Need advice on options for a poor repair job

[Mark Marino]

I'm not a builder, but I'm hoping that some of you builders out there may be able to give me some good advice. I had done my research (at least I really tried to), and sent my prize F4 away to have a new neck installed. #What I got back was an unplayable piece of junk. #The guy claimed his work was on par with the best, and cited even doing work for Grisman. His feedback I checked on was great. #

But to give you an idea how bad things are, the neck is set at the incorrect angle- so with the bridge all the way down, the action is still too high. #The frets are filed very low, so it buzzes even with the very high action. #The dot markers on the neck are oversized, out of round, and not even in a straight line. #The finish work is poor enough that you can see putty lines where the new neck joins the body, and the paint has not been rubbed out. #

I retained part of my payment, but that's chump-change: this dirtball has all but wrecked a good old mandolin. #He's many states away, and I would appreciate any advice on what my options are to go after this guy for damages if it comes to that. #Thanks.

[jim simpson]

Mark,
I'm sorry to hear about the poor quality work. I'm not sure what to suggest but I was curious as to whether this one was the one that was on Ebay a while back. It had half of the headstock missing splintered down into the first frets. I can't remember what it sold for but it exceeded my limit. How did you find this fellow? Did someone you know use him? I am about to send a guitar project off to a luthier for an estimate to put it together for me. I had purchased an old Martin guitar top and back then had the sides bent to a pattern and a neck located. I met and played with this guy this summer plus saw one of the guitars he made. He is a friend of a friend so I'm hoping my experience will be positive. Good luck.

[sunburst]

I can only assune that you expressed your dissatisfaction to the person that did the poor job.
That would be the obvious first step toward getting your money back, which, I think you deserve.
If you can't reach a settlement through communication, I'd say get a little legal advice before you proceed.

[Luthier Vandross]

Sorry to hear about that.

I don't know of all the repair people in the world, but when we talk about the best ones we know in the shop, there's a list that you can count on one hand.

Whatever it looks like now can be undone, all is not lost, it just sucks.


M

[Rob Grant]

Mark,

Out of personal curiosity, could you post a small (>50kb size) photo of the work around the neck joint? Don't mention any names, I'm just interested in what constitutes true "butchery."

[Jim Garber]

Water under the bridge, of course.... but, just curious... Why would it need a whole new neck as opposed to work on the existing neck. Those old Gibsons had rock solid necks and I am surprised it needed a new one at all, unless it was run over by a truck or something.

Jim

[Michael Lewis]

As advised, try to settle everything with the "butcher". If that fails seek legal advice. Consider the total value of the instrument, and weigh that against any possible legal costs, count your blessings and move on. You can pursue the legal aspect if you wish, but how much justice can you afford?

[Keith Newell]

Good point Michael it's a sad thing when justice costs so much. The way things are now days it seems nobody is responsible for their work/actions.
Keith

[sailaway]

There will be a few difficulties in your pursuing legal action against this so-called Badrepairer but they a re not insurmountable.. You need to find a good shop with a national reputation (maybe Elderly or Mandolin Brothers could do this or recommend someone ) and then send off your mando for 'evaluation', asking them to provide a written appraisal of its present condition and its value, and specifying what repair is necessary to make it playable again and in good shape. . (without telling them why you need this written appraisal.) ) Then -- with GoodRepairer's written appriasal in hand -- mail a copy to Badrepairer , and demand the cost of making this mando good again. If Badrepairer doesn't r efund all of your money plus all of your costs to get the the Goodrepairer to do the job, sue Badrepairer . You don't necessarily need a lawyer who will charge 4200--300 an hour to sue for you 9 thus running up a $2,000 bill on top of your other damages). you should see if your state has a 'small claims court' (usually $5000- to $25,000 in value )-- where you don't need to hire a lawyer to sue someone . Then proceed accordingly -- by the way if you go to small claims court -- take copies of all fo your correspondence with Badrepairer, all proof you paid him, a copy of the Goodrepairer appraisal and repair estimate, and bring the actual Badrepair job mando , AND a good playable one, and play the judges a tune -- I'm sure that would help you win your case.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[jim simpson]

Okay Mark,
We have offered advise as well as asked you a few questions. Don't keep us suspense!We want to know!
Jim

[Mark Marino]

Sorry for the delay guys, and thanks for the caring responses. I've been travelling this week, and just got back.

