Jack White

[JeffD]

Journeybear, a friend of mine gave me this line.

He tells me: "Jeff, I would like to agree with you, but then we would both be wrong."

[journeybear]

:))

[mandowilli]

Overheard at an Old Time music jam. " You know, Old Time music is a lot better than it sounds."

[JeffD]

Overheard at an Old Time music jam. " You know, Old Time music is a lot better than it sounds."

I have heard that. :)

I think that originally came from a Mark Twain quote about Opera.

[Jim MacDaniel]

Now that the question of "Jack White, OT or not OT?" has been answered (and the answer is a clear "Yes and No"), what are your thoughts on the age old question "Chris Thile, BG or not BG?" ;)

[catmandu2]

Now that the question of "Jack White, OT or not OT?" has been answered (and the answer is a clear "Yes and No"), what are your thoughts on the age old question "Chris Thile, BG or not BG?" ;)

Oooh...

[catmandu2]

If anyone has an interest in returning to a discussion of music...

In the pursuit of a common language and defining operational terms necessary for critical discourse, it might be useful to use the tree and branch analogy when conceptualizing music categorically. For example, in studying jazz there is a general theoretical consensus of what elements comprise early jazz--it has its origins (origins being another study entirely) and branches into many diverse stylistic forms. Much diverse contemporary music that we wouldn't necessarily think of as "jazz" based upon its origins and traditional forms is considered under the "jazz" rubrick--often because it is one of our more flexible models--as it helps us to understand the music. In a critical analysis of musical form, we use models, elements, history, theory to understand what is expressed. We may like to think of "old-time" music as somehow separate and too remote from these "academic" concerns to be apprehendable or relevant to such approaches, but that's another conversation.

Like "jazz," I see "old-time/roots" as the taproot, with many subdivided derivations: trad, mountain, urban, contradance, squaredance, cajun, jugband, blues, bluegrass, country, rock, and of course countless more regional and stylistic expressions. To try to draw definitive delineation between these is, for my money, not particularly useful--unless, of course, one wishes to fuel an argument, for which such compartmentalizing concerning music is particularly efficient (ironic that, on a forum devised to entertain discussion of musical styles, some would call such discourse a NON-discussion, and even call for abolition of such discussion--this, in the words of DrEugeneStrickland, truly is "sad and disturbing," but not surprising). As I stated some, oh, five pages back--I don't generally see utility in pursuing cold classifications and definitions in musical expression--especially since so much of it is related. But it is possible to do so.

As newgrass emanated from bluegrass, it assimilated elements from other forms--jazz, for example. Similarly, "old-time/roots" and its subdivisions are assimilating elements from diverse forms--rock, for example.

I think some of the challenge in finding agreement, consensus--or as Jamie put it, a clear line of victory--in this discussion ensues from the disparate perspective, or metaperspective, we all have here. Therefore, breaking it down into common elements or using a standard heuristc of critical approaches is useful.

Or, to put it another way: Roscoe Holcomb didn't think the folks up thar in the city (Seeger, Cohen and those guys) were playing "real" old time music either. (lol ;))

[JEStanek]

To introduce another Roots Music element into the Jack White stew here, he produced Wanda Jackson's new album. As an distinctive female rockabilly voice and a pioneer for female performers in a genre not known for female leads this lends more credence, to me at least, that Jack White has a genuine interest in roots music. I think he is faithfully following his muse. If he was in this for the money, producing records for Loretta Lynn and Wanda Jackson are mistakes, he should make another Elephant.

I don't want to debate his performance value but I'm convinced these disparate styles (with many common themes) flow centrally through him.

Jamie

[journeybear]

Furthermore, Wanda Jackson and Jack White are scheduled to appear on Letterman Thursday night. I don't expect there will be a note of old-timey music. But Ms Jackson is a vital old-timer; glad she's still at it.

[JEStanek]

While maybe not in the nit picky Cafe sense, the musical stuff Jack White has shown an interest in fits into the American Roots Music bin. Blues, Old Time, Rockabilly, Country and Western. If it inspires anyone to pick up an instrument and find their own voice, I'm all for it.

Jamie

[journeybear]

Roots? Definitely. Old-timey? Gentlemen, stretch your definitions! :whistling:

Seriously, I hope he can revitalize Wanda's career at least as much as he did Loretta's, however briefly. Both were seminal figures in their respective fields, largely marginalized by current country culture.

[catmandu2]

Roots? Definitely. We're getting there..



If it inspires anyone to pick up an instrument and find their own voice, I'm all for it.

Indeed. No doubt he has inspired many more than any of us.

[JEStanek]

I guess by Roots music I'm using the term as used on the NPR show American Routes (http://americanroutes.publicradio.org/about/). Or as seen in the good Documentary (with no Jack White content) American Roots Music (http://www.amazon.com/American-Roots-Music-DVD/dp/B00005Q65K/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1295278584&sr=8-2). Most people think anything other than top 40 Pop/Hip Hop/Country Pop is just old peoples music. Certainly the folks with deeper knowledge of the different styles may protest, but everyone starts somewhere.

Jamie

[DrEugeneStrickland]

I have silently continued to read the back and fourth concerning this Rock musician Jack White.
I have spent the last several weeks actually studying and listening to his music trying to comprehend why someone would make any sonic connection between his music and; Country Blues,Electric Blues,Early Country,Bluegrass,Old Time or Cajun... I have tried to stretch my definitions as far as I possibly can to try to include him and his music along side,Doc Boggs,Roscoe Holcombe,Doc Roberts,Scotdale Stringband,Yank Rachel,Bill Monroe,Dennis McGee and can not for the life of me find similarity or influence of any of these artists from a aural perspective.
I must then assume that this is a typical discourse that goes along with an insecurity some musicians feel when in the company of those who have rejected Rock and Pop music in favor of the folk styles mentioned above.
To grasp any of the wonderful American styles ultimately doesn't require that one have an all encompassing view of the bigger picture of current or past commercial musics made and marketed for mass consumption.
I myself spend hours learning from old recordings of the masters of American Folk music.
As I focused on White and his music I remembered how refreshing it was years ago to turn away from bombastic and atonal sounds created by groups like Black Sabbath(a group Mr White seems to imitate frequently) and Led Zeppelin in the early 70's and go back to listening to Willie Dixon,Howlin Wolf,Muddy Waters Fred Mcdowell and Son House who did not need extreme volume,trendy clothing and "punk" arrogance to make music that will last forever,it is the extreme gimmickry of his presentation that makes it difficult for me to place him next to the masters of American Folk and Blues... I am sure the same was said for Mick Jagger many years ago.
As the Rolling Stones moved away from playing the Electric Blues heard on early albums they used gimmickry and showmanship to reach a critical mass and influence youth culture,leaving the roots of American music to be discovered by those looking for an alternative to Hype and commercialism.
This all makes me think of the liner notes presented on the Monroe Brothers reissue some years ago which quoted Bob Dylan saying that the story of American music is heard in the Monroe's recordings.
While Dylan himself saw the importance of The Monroe's music,I didn't feel as though I needed his blessing to hear the brilliance in what they were doing myself.
Dropping names of commercial musicians to get someone to hear the validity of Folk music is a tired exercise.
The proof is in the listening and appreciation of these seminal artists on their own terms, not tenuous connections made by ignorant music journalists and those threatened by the concept that American folk music evolved years ago under very different cultural circumstances.
Rock music was a call for rebellion, innovation and entertainment,,Mr. White fits this definition nicely.
Folk music existed to celebrate daily joys and struggles in average peoples lives and needed no audience to develop... a nuanced and complex ideal,he is not suited to.

