Daydreaming

[vkioulaphides]

It seems that decent mandoloncelli are as scarce as hens' teeth; bowlback ones, as those of flying hens.

Soooooooooooooo, then: I have been toying with this idea for a while, and wish to solicit some comments/suggestions, even if they end up being "You crazy or somethin'?" or "Fuhgedabbaddit!"

Say —just say— I go to a (Greek) bouzouki-builder I know and respect and offer to commission a "special order" instrument. After the initial huffing and puffing subsides, I place my specs on the table:

The bouzouki has a low C string, same octave as the mandoloncello's; the other string of the same course is an octave higher. The corollary: Both the neck and the soundboard would need to be more resilient than usual, in order to sustain the added tension without warping or caving in respectively.

As the bouzouki's other strings are also lighter and of higher pitch than those of the mandoloncello (FAD vs. GDA), this effect is magnified. I do not, however, see this as an insurmountable problem. Unbeknownst to most non-bouzouki-players, Greek bouzoukis are informally but routinely classified as "high", "medium" and "low", corresponding to the tastes and specific usage of their players. Obviously, for a mandocello-in-disguise creature, I would specify that I need all the specs that come with the lowest and bassiest of bouzoukis, i.e. thicker top, heavier bracing, stiffer neck (perhaps with an ebony rod imbedded in it), deeper neckblock, etc., etc.

The bouzouki has long, guitar-like scale. Should I perhaps ask the luthier that this mandoloncello be made to a 60-ish cm. scale rather than the usual 65-ish one? After all, Calace's mandoloncelli stand at 61 cm.; Musikalia's at a wee 58 cm. To attain that lower scale, could he hypothetically "start the fingerboard", so to speak, at the second fret (i.e. graft the pegbox onto a standard bouzouki's neck that has been cut shorter than the usual), and move the bridge and the corresponding bracing accordingly? Naturally, this would also loosen the tension exerted by the heavier strings considerably. Bingo!

Let me not make this TOO long a post. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif If I can get a better instrument made than e.g. what Musikalia sells, and stay below Calace's understandably steep prices ($3,000-plus), dream may in fact become reality. Not to mention the value this instrument would have as a conversation-piece! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[John Bertotti]

I have read many times that people buy premade fret boards and hack off the board at the first fret to shorten the scale. Why not. It all sounds reasonable to me. I would certainly ask one of the luthiers in the builders area. Have fun! John

[Jim Garber]

If you have your heart set on a bowlback mandoloncello, then you prob need to go to a maker of these things, like you suggest. The ready alternative is to convert an archtop guitar which may have a scale that would be closer to the mc.

Jim

[halfdeadhippie]

I hope you are not waiting for anyone's concurrence -

are you mad?

The one thing this world could use a hell of a lot more of

IMHO

is more obscure and strange lute like instruments that folks like the good people on this board can play.

godspeed

[Jacob]

I think you have an excellent idea that should be pursued.

[PlayerOf8]

I wanted an old mandocello for years. Our friend in Naples had two very nice bowlback models, but in a price range even I couldn't surrender to. I ended up purchasing an old Regal Otophone for starters. Finding the rights strings were hard, but I eventually got the instrument set up to my liking, and along came a Gibson from the teens at auction. Now I have three mandocelli. No bowlback yet, but there is a luthier in Belmont, MA, who could make your dreams come true. Maybe mine too.

George

[Jim Garber]

George:
Did you string the octaphone as a mandocello or octave mandolin?

I would imagine that MC strings would implode the octaphone.

Who is the mysterious "luthier in Belmont, MA"? I did not know of another bowlback maker in the US.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

I, too, would like to know the identity of the MA luthier. I am not, however, without avenues to pursue, so to speak: I could approach one of the several bouzouki-builders I know in Athens; if schlepping the instrument back to the U.S. feels more than I can endure, or if the unfavorable currency exchange-rate tilts the scales, I might approach my trusted Dino Bersis in New York.

