Hide Glue Basics

[Darryl Wolfe]

OK, so I have not used hide glue and have ordered some for some repairs that I will be doing. I've searched the old threads and we have a lot of scattered info on the subject.

I've seen the posts on mixing ratio and heat to 140 degrees and such. But how about posting a recap of maybe 10 basics on it's use, storage, clamp time and such here in one place.

[MikeEdgerton]

While you're waiting for everyone to weigh in you might want to check out Frank Ford's page on Hide Glue (http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Data/Materials/hideglue.html).

And since this is a repository of all the Hide Glue information, here (http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/search.php?query=hide+glue&exactname=0&starteronly=0&forumchoice%5B%5D=45&prefixchoice%5B%5D=&childforums=1&titleonly=1&searchdate=0&beforeafter=after&do=process) is a search string of all the threads in the Builders section with Hide Glue in the title.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Thank..I guess I didn't know how to search title only

d

[sunburst]

You need a method for controlled heat, the threads here are full of suggestions of inexpensive, dime store products.
I like to use distilled water just because it's cheap and when I took chemistry in college it was what we did to make sure we weren't introducing any unknowns into the mix.
It's not critical what ratio you mix the glue and water. I like to mix it thick and then dilute it to the consistency I want when I'm ready to use it.
I like to keep things clamped for a couple of hours minimum, over night usually, but I do rubbed joints for top and back plate center seams so those aren't clamped at all. I leave them undisturbed for as long as possible (up to 24 hours) and then continue work only after at least 24 hours.
Don't over-cook it, don't keep the mixed glue too long, throw it out and clean the glue pot if any mold or bacteria get started in there, practice heating the wood and gluing some things, and you're good to go. It's really pretty simple, but mistakes can be made...

[David Newton]

Hi Darryl
I find hide glue is effective at a very wide range of mixing ratios, from thick to thin.
All rules are variable, depending on the specific glue you buy.
I mix by eye, fill the volume of dry glue with water to just cover.
Once it is dissolved, add water to the consistency that I like, which is thinner than honey, but not watery thin.
I like to use it at 150 degrees, in a squeeze bottle, heated by a small crock pot of water to the level of the glue.
I warm the parts to be joined using a small space heater on the bench, blowing down at the parts.
I apply the glue to both parts, by pouring out of the bottle, or take the top off and use a brush, depending on the application.

[Jim Baker]

For me the most difficult aspect of using hide glue is applying the glue and clamping before the glue gels. Otherwise it's a breeze. I've had a baby food jar of hide glue mixed in my fridge for 2 years and there is still no sign of it going bad. I glued a guitar bridge a couple months ago and the glue worked as well as the day I mixed it.

[Michael Cameron]

I think Don MacRostie(hide-glue guru) said that YOU,yourself need to be,physically,hot when using the stuff.
Good thread.

[David Newton]

Clamping speed is THE critical skill with hide glue, but you really shouldn't be in a hurried rush.
Thickness (thinness) of the glue, and heat of the parts are two major elements.
Figure all your specific elements, such as the type of clamps you use.
I've evolved my procedure over time with experience. Gluing up a guitar top or back is the most time-critical part, and I used to glue it up in phases, working around the rim a few clamps at a time, spreading the un-clamped joint, wicking in more glue, and moving on.
Now, I've worked it out to do it all in one fell swoop. It's a pretty neat trick, but no one can be watching me 'cause I'm spooky.

[Steve Hinde]

Can someone chime in on gram strength and different types of hide?
1 more tip. You need a good tight, well made joint. No matter what the glue, but more important with hide. Don't over-clamp, the glue will shrink back, hence the rubbed plate joints.
Guitar tops and backs are very tricky. Mandolin tops and backs not so much. Practice clamping quickly and have everything prepared.
You want to use it....practice first

[David Newton]

Right-o Steve, right on every point.
I think it is hard to find hide glue that is not strong enough, gram strength wise. My supplier carries 315, which is "too strong" by most accounts, but I just run it thinner and have plenty, that is, just enough, open time.

[Rick Turner]

I beg to differ re. guitar backs and tops. I use brown "strong back" tape and hinge the joints, set the piece up using more tape as a kind of spring clamp, squeeze a line of HHG from a 2 oz. dispenser bottle that's been sitting in my old glue pot water bath, and pop down the top or back. No clamps needed, no jigs, no fixtures, just a bunch of tape. You cannot see the glue line, and I can do as many tops or backs at once as I please, sometimes doing twenty at a shot. It is no more difficult than using any modern glue other than the need to heat it up.

The great thing about HHG is that it sands so nicely in my wide belt sander...no gumming up, no smearing into the wood. In that sense alone, it's cheaper to use than Titebond or LMI white glue.

And you're darned right I'll "market" my use of HHG. Tradition meets innovation in my shop...

