Just love the A-oval

[neal]

I don't know about you, but I cruise Ebay a lot, look at the sites for mandolins, you know, Elderly, Gruhn, definately Charles Johnsons Mandolin World Headquarters, and the like. # Ever since I got my A-Jr., I find that I'm scrolling past these beautiful F's. #Well, This one is an exception (http://www.folkwaymusic.com/images/instruments/gibson/f-4-1921.jpg) but it does have the O. I do have an F, a Japanese Morris, it even plays faster, but it doesn't have the draw that the A does. I play the Gibson much more.#

All I want is another A style old Gibson. #Of course, this (http://www.folkwaymusic.com/images/instruments/misc/woodley.jpg) would do as well. # What is it about these things that has taken my scroll envy and turned it into what I'm experiencing? #Anyone have the same jones?

Respectfully (I still think F styles are great),
Neal

[SternART]

I used to own that exact blonde Woodley. Very nice mandolin.....the current owner might be willing to sell it.

[babymedic]

Well, I've been wanting your A-Jr. since I played it at the compton/long workshop . . . http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif I think it's just the age--my Weber is just starting to open up (and has just gotten its first really bad scratch). I think I just have age envy--but I'm quite content, and will have to wait until I finish this internship thing and get a real job before I can think of getting a classic.

[peter.coombe]

Neal

No, you are not going through a phase. I started with a 1918 Gibson A, started making A's, went through a phase of playing one of my own A5's then went back to playing one of my own oval hole A's. Still playing one. If you would like to see some more nice pictures of A's check out my web site at http://www.petercoombe.com

[doanepoole]

A 1914 A killed my scroll envy. 'Tis no phase.

[JGWoods]

This one intrigues me today- a Martin
from Vintage Instruments in Philadelphia.
http://www.vintage-instruments.com/photos/25823z.jpg

Mighty pretty. I wonder how they sound?
best
jgwoods

[Bob A]

Well, I'm an F4 guy for thirty+ years, and I have a few A-style instruments. I'd say my absolute fave is an old Lyon & Healy style A. Sings like a bird, plays like butter. A less deep tonality than the Gibson instruments; to my mind, more toward the true mandolin sound and less guitar-like than the Gibsons. But I still like my F4 more than any A.

Of course, you know what opinions are like; and everyone has one.

(It was the photo of the Martin that got me to post - it reminded me of my L&H).

[fatt-dad]

you guys every tried the flat-top d'Adderio FT-74s on these mandolins? I put them on my A-3 and love them.

fatt-dad

[Bob DeVellis]

A or F, the round-hole instruments definitely have their own powerful allure. The Gibsons are great, the Lyon & Healy's fabulous, and the Flat-back Martins are also terrific. Each has its own sound, but it's all good. I think the variety among oval hole instruments is far greater both with respect to design and tone. F-hole instruments all seem to be shooting at pretty much the same target. Although there are certainly noteworthy differences, the span seems considerably smaller than the range of their oval hole brethren. A Vega cylinder-back, Martin bowl-back, Gibson A, and Sobell (just to choose a few) are very different instruments. Sure, a Rigel G-110, Gibson F5-L, and Martin 2-20 are pretty different, but somehow, they seem closer to each other than the oval hole examples.

[Eric F.]

Fatt-dad, Peter Coombe, who posted above, shipped me one of his oval hole As with those strings on it. The sound of angels, as Ira put it in another thread. I understand why bluegrassers play F-hole instruments. I own an F-hole instrument. But, man, I just love the sound of a sweet oval hole.

[neal]

Just something about 'em. #Love that fat neck, too. # #This may be a silly question, as I'm sure when folks commission an instrument, binding and perfection are desired, but does anyone make a copy of an A-Jr? #Woods, neck, lack of frills, etc..(well, straight frets and good intonation would be a plus).

Hi Amy! #You practicing the no-pinky-posting?

BobA, #when it comes to something so subjective, there are no wrong opinions.....unless I disagree with you. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Loren Bailey]

I'll echo Neal, I am looking for the same thing, a no frills oval hole A, kinda like an A Jr. I am going absolutely oval hole mad, serious MAS! My Quartz OF is great, but I am craving that round, open, melodic voice of and oval. Would appreciate any leads.