To answer your questions, first, I bought this mandolin off ebay about two years ago. It had been refinished, but sounded great. Just had cosmetic issues, and I certainly can't afford a pristine collector's piece. At that time, the neck looked as if it had been broken right at the nut and repaired badly, including the binding around the headstock,so the guy offered a neck replacement. I opted for this route because it seemed to be a way to fix it right. I had seen some work that he had done, and viewed both feedback on ebay and his website. He indicated to me that his shop was doing "comparable work to Gibson these days".

I have contacted this guy to voice my dissatisfaction- he's claiming that my expectations were unrealistic, and he really doesn't want to see this thing back- claims he's lost too much money on it. Anyhow, I'll let you be the judge on the quality, and my expectations.

Keeping in mind that this is a totally new neck, fretboard, and binding, take a look at the attachment. I will post a few more pictures individually- I can't figure out if there is a way to attach more than one.

[Mark Marino]

Further, here is a picture of where the neck attaches to the body at the scroll. There's not great definition in the picture, but the surface is rough and mottled. The valleys and bumps in the finish are fairly deep, and there's no smooth surface anywhere to be found.

[Keith Newell]

Mark, I dont know what to say. The first thought is this is a scam post to get others riled up because it is the absolutely worst work for a repair I have seen ( a picture of steel strap clamps and lag bolts through a headstock flash in my mind from another post but I resist it).
If these are the after picture for sure then if you didn't try to get money and damages money back from this I would be very dissapointed in mankind.
Keith

[Keith Newell]

I had to post again right away. I think the 6 hour mando post had better work.
Keith

Good Lord!........hang him!

In all honesty, tell us who did this & spare another member the future grief of dealing with this guy!

[Big Joe]

A lot of the work we get is fixing stuff other "professional" repair people did. It is amazing how many terrible repair people there are. Lots of claims, but not many who can really do the work. That job could have been done by a kindergarten art class with better success!

[Philip Halcomb]

Jeeezzz... Looks like he tried to distress the neck to match the rest of the piece... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif Well, too bad you can't post names, that would just be unprofessional, but I hope I don't accidently send my instrument to that fellow...

[Rob Grant]

Thanks for the pix(s)Mark. I would say, without a doubt, that is a prime example of "true butchery." Then again, I don't want to insult people who are in the meat preparation trade by associating them in any way with the joker that did this work.

[Dave Cohen]

Repair is not the same as building. There are some overlapping skills, but there are also exclusive ones. I think that the most ethical course for a luthier looking at a potential repair job is to know his/her limitations. I generally take on routine jobs such as refretting, etc., but most often defer when confronted with a difficult restoration on a vintage instrument. There are shops which specialize in difficult repairs and/or restorations. With an old instrument, I think that it is worthwhile to seek those shops out. Obvious examples are the Gibson shop (for old Gibson instruments), Frank Ford (of Gryphon Instruments), Dan Erlewine, etc. I usually suggest a short list of folks like that for restorations of vintage instruments.

[neal]

Well, I for one would like to know who it is. #That's just sad. #And Flip, #it wouldn't be unprofessional to let us know his name, #we're not professionals.

Write this guy, tell him that unless he makes good on this slap job, you will post who did this.

How much did he charge you for this?

[Luthier Vandross]

What a hack job, you tell him I said so.

Please PM me this guys name.


Miles

[Michael Lewis]

I wouldn't try to force the hack to do the repair. Tell him that his work is his reputation and ask if he understands. Personally, I would be against having the guy do anything else to the instrument, as he has already shown his inclination. Like Sunburst's line,"it's much easier to hide intelligence than to hide stupidity", or something of the sort.

