Jack White

[jbrwky]

Just watched disk #2 from Cold Mountain Video. Anyone really know this guy, Jack White? Is he the Johnny Depp of Old Time Music? Sorry if this is a completely ignorant question. Most are anyway.

[John Flynn]

Oh, now you've opened up a can of worms! There were some "highly flamed" threads on this some time ago. Here is my opinion, even though I will probably get flamed again for it:

Jack White is a kind of new-age rock and roller. He has a group, "The White Stripes" which is just him on electric guitar and his ex-wife on drums. No bass, nothing else. I am a passionate rock and roll fan of many decades, but his stuff does absolutely nothing for me.

So along comes the Cold Mountain film project. Jack was good friends with Rene Zellweger, one of the stars and investors in the film. There was a rumor that they were having an affair, but I don't know the truth and timing of that or if it was a factor, but hey, it is Hollywood after all. Anyhow, Jack wound up as the musical headliner and an actor in the film, even though he had no previous old-time music credits to his name. He even appeared on an A&E special to promote the movie, where he looked stoned out of his gourd while absolutely butchering "Wayfaring Stranger."

To those who like him, Jack White is a talented cross-over artist. To those who don't, myself included, he is a no-talent interloper who is cheapening old-time music.

[jbrwky]

Well OK then. I thought it was just me.

[mad dawg]

I have never been a fan of the White Stripes, and his vocals on their recordings defintely put me off as well. But, I thought his work in Cold Mountain was very soulful, and it worked very well within the context of his role as a homegrown, untrained, unrefined, travelling amateur musician/deserter. I find it interesting that I like him better as a "musical interloper", than for what he is better known. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Steve L]

Jack White's latest "project" is working with country singer Loretta Lynne in one of the most incomprehensible musical pairings since Bing Crosby and David Bowie sang "The Little Drummer Boy" on a Christmas special years ago. I first heard White Stripes on a late-night tv show and thought they were part of a comedy skit on garage bands. I don't get him either.

[John Flynn]

I first heard White Stripes on a late-night tv show and thought they were part of a comedy skit on garage bands.
LOL, Steve! I did the same thing. I first saw them on Letterman and I thought it was one of David's gags. Especially because you had this very animated guitarist just banging away and singing, while the lady drummer just sat there looking vacant and bored, just hitting the snare and one cymbal on every downbeat. No rolls, no tom-tom action. When I realized they were for real I thought, "Gee, I could be a rock drummer, too, even though I have never seriously touched a kit!

[chirorehab]

I saw the White Stripes perform on the Grammy's last year... They blew everyone away.... I kid you not...His guitar playing was very impressive...

He is dating Renee Zellwegger...Or at least he was the last time I read People magazine!!

Eric

[ira]

sorry, shows you that differences are what makes the world go round. thought i don't own their music, i never turn them off the radio or tv when i see white stripes- for their genre i think that they are really powerful. i haven't seen cold mountain, but what is wrong with someone wanting to be involved in different genres and projects musically. instead of looking at him as an interloper, look at him as a young pop guy who has interest in roots music.

not a flame, just my opinion, so answer but don't attack. thanks,

[fangsdaddy]

jflynnstl writes: "Jack White is a kind of new-age rock and roller."
new age? you'll hardly find the 'stripes on the roster of windam hill. they're the polar opposite of that.

ira. i'm w/you. good musicians, which i put jack white in that catagory, keep exploring rather than get stuck in one thing. on a similar front, there's a lot of people around here bent out of shape about thile, but i'm willing to follow his vision & see where it leads.

this "no talent interloper" thing is similar to the charges leveled at gillian welch. (" she's from southern california. she wasn't born in the right part of the country to play this music."), which leads us to the old "can-white-men-play-the-blues?" argument.

sam

[mingusb1]

Is Jack White in that "Folk Rap" outfit "Tenacious D"?

That stuff is funny, if too vulgar.

Z

[jbrwky]

Well I admire his effort to try different things, Rene Z. included. He is an acquired taste I guess. I haven't acquired it yet.

