Install frets before or after?

[Dick Hutchings]

I'm sure if I can come up with right search term I'll get plenty of info on this but until then, anyone have some opinions?

I'm having a discussion with a friend who like me, has one build behind him. Here's the discussion so far.
Randy
"i dont understand how that would make any difference, since the ebony or rosewood fretboard is pretty stiff by itself?"
Me
"I agree, but... You and I did end up with high frets over the body so I think it may have to do with the clamping procedure. If you get it clamped really good everywhere except over the body, you'll end up with the hump. I think. I posted it to the Cafe."

[Dale Ludewig]

I put my frets in before attaching. A couple of reasons. I use a press rather than pounding them in. It's also easier to clean up the ends, for me, to do it with the fingerboard separate from the neck/body. Oh yes, there's a couple other reasons. If you do (I of course never do) have a problem, it's not already attached and easier to fix. There's another reason or two I can't think of right now. As to the hump, I find it imperative to have a good flat caul and to put a wedge under the extension support. You still have to dress the frets, but you have to do that anyway. I'm sure that other builders will have as many reasons as to why they do it differently......

[Joe Mendel]

I'm with Dale on this, but there are many builders I respect that argue very well for after.

[John Kelly]

I have just finished a travel guitar built as a commission and I fretted that fingerboard before attaching it to the neck. When building my mandolins (15 to date) I almost always fret the fingerboard before gluing it to the neck. As Dale says, it allows a margin for error should anything go wrong during the fretting process and lets you dress the edges of the frets more easily, especially those from the body join upwards. I insert frets with a fretting hammer rather than a press ( I have a hammer; don't have a press!) and keep a flat block of steel under the fingerboard on the workbench while putting the frets in. One of my main considerations in doing it this way is to avoid the possibility of damaging the body of the instrument around the soundboard if hammering in frets after the fingerboard is glued to the neck. I leave out a couple of frets, usually the 3rd and the 14th, so that I can put in register pins through to the neck to keep the board aligned while clamping and gluing it. As has been said, there has to be a really secure system of cauls and clamps in use to ensure that the board is glued fully, but this can still be a problem even if you glue the board first then install the frets. Another advantage of fretting the board first is that the frets get a better grip in the fret slots - as you insert the frets the board takes up a backward bow and this tightens on the frets in their slots when the board is clamped and glued, so the frets are really well seated. I always do the tap test after inserting frets - a quick tap on the two ends of each fret with the end of a square or other small metal object will let you hear if a fret is not well seated by the dull sound it gives out when tapped.

But I'm sure there are just as many reasons for not doing it this way! Go with what works for YOU.

[RJinRI]

I'll have to agree with Dale, Joe & John, since my (Randy in OP) error margins tend to be high anyways.

[Pete Hicks]

I agree, before. It's much easier to press them in with my arbor press.

[Dale Ludewig]

I forgot to mention something. Duh. I don't like pounding frets into a fingerboard over the body. And once those frets are in, what are the chances you'll have to replace them unless the owner wants a different size fret? Those frets get little wear. Just one more thought.

[Geoff B]

I do frets before for the mentioned reasons...

[Big Joe]

I approach it from a whole different angle. I prefer to do it after the fingerboard is on the instrument and the neck in the instrument. This is true for mandolin and guitar. I have had to plane and refret way too many otherwise great instruments from some excellent builders who put the frets in first. In all too many cases the hump can become an issue and to truly repair it properly you have to plane and refret the board.

We do a couple hundred refrets a year so we are used to dealing with frets over the body. We use jigs to help keep the body protected but we are so used to doing them that we don't even think about it. It is a bit more difficult to do them after the neck and board is installed, but after doing a few it won't make that much difference. It is more just getting used to it. Putting the neck and fingerboard on unfretted, then after it has dried sufficiently, plane the board and install the frets and a good share of the issues with some otherwise incredible mandolins and guitars could be resolved.

We began doing the frets after at Gibson and it made them far better and we had lots less problems as well. I certainly don't want to argue with any of my luthier brothers, and I realize why they like to do it first, but doing it after would make your customer much happier....but then it would reduce the amount of work we get :) . Please do not take this as a wholesale slam on any or all builders. Again, I come at it from a whole different perspective. I understand both sides, but have had enough experience to chose my way...for us.

[swampy]

Big Joe, you sold me. Being able to plane the fingerboard after it is all put together sounds perfect to me.

[Michael Lewis]

I'm with Joe on this too. The fingerboard needs to be "perfect" before frets go in, and it is pretty difficult to attach the fretted fingerboard and reliably have "perfection". I also do a lot of repair work and so I am used to fretting instruments with the fingerboards in place.

When making new instruments I fret before finishing the neck, otherwise you risk chipping finish along the edge of the fingerboard.

[bryce]

On mandolins I fret first. I prepair the neck and extension to the profile I want the fingerboard to follow. On guitars I install 12 or 14 then finish the guitar installing the last frets after the neck is attached. But this is more just to keep them out of the way while setting the neck.

[David Collins]

There are a lot of ways to mess it up either way. Like Joe and Michael I strongly prefer to fret after final assembly, as there are lots of variables in the assembly and gluing process that can easily introduce minor to major discrepancies in the shape of the board, and waiting until all these variables are accounted for allows you to do a quick final truing and shaping before installing frets. Yes, on instruments finished with the neck separate this means waiting until after fretting, but if done carefully this can be done without much risk of chipping the finish.