Loren
P.S. I Had ordered an Eastman 504, but it seems none have been or ever will be made.

[PhilGE]

Loren - though others may grow tired of my posting of this yet again, here are some pix of my Old Wave A #312 w/oval sound hole. It's still my favorite and it won't be sold.

-Phil

http://homepage.mac.com/philg2/.Pictures/OldWaveA/FrontLg.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/philg2/.Pictures/OldWaveA/BackLg.jpg
http://homepage.mac.com/philg2/.Pictures/OldWaveA/FaceToFaceLg.jpg

[Ted Eschliman]

The Oval hole is definitely a more "intimate" instrument. My (very subjective)observation is the way the sound permeates the player is a more personal experience, much more so than the F holes, in which the sound comes to a focus farther away.
The vintage has its own allure, but these newer ones mentioned are cool including the lesser known Rigel G-95 (http://members.aol.com/mandohack/RigelG95.html).

[John Flynn]

I hear you. My next mando will be either a Gibson A oval or a good custom copy like an Old Wave or a Pomeroy. I love the tone, the look, the neck, the whole deal. I have to say, though, that I think the F ovals are a step up tone-wise. The best sounding mandos, to my ear, I have ever heard recorded are Clyde Curley's teens F-4 and Bruce Ling's teens F-2.

[fatt-dad]

I think Bussman got it right.

f-d

[WV Mike]

Neal, I'm with you man! #I have the same bug. #I started about a year ago with a MK F-style. #I bought a sweet 1916 Gibson A about six months ago and haven't hardly played the MK since then. #

Then, MAS struck again this weekend at the FOOTMAD Fall Fling in WV. #I played a flat top round hole (Flatiron Skillet type) by a super small local builder (Will Parsons). #I couldn't pass it up and the price was right. #It's X-braced with spruce top, maple, and rosewood, and has the snakehead pegboard. #It's brand new and should sound even better with time. #It is easier to play than the Gibson. Now I have a carved oval and a flattop round. #Life is good!

I've never played an F oval, but I would like to some time.

Take care, Mike

[doanepoole]

I have found the old F-2s and F-4s to be comprabale in tone and playability to the old A models.

I kind of don't like the idea of an F for that type of picking because when I play Old Time stuff, alot of it is sitting down, and the lower point will bite my leg. As someone said earlier, there is something intimate about the ovals, and I like to use them for couch pickin...the points of an F-styles seem awkwards to negotiate in a seated or reclining position.

I'm with fatt-dad...if you want a good replica of the teens Gibson tone, I think Bussman has done the best job replicating it, at least in my experience. There not too pricey either, at least when compared to the market.

[mandopete]

I call it a "balanced attack" ....

After purchasing 3 F-style mandolins I fell in love with sound of the oval-hole a-style. #I have always thought that it makes good sense to have at least one of these in the arsenal.

Collings MF-5 & Fletcher Brock Oval-Hole A-Style

[doanepoole]

Mandopete has a good point. If you can, its nice to have a little stable.

I have an F style, and will readily admit that it is the instrument of choice for jams that have alot of instruments due to its superior projection.

But anymore, that's just about all I will use it for.

[mandopete]

I agree with Ted's description of the oval-hols as being "intimate". I find that for just sitting on the couch and picking, the oval-hole wins out most of the time.

[SternART]

Since we're getting into show & tell, here is my quilted back 2 point Lawrence Smart oval hole:
http://www.smithfowler.org/music/mandolin/smart/

[bjc]

Awesome looking mando SternART...I've been hooked on the oval sound since I bought a mandola with an oval hole and it just felt right...it was like the light came on and the sun shone down on me...tee hee...I play mainly folk/blues/country/rock...no real grass, so for me the sound is perfect. I will still hold on to my F Holes, because for some things I do they do sound better[I]...but I'm hooked on that oval sound...my Freshwater ships on Friday...I'm drooling baby :-):p

[neal]

Man, I just love that OW you have there Phil. Maybe I should start a thread, "Post a Pic of your Oval" in the pic section. What mandoporn. Art and Pete and Mr. Coombe, great looking mandos.