[Mark Marino]

Thanks for the input. After some careful thought, prayer, and fits of anger, I've decided to not have this guy touch this again. I've spent the last few days emailing him back and forth- he sticks by his mantra of "I'm unpleasable". Additionally, his responses have now shifted from defending his work to how he can't afford to do the work it will take to get it to my liking- so I doubt any action would lead to any recovery on my part.

At least for now, I'm not going to post his name. as much as I'm frustrated, I just don't feel right about it. If you really have a need to know, please email and tell me why, and I'll consider disclosing in confidence (marinos@chartermi.net). Just for the sake of disqualification, he's in Austin TX.

So right now I'm thinking it needs to be totally refinished, a new fretboard, new binding, and a new headstock overlay. The body is sound, and sounded great before the work was done. Anybody have advice on whether I'm further ahead just burining it, or selling as-is on ebay? I'm frightened to sell it, because even fully disclosing it's faults, I'm vulnerable to bad feedback.

BTW: I spent way too much on this repair. Overall, I paid this hack about $1400. Heck, I grew up in the '70s- maybe a can of bondo and a can of primer...

[Luthier]

OMG #That is outrageous!!! #Reminds me of a line from Clint Eastwood in "The Enforcer"
......" a mans got to know his limitations" #That truly is sad and I don't know how that person can sleep at night knowing what he did! #That just makes for really bad Karma.

Don

[Chris Baird]

I my opinion the free market system doesn't work so well without educated consumers. #While I have seen vindictative and near slanderous attacks on folks who have done others wrong with poor work and high prices it doesn't have to be presented that way. #You as a consumer have every right to say here is the repair here is the cost and here is the man, decide what you will about 'em. #You would be helping possibly inumerable folks from the same anguish by educating us on who this fella is. Being devoid of any negative or slanderous opinions reduces the information to the truth, and when is the truth a sin? It certainly would be too bad to hear a similiar story again, and often times that is how it goes.

[Tom C]

..or else we all make sure our mandos do not go anywhere near TX for a repair.

[mandough]

I agree with Chris. I don't think it is wrong to "showcase" a repairman's work (good or bad). Afterall, it IS the work that he did.
If that guy is pleased with his work and says he stands by it, than you are not doing a disservice by revealing his name. If HE gets upset that you posted his name, than he was being disingenuous with his assessment of his repair job.

[Lee]

Mark, would you still withold the fellows name if it was your dentist who did this to your teeth?

[8ch(pl)]

I would sue for the value of a replacement vintage F-4 Gibson. This work is terrible.

[mandough]

Holy Shnikes! I missed the part about the $1400 payout to this guy! You've got to get your money back!
That's alot of money to pay only to have it redone by someone who is going to charge you another arm and leg to fix it.
If you don't get your money back, you'll only be a stub, both armless and legless!
Don't make a flesh wound a mortal wound!

[Rob Grant]

My next question would be, why did you part with $1400 dollars (US) before carefully examining the work done? Makes me wonder if the original post is a "spoof." Sorry,
but my dough comes too hard to part with it that easy.

[Luthier Vandross]

That is a shame... it's a shame that guy needs, looks like.


M

[Michael Lewis]

With that much money and your mandolin at stake I would take this problem to small claims court. Anyone doing this kind of work should be held accountable. Ask for your money to be returned and some more for the damage done.

Don't be upset with your mandolin, it can still be saved if you can get it into competent hands. I wouldn't tell a luthier what to do regarding refurbishing it, ask some questions and listen to suggestions, think about it for a while and then decide what should be done. When it comes to repair/restoration, the less that is changed the better. Just set it right and enjoy the instrument for many years. If you are in the Austin area go ask Tom Ellis who to take it to.

[Jim Garber]

I would also ask for the original neck back, if he didn't throw it out already. A neck that is even snapped off can be properly repaired by someone who know what he/she is doing.

