Its Old in a Way

[M.Marmot]

Just for a wee bit of discussion...

I have been listening to quite a bit of old-time music recently and have been looking up some internet sources on the subject.

I gather that, for some, Old-Time in its strictest sense is more or less confined to fiddle and banjo but in terms of its development as a genre it has moved to include other instruments, one of which is the mandolin. For me this means that the role or scope for the mandolin in Old-Time is not defined and that as such it has a lot of noodle room.

The topic i'd like to open here is what features, sounds, techniques would you personally associate, cultivate, or advise, for Old-Time playing?

[Jim Garber]

"Old-Time in its strictest sense" -- that may be an oxymoron in itself. OT also includes singing, guitar and at times, even in its past, mandolin and even ukulele. The main thing for playing mandolin in old time is to listen to what is going on. if you are in a large jam, it prob doesn't matter since you will barely be heard. But in a small group you may want to see how the mandolin blends or complements the other instruments. Play the straight melody or even a countermelody, maybe some chordal accompaniment -- it is up for grabs. Under vocals, keep the noodling to a minimum. That is my 2 cents.

[M.Marmot]

"Old-Time in its strictest sense" -- that may be an oxymoron in itself. OT also includes singing, guitar and at times, even in its past, mandolin and even ukulele. The main thing for playing mandolin in old time is to listen to what is going on. if you are in a large jam, it prob doesn't matter since you will barely be heard. But in a small group you may want to see how the mandolin blends or complements the other instruments. Play the straight melody or even a countermelody, maybe some chordal accompaniment -- it is up for grabs. Under vocals, keep the noodling to a minimum. That is my 2 cents.

Thank you,

i wanted to avoid that old humdrum old-time dogma debate, thats why added the 'strictest sense' bit, hoping to get it out of the way as acknowledged.

For me the interest is in just what musical choices do some of the old time players/players that play old time, here on the cafe, take when playing old-time music on mandolin. For instance, in another thread we have the possible stigma of chopped chords in an old-time setting... the chop, some folks are for it others agin it.

So each player will adapt their own tastes to what they see old-time to be. Personally i have always liked open chords and it would be something i would like to work on within an old time repetoire.

I suppose i was figuring more in the sense, are there any musical techniques that mandocafe players are pursuing with old-time specifically in mind?

[Jim Nollman]

In my own experience, what you play while performing traditional music, depends entirely on the situation and the venue. when I'm working just with a banjo, i play almost 100% melody. When we add a fiddle, i often play a parallel to the melody, and spend the other half of my time vamping closed chords. I likewise play differently with a full band of fiddle, piano, button accordion, and baritone guitar. I also play quite differently if I'm outside at a farmer's market, than inside at a dance being amplified. It's all about being sensitive to the situation.

When you become sensitive to dynamics, and how the audience hears you, it becomes harder and harder to enjoy playing these tunes in a jam, where the music tends to dip to the lowest common denominator. I think that's true with any music.

My choice of what to play, is reliant on what I know of the mandolin's capability for filling and enhancing a specific frequency and rhythmic niche. When its a band that's playing, I might spend half an evening without ever playing melody, because the mandolin is the only thing capable of providing the counter rhythm that pushes dancers around the room. This is where I often favor a chop, which is not so unlike a kick drum. If I am amplified, I can play more single notes in order to double the melody with one fiddle. With two fiddles,which is actually more common in my own experience, I would never play melody for more than one verse. No fiddle can bang out a percussive rhythm that the mandolin accomplishes so uniquely well.

I never play open chords at a dance because, first, you can't control the decay which is crucial to my percussive role. Open chords also sound like mud while playing outside, without amplification, and with a full band. Second, after ten minutes of banging on open chords just to be heard, the A strings are just the first string pair to go slightly out of tune. I do play open chords when amplified. Well, not exactly. i usually favor 80% double stops and 20% full chords (open or closed). I have never consulted with another traditional mandolin player, so i can't tell you if this is the norm, or just my eccentricity.