Now, if one is looking for the sound and neck feel of a teens-early 20's Gibson A, do your new mandolins compare favorably to that description? I know that there's always the argument of 80-90 year old wood, but is there a comparison? A lot of makers are making a slim profile neck, but back then, the necks felt a bit different. Any comments on that?

That Old Wave really looks Gibsonish.

[mandopete]

Now, #if one is looking for the sound and neck feel of a teens-early 20's Gibson A, do your new mandolins compare favorably to that description? # I know that there's always the argument of 80-90 year old wood, but is there a comparison? #A lot of makers are making a slim profile neck, but back then, the necks felt a bit different. #Any comments on that?
That was the reason I chose the Fletcher Brock mandolin - because it did not feel like and old Gibson A. #I have played a number of old Gibson A models and the necks were too short and "clubby" for my liking. #I like to think of this A model as "an A-model with F-5 style sensibilities", at least where the neck is concerned. #It has a raised fingerboard as well, which for me was another big plus over the old Gibsons.

Don't get me wrong, those old Gibson A's sound great, it's just for me the "feel' was wrong and this one was a better foil to my Collings F

[PhilGE]

Thanks, Neal. I can't complain about it at all.

Regarding sound and feel: I've had the intimate sound Ted refers to when I use TI Mittels on my OW. Very nice for that understated, but tasty tone. #I tried the FT-74's, but just didn't like them - I always wanted to smooth them out more. Funny, I've gone back to DR mediums and the tone is, um, not-delicate. No need to play hard in a jam. I try to be quiet with it at home, but it likes to sing out in a big way. The heavier round wound strings mean a more stiff and "rough" feel (compared to the ultra smooth TIs), but it's a welcome one. Conclusion: Great stuff from a (still) new instrument with a variety of tone options given string choice. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I didn't mention I had Bill shape the neck in what I call a "gentle" or "squashed" V. Not a baseball bat, not a knife. Very nice feel w/the 16 degree radiused fretboard.

-Phil

[peter.coombe]

Neal

I like to think of my oval hole mandolins as a further development of the old Gibsons. The look shape and feel of the instrument is similar, but they have been modernised and much refined. I still use the short fat neck joining at the 12th fret, althought I do round the neck profile a bit to make it more comfortable with the radiused board. These instruments are not F5's, and changing the position of the sound hole and/or raising the fingerboard will change the character and sound of the instrument so I don't do it, and neither does Bussmann. I believe that Bill has tried raising the fingerboard, but did not much like the result. Mine have 12" radiused fingerboards, carbon fibre reinforcement in the neck and X braced tops, modified Brekke bridge, and of course a varnish finish, plus many other smaller refinements. The X brace I believe does give the mandolins a more refined sound, and the carbon fibre also seems to give them a bit more sustain. I switched from the single cross brace to X bracing some time ago. The tops and backs are also tuned and matched, and I also try to tune the soundbox as close as I can get to a G#. Most oval hole mandolins are tuned too low, with the result the G strings boom. Tuning to G# gives a much smoother and better balanced sounding instrument, you can really hear the difference. I have also played around with various woods and have mostly settled on European Spruce from Switzerland for the top and Tasmanian Myrtle for the backs, although I do occasionally make a Maple instrument. The Spruce is quite simply the best I have ever seen in my life and that is certainly reflected in the sound it produces. Myrtle is the best sounding wood for the back I have used - warm, sweet rich tone. Maple has a bit more clarity, but I think sounds "sterile" in comparison to Myrtle. I also make an all Aussie mandolin from King Billy Pine and Blackwood that has a slightly different sound. Some of these are really stunning sounding mandolins.

I have a very nice sounding 1918 Gibson that I can compare with, and have played a lot of old Gibsons over the years. What I am making now creams the Gibsons by a considerable margin in the sound department. Customers are also telling me the same thing. 80 year old wood does not give the old instruments that much of a head start.