Come to think of it... are you even sure that that neck is a brand new one. It looks like it could have been the original and butchered.

Jim

[labraid]

Let's get with the guy's name already, in public.. If he's so happy with his work, show the world what a great repairmen he is. Promote his excellent luthery skills which he has obviously worked several minutes to master!

[Philip Halcomb]

Well, I for one would like to know who it is. #That's just sad. #And Flip, #it wouldn't be unprofessional to let us know his name, #we're not professionals.
Well sorry Neal, I didn't mean to offend you...

[Philip Halcomb]

I have to agree with Michael Lewis on that... Take him to small claims, atleast here in NY the only thing you have to lose is $25 bucks. Although, even if you win, which you most certainly will, there's no guarantee he'll pay you...

[craigtoo]

...send the mando to Big Joe and Charlie for the repair after all the dust settles...
It'll be done right...!

craig

[neal]

Flip. no offense taken. The only offense is the hack job this guy did. Now that's offensive.

[Mark in Nevada City]

Please tell me the original neck still exists! You need to get it back and right this wrong.

I'm gonna have nightmares over this one.

[krishna]

MarkF4, Look,it's time we had a little talk. This guy just took you for 1400 bucks and you have a badly damaged mando that gonna cost you another wack of dough to get fixed. You email the clown.You direct him to the cafe,and to this thread.Tell him you are being presured to give his name and if you don't get your money back,you not only will take him to small claims court,you will release his name to the potential (imaginary) lynchmob here at this prestigeous site. We want to see you standing up for yourself,not being pushed around and manipulated.Your obligation to keep his name a secret died when he told you he was'nt giving you a dime back. I'm a Canadian and we DON"T sue people up here. So LISTEN to what I'm telling you. You have GOT to deal with this.Burying this problem by not telling us who,and then taking all this damage without ANY reprecussions is UNACCEPTABLE! There is'nt ANYONE who has read this thread that would disagree with me on this.(is there?)God did'nt put that nice axe into your hot little hands to be ruined by this hack .DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT! ...Kerry PS I prayed about if I should post this too...

[labraid]

Right on brother, that's the way to say it like ye mean it! #
I dunno about you guys but I got my imaginary pickaxe in hand..

[Mark Marino]

All, #

In my attempts to resolve this, he's made it clear that he doesn't have any money at this point. #He responded to my emails both defensively and offensively, mainly challenging my expectations. So, in the interest of full and fair disclosure, here's a more detailed summary of how this all played out. I never read postings that ramble on with details, so I simplified the story in earlier emails, but it's essentially correct. #

1. #I bought this mandolin on ebay 2 years ago- it had an old refinish job, and a couple minor top-cracks. #

2. #Last year, I saw work this guy did on ebay, and the quality looked good. #After checking further, I contacted him about restoration- repainting the original color, along with some restoration work (top-cracks and a new fretboard...). #All in all, I spent about $800 on these repairs. #The body painting looked good, but the fretboard and headstock binding work was poor. #Basically, he attributed that to the difficulty of working with the old neck. #Right or wrong, I bought into that. #He actually shows this instrument on his website with the new paint job as of this writing. #The only thing he doesn't mention is that he talked me into the elaborate fingerboard inlay, claiming it was characteristic of the "artist" model of the day. #

3. #This year, the neck developed a crack at the base of the headstock. #Because he had firsthand knowledge of the instrument and did the prior rework, I contacted him to address this problem. #He quoted this two ways- a new neck, or repair of the old neck. #He also cited work he had done recently for Grisman and others. #After attributing the poor workmanship (first time around) to the old neck, I assumed that a whole new neck would be the best way to go- and would resolve the remaining questionable areas. #Since then, he has indicated (for the first time) that the prior neck was not original.

4. #So last month I received it back, and the quality of the workmanship was well... the pictures tell the rest of the story.

