vintage tuners

[John Bertotti]

Well I cleaned up my Vega Bowl backs tuners several months ago. The tuners are a bit sloppy but in the last three days one D string tuner keeps going flat. It seems it is actually unwinding itself about a 1/4 turn. I don't want to modify this instrument and may decide I'll just live with it but is it acceptable to replace tuners on vintage instruments? I would save the old tuners. My train of thought tells me it is a standard wear item and a collector would realize that. Am I correct? I imagine this is an applicable question for all vintage stringed instruments, bowl or carved or flat etc.. Thanks John

[Eugene]

I think you are correct, and with something as undervalued as a bowlback, keeping it functional will almost never detract from value...but good luck finding replacements that fit.

[John Bertotti]

Eugene therein lies the problem. I haven't measured them and don't really want to retrofit something in their place. I am wondering what a small machine shop would charge me to make a set. Or possibly the tech school shop. It would be nice if they were a standard size. John

[Eugene]

Rodgers (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/r.rodgers/RTM/Index.htm) is one of the best shops in the business. If you want a sense of what the state of the art costs, have a look.

[ADH]

I'm not an expert, but having a set made would probably cost more than they're worth.

[Eugene]

By the way, there are several things that a good repairman might be able to do to bring sloppy tuners back to functionality. It's worth asking a few luthiers who deal with restoration of old instruments.

[Jim Garber]

Bobd gave me so really good step-by-step advice on how to clean up my Leland tuners. I did find an email regarding this but I will let him post his own words.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Here's what bobd told me back in June:

Here's what I do.# Typically, with an instrument that's been sitting around unused for a while, I take off the strings and bridge for a thorough cleaning.#

I remove the tuners and, if possible, dismantle them, taking the screw out so that the pinion gear and worm gear can be separated.# Usually, the worm gear shaft needs to be coaxed out from under a loop on the base plate.# I kind of leverage the end of its shaft toward the opening, give the button an outward twist, and it usually rolls right out.# If you haven't done this before, it's a bit scary but not really risky.# Oh, one other thing that threw me the first couple of times is that there is often a brass cylinder that acts as a spacer between the sides of the mounting plates.# Depending on which scres you loosen from the outside, you may just loosen those holding the tuner cover plate to the headstock or you may loosen the ones running through those spacers and holding the tuner assembly together.# I did the latter inadvertently and had one of the spacers fall out# and went crazy trying to coax it back into position.# I've since learned that it's easier just to take the whole thing apart and then put it back together.# The biggest mistake I've made was putting things back together backwards (i.e., having the tuning button to the left rather than right of the posts as I put the worm gears back into place) and realizing it when I went to fit the tuner assembly back in the headstock.# It's cumbersome to disassemble and re-assemble, but not a big deal.# Keep track of each piece's orientation as you go and you'll avoid my mistake.# If the metal base has rust, I'll first clean it with naptha and then perhaps hit it with some 600 grit emery paper to get most of the crud off.# My goal isn't to get every speck of corrosion off, but to remove flaky rust.# I then clean all the parts with a toothbrush that I wet with naptha (lighter fluid).# I then use vaseline to grease the gears, kind of like packing wheel bearings on a car.# I just goop it on generously, turn the asembled gear works a bunch of times, and then wipe off all the excess with a soft cloth.# Arguably, this leaves more residue than oil and it might collect dust a bit more.# In practive, I haven't found this to be a problem and the vaseline does a really good job of adhering to all the working surfaces.# It's a messy job but I find that it works well.


Jim

[John Bertotti]

Hey Jim thanks I believe bobd is the one that told me it might be worth while to try and swap pieces from one side to the other. I was unable to get most of the screws lose. I work on ricky equipment everyday but it is a bit tougher and sturdier than the tuners and with no replacements I was hesitant to push removing the screws. John

[8ch(pl)]

A lot of Vega banjos have been converted to 5 string, including Vega mandolin banjos. Perhaps you could find a "converter" and get a set of tuners. One I know of is Wyatt Fawley, he has a website called thebanjoloft.com. I do not know him personally so there is no interest for me.

[Eugene]

Replacing the tuners on an old Vega Neapolitan-type mandolin isn't really comparable to banjo conversion. The tuning machines are relatively short-shafted, housed on smallish plates, and enclosed within a cover plate. Conversion to fit readily available modern tuners would be extremely invasive.

[Martin Jonas]

Replacing the tuners on an old Vega Neapolitan-type mandolin isn't really comparable to banjo conversion. #The tuning machines are relatively short-shafted, housed on smallish plates, and enclosed within a cover plate.
I think the point that 8ch(pl) was making is that people who have converted a Vega mandolin banjo to a 5-string banjo may well have original Vega mandolin tuners lying around, as leftovers of the conversion. The question is then just whether these were the same tuners as on the bowlbacks. A quick web search suggests that at least some of the Vega mandolin banjos had closed tuners, as described by Eugene, and may well be useful for replacement purposes. An example is here (http://www.vintageinstruments.com/photos/inst8/vegawlmbpegs.jpg) from a 1922 Vega Whyte Laydie mandolinbanjo (http://www.vintageinstruments.com/photos/inst8/vegawlmbful.jpg).

Martin

[Eugene]

Ah, please pardon my extreme density, 8ch(pl).

[John Bertotti]

I amy be missing something here but the tuners on mine are open geared and look like the standard schaller a style. No cover plates that I see unless we are using similar terms but meaning different things. John

[Eugene]

Ah, this is altogether different. The spacings and post diameters will almost certainly not match existing holes, but making modern tuners work on yours would be less invasive than on one with enclosed tuners. Still, I think making the original tuners functional or finding period replacements should be preferred.

[John Bertotti]

I was actually able to work the tuner past the problem spot and get a firm grip on the string. There is only a few degrees of rotation on the tuner that slips lose. This means I have time to do some searching. Thanks John

[Jim Garber]

John:
Have you actually narrowed down the problem: is the post actually turning or the gear slipping or the string not locked onto the post?

Being the previous owner, I don't recall any problem like that with the tuners. Before you go crazy (and please pardon me if this is understating your knowledge), but have you strung it correctly? I know...Sort of like the computer troubleshooter asking if the machine is plugged in... but you never know.

Jim

[John Bertotti]

Hey Jim I strung it per the fret.com pics. I don't think the string was slipping on the post. It seemed like the thing was actually unwinding itself. The tuner works so smoothly in about a quarter of it's turn that if you barley touch the tuner button it will unwind. I think it was the pressure on the gig bag on the tuner causing the problem. It hasn't done it in a couple days now. I tell you the longer I play it the better it sounds. I didn't realize the Lenzner strings had a break in period. Thanks John

[8ch(pl)]

Eugene you ain't dense, I'm probably obtuse. That was what I meant. There have been a lot of good tenor, plectrum and mandolin banjos lost forever to people who convert them to 5 string.