[JeffD]

Rock music was a call for rebellion, innovation and entertainment,,Mr. White fits this definition nicely.
Folk music existed to celebrate daily joys and struggles in average peoples lives and needed no audience to develop... a nuanced and complex ideal,he is not suited to.

Well thought out and well written. (And not just because I agree. :) Of course.) Seriously though, the whole post was a joy to think through. This kind of post and this kind of thoroughgoing thinking makes extending this thread worth it.

The point of the thread isn't wnning, its the back and forth. Dr. E, your contributions are like clean water.

[catmandu2]

Actually, there is a "rebellious" aspect of old-time music, too, and of course are the "roots" of rock music. Hence, one of the connections between "arrogant" punk and old-time (a challenging association, but one nonetheless).




I have tried to stretch my definitions as far as I possibly can to try to include him and his music along side,Doc Boggs,Roscoe Holcombe,Doc Roberts,Scotdale Stringband,Yank Rachel,Bill Monroe,Dennis McGee and can not for the life of me find similarity or influence of any of these artists from a aural perspective.

Personally I wouldn't think of trying to include White and his music alongside these. But branching from these--certainly.





...difficult for me to place him next to the masters of American Folk and Blues


It never occurred to me to think of White in this context. If someone is suggesting such, I would like to talk with them.



I must then assume that this is a typical discourse that goes along with an insecurity some musicians feel when in the company of those who have rejected Rock and Pop music in favor of the folk styles mentioned above.


This is an interesting remark--a spurious conclusion perhaps based upon projection of some sort. If I were interested in personalizing the discussion, I might suggest that some feel insecure when in the company of those who enjoy, understand and participate in multiple genres--including trad OT, as well as new manifestations (a thought which has occurred to me much throughout this discussion). Trad is great, of course--I love it. But I don't feel compelled to get defensive about it. :)

[JEStanek]

I wasn't trying to say he's an fabulous performer of Roots Music styles, just that he has a genuine interest in them and is doing some good production work for some performers in them. I like a good bit of his music and the stuff he's produced. As a producer he's no T. Bone Burnett either but, at least his efforts raise awareness that there is more out there than Kidz Bop XXXIV.

Jamie

[catmandu2]

As a producer he's no T. Bone Burnett either...

White is the next generation -- exposed to many more diverse influences, while still retaining "old-time" aesthetic.

[journeybear]

Just so we're clear, my objection was never about Jack White's association with roots music, but the alleged old-timey connection, which I don't hear in his music at all. His being cast in "Cold Mountain" was apparently a result of a friendship with Renee Zellweger (if we can take John Flynn's intel on the subject as accurate, as seen in post #2, more than six years ago), and if so, surely a canny move by the producers to boost publicity. Mr. Flynn's appraisal of Mr. White is rather caustic, so if you are a Jack White fan you may wish to avoid this (and also not bother him about something he said so long ago - I am just mentioning this for the Zellweger reference).

You make some good points, Dr. Gene, but you are also painting with some broad strokes, in your comments about Led Zeppelin and The Rolling Stones. I think they, along with other bands such as Cream, Ten Years After, and ZZ Top, did an excellent job of fusing blues and rock, and for a long time kept one foot in each. Zep and the Stones were also very good at crediting their influences and giving songwriting credit to the bluesmen whose songs they covered. I won't disagree that they could get bombastic - especially Zep - as they were taking what had been done before and moving it forward, but they incorporated acoustic elements into their music as well. For instance, Led Zeppelin's "Bring It On Home" starts and ends with acoustic guitar and harmonica segments. The Rolling Stones' version of Robert Johnson's "Love In Vain" includes some great mandolin work by Ry Cooder (possibly my introduction to recordings of the instrument), as well as acoustic and slide guitars. Obviously, they played other music as well - they were rock bands, after all, not blues bands - and even the blues they played was often served up with more swagger than the original versions (though Muddy Waters and other bluesmen had swagger to spare), but they didn't completely disregard the blues either. Indeed, coming to this as a rocker, it was by listening to these and other records that I learned about the blues and followed these artists' influences to their sources. But yes, as the 70s wore on, in their recordings they travelled far afield from these roots, and I don't blame you a bit for having turned away from them as their careers veered away. However, it is worth mentioning that even later in their recording careers they revisited the blues occasionally (for instance, the piano-and-mandolin driven "Boogie With Stu" from Led Zeppelin), and also their live shows included plenty of blues, even if they weren't recording them so much anymore.

I admit to not listening to Jack White or The White Stripes a whole lot, and am still somewhat mystified as to the high regard his guitar playing commands within the rock community, even after viewing "It Might get Loud" (which informed me much more about him than Jimmy Page or The Edge, BTW), but thanks largely to this thread and the passion some contributors have displayed, I am keeping my mind open.

[mandowilli]

I had never watched this movie or heard its music until I started following this thread. A few years back my teenage daughter excitedly told me about Jack White and the White Stripes so I knew of him and his music.

As a musician myself, when I play any song from the past I feel that I am paying homage to it, while also introducing it to a new audience that may have no knowledge of the artist or genre. I may be doing it through a PA system at a Bistro as opposed to sitting around a bonfire with holes in my shoes by the river in some early 1900's southern town, but the music is still alive inside of me and this is how I share it in the 21st century.

A successful young musician today lives in the 21st century and, in the case of Jack White, was cast as an actor in a work of art of a movie that allowed him to connect his young audience with these great old songs and artists.

He is "suited to" that and in my opinion did it quite well.

[catmandu2]

My take on White's inclusion in "In Might Get Loud" (and the White House thing, et al.) -- but I had very little familiarity with White (one of my first exposures was the clip of the Dead Weather I posted some, oh...pages back) -- is that he is regarded more for his total efforts in the music, rather than for his relative technical accomplishment as a guitarist.