The pictures I posted specifically illustrate workmanship on the new neck and it's installation- to avoid him blaming this on prior condition, or the age of the instrument. #I don't see that there should be any reason the headstock of a NEW NECK would have workmanship issues such as those displayed in the pictures I posted. #Maybe joining it to the body caused unexpected difficulties, but this guy never contacted me to discuss problems or anything. #The bill for this job was $777 plus shipping- of which I did withold $200. #

I have a heap of emails that document this entire misadventure, along with his claims of "work on par with Gibson". #

His name is Dan'l Terry-- his business is called Frett'd Treasures. #

So with that said, I'm starting to search for someone to fix this thing up right. #It will never be pristine at this point, but needs to be a whole lot better. #Any interest please let me know- a payment plan would be a must.

Mark

marinos@chartermi.net

[saznpins]

I'm sorry that your mandolin was butchered Mark, that guy really did a number on it http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif I can only say that I hope you can get it repaired and back to working order soon, and wish you luck. Keep us posted on what happens.

Small claims court definitely sounds like a good option. Maybe you can get some of your money back to offset the repairs that it will need to make it playable again?
Cheers,
Sarah

[neal]

I've seen this guy on ebay, he has had some nice looking stuff. Too bad he hacked this one up, I'll keep it in mind. And thank you for sharing your experience. Hope you get resolution.

[krishna]

I'm not used to typing and thinking about something for a half hour like I did last night, but with your responce Mark , I feel pretty good about it.Thanks for responding so quick. You should tell him about this thread though...Is there anything else we as a community can do to help?(still sue him)...Kerry

[sflem1039]

Hope you can obtain satisfaction.

When you get to the point to repair your mandolin, I recommend using Gibson repair service through Valley Arts in Nashville, TN.

The good news is, I think you're mandolin can be repaired. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I have crossed Frett'd Treasures off of my list !! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

[mandoryan]

I was looking at the Frett'd Treasures website at the mandolin in question and the binding work on the peghead is just aweful. I don't know how this guy can call himself a luthier after looking at that. What's up with the fretboard? He claimed that they were done that way on the original ones? Yeah... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

"For information on investment opportunities in the company, please contact us for a prospectus and business plan."

Hahaha........interesting reading!

[Dan'l Terry]

Yes, those macro photos are damning. And the butcher will suffer a well deserved reputation for destroying a "prized F4". The poster wrote, "I'll send the mando with an old Funky rosewood bridge for now, and the old Kluson tuners on it. I'll also include a set of Schaller tuners...We'll deal with the bridge and tailpiece down the road a bit. I'll be really interested to see what you find regarding original appearance. ... I have not seen many F4's- none in this color." That is a description of the "prized" mandolin, that has been reputedly totally destroyed. Another photo is presented below of the butchered mandolin.

Yes. He wondered what the original color might have been like. I had the opportunity to see it as it was found. Few repair persons choose to hand apply a oil paint sunburst on vintage GIbsons. When I first saw this instrument it had non original - tuners, bridge, fretboard, neck, headstock veneer & trapeze, no tailpiece, missing and uneven binding, bondo on areas near the neck joint and scroll, several cracks and an uneven top. And the back didn't fit from a prior repair. No pickguard. And the neck block was filled with wood and bondo for a unique top load neck attachment of the wrong neck. I wish I could find the original photos of this dog, but I had a computer crash several years ago and they were lost. Yes. Several years ago. This instrument was first partially restored back in 2002. It came back for some finer detail work later that year. And again this year for some other changes and improvements.

Yes, the workmanship in the macro photos show need for improvement. And $1400. What a rip off. But that included a David Nichols made fretboard $450 (billed to Mark at $300), his headstock veneer with inlay $200 (billed at $160), a new Stewmac neck, 3 complete refinishes, 4 rounds of binding replacement, new frets - twice, major surgery to make the new neck attach to a long ago filled in and modified neck block with part of the soundboard missing to accomodate the unique attachment of the non-original neck.