Most people I know who play traditional music, don't like to work out parts. These are not Beatle tunes. No hooks, no repeated riffs. Think of the tune Cluck old Hen. It's basically a blues riff as an entire song. The usual in traditional music, is either all parallel playing, or improvising in full support of those who are playing parallel.

When the fiddle and my mandolin are locked into melodic doubling, the accordion player often starts churning out a low-end chord riff which really pushes the melody. Reminds me of the classic Cajun groove. But I learned long ago, that it doesn't work for me to ask this Purist to remember his cajun part, and always repeat it on the tune. That also implies, that rehearsals are very different in process than any jazz or rock rehearsal. They are not focused on learning parts, but on everybody getting on the same energetic page.

The best asset any musician can bring to a session is to know the tunes as best you can. Most versed traditional players i know, can spin off 40 or 80 tunes (melody and chords). That is a remarkable achievement of both brain memory and finger memory, and easily as impressive as a jazz guy improvising off of standards.

Whoa!! you got me started on this one.

[M.Marmot]

[QUOTE=Jim Nollman;804723]


I never play open chords at a dance because, first, you can't control the decay which is crucial to my percussive role. Open chords also sound like mud while playing outside, without amplification, and with a full band. Second, after ten minutes of banging on open chords just to be heard, the A strings are just the first string pair to go slightly out of tune. I do play open chords when amplified. Well, not exactly. i usually favor 80% double stops and 20% full chords (open or closed). I have never consulted with another traditional mandolin player, so i can't tell you if this is the norm, or just my eccentricity.

QUOTE]

Thanks, that was a great post...

Its exactly each person's eccentricity that i am looking for here :)

I'm gonna have to read back over that post for later

[JeffD]

I would not say the mandolin's role is up or grabs, or open to how each of us wants to play it. But yea there is a lot more freedom in not having as defined role as say bluegrass.

What I would say is to listen to a whole lot of old timey music, and especially go to festivals and jams, where live people are jamming and performing, and really get the "sound" down deep into you. Then, when you do pick up the mandolin, you will have a feeling of where to go with it.

I know it sounds corny but I think its important.

With more flexibility/freedom comes more responsibility. If one's roll is well defined, one can look it up once or twice, listen to an instructional dvd, and yer off to the races. But if its not so well defined, then, its not as easy to know what to do. You want to be respectful of what the music was, and is, and at the same time make an individual contribution to the sound. You have to figure out how your going to make your mandolin relevant, without being disruptive.

Its an exciting challenge that keeps me in the game.

[JeffD]

So what do I do? Well it depends on the jam. But I often find myself playing melody in unison with the fiddle. Adding a few harmonies and double stops here and there, but basically not straying from the melody.

Thats if its a tune I know well. Other wise I will do a sort of chord backup with occational tremolo double stops where appropriate.

And usually, after playing the tune some 3459087230987942982034095 times, I will have it down and play melody a few more times.

[M.Marmot]

I would not say the mandolin's role is up or grabs, or open to how each of us wants to play it. But yea there is a lot more freedom in not having as defined role as say bluegrass.

What I would say is to listen to a whole lot of old timey music, and especially go to festivals and jams, where live people are jamming and performing, and really get the "sound" down deep into you. Then, when you do pick up the mandolin, you will have a feeling of where to go with it.

I know it sounds corny but I think its important.

With more flexibility/freedom comes more responsibility. If one's roll is well defined, one can look it up once or twice, listen to an instructional dvd, and yer off to the races. But if its not so well defined, then, its not as easy to know what to do. You want to be respectful of what the music was, and is, and at the same time make an individual contribution to the sound. You have to figure out how your going to make your mandolin relevant, without being disruptive.

Its an exciting challenge that keeps me in the game.

Alas, i have a lack of old-time anything around here give or take the odd mouldy baguette end and roman ruins.

But, you have nailed the challenge right on the head, as a musician, to open a role or sound that benefits the context as a whole.

