Swing vs Gypsy

[montana]

Is there a difference between swing mandolin and gypsy jazz mandolin? If there is how would you approch each one?

[Bruce Clausen]

Gypsy jazz (not really a very politically correct term)= Play like Django Reinhardt and his followers.
Swing= Play like the Count Basie Band.

BC

[Jean-Pierre WOOS]

Hello Montana,
Hello Bruce, nice to read you here.
Gypsy mandolin does'nt really exist.

Dave Apollon (February 23, 1898 - May 1972) was a Russian mandolin player.

Today Dave Apollon is regarded as one of the most innovative and influential mandolinists of the Twentieth Century, whose more notable recordings/performances include Two Guitars, Hora staccato by Grigoraş Dinicu and Zigeunerweisen aka "Gypsy Airs" by Pablo de Sarasate. His styles include Gypsy and various kinds of European Folk Music. He is also regarded as one of the first jazz mandolinist, with such memorable recordings as Who and St. Louis Blues.
.../...
. In 1946 he met and played with Django Reinhardt while the legendary guitarists was on tour with Duke Ellington in New York City.


David Grisman, palyed with Stephan Grappelli aud Jethro Burns was a Django's fan.

But it's not enough to assert they are, really, playing "gypsy jazz mandolin". In fact, thet are all playing standards from the songbooks of the gypsy guitar players, but, mostly, understanding the concept of tension and resolution like americam jazz players but not in a gypsy like manner. (CMaj7 for C6, Am7 for Am6/9, G7 for G7(b9)... and no one Gypsy plays jazz mandolin (only trad music from Carpathian mountains).

"La pompe" is totally different, listen to the way Don Stiernberg plays with Jethro Burns and liken to gypsies... its feather against hammer... but it swing...

[Bruce Clausen]

I agree, names like swing and gypsy jazz refer to styles of music, not styles of mandolin playing. On whatever instrument you play you do what you can to get the sound you have in mind. Dave Apollon and Jethro Burns would be a couple of good models, but so would Django and Charlie Christian (plus Lester Young and hundreds of other great horn players).

J-P, can I translate "la pompe" as "the groove"?

Bruce

[montana]

I Think la pompe is a style of strumming.

[Jean-Pierre WOOS]

Yes, "la pompe" is the particular strumming of gypsies. Loud (2 or 3 guitar players), heavy, "strenuous", a cadenced crunch of the strum... but it works...

[SternART]

I noticed an interesting parallel.......watching a few great Django type guitar players. One interesting technique was a downstroke and then stopping to rest on the string below........and that they played a LOT of downstrokes.......much like that Bill Monroe fella on mandolin.

[montana]

I found a lot of good instruction on youtube. It is for guitar but the strumming techniques will apply to the mando. I started working them out playing along to Band in a Box which has a couple og Gypsy styles. learning to chords to a number of swing standards.

[John McGann]

Gypsy Jazz Mandolin (http://www.djangobooks.com/archives/2004/12/25/gypsy_jazz_mandolin_lessons_by_john_mcgann.html)

[Jean-Pierre WOOS]

These lessons are on my working desk 365 days a year. Thank you John. :)

[John McGann]

These lessons are on my working desk 365 days a year. Thank you John. :)

Oh, you are the guy that bought them! ;)

Just kidding; I hope you find them useful!

[Jean-Pierre WOOS]

"It's not about licks, it's about ideas" ;)

[John McGann]

"It's not about licks, it's about ideas" ;)

Vraiment! It's not the instrument, it's the music, I think. I really enjoy playing mandolin and octave mandolin in the Django idiom, especially the octave mandolin, with it's Selmer-type honk :mandosmiley:

I'm not Manouche or Sinti or Roma, but I am American, so maybe I should just say "Jazz", but then people ask "Louis Armstrong or Ornette Coleman or Art Tatum or Keith Jarrett or Scofield or Holdsworth or Jethro or Bix or Tal or Wes or Bird or...."

...to which I say "AND!" ;)

[montana]

John,

If you remember I also bought the lessons. You mailed them to me because my dialup couldn't download them. I'm working on them and hope to be needing more soon.

[Ryk]

relative to la pompe ....

On all things mandolin ... and most things guitar ... i'll bow to John so we'll see what he has to say.

I'm primarily an acoustic guitar player aspiring to be a guitarist. And i'm primarily interested in providing a solid rhythmic background for whoever's out front. So all forms of old style acoustic jazz accompaniment is important to me.

