What about the ground?

[Stephen Perry]

I read this stuff about lacquer and varnish and so on. Now lacquer I understand to be sprayed on nitrocelluose. Which seems somewhat constrictive in the samples I've done. A bit stiff. And varnish can be almost anything. Spirit, oil, etc. I use a moderately soft oil varnish on my production violin, and a very soft, very thin, extremely flexible, and quite lovely varnish on my benchmade instruments.

But in the violin world we seem to spend much time chatting about grounds. And much opinion favors them being as important as or more important than the varnish. How come mandolin guys don't argue about grounds? There's apparently much fun to be had in arguing about varnish. I would think the grounds would be more fun.

I'll start. I use vernice bianca, a mixture of egg albumin, gum arabic, honey, sugar, and water. Tightens up as it dehydrates. Makes the sound of the box change.

We generally consider that varnish or any finish that soaks into the wood is bad.

This should be fun.

Steve

[Chris Baird]

I don't know of anyone who uses a ground on mandolins; probably why no one talks about it here. #David Rubio has created a ground which has the same chemical trace as many old world grounds. #There have been lots of tests in the violin world and most have concluded there is little difference between GOOD varnishing techniques and materials. #There are some "quacky" types who assert other wise. The thing that gets me is an insistance that there is a noticable difference between the best violins being built today and the best built 300 years ago. So far there isn't! I've read that pro violinist feel old instruments are more playable but do not sound any better than the best being made today. That means there is no secret and if there is one it isn't lost to modern luthiers.

[sunburst]

Not exactly a ground in terms of color, but there was a sealer under the varnish under the spirit top coat on the Loars. (three layers)
Basically, the violin finish tradition uses a ground, and the mandolin tradition - in it's infancy by comparason - does not.

[Chris Baird]

Do you know what that sealer was?

[Stephen Perry]

I'm familiar with the Rubio material. I've used it, have a bottle of it in the shop somewhere.

From my experience as a player, there is a difference between a good 18th C Stradivari and a good modern violin as far as playing goes. I don't think most listeners in tests are violin testers! I've never heard a violinist go "Oh, that must be a del Gesu" on hearing a recording, but I've done that and seen other makers do that and be right.

If my apprentice hadn't taken off with my notebooks, I could look this up. But anyway, I have notes indicating a mineral component next to the wood along with a fruit gum ground. I can hypothesize that an organic ground rubbed out with minerals will do this. Which is what I do.

I wonder whether a good organic ground would help a mandolin. It sure helps violins along nicely. A shame I can't just pick up a mandolin in the white to try it on!

Steve

[sunburst]

Do you know what that sealer was?
Forgot. Should have been taking notes. Charlie told a bunch of us what he'd found out once at the old Nashville Gibson shop, but, Of coarse I didn't write it down.

[Charlie Derrington]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[sunburst]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[Arto]

What is a ground?

[Stephen Perry]

The first layer over the wood that ensures good adhesion of subsequent layers and may have other effects. Studies of old Cremonese violins show that the ground on these instruments is often mineral rich and often contains fruit gum.

[mandough]

Somebody give us an easy grounds recipe.
If it's relatively thin, it should be easier than a thin coat of shellac.

[Stephen Perry]

Mix a little sugar and a little honey (about 1/4 tsp) and 25 g of gum arabic in 100ml warm water. Let cool. Beat an egg white hard, let stand 12 hours and drain off the liquid that collects. Mix the egg liquid into the cooled solution. Apply 1 coat thinnly.

[Chris Baird]

Then deep fry till golden brown at 350 degrees.

[alanstewartra]

Steve, You're already building violins,why don't you build some mandolins? You could put your violin finishing techniques to the test and maybe turn out some killer mandos. Alan

[Stephen Perry]

I suppose I could make a mandolin or two. So much competition in the field, I'm not convinced that it would be worth my time. A models wouldn't be too bad, but the F models are bound to take much work. At least in traditional designs. Non-traditional would be relatively easy, I suppose, but likely have less appeal. I notice that even wonderful sounding A mandolins move much more slowly than F models that aren't nearly as good!!

[mandopete]

...and call them "Son of Brunkzilla"

Sorry, saw the opportunity and I just had to take it!

[fidlmaker]

Brunkzilla? I like it!

[TeleMark]

What is a ground?
I think they prevent your mando from shorting out in an electrical storm.

TeleMark

[mandopete]

Brunkzilla? I like it!
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Hey Martin, you should check out the Mandolin Oddities thread over on the "Post A Picture of Your Mandolin" section - you might get a kick out of the mandolin build by own French Guy (towards the bottom of page 4).