[catmandu2]

As a musician myself, when I play any song from the past I feel that I am paying homage to it, while also introducing it to a new audience that may have no knowledge of the artist or genre. I may be doing it through a PA system at a Bistro as opposed to sitting around a bonfire with holes in my shoes by the river in some early 1900's southern town, but the music is still alive inside of me and this is how I share it in the 21st century.



Form changes--content endures.

[journeybear]

He may also get cited (as a representative guitarist of his times) more often than other (possibly more deserving) guitarists because by now he is so visible. That is, someone who doesn't know a whole lot about music (say, a casting director) may ask someone else who doesn't know a whole lot about music (say, the publicist) who they should get for a role, and his name would come up because he's well-known these days. Or someone writing a not-terribly-in-depth article might mention his name without knowing much about him or his music because he/she has seen the name and is vaguely aware of agenerally foavorable regard among the general public. Stuff like this happens, a lot. ;)

[catmandu2]

He may also get cited (as a representative guitarist of his times) more often than other (possibly more deserving) guitarists because by now he is so visible.

Deleted (after above post was edited).

[JeffD]

That is, someone who doesn't know a whole lot about music (say, a casting director) may ask someone else who doesn't know a whole lot about music (say, the publicist) who they should get for a role, and his name would come up because he's well-known these days. Or someone writing a not-terribly-in-depth article might mention his name without knowing much about him or his music because he/she has seen the name and is vaguely aware of agenerally foavorable regard among the general public. Stuff like this happens, a lot. ;)

I have been surprised at how often this apparently happens, and more importantly, how this gets into the critical literature as fact and influences the opinions of those with even less exposure.

And now with that new Google tool, you can rank the relative cultural importance of phrases and terms at any point in history by how many times they show up, or how often terms show up in tandem. So the slightly more than erroneous citations just multiply through history as factoids,and then legends.

[catmandu2]

The artefacts of pop culture are indeed curious, and often confounding. This is one reason why I find particular value in this discussion (and this forum) and encouraged the participation of DrEugeneStrickland specifically: I find it important to differentiate between styles (for example, between trad OT and, say, nouveau OT...of which there are many examples, btw), largely for the reasons cited above. As I stated previously, there is of course a difference between trad OT and, say, the nouveau OT expression of White. But this does not obviate White's relevance to the genre.

That DrEugeneStrickland would fail to find a linkage or relationship between these, however, does surprise me.

[Ed Goist]

This thread has now officially joined Keith Richards, Cockroaches, and Cher as the only things that will survive the Apocalypse, and go on forever...and ever.

[catmandu2]

I can't speak to what went on six years ago, but I've found it pretty invigorating since about the last month and a half.

You mean White's been a subject of OT since 2004? Wow. ;)

[mandolirius]

"In the pursuit of a common language and defining operational terms necessary for critical discourse, it might be useful to use the tree and branch analogy when conceptualizing music categorically."

:))

[catmandu2]

I am keeping my mind open.

That, IME, is a valuable perspective.

One thing I'll add that might help to mollify the fears of the OT police: When I play trad music with my old cronies (I'm a card-carrying member of the Montana OT fiddlers, play in a trad Scandinavian duo/trio with a hardanger fiddler, play several instruments in contradance groups, and some Cajun music, to say nothing of my banjo forays...), I don't play with much rock-inflection -- preserving the tradition in these contexts is safe with me. ;)

However, in my bluegrass group we take a much more diverse approach and play tunes by Stevie Wonder, the Turtles, the Kinks, Bee-als... Ah well, that's BG for ya.

[JeffD]

I think some of the challenge in finding agreement, consensus--or as Jamie put it, a clear line of victory--in this discussion ensues from the disparate perspective, or metaperspective, we all have here. Therefore, breaking it down into common elements or using a standard heuristc of critical approaches is useful.



I q

[JeffD]

I think some of the challenge in finding agreement, consensus--or as Jamie put it, a clear line of victory--in this discussion ensues from the disparate perspective, or metaperspective, we all have here. Therefore, breaking it down into common elements or using a standard heuristc of critical approaches is useful.


I agree entirely. However, I do not seek the goal of finding agreement, consensus, or victory. Because:

An agreement from such disparate points of view would mean one side had let go of the distinctions.
The distinctions are important, and a consensus would mean that the distinctions themselves have been blurred
Victory would end the conversation, not because anyone was convinced, but because one side gave up.

I think a much better solution is to agree to disagree.


White is the next generation -- exposed to many more diverse influences, while still retaining "old-time" aesthetic.

This would be a tragedy. Not that I am against OT being exposed to many more and diverse influences, there is a lot of room for that. And I look forward to it. I just hope White is not the direction of the evolution. It seems to me that, among other things, what is valuable about the old time aesthetic is its contrast with White et al. and that particular slice of the popular culture. It seems to me that what ever does evolve in that direction will have lost its old time aesthetic. It may be great music, that is a judgement call I am not prepared to argue, but it will nolonger be OT in any meaningful way.

Some of Jamies comments make me question this last comment a bit. But I am not ready to amend it. :)



Trad is great, of course--I love it. But I don't feel compelled to get defensive about it.

I think that points to the desparate perspectives you mention. I think that innovation and envelope pushing and challenging the status quo are great too, but there is a place for reverence and the defense of tradition, even aesthetic tradition, in the face of change.

Change cannot be stopped, and nobody in their right mind would seriously consider it, but that doesn't mean we come down in favor of any old change, defended on the basis of the inevitability of change itself.

Whatever OT may become, I would hope that it would stand distinct from the kind of music White is most known for. Of course if White were to put away his red umbrella, I would not be opposed to him becoming OT. :)

[JEStanek]

My thing with Jack White is similar to my thing with Oh Brother Where Art Thou. a very popular movie opens a genre up to people because of the soundtrack. Lots of kids younger than me, likely bought the soundtrack just b/c Jack White was on it. Maybe some of them went deeper in depth into other things. I, for example, didn't know about shaped note singing (which I find very powerful to listen and sing along with) until that soundtrack. That soundtrack opened the Songs of The Mountain CD to me (which I like better).

This is why I feel JW's involvement is a good thing in these various ventures. Some folks will buy his stuff just because he's associated with it. Some of those folks may delve deeper into American Roots music deeper because of it.

I'll respect the folks who want to keep the traditions tight. I get that. There's a place for it. There's room for all in my opinion.

Jamie

[mandolirius]

As the process of globalization continues, nothing will remain pure. Everything is going to be altered, affected, tainted, compromised, expanded, ruined, improved...whatever your point of view may be. The results, in some cases, will be truly bizarre to certain folks.

[catmandu2]

the Turtles...

I meant "the Animals." Don't why I was thinking turtles...?

