Scordatura mandolin?

[John Craton]

Recently I've begun playing through some of the violin sonatas of Heinrich Biber on mandolin. The Biber works have long been a favorite of mine on the vl, but I'd never before thought to try them on a mando. Some of them work quite well.

Thus far, however, I've only tried the sonatas that use standard EADG tuning, and of course some of Biber's most famous and beautiful sonatas were written for scordatura violin. I've never attempted scordatura tunings on the mando for fear of what it might do to the neck. I suppose the sonatas that tune all the strings down wouldn't be a problem, but would the higher tunings cause problems with the instrument? A luthier (violinmaker) once assured me that retuning a violin will cause no undue stress on the fiddle (though it's a good way to eat up a set of strings in fast order), but I seem to recall that the tension on a mando is already considerably higher than for a violin. Is that correct? Is it risky to attempt scordatura on a mandolin? Only on a cheapie mandolin, perhaps? Thoughts on this, anyone?

[Jim Garber]

What tunings would you use?

I haven't tried any alternate tunings on a bowlback but on my carved tops i have tuned to AEAE often. Probably okay for a little whiole tho i would not keep the instrument tune that way for months at a time. You could use lighter strings on those tuned up ones if you wanted to use that instrument with that tuning all the time.

BTW I have a few pieces that were written for retuned mandolin. Very popular in the parlor era. usually one string might be a third down. There are a few on my sheet music page: scroll down to Four Mandolin solo pieces using altered tunings (http://www.paperclipdesign.com/19ctunes/).

Jim

[Bob A]

Haven't done alt tunings on mando, but most of my guitars are in open tunings. If you've an extra instrument, or are seriously into the concept, restringing with appropriately gauged strings would keep the tensions tolerable.

Of course, on guitar I'd end up tuning down a pitch or two, so I'd have to use heavier strings to keep them from feeling too flabby. The danger is forgetting that you've done so, and cranking them up to standard pitch, and doing some damage thereby.

[Jacob]

This might be best approached by quantifying the total tension exerted for specific scale length, string gauges, and tuning.
A string tension calculator such as Doug Dieter's Universal String Tension Calculator (http://www.kennaquhair.com/ustc.htm) will help to evaluate various mandolin string sets (http://www.juststrings.com/mandolin.html).
My approach for non-standard tunings has been to use the total tension of a manufacturer's string set for a reference, and calculate what size strings to use for a desired tuning that are balanced across the courses and do not exceed the total tension of this reference load.
Although I have no bowl-backed mandolins, this approach has permitted me to use numerous irregular tuning with no damage to my guitars, banjo, mandolas and bouzouki.

[vkioulaphides]

Ugh... I did once hear a performance of Biber's COMPLETE collection you speak of, subtitled Armonia artifiziosa-speziosa. Ugh, again. Life is too short and too complicated as it is. If you wish to perform these pieces, you will need not one but SEVERAL mandolins, as each piece is in a DIFFERENT scordatura. Ugh, thrice...

Remember: While masochism is not illegal, it certainly isn't advisable, either.

[Jim Garber]

Ugh...
Victor:
Is the "ugh" for the music itself or for the prospect of retuning?

One thing I would certainly find difficult is reading the scores for these things. The pieces i mentioned above are notated with the tuning indicated but the notation standard. How are these notated? And, once again, John, please let us know what some of these tunings are.

Of course, in my other life as a mandolinist and fiddle of American old time music, there are quite a few tunes played in what they call "cross tuning." But this doesn't involve reading music and basically you learn the tunes by ear.

BTW usual tunings are AEAE, GDGD and AEAC#.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Jim, the "ugh" goes both ways:

The scordaturas are a smokescreen. The strings sound either flaccid (when tuned lower than the manufacturer's specs) or stringent (when tuned higher). So, what are you to do? Will you also order different STRINGS for each different VIOLIN, in order to play each different PIECE?!?!?!? Ugh, I say.