[mad dawg]

Is Jack White in that "Folk Rap" outfit "Tenacious D"?
Z - You're thinking of Jack Black; he cracks me up too. (But then again, I think Adam Sandler is funny.)

[smilnJackB]

I don't know the White Stripes, but I enjoyed the old timey music in Cold Mountain very much. #I liked the movie too.
# This Jack White was pretty good in the part. #The singing and songs were not overly professional -and should not have been! # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Jack

[jbrwky]

True. I thought the fiddle playing was worth the trip though.

[Nathan Sanders]

You know, I was impressed with the believability of the old time music in Cold Mountain. I'm no fan of Jack White, but seeing and hearing him perform in the movie kind of added another dimension to his stance as an artist. But I will not be buying the soundtrack or any White Stripes albums. And I'm still confused over the Loretta Lynn deal. I saw Loretta and Jack perform on Letterman and it just bothered me for some reason.

Back to Cold Mountain--- the movie was terrible. I would not recommend it to anyone. It was really kind of stupid.

[Tone Monster]

Jack will be the T Bone of the future. He is young now but exploring.I think we will see interesting thinhs from the retro rocker who digs ol' time music.

Peace,
Rick

[John Flynn]

I don't disagree that Jack White did a credible job on the CM soundtrack. His performance on A&E is another matter, but everyone has a bad night. What I think is unfortunate is that the project deserved better than just "credible" and there were people out there who could have done much better. Just as a for instance, I challenge anyone who thinks that White was the best man for the job to compare the CM soundtrack to "Songs From the Mountain," a CD inspired be the Cold Mountain book, independent of the movie. Some of the tunes are the same. "Songs From the Mountain" absolutely blows the soundtrack away, IMHO, and it is much more true to the traditions of the music represented.

Just going side by side with the tracks of "Wayfaring Stranger," on the two CDs it is obvious that White is not even in the same league as Tim O'Brien as an old-time singer. What was the hang up? Was Tim too busy? Too expensive? Not sleeping with Renee'? Inquiring minds want to know!

[mrbook]

I liked the music in Cold Mountain when I saw the movie, but heard the soundtrack first, and it didn't stand on its own (even with Mike Compton & Stuart Duncan). Loretta Lynn is probably lonely since her husband died - the stuff with Jack White is too dark and depressing, but like Johnny Cash's final work, young people seem to think it's more "real."

[Darren]

Just an interesting side note about Mr. White, Rolling Stone magazine had their 100 Greatest Guitarist issue come out about a year ago and Mr. White appeared ahead of a lot of "top notch" guitarist on their list. He was listed as number 17. Seriously, he was.

I thought it was rather "interesting" placement on their part.

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/_/id/5937559?

[John Flynn]

Darren:

I am stunned by that list. So according to Rolling Stone, Jack White is the 17th "Best Guitarist of All Time." He is better than:
19. Richard Thompson
21. George Harrison
27. Mark Knopfler
36. Steve Cropper
32. John Cipollina
39. Brian May
40. John Fogarty
42. Robert Fripp
45. Frank Zappa
46. Les Paul
49. John McLaughlin
50. Pete Townshend
54. Jorma Kaukonen
70. Eddie Van Halen
74. Johnny Winter
91. Robbie Krieger
96. Angus Young

Steve Vai, Joe Satriani, Andres Segovia, Paul McCartney, John Lennon, Alvin Lee, Leslie West and Roger McGuinn, just to name the few that jump into my head, aren't even on the list, and White is #17. It is a world gone mad!!! Hey, with those rules, maybe I could be the 17th best mandolin player of all time. It would make as much sense.

[Tim]

These "best of all time" lists usually tend to be skewed to over-represent the last few years.

[Nathan Sanders]

It really is hard to read these types of lists today, 100 greatest....best of all time...whatever. I think most of it is done to get publicity for the "next big thing." It is sort of like when you watch some of these programs on CMT, "country" music television, and they have the current hot acts giving their five cents worth on some country legend, whom they have probably never met and maybe listened to one day in their life. And who exactly put this list of the greatest guitarists together? I'm guessing it was some 22-year old punk who probably doesn't even know who Les Paul or Chet Atkins is. Was Doc Watson on the list?

