F4(-ish) Plans?

[wtaylor]

Am wondering if anyone can direct me to plans for F4(-ish) mandos? [oval soundhole, preferably 2-point]
I have Robert Steineger's F3 plansheet (from www.luth.org), and have found the Simonoff plans & kit.

I do like the steeper neck pitch, longer and narrower neck and elevated fretboard extension of the F5, and wonder if there are plans involving an oval soundhole that incorporate these?

Is it just too wild to follow F5 plans, cut an oval soundhole and x-brace? Do I need to modify plate thicknesses about the soundhole? (I have the Stew-Mac A5 plans, which involve an oval soundhole mod for that model - but I want a scroll)

Thanks -
Will

[Dave Cohen]

Will, you can carry out and get away with all of the mods which you mentioned. Thre are several luthiers doing just that. There are a few problems which you should be aware of, though. The steeper neck pitch (approx. 4.6 degrees on F models, etc. vs 3 degrees on old oval hole A models) will necessitate either a taller bridge or a higher top plate arch than what you see in the F3 plans. So that mod would entail some complicated redesign. The elevated fingeboard certainly can be done, and should be easier to execute than the tradional oval hole fingerboard/body join. Apparently, the longer (i.e., 15 fret) neck works OK w/ oval hole mandolins, though I'm not crazy about it. The problem I have with it is that it inevitably puts the oval soundhole closer to the bridge, which makes for a more difficult structural problem. Again, some people get by with it, so I won't give you any absolutes.

[Rob Grant]

Haven't had any hassles with "fiddling" standard mandolin plans to suit my own ideas. I did come across a locally built f-4 mandolin that had a severe problem. Problem with this beast was that a previous owner had decided to shave the twin tone bars down in the areas he could easily reach throught the hole. He shaved them down to nothing and the whole top was literally folding at the oval hole.

[wtaylor]

Here's the kind of thing I had in mind - (sorry about the brutal surgery to this gorgeous old instrument ...)

Dave, I see your point re the bridge position - the F4's have the bridge down about another 1-3/32" as the neck joins at fret 12, with the same scale length - which permits a less cramped position for the soundhole, and places the bridge nearer the center of the active soundboard than this.

[Chris Baird]

So, Bill did play an oval hole! Nice Surgery.

[wtaylor]

Yeah, all those pics of him actually had the f-holes photoshopped in ... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

In case this ever is interesting to anyone else, I've been looking at the F4 compared to the F5 re layout of soundhole & bridge position - pulled these pics from the discussions on this board & here's a genuine F4 compared to a theoretical F5 conversion model.

[Rob Grant]

Had the bridge location problem with an f-4 I'm almost finished with (too close to the sound hole). Decided to
increase the string length to 14.25" (slotted the fretboard to suit). Should string this beast up by the end of the week after I make a tailpiece and bridge. Hopefully I've made a good decision (?). If not, it will be a learning experience which can be corrected.

[wtaylor]

Rob,
can you tell me about your design? Did you join the neck at fret 15 & so run into this?

[Jim Garber]

Isn't this what makers like Doug Woodley do?
http://www.12fret.com/retail/woodleyF2.jpg

Jim

[wtaylor]

Ah - looks like he compromised - joined at the 14th fret!(traditional F4 at 12th, F5 at 15th) - which for the same scale length, moves the bridge down about 3/4 inch from the position demanded by a 15th-fret join, further from the soundhole & nearer the center of the active soundboard.

I notice the Breedloves also use a 14th-fret join.

that is one gorgeous hunk of mandolin.

I was thinking of doing mine in blue - like this one:

[Gavin Baird]

Hey Will,
That Mando looks rather familiar...G

[wtaylor]

That's your's huh Gavin?
Damn, it's beautiful.

[AspiringLuthier]

There are some nice F4 plans in the library at the Musical Instrument Maker's Forum (www.mimf.com)

[Jim Garber]

There are some nice F4 plans in the library at the Musical Instrument Maker's Forum (www.mimf.com)
Give me a clue. I couldn't find those plans on the site.

Jim

[wtaylor]

I don't find these on this site either -
I do know that on the site of the Guild of American Lutheriers (http://www.luth.org/), there are two sets of Mando plans:

Plan #15 Modified F-3 Mandolin
Drawn by Robert Steinegger

Plan #26 1923 Lloyd Loar Gibson F-5 Mandolin

- will

[Bill Snyder]

The mimf does indeed have plans for an F-4. It is a downloadable TIFF file.
To find it you must be a registered user (its free) at the mimf (http://mimf.com/index.htm). Register as a user, go to the Library of Archived Discussions, scroll down to Instrument Plans. There you will find the afore mentioned F-4 plan.

[Tom C]

That F4 looks like it's missing something without the rosette around sound hole.
But that one does look darn nice.

[wtaylor]

Sure enuff!
Downloaded it, thanks for the tip.
Also a nice flat-top octave mandolin there, I downloaded for my son, who has huge hands and plays an octave as if it were a standard mando.

[wtaylor]

I've hacked away at my plans a bit more - hacked off the scroll & just left a point at the curve where the scroll would turn, then moved up the lower point inspired by a gorgious Lawrence Smart model someone posted a bit back:
http://www.smithfowler.org/music/mandolin/smart/

Pretty much mod'd from an F5 otherwise, with soundhole size & placement from an F4 & x-bracing.

Am thinking maybe dark blue face (can't get Gavin's, above, out of my mind) & natural maple rims & back, black/white binding & soundhole purfling.

Will be cutting out templates tomorrow.

This is new territory for me -- my woodworking has been confined to canoe building in the past -- but I figure if I really botch it, at least I've got something close to a reasonable paddle ...

oh yeah ... is it a mandolin yet? ;^)

[Rob Grant]

Will wrote:
"Rob,
can you tell me about your design? #Did you join the neck at fret 15 & so run into this?"

Check out the below attached photo of the finished instrument. As you can see it is "joined" at the 12th fret.
I must admit I didn't really know where exactly the neck/fret join line would be until I glued the board down!

This has a 14.25" scale and sounds bloody beaut'
(if I do say myself<g>). The Missus' is playing an Eastern European tune on it at this moment.

Basically I work from "scratch." The neck is a spare three-piece blank I had left over from some A styles I made several years ago. I only made an F-4 "straphanger" because my brother-in-law sent a set of gold-plated tuners as a Christmas present one year. Don't really like the reversed F style tuners or the head style (I'm a "snakehead" man), but what's a lad to do!<G>