There are no doubt some luthiers who fret their boards off the neck and can get impeccable results in the end, but they are few in my experience. Those who can actually pull it off perfectly are ones who have a lot of experience under their belts, and have very carefully and consciously developed their tools and procedures with all these nuances in mind. I see an awful lot of instruments from builders who can't pull this off however, and though obvious to me when I see them, it seems many don't even recognize the problems they have left in their instruments.

It can be done either way, but neither is as simple as it may seem on the surface, and both have their risks if you're not thoroughly familiar with little nuances that demand attention.

[Rolfe]

Another companion to Joe. I like a perfectly straight fingerboard. Since I use the Teeter method, I don't have to pound on the instrument. I also found, back in the Unicorn days, that the compression of pounded in frets sometimes caused the support to dip, even months after fretting. The result was not a hump, but a drop-off after the fifteenth fret.

[RJinRI]

I think the basic concern here, is what is preferred way for us "newbies" to install frets.
'certain i could fabricate a jig to support body after neck is attached and devise a "press" arrangement to get frets into place, but it sure does scare the #### outta me to do it this way....thanks

[Dick Hutchings]

I'm convinced from this thread to try putting them in after. What's the worst that can happen? I don't think the pounding is all that hard just to get a little fret in and I'm done with Florida frets anyway unless someone really has to have them. I really like the ability to ensure a perfectly flat board prior to fretting. One more question for Joe in regards to "plane the board and install the frets". Do you mean you use a hand plane to get it flat or sanding block? I love to use my hand planes but I wonder if it's really the way to go with a slotted board.

[Gail Hester]

I'm with Joe too, that's the way I do it and for the same reasons.

[Rolfe]

I use sanding blocks exclusively. Some people are really good with the plane, but I don't risk it. A sanding block an inch or two longer the fingerboard is helpful as is one three or four inches long. Sometimes the long block rocks slightly while you are sanding, and it leaves a hump in the middle which the shorter block can take care of. Be patient and find a technique that works for you. I usually start with 150, then 220, then 400. A small triangular file will help you bevel the edges of the fret slots to make it a little easier to get the frets in and lots easier to get them out.

[Joe Mendel]

I should add that my necks are held on by bolts & the FB extension is not glued to the body. That eliminates compression between the neck shaft and any parts that would otherwise be glued to the top, (i.e. the fingerboard extension) and the body. It is my opinion, though I am open to others, that is what causes the hump at the neck to body joint. I do install the frets before finishing.

[Michael Lewis]

To PLANE THE FINGERBOARD means to establish the plane, or flat (straight) surface. On nice straight grain a hand plane could be used but ebony is very brittle and often obscures irregular grain which will chip very easily, so I use a sanding block of sorts faced with float glass on which I put Norton self stick abrasive.

[Big Joe]

Yes...we use sanding blocks. It is much easier and faster, and more accurate. For getting a fingerboard in proper condition that is the easiest and fastest method we have found. With the right sanding blocks you can keep, eliminate, or establish any radius the fingerboard allows as well.

[Mario Proulx]

My argument is that when you plane and level that fingerboard to perfection on the instrument, then add the frets, you've just induced a bunch of stress into the fretboard that wants to make it backbow, and not evenly, since there are more frets per inch in the upper end of the fretboard than the lower end. Is it any wonder so many mandolin soon develop a "hump' at the neck joint? It's not a hump so much as the extension being pushed down into a backbowed shape by the frets which are trying to make the surface of the fretboard longer than the bottom of the fretboard. The same fret-induced tension is doing the same to the rest of the neck, but we then counter that with string tension, and finally a adjustable truss rod. We end up with a fretboard surface that is always fighting some other tension! Some it it will dissipate soon, some will take years to resolve and we see that in older instruments in the form of humps and jumps and bumps....


By fretting before installing the fretboard, we can machine the fretboard to a high degree of flatness/precision, install the frets to the same high degree of flatness/precision, if not a higher degree, and now work the fretboard so that it lays perfectly flat and maintain that flatness/precision by bending it backwards, as needed and where needed until it lays perfectly flat on its own, once again, before gluing it to the neck and extension, which we will of course bring to a high level of flatness and precision. No stresses were added, so we have a dead/flat fretboard, with frets, glued to a dead-flat and level neck and extension. Can't do better than that.

Here's a shot of how I take the fretted fingerboard back to dead flat. Simply clamp it down with a 1/2" riser at each end. Seems dangerous, but I've never had one break, or even make any sound like it was wanting to break, when doing this. Leave it like this for a few hours or more. It sets the fret tangs deeper into the slots' sides, and completely relaxes the fretboard. Repeat in shorter section with lower riser blocks as needed to work out any humps or bumps; sounds trickier than it is, as it's really easy and quick to do. Rather very much like chasing dents in sheet metal. Work it until it lays dead flat, on its own, and on a very flat surface. I have a granite surface plate as well as a heavy cast iron table rescued from an old machine of some sort, but any good, flat surface will do for checking it. When done and strung up, I rarely have more than 2-3 frets that need very minor leveling. Just another reason I love using SS frets; with this method, it ain't any harder to use them than to use NS.

[fishtownmike]

I like to install them to the fingerboard while it's unmounted. I hammer them in and i still find this easier then doing it after the fingerboards glued on. Like others mentioned i also find it easier to trim and bevel them away from the instrument which can possible cause some damage if careless. I once put a dent in a top on an instrument i was fretting after i glued the fingerboard on. I somehow hit the top while beveling.