[fatt-dad]

Very nice feel w/the 16 degree radiused fretboard.

-Phil
Still learning about radius fretboards. But, do they also reference the shape by degree (i.e., 16 degree) or is that maybe a typo in reference to 16 inches?

fatt i'm-not-trying-to-be-critical dad

[peter.coombe]

In regard to radiused fretboards, 12" refers to the radius of the curve on the fretboard. If you get a compass and draw a circle with a 12" radius, the curve of that circle is the curve on a fretboard with a 12" radius. Thus a 7" radiused fretboard has a greater curve than 12" or 16". Some makers make a fretboard with a compound raduis. For example, Gilchrist makes his fretboards 7" radius at the nut, but 12" at the bridge, so the fretboard is a conical shape rather than cylindrical.

[PhilGE]

Good catch, fatt-dad. I was running out the door and didn't notice that error.

-Phil

[fatt-dad]

And now for something real exciting - my A3!

[neal]

Where's the rest of it? It's a beaut.

[Lee]

I'm glad Peter Coombe has been checking in here. He, and Bill Bussman, seem to be consistently mentioned whenever contemporary oval holes are mentioned. But we seem to hear too little from the Coombe owners. Last year I had the good fortune to play one of Peter's A5's and the tone was astounding. Not to mention he did it with unconventional myrtlewood. Ya have any photos Peter?

[Lee]

Peter, there was a discussion awhile back about whether or not a radiused fretboard should also have a radiused bridge. What's your thought on that? My logical brain would first assume yes. But if it's a compound radius, by the time the conical shape is extended out to the bridge it might be so nearly flat enough to make a flat bridge acceptable. Would my assumption make sense?

[oldwave maker]

Nice to see some ovalhole talk in this noisy f hole modern world . My default specs are similar to Peters: 12" radius board with 16" radius bridge, carbon fibre rod, x bracing, unraised fretboard.
With all due respect to those who wallow in their loar fetish, carved ovalholes are vastly superior for serenading small children to sleep, IMO. Wouldnt use one to drown out a circle of inebriated amateur banjoists tho.....
Thought mine were hot stuff till I took a 1920 A4 in trade last week, glad it sold quickly before I could develop any more attachment to it!
Here's part of the christmas litter:

[peter.coombe]

Lee957, you are correct but it really depends on how much the conical radius flattens out whether or not you can use a flat saddle on the bridge. I use a cylindrical radius and radius the bridge to 12". To be honest I can't tell the difference between conical and cylindrical. My Gilchrist which has the conical radius doesn't seem to feel any different.

There is a picture of that A5 on my web page. Try http://www.petercoombe.com/highquality14.html It is now owned by Massimo Gatti so went to a very good home.

[fatt-dad]

And now for the rest of the story (drum roll please). . . . .

[8ch(pl)]

I love those whitefsce Gibson A's.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Part of my family http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[ericwall]

Well to add to this thread, like mandopete, I fell hard for a Fletcher Brock F5 "in the white" at Wintergrass 04. It's on its way to IBMA to be shown off after a month of my playing and it's simply outstanding. So now, what to do with my Lebeda Premium F5- certainly nothing to sneeze at either. So I've been thinking hard of a trade plus $ for a varnish oval hole. For variety of tonal experience. So very hard as the Lebeda has matured nicely and was my first mandolin.
And advice from you oval hole addicts?
Best,
Eric Wall http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sleepy.gif

[neal]

After seeing the offerings from all you guys, I'm not sure who I'm more envious of.

[PhilGE]

Here's a recording (http://homepage.mac.com/philg2/.Music/jbm2.mp3) of John Brown's March from a couple of years ago or so after I first received my Old Wave. I just don't have much time to do stuff like that now with 2 kids. Hmmm... think I'll go practice "playing" my kids!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

-Phil

[ericwall]

So PhilGE, do I hear you offering up that Old Wave? I could offer an F5 in trade. And by the way, that recording of John Brown's March was very well done.
Best,
Eric http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[PhilGE]

Thanks, Eric, and, uh, no, it's not for sale! I might reconsider a swap if that F5 was made by Rroyd Roar in March of '23...