Biber ain't no Bach, no Haydn, no Mozart. If you are going to make my brain turn into a pretzel, you better have better reasons than Biber's perfunctory sonatas. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Also, think kinesthetics-to-ear-to-brain: Fingering a fourth, what a lifetime has ingrained in your consciousness as a fourth, and hearing some other interval instead, can be seriously injurious to your mental health.

In short: Ugh!

[John Craton]

The tunings for the Mystery Sonatas are as follows:

1. The Annunciation - EADG (standard)
2. The Visitation - EAEA
3. The Nativity - DBF#B
4. The Presentation - DADA
5. The Finding of Jesus in the Temple - C#AEA
6. The Mount of Olives - DGEbAb
7. The Scourging - CAFC
8. The Crowning with Thorns - DBbFD
9. The Carrying of the Cross - EAEC
10. The Crucifixion - DADG
11. The Resurrection - DDGG (requires restringing)
12. Ascension into Heaven - CGEC
13. Pentecost EC#EA
14. The Assumption of the Virgin - DAEA
15. The Crowning of Mary - DDCG

I have played all (on the violin) except #11 which requires restringing entirely. I will admit that when you first attempt these it takes awhile to get used to fingering one note and hearing another, but one quickly becomes accustomed to it. Obviously, they were written for gut strings, and gut definitely works best for these pieces. But a couple years ago Pirastro sent me a complimentary set of their new Violino strings, and I figured what the heck and tuned the #### out of those things. They held up remarkably well, despite being twisted every which way but the right way.

Scordatura produces some delicious overtones on a good violin, but as I say I've never tried it on a mando. The "ugh," in my opinion, is well worth it in the final analysis as these are among the most heavenly pieces I've ever played. I've introduced one of my advanced students to the scordatura works by Biber and he too has fallen in love with these sonatas. (He also did the Vivaldi Bb Major concerto, which requires tuning the G up to a Bb. He used it in a competition and got some very admiring comments from the judges, though he didn't win that year; did the next with the DeBeriot 9th.)

Many people look at Biber's scoradtura works as gimmicks, but the resonances he achieved with these tunings make for great dramatic effect in the music. (Most of these works can be played using standard tunings, but the tonalities are very different.)

By the way, he also wrote several sonatas in standard tunings, the Sonata Representative being my favorite for its onomatopoeic representations of birds, frogs, chickens, etc. Haven't tried that one on mando -- don't think it would work well at all.

[John Craton]

can be seriously injurious to your mental health.
I gave up on sanity years ago http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Eugene]

Well, I admit to a strange fondness for the "Mystery" sonatas, especially the closing Passacaglia, but this well-crafted slam of them is mighty funny, brain turning "into a pretzel" and all.

[Eugene]

By the way, no matter how good your instrument, I doubt the plucked sonority would lend itself well to the quirky oft-rich sonority I associate with the scordatura sonatas of this set. #Please, feel free to pluck away and prove me wrong.

[margora]

Hmm, this discussion does give me the idea of trying the Biber out on guitar.

[Eugene]

Just to inspire you, Robert, there is a period Biber arrangement for solo lute performed by Nigel North on:

Romanesca. 1994. Biber: Violin Sonatas. Harmonia Mundi, HMU 907134.35.

There is also a great performance of the Sonata Representativa with Andrew Manze on violin. Particularly freaky is the movement "Fresch" (i.e., frog).

[John Craton]

There is also a great performance of the Sonata Representativa with Andrew Manze on violin. #Particularly freaky is the movement "Fresch" (i.e., frog).
The "Fresch" section is great fun. In my edition of the Sonata that I did for Wolfhead Music, I instructed the performer to "scratch" one note (putting excess pressure on the bow -- the sound most beginning students are wont to make) to elicit a froglike croke. Many glissandos, too, especially in the "Katz" (cat) section. These are reasons I don't think this sonata would play well at all on the mando -- though I'm sure in the hands of someone like Richard Walz some very interesting alternative interpretations would result.

[margora]

Eugene, thanks for reminding me, I have the Romanesca recording.