I have been listening to recordings though, but, i also thought it interesting to see what other musicians are doing personally for their own practice. After all, as you put it, if i wanted a instruction manuel or method book i could jsut go and buy one, but, i like that the cafe can offer the possibility that you can share with other folks who are in the same boat... sometime the anecdote is better than the fact :)

[Jim Garber]

I think a few of us old time mandolin players should go over to Lyons and visit and pick some. I play fiddle and guitar also. of course, only money and time are prohibiting me. Oh well.

In addition to my rant above, I would also say, as far as instrumental jams, in an nutshell... it is the groove. You can play the mandolin almost as a percussion instrument even if you are playing melody. Sustain does not work too well esp in a dance situation. I tried it once on an electric Gibson solidbody and it just muddied up everything.

[Gary S]

I play in an old time band. I mostly stay on melody. Guitar and bass are handling the rhythm just fine.Mandolin and fiddle essentially play as double fiddles. I sometimes do some harmony and now and again play around the fiddle but mostly stay with the fiddle.

I try to play the melody with a rhythmic sense too it but rarely play straight chords unless I hear a need.

[Bill Foss]

I play in an old time band and can echo many of the things that have been said. Much more than in a bluegrass context, I try to stay with the melody and concentrate on GROOVE. When I'm playing with the fiddle I will alternate between rhythm and melody. When I play melody I try to lock in with the fiddle. I spend a lot of time getting my phrasing in sync with our fiddle player. I will add fills to songs, but again, I do less than I would in a bluegrass context.

I avoid the bluegrass chop 95% of the time when playing old time. A more rolling, ringing strum, but with closed chords, seems to fit better. There's a mandolin player named Verlin Cliffton from the Round Peak area of North Carolina that played with the great old time fiddler Tommy Jarrell. Verlin never played melody on tunes, but just concentrated on rhythm. He's the guy who I try to copy. What he does is subtle, but if you listen it's there contributing to the groove. Look for Tommy Jarrell recordings with
Verlin playing.

For killer old time mandolin melody playing listen to the young band, Foghorn. Their mandolin player, Caleb Klauder, locks in completely with their fiddle player. A super powerful and groovy band.

To me, like you say, the mandolin's role is less defined. When we're playing fiddle tunes I think of the banjo and fiddle as being out front leading the way with the mandolin as added melodic sparkle and rhythmic oomph. I feel like my role is mostly to back up what the fiddle is doing. That's my 2 cents.

http://www.myspace.com/theknuckleknockers

[M.Marmot]

I think a few of us old time mandolin players should go over to Lyons and visit and pick some. I play fiddle and guitar also. of course, only money and time are prohibiting me. Oh well.

In addition to my rant above, I would also say, as far as instrumental jams, in an nutshell... it is the groove. You can play the mandolin almost as a percussion instrument even if you are playing melody. Sustain does not work too well esp in a dance situation. I tried it once on an electric Gibson solidbody and it just muddied up everything.

Money and time are the only limits we allow the imagination, and oh boy, i would not mind an old-time jam i spose they'd call it a 'vieux-conserve' over here in Lyon, or wishful thinking. I might have tracks on a bit of a bit of an irish session to tide me over though, so alls well.

Are actual dances big in old time settings?

[M.Marmot]

I play in an old time band. I mostly stay on melody. Guitar and bass are handling the rhythm just fine.Mandolin and fiddle essentially play as double fiddles. I sometimes do some harmony and now and again play around the fiddle but mostly stay with the fiddle.

I try to play the melody with a rhythmic sense too it but rarely play straight chords unless I hear a need.

So, would you use double stops or tremolo a lot in your playing?

[M.Marmot]

I play in an old time band and can echo many of the things that have been said. Much more than in a bluegrass context, I try to stay with the melody and concentrate on GROOVE. When I'm playing with the fiddle I will alternate between rhythm and melody. When I play melody I try to lock in with the fiddle. I spend a lot of time getting my phrasing in sync with our fiddle player. I will add fills to songs, but again, I do less than I would in a bluegrass context.