However, looks like Bill has one in the works that is apparently available for sale. Check out this work in progress. (http://community.webshots.com/photo/192358823/192358823QlNSKp)

-Phil

[Eric F.]

Lee957 said: But we seem to hear too little from the Coombe owners.

That's because they are too busy playing their incredible mandolins. Peter is the real deal.

[peter.coombe]

Thanks Eric, that was a very nice thing to say. My mandolins very seldom pop up in the second hand market which tends to indicate the owners like them, but then there is no indication of what they are worth either for me or for the customers. Prices have remained very reasonable and the order book is still open because of that, which is not so good for me! I have been amazed at how many customers have ordered another instrument after they have got the first. Massimo Gatti takes first prize though with two mandolins and a mandola and he has recently ordered another mandola. He has more than what I have! Considering he sold a Nugget, Monteleone, and two Gilchrists that is pretty amazing. I saw his Nugget and was blown away by the sheer beauty of the thing, and the exquisite craftmanship, a real WOW instrument. No comment on the sound because to be honest I didn't like it. Others did, so each to his own taste I guess.

[Davetnova]

PhilGE - great playing on John Brown's March. The tune (I've never heard of JBM)sounds very like Little Maggie in the Woods. Do you know if they're related.

[twaaang]

Very nice job, PhilGE, reason to love the oval-hole even more. In my case that's a Lyon and Healy style B, which is about to learn John Brown's March (unless perhaps it has already known the tune for decades!). Thanks for sharing. -- PDW

[Lee]

Since we've mentioned Massimo Gatti a few times he desrves to be rewarded with a little free publicity. Check out his band's website at
www.bluegrass.it
Amazing thought that bluegrass is popular in Italy too. Massimo also has a side-project band and has released a wonderful CD of mostly his own compositions. He plays a variety of wonderful mandolins and has a very easy-going feel to his outstanding playing.
Peter, thanks for the photo! I'll be looking for your mandos on Massimo's upcoming releases.

[Gotterdamerung]

Oval hole A-Style enthusiasts might wish to read Peter Ostroushko's thoughts about the efficacy of this type of mandolin, from the Mandozine website's "guest of the week" feature from March:

Mandozine Article (http://www.mandozine.com/resources/CGOW/ostroushko.php)

Here, in response to a few of the questions, he discusses what prompted him to start using the oval hole A-Style, and why it projects sound better, and how he gets his characteristic tone, and the like. A good read.

[acousticphd]

PhilGE et al,

I'd love to have a crack at each previously owned Old Wave oval-hole that comes up for sale. I'd take them all and try to sort out which ones to keep later. Several years ago I bought my first, an "older" (#108, if memory serves, ca. '95), but with the intention of selling it to friend, which I did. Someday soon I hope I will stumble across another deal like that one. In addition to a Bussman A-f hole, I have a C# two-point ovalhole, but would probably trade it for another #108 if I could!

I'm curious if people have seen, heard, played Sawchyn oval hole mandos? Either carved or flat? Although this discussion has been restricted to carved instruments, and acknowledging there is really no comparison between the two, he makes both flatiron-style and carved oval hole mandolins and mandolas. I would offer a plug for the lowly flat-style instrument just because of the cost/benefit; I bought a used Sawchyn flat style mandola several years ago here in the classifieds, and it is probably the best $450 I ever spent. I have never come across another used Sawchyn. Even now, he charges the equivalent of only ~$600 US for a handmade flat oval hole instrument, and around $2K for the new A2-like instruments. No idea what the waiting list might be, but either would appear to be very good deals.

[neal]

Not restricted to carved at all. As a matter of fact, I'm interested in an older Martin. Can someone chime in here and compare the sound of the flat Martin to a carved top? Loolking for an AK (Koa). No hurry, still have to convince my wife that I'm worthy, although lately I've been hearing some compliments.

[Jim M.]

I've played four or five flat-top Martins but no koa ones. Sweet sound, but pretty quiet with not much bass. Work pretty well for classical.