Nothing like cost-effective madness. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Musikalia's lowest-end mandoloncello is listed at a bit over $1,000; add shipping, insurance, import dues, etc. and you are talking $1,300-ish. A crude instrument, from all I can tell. Musikalia's better, maple-back "Embergher-style" mandoloncello is listed at around $2,000. Just do the math... Still, the workmanship looks pretty crude.

Calace's mandoloncelli are inching their way up to $4,000 by now; I cannot foresee myself with so much "play-money" at hand at ANY time. Case closed, for as happy as I may be with my recent Calace mandolin.

So, then: You can get a decent, unadorned bouzouki in Athens for around 1,000 euro; maybe even a little less. The usual markup for special orders is 30%. Factoring in the exchange-rate, however, you can easily see the sum total crawling up to $2,000— plus the schlep on the plane, the surly stewardesses, the paranoid checkpoint personnel, the grumpy fellow-travelers, the inane "is that a BAZOUKA?" verbal exchanges...

Dino's lowest-end bouzoukis start around $1,300— that is U.S. dollars, a critical difference these days. So, if I can haggle a reasonable markup for this special order, pay in U.S. currency, and NOT deal with a transatlantic trip, my old friend Dino in Queens, New York, U.S.A. may be the best deal. But, again, he does not know anything about my crazy ideas yet... I hold him capable of building an instrument far superior to Musikalia's low-end mandoloncelli for only slightly more money than they charge.

Let us see...

[PlayerOf8]

Jim
I have it tuned cC gG dD aA. Butch called it a contralto mandola and Sean McManus calls it an Irish mandocello

The luthier is Peter Kyvelos. I'm told his work if fantastic.

[Jim Garber]

It looks like Peter Kyvelos specializes in ouds.

I found 2 articles:
1. Helenic Communication Service (http://www.helleniccomserve.com/kyvelos.html)

2. NEA site (http://www.nea.gov/honors/heritage/Heritage01/Kyvelos.html)

I also found this contact info on an Oud site:
PETER KYVELOS & CHRISTOS PANTAZELOS
"Unique Strings" in Belmont, MA (outside of Boston)
Tel:# (617) 489-1254

I see that he has made many styles of instruments from ouds to ukes. I think George might very well have something here.

Jim

[PlayerOf8]

Jim
Peter made or is making a bouzouki for a friends of mine. It is not cheap, but from what I have been told. This guy, is the guy I want to build my bowlback mandocello.

George

[Jim Garber]

Here's a rather naïve (or stupid) question. Has he ever built a bowlback mandolin... or any mandolin, for that matter? Even more important... has he ever built a mandocello? I am sure he is more than capable of doing so but I would imagine that there are some concerns that the tension that mandocello strings put on a bowl that need to be addressed.

It could be an interesting adventure and greazt to work with an illustrious luthier such as Mr. Kyvelos. George, are you seriously considering it or just speaking hypothetically?

Jim

[PlayerOf8]

I'm real serious. I played a Calace mandocello a few months ago. It had a much more focused or rounded sound than either of my Gibsons. It wasn't cheap. The seller wanted $5500 firm. If I am going to get in that deep, I would want a neck that had a little more wood in it and a little larger fret wire. Having one made isn't out of the question. I just finished paying off a quartet of ukuleles that were made to my specs.The celli isn't that far behind in my quest.
Like I said, I'm told that Peter can do it.
George

[Jim Garber]

George:
Who made your ukes? I am sure that Peter K can do the cello -- i was just musing.

Very exciting. Is mandocello one of your main instruments? Would you go for the liuto with the extra course? What scale did the Calace have vs. the Gibson which, I believe, is 24 inches (610mm)?

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Calace's mandoloncelli have a 61 cm. scale, if I remember correctly; Musikalia's, a mere 58 cm.