I'll quote form Michael Horowitz's Gypsy Rhythm Vol I: "One of the distinguishing features of Gypsy Jazz is the infectious accompaniment style known as la pompe. This rhythm, which is French for "the pump", has a bouncy, swinging, foot-tapping feel that hardly anyone can resist. .... It's appeal rests in its clear definition of the beat, driving repetitive patterns, and its ability to express a sort of innocent enthusiasm ....."

It's a phenomenal technique when it's just the accompaniest and soloist. It provides the back beat of the missing snare drum .... and you can provide a moving bass line as well. How this would all translate to the mandolin ...... John?

It is ... or rather can be ... driving .... but if it's strenuous ... you're doing it wrong. When i've got it going ... it's joy full!

Try it ... you'll like it.

Ryk

[Farmjazz]

I attended the Mando Jam (http://www.sandybar.com/MandoJam.html) summer camp last year, (and will be attending again this year), in Orleans, CA. The main focus of the camp is Gypsy style swing, although other styles are represented and performed as well.

The main things I came away with are the guitar rhythm technique and the phrasing of melodies/solos - making them decidedly "Gypsy." Or should I say, "In the Django style."
Real Gypsy music is as varied as can be; from Flamenco to brass bands, (check out the movie "Gypsy Caravan - When the Road Ends").

Anyway, unlike other forms of swing chord comping, such as Western swing or Freddie Green styles, for instance, the "Gypsy" guitar rhythm seems to be a modified Boom-Chuck. The "boom" portion is the weaker stroke, and played on most, or all of the strings. The "chuck" stroke is the stronger one, and also played on most, or all of the strings. There are no upstrokes used, so it can be a challenge to focus on only downstrokes, at first. Very physical.

There was a woman attending the camp who had it down cold, (Lynda Scheben). I studied her rhythm playing quite a bit both watching her, and just closing my eyes and listening. She referred to herself as being the "Rhythm slave" at the camp, and continued playing even with bloodied fingers on a couple of occasions.

As far as single note management, there was quite a bit of emphasis placed on idiomatic use of certain scales and ascending/descending patterns. Far too much to get into here, but basically, to study "Gypsy Swing" soloing/phrasing IS to study Django.

I highly recommend the Klamath River Mando Jam camp. Great people, beautiful setting, great food, inexpensive, and LOTS of playing!

[Ryk]

It would be interesting to have John McGann jump in on this relative to the mandolin. On the guitar ... of all the various styles of playing la pompe there is only one that doesn't use an upstroke. Think brushes on a snare drum ... it's that first softer sound of the snare in a measure that the upstroke of la pompe tries to emulate.

Ryk

[Rob Gerety]

Lord there are so many darn notes and it is so fast.

[John McGann]

It would be interesting to have John McGann jump in on this relative to the mandolin. On the guitar ... of all the various styles of playing la pompe there is only one that doesn't use an upstroke. Think brushes on a snare drum ... it's that first softer sound of the snare in a measure that the upstroke of la pompe tries to emulate.

Ryk

Michael Horowitz has an exhaustive book called "Gypsy Rhythm" that has many concepts applicable to mandolin...

My opinion is "first, do no harm"...don't chop on 2 and 4 like a bluegrass groove; emulate what the rhythm guitars do and try to lock into that. I use a lot of 3 string voicings and don't usually play a lot on the 1st string when playing rhythm- i want to be supportive and not attract biting insects ;)

[Pete Hicks]

I have noticed that gypsy jazz guitar generally uses easier chord inversions than classic jazz. My gypsy jazz friends tell me that is because much gypsy jazz is played very fast. On mandolin, I just use three note chords as John MgGann mentioned.

[montana]

I got John's Gypsy lesson on chords which has a lot of 3 note chors in it. It really helped me out because I never really thought about chords acting as two different types. Example: C6/Am7 G7/Bdim it sure keeps you from jumping all over the place and sounds good.

[Pete Hicks]

Yeah, Montana. Another example is the Am/FMaj7.

[montana]

Is there any intruction materials out there that really gets into 3 note chords?

[Joel Glassman]

The Jethro Burns books

[SincereCorgi]

Is there any intruction materials out there that really gets into 3 note chords?

Dix Bruce's gypsy mandolin books are great for those- keep in mind that these three note chords aren't simple triads, but three 'good' notes selected from more extended chords.

[M.Marmot]

The Jethro Burns books

Yuppers, that they do :)