[danb]

I've played Bill's Old Wave instruments a couple times, and I've been really impressed. Feels like the best of the old snakeheads, powerful & mellow. I'd love to try one of yours Peter, are there any in London with sociable owners? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[fatt-dad]

If anybody is interested in the Alvarez clone of the Martin Mandolin, I have one for sale (and it don't cost as much).

Here's the link. (http://home.comcast.net/~fatt-dad/a-400.html)

Nice thread - I love the a-oval too!

fatt-dad

[Bob DeVellis]

I really like the flat-back Martins. They're very lightly (but solidly) built and have a sweet ringing tone. Not as bassy as a Gibson round-hole, I'd agree. Although some of them are quiet, the rosewood ones (Style B and above, or the very early Style A's) can be quite loud. The koa is pretty. I've not actually played an AK that I can recall, although I've played a bunch of mahogany and rosewood Martins. Whether the extra price koa usually commands buys you just looks or looks-and-tone is a subjective judgement based on your personal tone preferences. Both the oval-hole Gibsons and the flat back Martins can be very satisfying instruments to own and play. It's just a matter of personal preference and fitting the context in which they'll be used. I wouldn't take the typical Martin flatback into a large session, for example, and expect to be able to hear myself. But in a smaller group -- and certainly for solo or duet playing -- they are very capable and sound fantastic. The craftsmanship and materials are generally excellent, also. I guess I Gibson oval holes perhaps a bit more versatile but also less distictive in their tone. Martins are still probably a better value but I love both the old Gibsons and Martins.

[acousticphd]

Fattdad -

[If anybody is interested in the Alvarez clone of the Martin Mandolin, I have one for sale (and it don't cost as much).]


Talk about an exact clone - how'd they avoid getting sued? Or did they? How well did they clone the Martin sound?

I don't have a picture to post, or I would - but I have a clone of my own, a Suzuki copy of the 60's Gibson carved 2-pt A5 oval hole mandolin. It's not loud - except for the red sunburst, which is very loud - but it sounds pretty good.

Re: Martin bent-tops, I have played a couple belonging to people at old-time jams. Both were mahogany bodied, and old - from the '30s or '40s. What most impressed me was their clear, pure, and fairly loud treble notes. I thought they were best for melody playing, and chimey open chord playing. I also know someone with a reconditioned old bent-top, flat backed Bruno, that also sounds very good in a similar way.

One opinion, though. about most of the antique instruments I've tried: the wood may have matured and improve, but the hardware does not - it only wears out. The tuners on a lot of these old guys are horrible compared to what we're used to now.

[fatt-dad]

How well did they clone the Martin sound?
Not sure how well they cloned the Martin sound, but I bought this mandolin from ebay and the seller was an older gentleman who sent a typed letter (he signed his name) just to let me know that Jethro Burns loved the sound of this mandolin. I notice that it has a sweet (i.e., not loud) but clear tone. I find that I don't play it as the short scale length is not to my liking. It's all what we're used to - eh?

That said, it is in great shape other than the original setup was too low for me (i.e., there was some string buzz in the upper frets). So, I added a very thin shim under the fixed bridge to rais the action. It works fine now and plays well.

f-d

[peter.coombe]

Dan

I do have, from memory, 3 or 4 mandolins in the UK. Can't remember the exact number and where they are, but I think at least one is in London. Unfortunately I have long lost contact with the owners. However, I will be sending a matching mandolin and mandola to Trevor Moyle (Brighton) in about 3 months.

[PhilGE]

I'm writing from Lansing, MI, this evening. I spent some time at Elderly Instruments and goofed around on this new Old Wave blackface A-oval. (http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/items/OW22.htm) It's a very sweet instrument, available now without the wait. I found myself liking the sound far better than an Gibson F-4 and many others available. Guess I'm biased! It has more volume and tone than almost all the Fs I tried.

-Phil

[neal]

I'm currently lusting after this Martin. #Anybody play one of these, as I've never seen one or knew that Martin made a carved top oval hole mandolin. Here's the link to this beauty (http://www.vintage-instruments.com/photos/25823z.jpg)