[mandolirius]

I meant "the Animals." Don't why I was thinking turtles...?

:))

[catmandu2]

I agree entirely. However, I do not seek the goal of finding agreement, consensus, or victory.

For the record, I was being facetious by using Jamie's words. I merely seek a common language (so that we may communicate about ideas without becoming defensive or condescending), not a commonality of experience, necessarily.

[catmandu2]

the Songs of The Mountain CD...

I came round to that before I became aware of the movie--we don't go to movie theaters, so I always miss seeing movies when they're current. This was one of a handful of Tim/Dirk CDs that I was obsessed with around that time. The fiddle medley that opens that CD is still about my favorite set of tunes to play on fiddle. Learned "Blackest Crow" from that too, and it remains just about my wife's favorite to sing to this day.

One thing that movie C.M. did do for me was to pique my interest for a movie I randomly picked up at the rental store one night--"Songcatcher"--which has some nice OT moments in it; I forget who it is playing fiddle in that, but I thknk there's an out-take of him playing Sail Away Ladies...which I commenced to learn right then and there--still one of my favorites to play.

[allenhopkins]

..."Songcatcher"--which has some nice OT moments in it...

Sheila Kay Adams was one of the music consultants on Songcatcher (also the banjo player in the little band); you'd enjoy getting to know her music and writings, I think.

[catmandu2]

Sheila Kay Adams was one of the music consultants on Songcatcher (also the banjo player in the little band); you'd enjoy getting to know her music and writings, I think.

Thanks Allen--I'll check that out.

[JeffD]

This is why I feel JW's involvement is a good thing in these various ventures. Some folks will buy his stuff just because he's associated with it. Some of those folks may delve deeper into American Roots music deeper because of it.
Jamie

You are correct. And that some might get interested in OT because of White is a good thing. How ever they get here, they get here.

I remember a similar point made on a thread about Paul McCartney, how if Paul gets more folks interested in the mandolin then its a good thing, regardless of what one may have thought of "Dance Tonight".

Similarly, I was really surprized (I guess I live in a box), at how many folks got into bluegrass through the connection between Dave Grisman and Jerry Garcia. I guess I kind of thought you had to get there through local musical participation in OT or BG.

Similar to how the movie "A River Runs Through It" got a generation into fly fishing. I thought you had to catch the bug from your Dad.

[catmandu2]

Similarly, I was really surprized (I guess I live in a box), at how many folks got into bluegrass through the connection between Dave Grisman and Jerry Garcia. I guess I kind of thought you had to get there through local musical participation in OT or BG.

Similar to how the movie "A River Runs Through It" got a generation into fly fishing. I thought you had to catch the bug from your Dad.

In my estimation--Garcia (et al.) has done more to disseminate (popularize) mandolin, bluegrass, old-time, and roots music than probably any other single source. Having lived in college towns since 1985, I've observed a steadily increasing trend in college students who play mandolin. It's rare that any young mandolinist that I meet hasn't an intimate knowledge of Garcia and his colleagues. The jam-band milieu that Garcia helped to establish persists widely and usually has a goodly portion of acoustic music as either a feature or basis.

In Boulder you can't throw a stone without hitting a bluegrass player with a master's degree. Around these parts where fly-fishing is a religion (the story was based on this area and the movie was filmed a few miles from me up the Blackfoot River), you can't throw without hitting a fly-fisherman, and chances are good that they're also a bluegrass aficionado.

[catmandu2]

...to put it another way: Roscoe Holcomb didn't think the folks up thar in the city (Seeger, Cohen and those guys) were playing "real" old time music either. (lol ;))



Or to put it yet another way-

Animals are divided into: (a) belonging to the Emperor, (b) embalmed, (c) tame, (d) sucking pigs, (e) sirens, (f) fabulous, (g) stray dogs, (h) included in the present classification, (i) frenzied, (j) innumerable, (k) drawn with a very fine camelhair brush, (l) et cetera, (m) having just broken the water pitcher, (n) that from a long way off look like flies.

-Chinese encyclopedia

[Talabardio]

T

That DrEugeneStrickland would fail to find a linkage or relationship between these, however, does surprise me.

He seems to not be threatened by the concept of ignoring mainstream music. The Doctor is such a scream, I wish he posted on here a lot more often. I really enjoy his ultra-dry, "no bull####" approach and encyclopedia-like mind. I bet he's a blast at parties. :))

[DrEugeneStrickland]

As many friendships and associations the late Mr. Seeger had with various commercial mainstream Rock and Folk artists during his life he never gave up his commitment to seeking out the "true vines" of traditional American music, never once considering dashing it all to play a loud electric guitar and make big money,play arena's and get loaded.
I am quite happy a Mr.Garcia and Mr. White have come along to entertain us and make us feel that the times we are living in NOW are SO VERY IMPORTANT ... but it took the vision of a Mike Seeger to find the eternal qualities of our country's music which lives on long after trends have come and gone.

[Talabardio]

Wow that was fast.

[JeffD]

I am quite happy a Mr.Garcia and Mr. White have come along to entertain us and make us feel that the times we are living in NOW are SO VERY IMPORTANT ... but it took the vision of a Mike Seeger to find the eternal qualities of our country's music which lives on long after trends have come and gone.

I like that. "Eternal Qualities".

Another person to contrast with White, would be John Paul Jones, of Led Zeppelin fame. He has been very important to Rock of course, and he plays the mandolin. But he has performed and worked with music in the OT style, (most notably Gillian Welch), more than that I am most appreciative of his participating in the slow jam at the Swannanoa Old Time week, jamming with the folks and absorbing the vibe just like everyone else there.

[DrEugeneStrickland]

Indeed JeffD
Mr Jones digs deeper then most Rockers and is a humble and unassuming soul... not to mention a superb mandolin artist at least compared to Mr White...

[JeffD]

is a humble and unassuming soul... ..

He is a really nice guy. It reveals my own cultural prejudices that this took me by surprize.

And yea, he pulls some really good music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLU08nOtUkc)out of that mandolin.

[DrEugeneStrickland]

apparently Mr Jones has been coming along quite nicely on the fiddle in an Old Time Appalachian vein as well ...

[catmandu2]

As many friendships and associations the late Mr. Seeger had with various commercial mainstream Rock and Folk artists during his life he never gave up his commitment to seeking out the "true vines" of traditional American music, never once considering dashing it all to play a loud electric guitar and make big money,play arena's and get loaded.
I am quite happy a Mr.Garcia and Mr. White have come along to entertain us and make us feel that the times we are living in NOW are SO VERY IMPORTANT ... but it took the vision of a Mike Seeger to find the eternal qualities of our country's music which lives on long after trends have come and gone.

Yes, I like Mike Seeger too.



