa '68 as was my F12 conversion. It had the same finish and recognizable inlay nuances

[Russ Jordan]

Here's what Doyle says about his A50 conversion. from comando CGOW archives at
http://www.co-mando.com/resources/CGOW/lawson.php
------------
Q - So, tell the story of the CE Ward A50 conversion that you played when you were with the Gents.

A - Before I joined the country Gentlemen in August 1971, I was playing guitar with JD Crowe and I didn't even own a mandolin. When I got to Washington DC to start playing with the Gentlemen, I had to get a mandolin. There was a group called the Grass Menagerie and one of the members had a Gibson A50 conversion mandolin and I bought this mandolin. The conversion was done by CE Ward of Charlotte, North Carolina. I recorded "The Award Winning Country Gentlemen", and played the 1972 Japan tour with this mandolin. It was a great little mandolin but it was a little week when playing along side the powerful 5-string banjo of Bill Emerson. After I acquired my Paganoni #9, I traded the A50 to George Gruhn for a 1960 Martin D28. I sold that guitar to my sister-in-law and later bought it back. The A50 was in North Bend, IN the last I heard.
----------------------------------------

[AlanN]

gee, straight from the horse's mouth.

Thanks, Russ.

[mikeyes]

It's very possible that the Doyle Lawson A50 conversion was not a Randy Wood, although I was told it was. Randy did make an F5 for him (number 2 or 3) and when I asked about the A50 conversions, he thought that he had made one of those for Doyle Lawson too. But he also told me that his memory for that time was a little fuzzy and he had no records to refer to.
There is no question about the maker of Sam Bush's A50 Conversion, however (or Larry Sledge's <G>).

[Mark 10]

Can't you ask Mr bush, or doesn't anyone know where he lives?

[Mark 10]

Sorry, Forgot to sign
Regards
Mark 10

[Scotti Adams]

Im tellin ya guys...Doyle told me the guys name..it wasnt Randy Wood...Im still thinkin CE Ward....Mikeyes you just give a little light to what I was thinking....I know what Doyle told me...

[Darryl Wolfe]

CE Ward did do many many A-50 conversions during that period

[mandoJeremy]

Scotti, check out Russ Jordan's post. I think you are right that it was C.E. Ward.

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

I don't have even 1% of the expertise you guys do but to me the ebay mandolin is interesting and I'll suggest why. Could be an interesting wall hanger.

First it says Givens body (not A50) with a Gibson neck. No indication of who did the work. Ever hear of somebody putting a Gibson neck on a Givens?

Second the pick mark area shows the mando was played alot and likely originally had a fingerboard with no extension on it. Otherwise how did the area get pick marked so thoroughly. Did Givens make fretboards without an extension?

Third It is/was likely a good sounding mando to be picked that much.

Fourth the back appears to be pretty plain Jane for something from a builder like Bob Givens - although I don't know. Maybe some of you do.

Fifth The description says it could use some glue on the inside -whats with that - a Givens needing glue??? Oops my bad - the case not the mando - Jeez Ed learn to read.

Sixth - the label stuff already pointed out. I guess the Gibson neck could have come off something made in Bozeman couldn't it?

Obviously the "sucker quotient" here is pretty high so I won't bid but will watch this one just to see what happens.

Take note though if your into Gibson the same seller is offering a pretty nice looking A9. It even has some nice albeit somewhat weak IMO flame on the back! Too bad there is no way to know what it sounds like.

I may be interested in one of the Kentucky 250s he's offering for my 12 year-old daughter though.

Take Care! -Ed-

[Scotti Adams]

..man..that makes me feel good Jeremy..I was right..right from the start....that doesnt happen to often...Thanks Russ for the back up...I remember Doyle telling me this same exact story.

[jasona]

Fourth the back appears to be pretty plain Jane for something from a builder like Bob Givens - although I don't know. Maybe some of you do.
I can't speak to most of your points, but this one I can. Givens didn't usually work with visually stunning wood. From his mandos I've seen (and there are a few of them floating around here in SoCal) the backs and sides are downright plain. Nothing plain about what comes out the sound holes however!