I am the butcher that "destroyed' this poor man's "Prize F4". The reality is I failed to locate the damning evidence that showed what this instrument really looked like before. It was a long time ago.

The instrument has been here three times. Each time I'd do what I could and yes it's not perfect. It has been far from perfect for decades. It was in all honesty an Ebay DOG that was barely playable, and about an ugly a pieced together mongrel as the worst of what we see there routinely. The photos are long gone but what Mark wrote in a score or more of emails and phone calls is not, so I'll have to let him tell you a bit about it's earlier condition.

"Please take a look at the area around where the neck joins the body. Even if it takes some wood filler, see if there is anything you can do to smooth that out- especially the area below the tip of the pickguard. That area looked really bad when I bought it, looks like finish was used as filler, and the small piece of binding in the corner is really rough." Gee, I didn't fix it good enough, but frankly - well, a pig's ear...

Mark is being a bit disingenuous, and changes what he says with his mood. "I really want a good playable piece in the end, over authenticity. For the most part it's really stunning (from my earlier repair), and motivates me to possibly take it a bit further."

Let's see what else he's said over the past two years...
"Let me start with my 'wish list', and maybe you can make recommendations on what can be done.
1.. The fretboard (the one with the tree of life) is about twice as thick as a typical fretboard." Well David Nichols makes many of those Gibson fretboards and made this one. Standard thickness. Thicker than what it had (1/16") so from his perspective "too thick".

"2.. I would really like to change to taller frets." Taller than the tallest Dunlops available apparently, because that's what's on it and he's still complaining.

"5. The binding that is on the headstock and fretboard doesn't match that of the body (body is solid creme color, neck is grained to look like ivory)." Well gee, 80 year old nitrocellulous binding s a bit hard to come by these days. First it was too thin and pieces were missing. Then too uneven some areas being thinner than others. And the ivoroid. Funny how things like removing the back and neck and binding several times (before I got it) that binding and other parts don't fit like they do on new instruments.

"My guess is that the fretboard could be removed, planed down, and reattached, along with doing some touch-up to the neck finish. However, looking at the neck, I really wonder about the strength of it right where the nut is. Getting an aftermarket neck and replacing this one (reusing the fretboard and headstock veneer) would let me sleep better."

I shouldn't have taken the job knowing it was going to be a difficult, maybe impossible repair on an instrument that had been badly buggered long before I attempted to bring it back to life, but that was just one of my errors. The headstock veneer...different shape on the new neck. DIfferent hole placement. Schaller tuners I was asked to use are for post 20s F5 specs. Tight fit & required some modification to the original non original headstock, but still not ideal. Did what I could. Damn me.


If I were smart, I'd have told him leave the frets and board alone. Chico, my assistant told me I was nuts to even try, "it's fine as it is." I'm not that smart. And the client's ALWAYS right, Right? Pulling the frets on a fretboard of that elaborate inlay is always a challenge. I actually had Chico refret it twice because the first frets were too low I thought after leveling, crowning and dressing wanting to honor Mark's request. The first time the instrument was here, he was not charged for the fretwork AT ALL. And when it came back for further restoration not addressed the first time, I credited him several hundred dollars for work I did poorly and did not charge for those repairs or expenses in the redo.

He describes this instrument as an unplayable piece of junk. Hardly. The string height when it shipped was a whole 1/16" at the 17th fret. There was not a buzz on any string or fret anywhere. It sounded better (with a more solid neck joint) significantly than it ever had before in the last few decades I'm sure.

Below please see what this butcher made this instrument look like. Yes. If you get out the magnifying lens the inner part of the scroll is not buffed or sanded. It's got 90 years of gunked up plaster or bondo and dirt and finish in there. I considered myself lucky to get it cleaned up enough to get a strap in there. Yes. I could have spend another few hours or days improving that area and hand buffing it with a cotton swab.

And the ugliness at the nut is unforgiveable. But for a whole $500 I guess that means we owe every nitpicky client full time service until we meet every standard they might impose on every detail. And Mark is a nice guy most of the time and I tried. But you know some people are hard to please.