Indeed JeffD
Mr Jones digs deeper then most Rockers and is a humble and unassuming soul... not to mention a superb mandolin artist at least compared to Mr White...

So, you like Jones, and he plays the mandolin.


Anything else going on?

This discussion is becoming entertaining in a way that I'd not anticipated.

[catmandu2]

DrEugeneStrickland:

With all due respect, I was expecting a serious and relevant reply to issues I have raised--as opposed to lengthy posts on rock stars of the past that I enjoyed 35 years ago. I suddenly feel compelled to go back and read some of your writing which, I confess, I only skimmed initially when I realized its content.

The way in which you chastise minimalist forms--punk rock music, for example--signifies that, either you lack a broad understanding of cultural expressions, or disdain some forms so much that it precludes you from critical perspective.

Frankly, I'm astounded that someone holding an advanced degree in ethnomusicology would possess such a limited viewpoint, or express such on a public forum.

I apologize for the rather direct message, and do not intend any disrespect. But this is somewhat perplexing to me. It certainly isn't indicative of the academic rigor that I'm accustomed to.

[DrEugeneStrickland]

Although Mr. Jones played in a legendary Rock Band, the music his band played had absolutely nothing to do with Old Time Appalachian music.
Mr Jones played the mandolin fluidly in some of the Rock material.
Now with nothing to prove to the world,he has delved deeply into the study of Old Time music.
His past accomplishments have no bearing on the music he is playing today.
I for one feel he is worth mentioning in this thread as a mandolin player interested in the study of Old Time Music and not pretending to be a master of the style by associating with those who are.
If he were to release an album of Appalachian music he would certainly not expect it to be the standard of great music in this style simply because he was once a Famous musician in an unrelated style

[DrEugeneStrickland]

I confess my focus is on Pre WW2 Appalachian music, so becoming entangled in discourse concerning Rock music or any other mainstream modern music has me a bit out of my element.
I am looking forward to more discussions about mandolinists from the Golden Era,but alas random and vague philosophical theories abound on this thread, loosely connecting modern musicians with a ludicrously broad definitions of Old Time Music.
It is very difficult to remain hopeful that the conversation might switch over to highlighting say, the achievements of the mandolin pioneer from the 1920's, Doc Roberts? ...

[catmandu2]

Although Mr. Jones played in a legendary Rock Band, the music his band played had absolutely nothing to do with Old Time Appalachian music.
Mr Jones played the mandolin fluidly in some of the Rock material.
Now with nothing to prove to the world,he has delved deeply into the study of Old Time music.
His past accomplishments have no bearing on the music he is playing today.
I for one feel he is worth mentioning in this thread as a mandolin player interested in the study of Old Time Music and not pretending to be a master of the style by associating with those who are.
If he were to release an album of Appalachian music he would certainly not expect it to be the standard of great music in this style simply because he was once a Famous musician in an unrelated style


I confess my focus is on Pre WW2 Appalachian music, so becoming entangled in discourse concerning Rock music or any other mainstream modern music has me a bit out of my element.
I am looking forward to more discussions about mandolinists from the Golden Era,but alas random and vague philosophical theories abound on this thread, loosely connecting modern musicians with a ludicrously broad definitions of Old Time Music.
It is very difficult to remain hopeful that the conversation might switch over to highlighting say, the achievements of the mandolin pioneer from the 1920's, Doc Roberts? ...


I see. Well, thanks anyway.



...loosely connecting modern musicians with a ludicrously broad definitions of Old Time Music.


On the contrary, I am applying principles of critical analysis and theoretical concepts readily obtained from any good basic theory and criticism text.

I have some experience and am familiar with terms in cultural anthropology, social and psychological theory, art history, theory and critique, and music. You may speak freely and using scientifc jargon in these fields, and I will be able to communicate with you.

Music criticism is concerned with analyzing its subject typically using approaches from all of these disciplines, and its principles and methods may be applied to any genre, style or period. Punk music, Jack White, et al. may not be your "thing," but it is a legitimate cultural expression within the grasp of a trained, competent ethnomusicologist. It is not my area of speciality, either, but the principles of music criticism may be applied anywhere (that's one of the things about academia--it's not particularly picky about the phenomena observed--its method is develioping theories that are as "universal" as possible, that can stand the test of being applied here, there, today tomorrow). But the first order of business in any discipline is becoming fluent in its terms, basic theories and practices. From what I know of ethnomusicology from lay study, music criticism and cultural anthropology are key foundations to its methods.

[JeffD]

Now with nothing to prove to the world,he has delved deeply into the study of Old Time music.
His past accomplishments have no bearing on the music he is playing today.
I for one feel he is worth mentioning in this thread as a mandolin player interested in the study of Old Time Music and not pretending to be a master of the style by associating with those who are.


Which, in my opinion, is in contrast to what Jack White is doing.

[JeffD]

With all due respect, I was expecting a serious and relevant reply to issues I have raised--as opposed to lengthy posts on rock stars of the past that I enjoyed 35 years ago. I suddenly feel compelled to go back and read some of your writing which, I confess, I only skimmed initially when I realized its content.
.

Do you not see that the point here? We are noting people whose involvement with the music is in contrast to Jack White's, to point out what White could be doing but is not. The time frame in which JPJ was a rock star is not as relevant as that his behavior seems to indicate that his insterest in OT is sincere, that he knows his expertise in a popular genre of music has only peripherally prepared him for all that OT is, and that he is putting in the time to "get it".


Punk music, Jack White, et al. may not be your "thing," but it is a legitimate cultural expression within the grasp of a trained, competent ethnomusicologist.

The point is not whether these forms of popular music are a legitimate cultural expression, or wether or not they are as deeply rooted in the musical traditions of a people. While a discussion of this might be interesting, it is beside the point.

Not every kind of legitimate cultural expression can be called old time music, and not every kind of cultural expression prepares one for understanding old time music. From a thousand miles away, it would appear that JPJ realizes this, and is taking the time to find out what OT is about, to inform his participation. From a thousand miles away, it would appear that Jack White is not.

[catmandu2]

I have solved the puzzle. DrEugeneStrickland is actually a psuedonym created by... TALABARDIO! ;)


I figured this out about a half hour ago and have been chuckling ever since. There were several clues, of course:

1. - The "Dr's" awkward presentation and ostensible lack of any knowledge remotely pertaining to the field of ethnomusicology
2. - The "member" Talabardio's recent faliure at gaining satisfaction on this thread (the motive)
3. - Of course, that the "Dr." posted today at 4:20 (something I took note of earlier today)
4. - The "Dr's" interests, listed in his profile
5. - That, when challenged to produce something of substance, the "Dr," instead of providing anything that makes any sense, was perusing threads like "Jesse McReynolds Plays the Dead" -- (a dead giveaway, if you'll pardon the pun)


It first dawned on me when I thought it might be JeffD--so enamoured of the "Dr's" posts. Or, journeybear, but he's too busy composing his own screeds to feel the need to go under a psuedonym and perpetrate such a hoax. And of course Larry S. Sherman, who reads this thread but does not post...but his profile says that he's a runner, and runners generally have better sense.