I avoid the bluegrass chop 95% of the time when playing old time. A more rolling, ringing strum, but with closed chords, seems to fit better. There's a mandolin player named Verlin Cliffton from the Round Peak area of North Carolina that played with the great old time fiddler Tommy Jarrell. Verlin never played melody on tunes, but just concentrated on rhythm. He's the guy who I try to copy. What he does is subtle, but if you listen it's there contributing to the groove. Look for Tommy Jarrell recordings with
Verlin playing.

For killer old time mandolin melody playing listen to the young band, Foghorn. Their mandolin player, Caleb Klauder, locks in completely with their fiddle player. A super powerful and groovy band.

To me, like you say, the mandolin's role is less defined. When we're playing fiddle tunes I think of the banjo and fiddle as being out front leading the way with the mandolin as added melodic sparkle and rhythmic oomph. I feel like my role is mostly to back up what the fiddle is doing. That's my 2 cents.

http://www.myspace.com/theknuckleknockers

The Foghorn Stringband?

I have been giving them a listen, with an ear leaning towards that mandolin and it is super tasty playing... and its true he does lock in with that fiddle, sometimes its difficult to dig that ol mandolin out of the mix, and, i mean that in a good way. Also I will check out Tommy Jarrell and Verlin Clifton, thank you

I like your take on the mandolins role, i have been thinking that maybe it would settle somewhere between the banjo and fiddle, not as a happy medium, but as a spur to drive and add a missing element to both... obviously all for the greater good:whistling:

[Bill Foss]

Yes, the blend that Foghorn gets is very tight, that's what I like about it. They almost become one voice.

[Gary S]

I would reccomend listening to the Camp Creek Boys for a good example of Verlin Clifton"s mandolin playing. They played some of the finest old time band music ever (in my opinion).

When I do play back up it is usually 2 or 3 finger chords down on the g,d amd a strings. I like to let some of the open notes ring. I often also like to play the melody down on the lower strings as well so that I am in a different range than the fiddle.

There is no set way but one thing I do not care to do is switch around alot in mid tune. It can leave a hole to start on rhythm and then abandon it for melody. Once again, just my opinion...Gary

[JeffD]

Alas, i have a lack of old-time anything around here give or take the odd mouldy baguette end and roman ruins.


For reference, an example of the groove :) (I just love this stuff.)


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[Jim Nollman]

Jeff, beautiful video. what's the big bass kalimba thingy? It looks more American made than African. Can you hear it over all those other instruments. And what's the tune?

[Bill Foss]

I don't know what the tune is, but the fiddle and guitar player who look like twins, are twins: Greg and Jere Canote. The two banjo players are Brendan Doyle and Maxine Gerber. Jody Platt is playing melody on the tenor guitar tuned like an octave mandolin. I can't identify others.

Jody makes tenor guitars made for playing melody on old time tunes. But that's getting off topic.

[M.Marmot]

:mandosmiley:Now, that video was a class act, what a great way to pass a rainy afternoon.

[woodwizard]

That tune is sometimes called Miss Mcleod's Reel but I like to call it "Have You Ever Seen the Devil Uncle Joe" as it is also sometimes called.

Did you ever go to meeting Uncle Joe, Uncle Joe
Did you ever go to meeting Uncle Joe
Did you ever go to meeting Uncle Joe, Uncle Joe
I don't mind the weather if the wind don't blow

[JeffD]

:mandosmiley:Now, that video was a class act, what a great way to pass a rainy afternoon.

A rainy afternoon? Its a way to spend a life.

[JeffD]

Jeff, beautiful video. what's the big bass kalimba thingy? It looks more American made than African. Can you hear it over all those other instruments. And what's the tune?


I have heard that thing called a marimbula, or one woman I met called it, as you say, a bass kalimba. I have seen them more and more in the last several years. Its tuned in fifths, so you can privide the bass note for most folkie tunes. I love the sound of them. And they are much more portable than a stand up bass.

I think the tune is called "Going to the Wedding to Eat Some Cake" or something similar.

It has some similarity with Miss McLeods, especially in the A part.

[JeffD]

More, for the groove you know, not because I am obsessed or anything.