[John Flynn]

Doc Watson was not on it, nor was Clarence White of the Kentucky Colonels or Tony Rice.

[Nathan Sanders]

Jimi Hendrix #1? OH please...he was good but come on. Van Halen should be real close to the top. At least Clapton is up there. But where is Chet Atkins? I guess influence was not a factor in comprising the list. I wonder what the criteria for getting on the list was.

[fangsdaddy]

personally i was outraged that Rolling Stone put Jack ahead of Tony Iommi. But that's me. I still think Rolling stone is clueless, by the way.

[mad dawg]

I would like to know their criteria for great as well, and how Kirk Hammett made #11 and Kurt Cobain #12. Sure they are/were both influential and popular, but great? # And 70 percentile more "great" than David Gilmour?? #And why didn't Glen Campbell make the list???

[Michael H Geimer]

" Sure they are/were both influential and popular, but great? "

I'm not sure the readers (or publishers) of RS understand the distinction.

Trying to find musical insight inside RS is like reading People Magazine for their financial advice.

... or like watching a Hollywood blockbuster hoping to see history acurately portrayed.

That being said ... people keep giving Jack work, so he's got some sort of appeal. (if not to us as listeners)

[plunkett5]

While I hesitate to defend RS, any greatest guitar player list that puts Ry Cooder in the top ten can't be all bad.

[chirorehab]

Anyone who has seen Trey Anastasio play will know that he should be near the top of that list. Not #73...

Eric

[mandofiddle]

Yeah, what chirorehab just said. I was thinking the same thing on my way to work this morning (with a crisp Phish SBD from 97 in the CD player)

[GVD]

Johnny you know I'm a Jack White/White Stripes fan and we've agreed to disagree in the past over their talent or lack thereof but New-age? They're about as new-age as the Sex Pistols. And yeah he isn't in Tim O'Briens league but then who really is? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

That being said I'm not about to suggest he should be on that RS 100 Greatest list, much less number 17. That's got to be one of the all time stupidest list I've ever seen. Yeah so that they got Ry Cooder right but no Doc Watson ,Clarence White or Tony Rice? Puleeze!

GVD

[Michael H Geimer]

" ... we've agreed to disagree in the past over their talent or lack thereof but New-age? "

I kinda liked the original Johnny Depp comparison, though ... that's funny!

[John Flynn]

OK, I probably shouldn't have said "new age" because that is a musical genre of its own and it has nothing to do with Jack White. So I guess we are correcting each other's semantics now. What's next? Spelling? I meant "new age" generically and it was a wrong useage. I should have said "nuveau," or something like that.

[fangsdaddy]

mando johnny
speaking of sematics, by your definition, jack white is a real musician. he has a day job. it's called the white stripes. & he gets paid for it better than most of us.
sam

[peterbc]

Clarence White is on there (#41)

[John Flynn]

jack white is a real musician. he has a day job. it's called the white stripes. & he gets paid for it better than most of us.
So you think being an entertainer is a real day job? And you think the measure of a musician is what he gets paid? Interesting. No wonder our opinions differ.

[fangsdaddy]

no, johnny, i think you misunderstood me. playing guitar in the white stripes just happens to be his "day job". i consider jack white a real musician. i value his ideas & approach to music. the fact that he happens to be paid very well is meaningless. is yo yo ma any less of a great musician because he's paid well? #i only pointed it out because i do envy someone like him who's able to do what they love & get paid very well for that. most musicians i know do not have that situation in their lives.
britney is an entertainer. jack white is a musician who happens to be popular with certain segments of the record buying population. britney can't play. jack white can. to me that's one fundimental difference between an "entertainer" and a "musician".
to #say "real musicians have day jobs" #indicates to me that your viewpoint is that if a musician is making their living off their music, their music in your eyes ceases to be valid. there's an artistic purity thing here that i'm perceiving & truthfully, i don't agree with.
sam