My compliments, Talabardio. (but, you are twisted ;)).


Jamie, can you check this out to see if I'm right? I'm only 90% confident.

[JeffD]

I have solved the puzzle. DrEugeneStrickland is actually a psuedonym created by... TALABARDIO!
.

What possible difference could this make? If someone has an interesting point, or has organized some ideas into powerful point, I could care less.

Its not the "Dr" I am enamored of, and I am in no position to check or discern anyone's credentials in ethnomusicology. Its the content of his posts I am responding to.

As I do yours, not because of any credentials you may or may not have, but soley on the points you are making.

This is too interesting to devolve this way, we need to keep to the point.

[catmandu2]

What possible difference could this make? If someone has an interesting point, or has organized some ideas into powerful point, I could care less.

Its not the "Dr" I am enamored of, and I am in no position to check or discern anyone's credentials in ethnomusicology. Its the content of his posts I am responding to.

As I do yours, not because of any credentials you may or may not have, but soley on the points you are making.

This is too interesting to devolve this way, we need to keep to the point.



But Jeff! Are you serious? This is truly bizarre...

I was quite surprised by this--and I laughed for about ten minutes! Are you not surprised? Or at least humored? It never occured to me that someone would do this!

I guess I'm still naive with this internet thing.

Do you really think it's a good idea to do this kind of thing? This is a very sophisticated form of trolling. And besides, you can see that the "Dr's" hoax didn't last very long, (and he didn't add anything meaningful to the discussion, despite your impressions...sorry).

Nor was I in any position to check on anyone's credentials--it's merely a hunch, and now all of the clues make sense. I merely used reason and intelligence to deduce.

[JeffD]

Do you really think it's a good idea to do this kind of thing. .

Of course not. But I am not clever enough to detect it. And I am wrapped up in the ideas being expressed and not who might do what to win an arguement.

[catmandu2]

Of course not. But I am not clever enough to detect it. And I am wrapped up in the ideas being expressed and not who might do what to win an arguement.

Well, oookaaay. :confused::confused::confused::confused:


Between my bass player at rehearsal tonight, and your equivocating view of this hoax, I'm somewhat bewildered.





Its not the "Dr" I am enamored of, and I am in no position to check or discern anyone's credentials in ethnomusicology. Its the content of his posts I am responding to.



This is one of the more entertaining twists, though: that you and others would be so obsequiesce and even fawning over "a guy" who posts claiming to have a PhD in ethnomusicology. I would suggest being somewhat more critical, generally, even if someone is purporting to have creds. Doesn't it seem a wee bit weird to you that you aligned yourself immediately with a guy with no knowledge about the subject and, demonstrated this time and again? At least journeybear was compelled to disagree with the "Dr" about something, (even if it was totally irrelevant! :))).

Your disagreement with me should not compel you to find solace so easily -- you don't want to be so easily manipulated, I would hope.

[Ed Goist]

I gotta say, I think this recent development is pretty funny and cool as well...

You had almost lost me, and then, Bang! The possibility of a clever ruse! NICE.

BTW, Jack White remains one of my favorite performers. He clearly loves roots music, and appreciates music as an end in itself, not just as a means to fame and fortune...At least that's how I read him, and that, combined with his unique talent as a performer is enough to make me a fan.

Oh, and here is my best possible evidence to support his validity as a legitimate subject in this sub-forum...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTUUutXanLM

Is it strictly Old-Time? No.
Does it show, as a performance, respect for, and appreciation for roots music? You Bet!

Oh, and let me say in advance that this is just an old rock-n-roller's opinion, and it is a poorly informed opinion at that. I know very little about Old-Time music. I just know what I like. So please don't challenge this post expecting a reply. You will not get one.

I do know for sure that one of the primary reasons niche things are niche thing is that those in the community tend to follow arbitrary, draconian rules for preserving the "established norms" and for precluding new and original things from the community...

The "That ain't no part of nothing" philosophy can preserve the purity and legacy of a genre on one hand, but it can stifle it's expansion and growth, and even asphyxiate it, on the other.

[JeffD]

The "That ain't no part of nothing" philosophy can preserve the purity and legacy of a genre on one hand, but it can stifle it's expansion and growth, and even asphyxiate it, on the other.

That is the struggle isn't it. Thats the tight rope. And its hard to get it right.


Here is JPJ with Gillian Welch. Also not exactly OT, but shows some real appreciation, as you say, for roots music. And some killer mandolin of course :)

[catmandu2]

Oh my. You have doomed this thread, no doubt, to at least another page or two...(much to Allen's dismay!)


Well then. Let's return to a discussion of the music, shall we. :)

[JeffD]

that you and others would be so obsequiesce and even fawning over "a guy" who posts claiming to have a PhD in ethnomusicology. I would suggest being somewhat more critical, generally, even if someone is purporting to have creds. Doesn't it seem a wee bit weird to you that you aligned yourself immediately with a guy with no knowledge about the subject and, demonstrated this time and again? At least journeybear was compelled to disagree with the "Dr" about something, (even if it was totally irrelevant! :))).

Your disagreement with me should not compel you to find solace so easily. Just a suggestion.

Huh? What? :confused:

I didn't know or care what the PhD was in. I missed that. I was aligning myself with those parts of his posts that helped me make my points.

I certainly don't need solace.

[JeffD]

Now this is a bit more interesting. Hmmmm.

[catmandu2]

I was aligning myself with those parts of his posts that helped me make my points.


Well, yeah...that's what I mean. Jeff, I'm sorry to tell ya, but there was little substance, relevance, or anything else meaningful in your friend the good doctor's posts. You made far better sense than Talabardio--give yourself credit. I admire your ability to be sincere, don't give that up. You don't need to side with Talabardio's alter ego to make a point. I'm listening to you.


Okay, the music. What the hell is that they're playing up there in that clip? Good god, it's got mandolin too. This should make our "friend" the doctor quite pleased! :)


Larry S. Sherman--I know you're reading this. Whaddya think?