The side dots I originally installed were abalone dots. "too small and not easy enough to see". The ebony ones are too big, and out of perfect round. I offered to rebind the neck for free again with whatever he wanted in there for side dots. If I were to share the pages of documents we've passed back and forth you'd see that by correcting one issue, he'd find fault with something else. Action was too high. Now it's too low. This has been going on for a long, long time. When we shipped it, we thought he'd be thrilled. We did what was major surgery and brought it back to life. It has some unavoidable scars from it's days as a junkyard dog. But I can't afford to throw in free plastic surgery to try to fix those, and neither could Mark so I didn't even ask. The reality is the instrument sounds wonderful. It plays like a dream. Chico my assistant (who plays mandolin professionally with Alton Rex) who also tested this, tore it up playing Django and Grisman standards for hours. It looks beautiful. Save for a few details.

I have given this gentleman's instrument a great deal of love and care, and well over 100 hours of work. Taking away the direct expenses requested the bill for labor (over 2 years and three visits of the mandolin) totals less than $500. And as Mark said, he withheld a few hundred of that, plus the cost of shipping and insurance. At some point I had to say, enough is enough. The budget was not free to float to cover the never ending job. The criticism and quite literal slander over the details that are ugly are great lessons.

It was a butchered mongrel long before I tried to save it, not as successfully as I would have liked. Maybe I earned as much as $3.00 an hour for the work that went into this instrument's salvation, not counting overhead.

And the funny thing is that the goal I am striving for is to become the best luthier the world has ever known. It's a goal. I've got a long way to go. There are those out there far better than I today. And they charge many times more than I, so the rank amateurs and wanna-bes can't afford to have their instrument fixed by them. I'm not going to stop trying. Even Frank Ford, C.F. Martin, and Flip Scipio were butchers for a long time before they were gifted surgeons. And I'll learn from every one of these mistakes and "butcher" jobs. Maybe I won't get to be the best, but I'll get darned close when I fail.

This instrument and the lies that went into presenting it as a "prized" treasure that I destroyed is a great lesson, and my work will improve because of it. In his own words (not shared with any in this forum), "Well, I stared at and played the F4 quite a bit last night, enough to gauge like's & dislikes. It really is a work of art. "

That was before I (or whatever bug got into his soup) pissed him off, and he chose to try to destroy my reputation and business.

Which reminds me. Why would someone ask for a replica early Gibson label without the "replica" overprint I add to avoid charges of fraud or misrepresentation? I did not provide one, and maybe that's what really got his goat. Ebay scam anyone, not that any of you would be fooled?

I challenge any of you non - butchers out there to take Mark up on his plan to have it done "right". Good luck. It'd be easier to build one from scratch and tell him it's fixed. Probably a lot cheaper and faster too.

"THE DIRTBAG BUTCHER"

[Dan'l Terry]

PS. I never fixed an instrument for David Grisman in spite of what you in this forum have been told, and until Mr. Marino breached his agreement for strict confidentially I had kept Mr. Grisman and my other clients (some of whom have contributed to this thread prior to my name being published) out of all public discussions, postings, and promotions. Deepest apologies, David.

But to correct a falsehood attributed to me, Mr. Grisman does own an instrument I restored prior to his purchase. I must assume that is what was referred to.

It's never come back so I guess judging from the lynching I've experienced here, he must have thrown it away if he had any sense. Like Mark has suggested he thinks he needs to do with his, short of a new refinish, new fretboard, new headstock veneer and new binding. Maybe he should just donate it to some school or a real player who'll appreciate it for what it is and take a tax writeoff instead of making mountains out of molehills. Just a suggestion.
More photos below of the butcher job.

[duuuude]

Like the news dude says: "Now you know the rest of the story. Thanks for telling your side Dan'l.