[PlayerOf8]

Jim
Ray Rapozo at Island Ukuleles is one of the best makers around when it comes to ukes. I very happy with mine.
Mansdocello is not my main instrument, but it could be soon. I've been thinking about thining out some of my collection and using the $ to purchase a serious instrument. Or, keeping my collection whole and just having Bruce Weber do some of his magic on an oval-hole Bridger or the new two point oval hole he is making.
There is a nice Gibson mandocello coming up at Skinners and Vintage Instruments on the west-coast still has that old Kentucky F5 style cello, but I really want an oval hole.
George

[Jacob]

Gruhn Guitars (http://www.gruhn.com/) has two Gibson mandocellos (http://www.gruhn.com/catalog/mf.htm) listed for sale, both with oval holes.
First (http://www.gruhn.com/photo/MF6819.jpg) and second (http://www.gruhn.com/photo/MF6827.jpg). NFI.

[vkioulaphides]

[QUOTE]"... a Calace mandocello... The seller wanted $5500 firm... I would want a neck that had a little more wood in it and a little larger fret wire."

Calace makes two mandoloncello models, one appreciably larger than the other. The current price for the larger one, the one with the fluted staves, is 4,800 euro; the seller's ask price of U.S. $5,500 is certainly in line with that.

If I understand you correctly, George, you felt that the neck was rather thin—#did you have some ugly premonition of it warping under the strain of the heavy MC strings? My concern, as far as the bouzouki-into-MC conversion is concerned, is that Greek bouzoukis have a flat, uncanted top; I worry, in other words, that the top will cave in under the burden of the MC strings, for as sturdily as it may be braced.

The other, smaller model of the Calace shop seems to be more along the proportions of the liuto cantabile by Raffaele Sr., the one posted here recently in the distinguished company of Ms. Stephens and Raffaele Jr. Elegant instrument!

But even the smaller and simpler one, at 2,800 euro, is beyond the dreams of this hack picker. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[vkioulaphides]

I mean this: http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....51;st=0 (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=6;t=16951;st=0)

[margora]

Re: the mandocelli at Gruhn Guitars. I played both very recently. They are both in excellent shape generally and make a very big sound. The necks are masssive, though -- more than I would want to handle on a daily basis.

[vkioulaphides]

Ah. how divergent views come to the surface! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Yes, I would opt for the thinnest durable neck; hence my question to George above.

Or, should I go to some shop like Zozef's, who put truss-rods in each and every bouzouki they build? Then again, customizing would involve a shorter-than-usual rod, and... ugh!

[Jacob]

Robert, thanks for the info on the Gibson necks.
I have never played one, but they sure look nice online.
I once owned a large five-course "cittern" for only a very short time.
The near semi-circular cross section of the neck was more than I could comfortably handle.
Twelve-string guitars that have nice thin necks seem to have been built with double truss rods.

[Jim Garber]

Or, should I go to some shop like Zozef's, who put truss-rods in each and every bouzouki they build? Then again, customizing would involve a shorter-than-usual rod, and... ugh!
Victor:
I am not sure I understand what you are saying. Why would the maker have to use a shorter-than-usual rod? Please explain.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

As above, Jim, I would ask a (hypothetical) bouzouki-builder for a "customized mandoloncello" with less than the usual, 65-ish cm. scale of the bouzouki; the shorter neck would naturally require a shorter truss-rod. My point is that I don't know whether such a shorter rod would be available.

[Jim Garber]

My point is that I don't know whether such a shorter rod would be available.
I think that it shouldn't be a problem. The scale you mention approaches a shorter scale on a guitar. In addition, these rods can usually be cut and rethreaded to accommodate different neck lengths. Stew Mac (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Truss_rods/Traditional_Truss_Rod/Traditional_Truss_Rod.html) carries one.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Duh... It shows that I have no idea of how these contraptions work. This way I will be better informed when I haggle and when the (hypothetical) luthier tries to make this procedure look like brain-surgery.

Thanks, Jim.