[DrEugeneStrickland]

Ah, is this real proof that Mr White's art encompasses Old Time music?
If this is what the fuss is about,I am shocked.
From his flat unsure rendering of this ancient ballad to his awkward stage manner,it is clear Mr White is entirely out of place in this idiom and he knows it.
He has my respect for trying, but this moment in music history is instantly and laughably forgettable.
This clip of a Rock musician with lots of empty attitude surrounded and stylistically dwarfed by masters of traditional music will in no way inspire me to participate further in a discussion that expands itself to include Mr. White's "brand" of Old Time Music as a legitimate "branch" or "sub category".
It is possible that Mr. White's Rock music presents a more ragged or raw("Old Time"...?) sensibility then is available in the marketplace these days...
However, this doesn't translate to anything that would be defined by actual lovers and players of Old Time Appalachian music as such,I am quite certain.
I suppose I am branded a "fraud" it will be much easier for someone who feels it is important to "win" the "argument"...
My purpose in all this is to perhaps shift the very thoughtful and creative discourse about the intersection of popular and traditional music over to the "Rock" thread,a far more appropriate spot.

[Ed Goist]

...snip...
Here is JPJ with Gillian Welch. Also not exactly OT, but shows some real appreciation, as you say, for roots music. And some killer mandolin of course :)
...snipped video...


Jeff, thank you so much for posting this video. I don't know how I've been missing this gem.
I can't stop watching...So good, so good.
Thank You!
-Ed

[Larry S Sherman]

Larry S. Sherman--I know you're reading this. Whaddya think?

Sorry, I will not be trolled.

[JeffD]

From his flat unsure rendering of this ancient ballad to his awkward stage manner,it is clear Mr White is entirely out of place in this idiom and he knows it.
He has my respect for trying, but this moment in music history is instantly and laughably forgettable..

I wasn't thrilled with his performance either. It struck me that he looked a little scared or something. Its hard to tell, because I am not real familiar with his normal stage manner or voice. But were I to judge the performance on its face, it didn't do much for me.

But he was there. Just as he indeed was on a sound stage wih Ricky Skaggs. It doesn't make him an OT musician IMO, and it doesn't expand OT to include his kind of music, IMO, but its a bit more partipaton than I was prepared to grant him.

Its not black in white at the edges. And I go back to Jamie's point that its good for the music because perhaps those of White's fans not familiar with OT will be exposed to it as they follow him around.

[catmandu2]

Sorry, I will not be trolled.

No, no, no. About the music, man! ;)

[catmandu2]

I wasn't thrilled with his performance either. It struck me that he looked a little scared or something.

This is ironic. Jeff's having a discussion with a ghost, who are both together questioning the authenticity of a guy who's playing music. :)

I'm not sure this is what Mr. Foucault had in mind, but, well...okay.


It doesn't expand OT to include his kind of music...

What would you call the style of music performed in the Wayfaring Stranger clip?

[JeffD]

We are all ghosts on line Cat. In all the years I have been here I ave not met but a few folks in person, and those I knew (or knew of) already anyway. We are all ghosts.

I just take everyone for who they say they are on this forum, and assume there is some phase angle between the on line persona and the person in 3D "meat space".

[catmandu2]

...will in no way inspire me to participate further in a discussion that expands itself to include Mr. White's "brand" of Old Time Music.

Does this mean that you're receding back into the ether, "professor" Talabardio?


Well, it has been fun. I'll look for ya in another incarnation. ;)

[DrEugeneStrickland]

I would be happy to give Mr. Whites Old Time Music attempt another chance when and if he does his homework.
I don't get the impression he is headed down that road however.
Now David Grisman is the one folk musician who's music and respect for tradition has made him the premiere "gateway" figure for those who want to dig backwards and discover the deeper roots of American music,in this respect I am glad he has made important contributions to culture through his work with Jerry Garcia.

[catmandu2]

67483

;)

[catmandu2]

We are all ghosts on line Cat. In all the years I have been here I ave not met but a few folks in person, and those I knew (or knew of) already anyway. We are all ghosts.

I just take everyone for who they say they are on this forum, and assume there is some phase angle between the on line persona and the person in 3D "meat space".


This seems a risky policy, Jeff. Although you may not have a preference for buying your "goods" at a bricks and mortar shop, thought is a valuable commodity. It should be your own.

[Talabardio]

I see. Well, thanks anyway.

Punk music, Jack White, et al. may not be your "thing," but it is a legitimate cultural expression within the grasp of a trained, competent ethnomusicologist. It is not my area of speciality, either, but the principles of music criticism may be applied anywhere

Taste and appropriateness would deter most people from discussing Punk music, Jack White, et al. at length in an ongoing 'old time mandolin' forum context. While one may reserve the right to not love the professor's warm hearted style, he is so relentlessly right-on here it makes me LOL.

Professor, I really enjoyed your entry into the weak discussion of breton music a while back. Thank you for injecting a sobering dose of reality into the mass of absurd conjectures! Have you read the book about the great sonneur from the 19th century, Matelin An dall, by Bernard De Paredes? it contains a manuscript of pieces played by Matelin collected by his friend, Colonel Alfred Bourgeois. Only one copy of it survived in a museum in Rennes, and now it has been brought back into mass publication within this book. My wife and I have been learning some of this material. Priceless!

I could go on at truly great length about this music, but I'm afraid that to do so here in the old time forum would be... self-indulgent.

[catmandu2]

Interesting that you guys would feel the need to create an effigy to debate for you.

But this is the stuff of good fiction--very Vonnegut-esque. Or Orwellian. The disturbing part is that, even with the acolytes' knowledge that the effigy knows nothing of the subject, he is championed and annointed as "a leader"--no matter how wayward.

This motif is one of the more popular themes in literature.

Quite off-topic, but instructive in a more significant sense.

Back on-topic, it's exemplative of how threatened some folks are with anything new, challenging, or innovative. I really didn't need six pages to demonstrate this...but it's been fun, anyway..

[Talabardio]

<Inflammatory post removed by Moderator>

[Ed Goist]

We are all ghosts on line Cat...We are all ghosts...



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBaEcMmMLTQ

[catmandu2]

Cool, Ed. This reminds me of the article you provided the link to (pages 7-8...anyone remember that?--there was little if any discussion emanating from it). I'm beginning to think you're right Jeff: substantia noumo nada


Of course, a better word would have been "dummy"--but I was trying to avoid provocative language, the naysayers being so volatile...

[journeybear]

I know they say, don't feed the troll, but this has gone on much too long. From the guidelines:

Avoid flaming or trolling – posts intended to create discord, antagonize others or create general mayhem. Be polite and courteous at all times. We expect spirited discussions and widely varying opinions that some may even find offensive, but exercise caution.

This unfounded assertion that DrEugeneStrickland and Talabardio are the same person is ridiculous, dismaying, and offensive. If this were the case, they/he/she would have been shut down long ago. Scott and the moderators have, I believe, the means to determine whether anyone is doing this and will not stand for it. That neither of them had been shut down should prove this is not the case. Alleging this behavior without providing proof, in a public forum, is extremely rude. If you have proof, you should report this activity to admins, off-list. This kind of shaming does a disservice to all reading this thread, and ultimately brings shame on yourself.