[Nathan Sanders]

It is good to hear someone point out the difference between an entertainer and a musician. I have always been more impressed with entertainers who can actually play, who are actually musicians. Let me give you an example. I recently attended a concert by the Notorious Cherry Bombs at the Ryman auditorium. If you are not familiar with them, the band consists of Vince Gill, Rodney Crowell, Tony Brown, and some of their other old friends and known session musicians. Anyway, it was an awesome concert as they performed the songs of their new CD, plus some Vince Gill songs and some Rodney Crowell songs. They were having fun too. Now, imagine Garth Brooks trying to get his old buddies together to do a similar thing. I know Garth can write songs and play some guitar, but come on. He is just not in the same league musically as Vince. Garth is an an entertainer. Vince is that and more. You do not see Garth attending bluegrass festivals for one thing.

[John Flynn]

Like most of the signature lines on the board here, "Real musicians have day jobs" is only intended as a "bumper sticker" saying, not some assertion of a great undeniable truth. My intention is to celebrate the independence and power of amatuer musicians and to perhaps get a chuckle out of like-minded people. I got the line from a case sticker that was a signature give-away by a music store. It is not intended to insult professional musicians, who I doubt care much about my approval, or the approval of anyone else on any message board.

However, if you want to get philisophical about it, which it seems you do, my view is that real musicians are people whose primary goal is to make music and who care about preserving music in its purer forms, not corrupted by commercialism. Once someone’s primary goal becomes making money by making music or being a celebrity by making music, the best term I would use to describe them is "entertainers," although for some of them, like Jack White, I can think of worse terms also.

This is not unlike the view taken by people who fought for the Olympics to remain purely amateur in the old days, prior to the "dream team" phenomenon. They thought real athletes were people who were just in it for the sport, not for the money, and therefore "had day jobs." And they had a point. Who can deny that athletics has not lost something precious in our culture now that "sports entertainment" is the norm?

Having said all that, I do think that big names who make a living at music can still be "real musicians." The defining factor is their primary goal. If it is the music, they are real musicians and I guess the commercial/ celebrity stuff could be seen as their "day job." I don't choose to put Jack White in that category, but you do. I can live with that.

So, on that basis I’m sticking to my guns: "Real musicians have day jobs." If anyone doesn’t like it, they can sue me! BTW, many centuries ago, lawyers all had to have day jobs, because it was prohibited to accept fees for legal services. I am not sure we are better off now that we have changed that, either.

[Nathan Sanders]

I've always liked the saying "real musicians have day jobs." I've used it many times. Another phrase I've seen is "Talking kills music." I saw that one on a t-shirt, pulled over the back of a folding chair that this guy carried with him at a festival where I was playing. Another favorite is "Tune it or die."

[Moose]

Thank you f5 for the introduction of some humor into this "getting-touchy" thread. PHEW!.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Nathan Sanders]

Thanks Moose! I thought I might try to find some quotes about music and here is what I have found so far:

Play the music, not the instrument. ~Author Unknown

The joy of music should never be interrupted by a commercial. ~Leonard Bernstein

I worry that the person who thought up Muzak may be thinking up something else. ~Lily Tomlin

Opera is where a guy gets stabbed in the back, and instead of dying, he sings. ~Robert Benchley

Without Elvis, none of us could have made it. ~ Buddy Holly

Country music is three chords and the truth. ~ Harlan Howard

I would advise you to keep your overhead down; avoid a major drug habit; play everyday, and take it in front of other people. They need to hear it, and you need them to hear it. ~ James Taylor

[fangsdaddy]

johnny
i apprecite your point of view, but who are you to determine what jack white's true musicial goal was? have you guys been speaking in depth about this matter?. i saw them play in clubs to less than 30 people for 2 years prior to the explosion in their popularity. they were uncorrupted by the mighty dollar. in fact they slept in my friends living room when they played here. they seemed to be playing music because they loved it.
look, the white stripes got lucky. they hit the musical power ball drawing. truthfully, there are plenty of bands in the indie-rock scene who are as good. but they were in the right place at the right time. it's similar to the nirvana explosion of 14 years ago. why did nirvana get huge, while the pixies didn't?
sam

[mandofiddle]

why did nirvana get huge, while the pixies didn't?
That line right there could start a whole new arguement...