[kudzugypsy]

there is a good moral in this Dan'l.
a good friend of mine bought a 'basket case" 1934 d-28, and right off, took it to one of the best luthiers in the state for restoration. he took one look at it and handed it back saying he would not do the work. not that he couldnt do the work, but he didnt want his name attached to the guitar in any way. see he had learned long ago that the LAST guy to work on it is gonna get ALL the bad rap for the previous 60+ years of hack job the guitar had suffered.
although my friend was speechless, i thought it a pretty smart policy.

[Dan'l Terry]

The blessing is that those are the kinds of lessons that we each must learn first hand before they sink in. The best thing that came out of this experience is the reminder that from decaying fertilizer can come rich fruit.

Thank you for the recognition of the larger picture in the situation.

Dan'l

[fatt-dad]

I have read this full thread and found it very interesting. Dan'l's photos and story are very compelling. Thanks for your time.

f-d

[mandough]

I totally understand your side of it Dan'l. Being a photographer, sometimes there is no pleasing a customer or client. Their expectations are sometimes WAYYYY in the clouds somewhere or they're just not communicating their ideas very well.
However....some of that finish work was pretty atrocious (you must admit, especially the dots and around the headstock binding/nut). If you really want to be the best luthier out there (which I agree that mistakes will be made along the path to greatness), you've got to finish better. Sometimes a great finish can underscore some bad work, but it is never the reverse.

[Dan'l Terry]

I did so admit and took full responsibility, and offered to replace the binding and dots on the necks without additional charges, conditional on being paid for the major work involved and compensated for shipping. When it rearrived I'd have done what I could to touch and clean up the finish on the side near the nut. Beyond that I'd have to be compensated.

[Jorge Rosales]

My experience with Dan'l doing work on my instrument has been great. He is very polite and very prompt in answering any questions via email that I may have(which I do often). When he did work on my instrument, he replaced my saddle and nut with real ivory at no extra cost when he could easily have charged me for that. I have even commissioned him in building a very custom instrument and I do hold a lot of confidence in his work and ethic.
Sincerely,
Jorge Rosales

[fatt-dad]

Welcome Jorge Rosales!

[Jorge Rosales]

I need to apologize to the people here. In October of 2004 I had commissioned a very custom harp guitar from Dan'l Terry of Frett'd Treasures. The experience has not been good. I feel that I may have been wrong for defending him. I am losing a great deal of confidence on his work and ethic. I am hoping that he will right a wrong. This is his chance to make amends.
Jorge Rosales

[Stephen Perry]

Still looks like online fora aren't the place to settle disputes! Just a mutual opportunity to sling mud.

[Jorge Rosales]

To Dan'l's credit, he is trying to work it out. I am not trying to bash him. As a consumer, what rights do I have? Trying to get him to respond to my emails simply asking him on the status of my instrument is sometimes frustrating. Two months with no answer is a long time for me. Maybe I am being unfair. I finally did some "mudslinging" hoping to get a response, in which he did respond. Maybe the damage is already done, and maybe no one will want to do business with him as a luthier or do business with me as a "mean mudslinging customer". If you feel that what I am doing is wrong with airing dirty laundry then I may delete the previous post. I will say that Dan'l is trying, and that is all that matters to me right now. I am trying to stand up for myself, & maybe this wasn't the best way. Your further input is greatly appreciated.

[markishandsome]

If it's been over two and a half years since you commissioned this instrument, I don't think you're being a mean mudslinger. I don;t think you need to apologize either for defending him or for defaming him. You're just giving us the facts as you see them, it's up for us to decide whether to do business with this guy.

[Stephen Perry]

So much depends on what result one seeks. Resolution often seems further away after doing battle in a forum. Established methods for resolving disputes with business exist. I've found these to be effective and have only reached the point of filing suit once in a music business dispute. Once a dispute is out in the open, bad feelings tend to arise and persist.

Emails and phone calls are only the very basic first steps in attracting someone's attention sufficiently to move your problem to the top of the pile. Ramping up the formality and crispness of the communication works most times.

[Michael Lewis]

Stephen, eloquently put.