[Darryl Wolfe]

OK, Here is the picture. #Sam and I around 1971 or 72. #The Original Blues Brothers. #


This is the only picture I know of with the original condition "Hoss". #That's my 1968 Randy Wood F-12 conversion

http://www.f5journal.com/pic_day/samd.JPG http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Actually, it may have been 1970

[AlanN]

What a great photo.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Thanks Alan. Just to clarify, my mando there is a 1950
F-12 that Randy Wood converted in 1968

[delsbrother]

Is it strange that I feel compelled to make that my wallpaper? That is just too cool! Gotta photoshop out the poor kid embedded in the tree, though.

[Darryl Wolfe]

That's my now 47 yr old kid brother
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mikeyes]

Darryl,

Do you still have the RW Conversion?

[mandoJeremy]

That is a GREAT photo Darryl. #Thanks. #I have never seen Hoss with his original finish.

[delsbrother]

I have never seen Hoss with his original finish.
LOL You could say the same about Sam too!

[mandoJeremy]

Probably so, I am sure that he may slightly recall it!

[delsbrother]

No - you misunderstood me - I'm saying I've only seen the "distressed" Sam: http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

http://nashvilleportraits.com/AAA-Master-Scans/tn-Sam-Bush-electric.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

Further date update..I'm losing my mind too. The picture was taken at Camp Springs/Reidsville, NC Labor Day 1969

[Scotti Adams]

..very cool Darryl..you could make alot of money from Sam if he knew you had that.. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Keith Wallen]

Cool picture Darryl! I appreciate it. I didn't know Sam ever had short hair. I thought he was born with the long version... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[fatt-dad]

O.K. just to recap. It seems that Sam Bush played a Randy Wood A-50 conversion until he began to play Hoss. Darryl Wolfe has this great photo from 1969 with Sam Bush playing (posing) Hoss (prior to an overhaul). Who owned Hoss at the time of the photo? Also, it was just three years after this photo that the New Grass Revival released their first albumn (1972). What mandolin was used for the first NGR albumn?

I never knew that I had so many questions about all this stuff. I saw the NGR probably three times in 1973/1974 and recall some but not all - ha.

fatt-dad

[Rroyd]

Talk about dredging up old threads, but I had a bit of information regarding the photo that f5journl had posted of him and Sam Bush. The mandolin in the photo wasn't Hoss, but one that belonged to one of his bandmates in "Poor Richard's Almanac." It was two or three years newer than Hoss; Sam played it on the album that "Poor Richard's Almanac" made in 1969. (The album was recorded "live" on a reel-to-reel recorder in a bedroom with the walls draped with blankets.) He didn't get Hoss until 1973, or thereabouts.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Rroyd is absolutely right...that's why all the dates seem messed up...so now we know the rest of the story.

..looks like Hoss woulda looked...but Hoss's Brother. Thanks Rroyd

[Keith Wallen]

So what was the year span for Gibson mandolins with the same spec's as Hoss? I thought these were only made in 47'. That one in the picture being 2-3 years newer looks just like the 47's.

[Tom C]

So what was the year span for Gibson mandolins with the same spec's as Hoss?

Mid-30's to '42 I believe.

[Keith Wallen]

I meant 37' at least I think that is what Hoss is.

Thanks Tom!

[mandoJeremy]

Here's my question. If the mando in the picture is two or three years newer than Hoss why does it have a flowerpot instead of the usual fleur de lis that the late 30's and early 40's have?

[f5loar]

Looks like a '39 to me which was before the flurdelays came about in '40 to '42. It's a definite refinish as my original '37 "Hoss" don't look like that.
I think Darryl's dates are off a bit. Sam & Tony were in the BA in 1971 and they didn't last long.
Sure looks circa '69 to '70 to me. That's when Sammy was hanging out with the New Deal boys in the Raleigh, NC area.
Tony Rice was in a band with me in 1970. We never discussed Sam Bush much back then but knew he was an up and coming kid "whiz" on the fiddle and mandolin.
I remember the A50 conversion since these were the "in" thing to have back then. After Doyle got his CE Ward conversion everybody wanted a Ward. Ward even did one up for Bobby Osborne too. Since the Wards were in hot demand in the early 70's many turned to a "Shue" conversion or one he would build from scratch. The Shues were a lot less priced then the Wards. I had a '73 Shue A5 but before that I had a "Nicolay" of Atlanta conversion. He took my '60 A50 and made it into the A5 copy. All these back then had "The Gibson" in the snake head top so they looked like the original Loar A5. Many post war A50 were completely destroyed back then making them more scarce today in original condition.