[Bill Halsey]

I use Bjorn Ind. #192 hide glue granules for just about everything. I usually make very little at a time in a small (perhaps ~3 oz) glass container. I start with about 3/4" cold water, then add glue granules to a little more than halfway to the top of the water; i.e., about a 3:5 glue/water ratio.

The glue will absorb the water and swell up a bit; shouldn't take too long (half-hour should do it), but don't heat it before it's dissolved. Better to add water if it is too thick -- don't add glue granules to a hot pot. I put the glass container into a small water-bath crock pot (the Rival "Little Dipper" is perfect).

Over-heating the mixture will "cook" the glue and will weaken the glue by breaking down the protein chains that give it strength. Heat it only enough to keep it fluid. Warm the parts to be glued, then re-warm the joint after the clamps are on.

For me, the three most important rules for hide glue are, 1: dissolve it in cold water, 2: never allow it to become hotter than ~145-150 F., and 3: work very quickly when gluing (it is quite helpful to rehearse any new, unfamiliar clamping arrangement).

Four hours should be sufficient clamping time if your studio is room temp.

[Michael Lewis]

One point no one has mentioned yet is CLEAN UP! Make sure you clean up any squeeze out or drips before they dry. A brush and warm water (I use the water in my glue pot) will wash over the wet glue and melt any that has gelled. Wipe up any residual water with a paper towel or rag. Never leave anything pooled, whether it be water, glue, or finish. Hide glue cleans up very nicely but if you leave it to dry you will probably cause damage trying to clean it up, so do it while it is fresh.

I often use a hair drier to warm parts and to dry wet surfaces after clean up.

[sunburst]

...Hide glue cleans up very nicely but if you leave it to dry you will probably cause damage trying to clean it up, so do it while it is fresh.

I take it from that that you haven't tried De-Glue-Goo yet, Michael. I can get dried hide glue of of any surface, finished or not, with no damage, by using De-Glue-Goo. It's still easier to clean it up when it's fresh, but there are always those times when we miss a little, or clamps are in the way, or whatever.

[buddyellis]

I like Mario Proulx's idea of cooking up a batch of glue, letting it gel, and cutting it up into ice cube or smaller size squares for later use in a plastic squeeze condiment bottle. Load the bottle with a few large stainless steel nuts for heat retention.

[Bill Halsey]

I allow the squeeze-out to gel, perhaps a half-hour, then peel off as much as I can with a small sculptor's spatula. Then, if necessary, I go after it with a brush & hot water.

A small acid brush with the tubular metal handle works well for glue clean-up from the hot water bath. I hammer the handle flat so as not to hold water, and it will fit between clamps and into tight places as well. I usually trim the bristles to about 3/8" for stiffness.

[Steve Hinde]

Ok, a quick way to clamp it down with tape. Thanks Rick. PERFECT! I can get the glue down fast, but my concern is getting clamps on all the way around. All I have is spool clamps. I can do it, but you have to MOVE. I use the tape for binding and it works real well, just never dawned on me to use it for this. You are right on, I don't need so much clamping force anyway.

Steve

[Darryl Wolfe]

OK, thanks all for a nice reference thread. Everything went well and I love using this stuff. I am especially impressed with as Sunburst put it "the rubbing of joints" and how it self clamps up.

There is one thing nobody mentioned though. The wife told me she thought we had a dead bird in the chimney flue again

[MikeEdgerton]

...There is one thing nobody mentioned though. The wife told me she thought we had a dead bird in the chimney flue again

Obviously you never had a dead horse in the chimney flue or she would have recognized the smell...

[Michael Lewis]

Darryl, if you think regular hide glue has a smell you might try bone glue. It comes in little buttons instead of granules , and STINK . . . . . . . ! Oh my! It is very sticky though. Your dog (or the neighbor's dog) will love you.:))

[Mario Proulx]

Some glue will smell, some won't; I know for sure that my 192 gram high clarity doesn't smell bad; it's rather pleasant and nice smelling. The regular glue I used before this had a stronger, more, ummm, earthy, smell to it. And as Michael said, bone glue is just nasty ;)

[Darryl Wolfe]

In all honesty the glue did not smell much until well after I was done using it. I accidentally let what was left cook down and it got a bit hotter than it should. I just tossed that

[polkat]

Here's an emergency tip: I made violins for many years and bought the best hide I could find. Sometimes, because I live in a semi-rural area, I'd run out just when I needed some for a repair. Turns out that Knox Unflavored Geletin (from the local food store) makes a pretty good substitute (and in fact is a form of hide glue). The grain strength is high so you have to work with it faster then standard hide, and keep things well warmed, but it is so strong that it became my standard glue for neck joints. Probably useless info for most of you, and it's expensive compaired to regular hide, but it's good in an emergency! Sometimes a little salt added to the original mix will keep mixed glue a bit longer.