The personal sniping, baiting, and derision you have indulged in is also unseemly behavior for this communication medium, and furthermore, just generally unkind. It is to these posters' credit that they have not taken your bait nor stooped to your level. I doubt I would have the same patience if it were me who had become the object of such nonsensical attacks.

It is interesting that after over 300 posts, no one has provided us with any audio or video examples of Jack White playing something truly resembling old-timey music. I can't say this represents definitive proof that nothing of that sort exists, but a preponderance of lack of evidence implies that is likely the case. One version of "Wayfaring Pilgrim" does not make him an old-timey musician. Anyone can do any song in a set, but that will not make him or her a valid exponent of that genre. Nor does stretching the definition of a genre to suit one's assertion.

Now I feel like I am feeding the troll again. Well, go ahead, nitpick my post, take words out of context and spin them to suit your opinion. Keep in mind, though, that quoting a person's words against him to disprove his point or allege hypocrisy do not prove your point. Unless, of course, you ascribe to the Pee Wee Herman defense strategy: "I know you are, but what am I? I know you are, but what am I?"

Finally, I noticed this morning this thread of interest, conveniently linked right at the bottom of the page all this time: Jack-White's-new-Old-Time-tribute-cd (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?11209-Jack-White's-new-Old-Time-tribute-cd)

[catmandu2]

My, my, wasn't it you schooling me on humor on the "doofus" thread? Where is the "outraged indignation" smiley? ;)

No proof, just a hunch. But now I'm 91% sure, as I have ruled you out more conclusively.

[Talabardio]

I know they say, don't feed the troll, but this has gone on much too long. From the guidelines:



Journeybear, aren't you really... me? He really is amusing... melting down on the other members for agreeing with the Dr. ...simply awesome!

[catmandu2]

<Inflammatory post removed by Moderator>

[allenhopkins]

...You have doomed this thread, no doubt, to at least another page or two...(much to Allen's dismay!...

Not mine. Been outta here for awhile. Too much interpersonal sniper fire, not enough discussion of old-time music. Some interesting videos posted, though.

Anticipating a lockdown in the foreseeable future. In R Hunter's immortal woids, "What a long strange trip it's been."

[catmandu2]

In R Hunter's immortal woids, "What a long strange trip it's been."

Indeed.

BTW, I checked Sheila Kay Adams' website, which didn't seem to be a particularly good source for her music and writings. Can you refer me to another source that might?

[allenhopkins]

...I checked Sheila Kay Adams' website, which didn't seem to be a particularly good source for her music and writings. Can you refer me to another source that might?...

Some MP3's of music and stories on her Myspace page. (http://www.myspace.com/sheilakayadams)

I met Sheila Kay perhaps ten years ago at Pinewoods Camp. She is one of the few remaining people who has actually accumulated a repertoire of traditional songs by interpersonal contact with older generation singers/musicians, not through working with collectors, recordings or professional performers. As a result, she has some fascinating variants and oddities, as well as a huge number of hilarious anecdotes about the people from whom she learned her music -- great-aunts, isolated ballad singers and banjo pickers, etc.

I haven't read her novels, but she surely has the ability to tell a good story. She's worked quite a bit with Bobby McMillan, I believe, who's another North Carolina traditional musician, and an expert on some of the famous "murder ballad" criminals like Thomas "Tom Dooley" Dula and Frankie Silver.

Now, just to let myself get sucked back down into the general discussion, one last time: people like Sheila Kay Adams and Bobby McMillan will live out their lives loving, preserving, performing, and spreading the traditional music they grew up hearing, and learned to play and understand themselves. Their participation in the Songcatcher movie went totally unremarked by the world in general. Songcatcher's somewhat confused and diffuse focus -- environmentalism, lesbianism, the threat to traditional mountain culture posed by efforts to record, collect, and present it to the "outside world" -- made its musical content somewhat beside the point, accurate and emotionally compelling though it was. The little scene where the coal company's representative, one of the "villains" of the script, breaks into Oh Death, was, IMHO, deeply emotionally affecting. But let a rock star, whether Jack White, John Paul Jones, Robert Plant, Elvis Costello or whoever, show an interest in the same style of music, it's "news." I'd be the last one -- well, maybe next to last -- to disrespect anyone who developed a love for this style of music, or tried to perform or popularize it, no matter how ham-handed or "unauthentic" that person's "take" on old-time music was. But neither would I attach undue significance to it, however I might measure "undue" to be.

Some earlier discussion of Mike Seeger, who was -- still is -- one of my idols; seeing him in a Cambridge coffeehouse in 1963 or so, probably determined what emphasis my next 45+ years of music would take. He was, by all accounts and by my limited interaction with him, a difficult, prickly individual sometimes, not overly tolerant of disagreements or contradictions. What led me to admire him, was his commitment to the music he loved, as a performer, collector, producer, preserver, spokesperson, and teacher. He never was a star, never famous outside of a limited circle of people who appreciated the music he found and played and kept alive when others lost interest. He knew that his musical niche was a narrow one, and that he'd never reach "mass appeal" as long as he stayed in it. He didn't seem to care. Maybe he did; maybe he regretted taking that path. But I'm deeply glad that he took it.

I'm sure that White -- and Springsteen, and Plant, and Mellencamp, and many others -- have heard and appreciated "roots" music, whatever the hell that is, and may well incorporate some if it into their future recordings and performances. Good for them. I hope that some who hear them, may be impelled to listen to the people to whom these performers have listened, and learn to appreciate Sheila Kay Adams and Mike Seeger -- or even more, Dock Boggs, Clarence Ashley, Almeda Riddle, Nimrod Workman, Hobart Smith, Etta Baker, and all the other wonderful traditional musicians whose music is still accessible.

[catmandu2]

Thanks Allen.

No argument from me. ;)

Yes, the "Songcatcher" movie was a bit strange. But the music is great--and had those poignant moments. Some movies are like that...I suppose it's so with all things--it pays to be discerning.

My own journey started with Zepplin 35 years ago, then bluegrass...wound through Bert Jansch...and eventually back to the "old" stuff, with a whole helluva lot of stops in between -- banjo (and jazz, but that's another story) being the main catalyst. The more one educates one's self about music, the further back (and into other cultures) one tends to go, of course.

It's all music--it all has some value...but enough with that.

I've heard that about M. Seeger. I've learned quite a bit of music from that feller.

[Talabardio]

<Inflammatory post removed by Moderator>

[Ted Eschliman]

Regretfully, we have a couple individuals that insist on contaminating this thread with their public bickering.