[fangsdaddy]

so true.

[John Flynn]

who are you to determine what jack white's true musicial goal was? have you guys been speaking in depth about this matter?
We all have the right to base our opinions on what we choose to base our opinions on. In that we are all equal in any discussion. I have a long history in music, as it seems you do also, and we just disagree. I respect your right to like Jack White. I am not attacking you or anyone else for having that opinion. I just don't share that opinion. Get over it. I will not play the game of having to justify my opinion just because it is contrary to yours. If there is any such thing as free speech, it only works if both our opinions can coexist on an equal footing. Frustrating, ain't it?

[Michael H Geimer]

I think there is a distinction to be made between the amatures and the professionals, and it's not an 'artistic purity' thing, or even a 'love of what you do' thing. (I'm confident that all musicians love making music) There are simply different sets of priorities involved, different perspecitves, different goals.

An amature is someone who practices music only to make it part of their lifestyle. In that sense it is an end in itself. Where a professionally oriented musician (famous or not) is concerned with crafting art for presentation, be it live performace, CD recording, or media broadcast. It is a different (more modern) way of looking at music's role in society. Is music an activity, or a finshed product?

That's the difference between Vince Gill attending festivals, while Garth does not. That's why Jack White taking a role in a Hollywood blockbuster, and acting as a 'producer' for a GOO star runs counter to the 'Real Musicians Have Day Jobs' motto. A "real" Old-Time player might be the alpha-fiddler at your local jam who knows hundreds of tunes, and guides the circle.

IMO ... 'elitism' happens on the commercial side of things (where songs and artists are commodified, #polished for display, put on sale for profit, and organized into Top100 lists) and not so much in the real circles where Jack's performace of Wayfaring Stranger might not be to your liking, but where the jam would surely continue and no one would care of he was dating Renee or not.

Which begs the question, is Jack White even capable of 'cheapening' Old-Time music, being so obviously outside of the real scene? He's a non-issue to me.

[John Flynn]

Benignus:

Good thoughts. Very persuasive. Thanks.

[Nathan Sanders]

Again I say, I'm no Jack White fan, but I find it interesting that a person of his musical style would step into a completely different genre and do an ok job. But, as said previously, he really is a non-issue concerning old time music. How does one cheapen old timey music anyway? You know, Jack's appearance might bring in new listeners to old timey music, kind of like O Brother did or Johnny Cash's American recordings. But as the Mandrell song says, I was country when country wasn't cool.

[Michael H Geimer]

" But as the Mandrell song says, I was country when country wasn't cool. "

Gosh. The Mandrell Show, I forgot all about that monstrosity. If it were still on-air today, Jack White would be this week's Guest Star.

[John Flynn]

But as the Mandrell song says, I was country when country wasn't cool
LOL. The song that this situation reminds me of is Alan Jackson's "Gone Country."

Well the folk scenes's dead, but he's holding out in the village
He's been writing songs, speaking out against wealth and privilege
He says "I don't believe in money, but a man could make him a killin'
'Cause some of that stuff don't sound much different that Dylan
I hear down there it's changed you see
They're not as backward as they used to be"

He's gone country, look at his boots
He's gone country, back to his roots
He's gone country, a new kind of suit
He's gone country, here he comes

I think Alan could add a whole new verse just about Cold Mountain.

[mad dawg]

Sorry Johnny -- I deleted my previous post that you just responded to because I didn't want to come off as trying to "stir the pot". I assume we are referring to him as a star due to his role in the soundtrack, since his film role had relatively little screen time, and his character was lucky to have survived to the end of the movie/book as it was. Perhaps a seasoned veteran of the genre could have been more suitable for this soundtrack, but the same could be said for Ry Cooder and the countless soundtracks he has composed. Ry is constantly investigating and experimenting with different genres, and there are alway people more rooted in the genres he works with than he. Mind you, I am not comparing Ry's and Jack's skils as musicians, but Jack is also experimenting with a new genre here, and he has my respect for that. More power to him for using his fame to stretch his boundaries, and perhaps those of his fans as well.