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[JeffD]

So, just listen, a lot, no a lot a lot, and try what seems to fit and go from there.

[M.Marmot]

I've just been noodling around with a few tunes and listening to a few albums... and this groove that you speak of, it may be becoming apparent even to my cloth ears.

I'm gonna hedge another question, again its just a net for opinions...

It seems to me that, even if the tunes are in the same time as say Irish or Scottish tunes that there is a marked difference in how the beat is pulled on or drawled out by the fiddle, the accents are in differnet places, and this seems to give a slower unfolding to the musical pulse, makes it roll almost wavelike.

Does that make any sense?

Also, and heres a big can of fishbait, i'm not sure on the subject but i have heard that pentatonic scales are used often in old time/country (strangely, i found this out round about the time i found out they were also used extensively in Ethiopian music) and its in the nature of these scales to open a piece of music. Is this at all correct?

How extensive is the use of pentatonic scales in old time?

[JeffD]

It seems to me that, even if the tunes are in the same time as say Irish or Scottish tunes that there is a marked difference in how the beat is pulled on or drawled out by the fiddle, the accents are in differnet places, and this seems to give a slower unfolding to the musical pulse, makes it roll almost wavelike.

I would say yes to the first part and hmmmm to the second. Many OT tunes have more or less obvious origins, but are played in OT with subtle and not so subtle differences from the way they might have been played originally. I am not sure I see that the difference is as you describe, but I am not any good at identifying or describing or even ferreting out all the differences.

The beat and where in the beat one plays is a part of it. But I tend think in terms of the ornamentation, and the fitting ornamentation of a Scottish tune in a Scots/Irish traditional session is different from how I would decorate the same or related tune in an old time jam.

Others are better at this kind of analysis than me.




How extensive is the use of pentatonic scales in old time?

It has been my experience that pentatonics seem to be hidden everywhere in this western music, but that as soon as one identifies them their power evaporates.

[billkilpatrick]

vajra mandolin playing has no place in old-time - that would be my two euro-cents ... i.e., serve the tune instead of the player.

[M.Marmot]

vajra mandolin playing has no place in old-time.

Vajra and Old-time?

Oh the pun with a certain pharmaceutical was too much for me to resist, but, it seems that its against the cafe etiquette. Apologies ~:>

[M.Marmot]

I would say yes to the first part and hmmmm to the second.

It has been my experience that pentatonics seem to be hidden everywhere in this western music, but that as soon as one identifies them their power evaporates.

The second, the wave analogy, a bit fanciful i will concede, but it was what seemed fitting at the time (i was listening to one of the videos you posted). What i was trying to describe was the sensation, for me, that the old-time tunes seem to unfurl without the sharpness that i'd associate with, say, an Irish tune, its as if the rise and fall of the tune is rolled more, its less angular... again i'm no expert on the subject, i'm just voicing these thoughts for discussion.

Perhaps, i'll try and find several versions of the same tune, Irish, Scottish, Old-time, and see if i can articulate meself better

[billkilpatrick]

"pun exceeding propriety" ... ver-y good!

"vajra" as in "thunderbolt!" ...

my dictionary describes bluegrass music as "old-time music with thunderbolts; glitzy-flashy-in-the-panny-kazzapy!"

[M.Marmot]

"pun exceeding propriety" ... ver-y good!

"vajra" as in "thunderbolt!" ...

my dictionary describes bluegrass music as "old-time music with thunderbolts; glitzy-flashy-in-the-panny-kazzapy!"

If only the OED could be so colourful.

'Serve the tune' seems to be the mantra of the day... it also would make a very sweet latin inscription :)

[JeffD]

I had my kazzapy removed. As an alternative one could just remove the frets and sand it down.


:)

[allenhopkins]

Sticking my oar in late: "old-time in its strictest sense confined to fiddle and banjo" is IMHO a fairly recent attitude. Many old-time dances were to a solo fiddle, but mainly because in isolated, poorer rural communities that was the available instrument. Bill Monroe talked about tagging along to dances as his Uncle Pen's guitarist; Woody Guthrie wrote about playing guitar to back up square dance fiddlers in the '20's. When bands formed to perform and record "old-time music" they could contain a great variety of instruments in addition to banjo, guitar and fiddle: mandolin, harmonica, piano, Autoharp, tenor banjo, Hawaiian or steel guitar, accordion, cello, bass fiddle -- Henry Ford's Old-Time Dance Orchestra featured hammered dulcimer and tuba! A band formed in one of those small rural communities, or even in a Southern urban area, would incorporate the musicians and instruments that were available. Undoubtedly fiddle, banjo and guitar were the most prevalent, but there were many exceptions and additions to that basic lineup. And since then it wasn't "old-time music" (though the record companies labeled it "old-time songs and tunes"), but just music, people weren't restrictive about whom they allowed in to play in what manner.

Also, on "old-time" vs. Celtic playing: I notice a sliding, loping sort of fiddle lead in old-time, without the triplets and grace notes that accomplished Celtic fiddlers use for ornamentation. Syncopation seems a good deal looser in the Appalachian styles, with less emphasis on crispness and a heavy "one" beat. These differences are noticeable even when the same tune's being played in one or the other style. But I also listen to a fair amount of Northeastern (New England, Adirondack) fiddling, which is stricter, less ornamented, with perhaps one foot in each camp...?

[M.Marmot]

Sticking my oar in late: "old-time in its strictest sense confined to fiddle and banjo" is IMHO a fairly recent attitude.

Also, on "old-time" vs. Celtic playing: I notice a sliding, loping sort of fiddle lead in old-time, without the triplets and grace notes that accomplished Celtic fiddlers use for ornamentation. Syncopation seems a good deal looser in the Appalachian styles, with less emphasis on crispness and a heavy "one" beat. These differences are noticeable even when the same tune's being played in one or the other style. But I also listen to a fair amount of Northeastern (New England, Adirondack) fiddling, which is stricter, less ornamented, with perhaps one foot in each camp...?

The reason i included the old-time in its 'strictest sense' being banjo and fiddle was simply to address and hopefully pass over one of those recurring debates that have been known to occur every so often on the cafe. When i say strictest i am really referring not to the music but rather the attitudes of those folks who would seek to restrict old-time to that formula.

My opinion, such as it is, on the subject is pretty much similar to your own views... i figure people back in the day made do with whatever instruments that were at hand or simply singing unaccompanied... and i imagine there was little in the way of grumbling by folks that any particular instrument was not 'indigenous'.

I have read several accounts that lead me to believe that a lot of what we percieve to be traditional musics, say, Irish, Old-time, Klezmer, are in fact only fairly recent genres and have found their 'traditional' identities through recordings. Quite often these recordings would have been fashioned through or influenced by an outsiders bias or record companies demands on what would sell.

I have in mind an account of a young Doc Watson playing electric guitar but being ushered towards the more 'authentic' acoustic guitar by the recording folks who wanted a more backwoods sound, or say the speed of Klezmer which may owe as much to the constraints of early recording technologies than any traditional virtuosity, or the similar phasing out of brass instruments, often found in early Ceidhlidh bands and the like from Irish musics.

A good book on the subject, with regards the Blues is 'In Search of the Blues, Black Voices, White Visions' which ably argues that a lot of the identity of pre-war acoustic blues owes a lot to outsiders perceptions of what that music was, perceptions that often run contrary to trends and attitudes of the actual communities from which this music came from.

On the subject of 'Old-Tim' versus 'Celtic' again i find myself in concurrence with your observations... i think that loping gait to the fiddle that you describe was also something that i was trying to express in other posts here in this thread

[Jim Nollman]

This thread somehow reminds me of Dylan at Newport in the famous electric concert. Before Newport Dylan was the king of folk, which was huge in the country at the time, but had recently gotten pushed down several notches by the British invasion. During Newport, when he started playing some of his old folk tunes backed by the Butterfield Band, Dylan was booed, and Pete Seeger was so mortified by it all he pulled the plug on the group. After Newport, Dylan became a rock and roll star.

I never thought his tunes changed very much. Only his instrumentation.

So if a banjo playing "Liberty" is traditional music, playing "Liberty" on synthesizer is....?

[M.Marmot]

This thread somehow reminds me of Dylan at Newport in the famous electric concert. Before Newport Dylan was the king of folk, which was huge in the country at the time, but had recently gotten pushed down several notches by the British invasion. During Newport, when he started playing some of his old folk tunes backed by the Butterfield Band, Dylan was booed, and Pete Seeger was so mortified by it all he pulled the plug on the group. After Newport, Dylan became a rock and roll star.

I never thought his tunes changed very much. Only his instrumentation.

So if a banjo playing "Liberty" is traditional music, playing "Liberty" on synthesizer is....?

I got a giggle at the reports that Mr. Seeger actually tried to take an axe to some of the cables in an effort to stop the electric madness and had to be restrained by others, with all due respect to Mr Seeger i dont really think its true but i do love the image of a hardcore folky going bezerk for such things.

As for a 'Liberty', i'm not familiar with the tune, but if it is 'traditional' then in and of itself most probably will always be judged traditional, but the arrangement/interpretation/instrumentation maybe judged otherwise, on a synth, folks might use that 'nice' cover-all term 'contemporary', as in 'a contemporary setting of a traditional tune'.:whistling:

[M.Marmot]

:redface:


On the subject of 'Old-Tim' versus 'Celtic' again i find myself in concurrence with your observations... i think that loping gait to the fiddle that you describe was also something that i was trying to express in other posts here in this thread

Old-Tim?

Now just who in the heck is Old-Tim and does he play the mandolin?:))

[allenhopkins]

This thread somehow reminds me of Dylan at Newport in the famous electric concert. Before Newport Dylan was the king of folk, which was huge in the country at the time, but had recently gotten pushed down several notches by the British invasion. During Newport, when he started playing some of his old folk tunes backed by the Butterfield Band, Dylan was booed, and Pete Seeger was so mortified by it all he pulled the plug on the group. After Newport, Dylan became a rock and roll star...I never thought his tunes changed very much. Only his instrumentation.

There's actually a pretty well-researched and authoritative Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_Dylan_controversy) on Dylan at Newport 1965 and the "going electric" controversy. Seeger has said subsequently that he was only upset by the bad sound mix for Dylan and the pick-up electric band he assembled from Paul Butterfield's group et. al., so that he said "if I had an axe I'd cut the sound cables."

I think there's quite a distance between Don't Think Twice and Leopard-Skin Pillbox Hat, let alone what D's written and recorded since, but no change in the ability to generate interest and controversy.

[Jim Nollman]

I think we're splitting hairs. "Don't think Twice" needs to be viewed as a unique lyric and melody, even within Dylan's catalog. Ironically, he didn't actually write the melody. There's a famous story of several songwriter's discovering the old melody at the same time off some old sheet music, and all of them setting to work to write lyrics before the others did it. I also grant you that "Leopard" is not at all "folky", but a typical NY pre-punk tune of that time. Sounds to me like Dylan was listening to The Velvet Underground when he wrote it.

I don't see such a "distance" between most of the best of the rest of it. Instrumentation evolved, certainly. And of course the man naturally evolved his formidable songwriting skills. The interesting thing about Dylan's songwriting is that his music remains so utterly universal. It's not just his lyrics, but his musical forms as well. His tunes lend themselves to being arranged using the entire gamut of possible instrumentation.

[JeffD]

I have a CD of Asleep At The Wheel, playing Liberty, and Red Wing, (both grand old timey tunes), as Western Swing. The effect is magnificent, but certainly not old timey.

[M.Marmot]

I have a CD of Asleep At The Wheel, playing Liberty, and Red Wing, (both grand old timey tunes), as Western Swing. The effect is magnificent, but certainly not old timey.

Those shoofty-swingers 'Hotclub of Cowtown' do a cracking version of 'Bonapartes Retreat' amongst others.