[John Flynn]

mad dawg:

I appreciate your reply and I don't mean to stir the pot either. As I started to say, old-time is very inclusive of anyone who just wants to just play. However, like other non-commerical genres, it is "anti-star." The real "stars" of old-time are very humble and don't put themselves out front. For a crossover artist to purport to be an old time headliner and then to deliver anything less than a great performance is offensive. If Jack White wants to show up at a jam and just jam, he would be very welcome, I am sure. If Jack White wants to put out an old-time CD and it's really, really good, more power to him. But he came right out of the box as "the man" on the soundtrack for the movie of a book that is near and dear to old-time musicians and he did not do a great job at it. You could call it "Vanilla Ice Syndrome." Wrong guy, wrong place and short of the mark.

[mad dawg]

At least he doesn't have Vanilla Ice's hair! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[fangsdaddy]

an genre that seems to be developing is the new generation of string bands bands playing old time music infused/informed w/the striped down attitude & energy of punk rock.
re: the old crow medicine show, reeltime travelers, tera nevins & friends, the mammals, crooked jades & the haskensaw boys.

[mad dawg]

You can add the Emma Gibbs Band (http://emmagibbsband.dmusic.com/) to that list. (Funny thing is, there is neither an Emma nor a Gibbs in the band. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif )

[fangsdaddy]

http://www.brokenbricks.com/

[mad dawg]

The Gourds (http://www.thegourds.com/)

Way cool: original tunes and covers (including David Bowie and Snoop Dog) by a band fronted by a mandolin and accordian.

[generankin]

Having played (or tried to play) for quite a few decades the sort of Delta stuff that Jack White does with ease, lemme say that he really does grasp the material and the technique. #I confess I do not like all his work, but there's a strength there that's largely absent in modern rock.

I was compelled to watch Cold Mountain, and I confess I hadn't a clue that White was in it.

As to Rolling Stone's List of Greats, they have never had a clue. #Hell, they once had Tina Weymouth as bassist of the year, one of the top 100 of all time. #Gimme a break. #
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[generankin]

I've always liked the saying "real musicians have day jobs." I've used it many times. Another phrase I've seen is "Talking kills music." I saw that one on a t-shirt, pulled over the back of a folding chair that this guy carried with him at a festival where I was playing. Another favorite is "Tune it or die."
"Tune it or die." #I have to have that T-shirt! #Anyone have a notion where to find one?

[Nathan Sanders]

Elderly Instruments has a t-shirt that says "Tune It Or Die."

[Nathan Sanders]

Here is a picture from Elderly's web site of the Tune It Or Die shirt.

[mmukav]

I think one slant you can take on Jack White's role in Cold Mountain and the music he performed hasn't been mentioned here.

He got a chance to do something for a movie, did some other work in the country realm and was smart to give it a try.

Whether or not he was a success seems to be at issue here. If you listen to the White Stripes music you soon get the idea of what he's all about. He seems like a guy who just puts 'it out there' and you can either take it or leave it.

His music in Cold Mountain was similar, in my view, and if you're a fan you can appreciate it. If you're not, then there are lots of things you can say about his performance that aren't flattering.

I guess my point is that he played some fun old-time music, probably had a great time doin' it, made some money, and now he's off to his next project. Is he one of the great guitarists of our time. Hmmm....I don't know about that. One of the great mandolinists? Duh! A creative induvidual? Yes. Talented? Has to be or he wouldn't have gotten as far as he has. (not that good looking). Quirky, thus interesting? Yes. The best choice for Cold Mountain. No, but when are all roles in all movies picked perfectly.

I say more power to him. His name at least brought some more attention to that genre of music, and I don't think that's all bad. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif