Tuning of Octave mandolin and Mandocello

[Ange Braysha]

My first exposure to the mandolin was almost 50 years ago when as a young child of seven, I was taken by my uncle to a mining camp where he was visiting some of his friends. While we were there, one of his friends started playing a mandolin. Ever since then I have been fascinated by the instrument but never did anything about taking it up.

Well now I have a bit of time on my hands and have decided that I would like to learn to play one of the mandolin family of instruments.

In May my wife and I, are going to her nephew's wedding in Cebu in the Philippines.

Cebu is the guitar making capital of the Philippines and they also make a local version of the mandolin called a banduria which has 10, 12, 14 or 16 strings.

I have contacted one of the guitar makers/luthiers there and he is willing to make an 8 string mandolin/mandola/mandocello for me while I am there.

Over the last 2 weeks I have spent almost all of my spare time researching on the internet regarding mandolins. mandolas and mandocellos.

That research has raised two questions which I am hoping that someone may be able to answer for me.

The first concerns the mandola and the second the mandocello.

On one website (which I unfortunately did not bookmark and now cannot find again)I remember seeing a comment that on the mandola instead of tuning the strings in unison they can be tuned an octave apart, I presume that this is done by using a lighter gauge string e.g. two G strings an octave apart. For this my question is in two parts:

(a) Strings used on which other instrument would be suitable for the lighter set of strings (or perhaps what gauge of string I should be looking at for the lighter set???

(b) The website also mentioned that for that to happen both the nut and the bridge have to be modified to take the lighter strings. Does that mean that the groove for the lighter strings is deeper or shallower than if the two strings were the same diameter as would be the case if they were tuned in unison?

As regards the mandocello AS WELL AS THE ABOVE QUESTION(S) I am also interested in the possibility of tuning an octave apart, hence answers to the above questions but for the mandocello, the following question as well:

While I understand that the mandocello is tuned like a regular cello, is it possible to tune the mandocello in a similar way to that of the mandolin and mandola i.e. instead of tuning it C G D A is it possible to tune it G D A E and what string(from another type of instrument or size of gauge) would I use for the E , here I am assuming that I can use the G D and A strings for the mandocello by just moving them one position up/across the fretboard.

You might wonder why I am asking this 'silly' question.

Well the answer is that I like the deeper/richer tone of the mandocello and am interested in learning one of these instruments for my own enjoyment rather than playing mandocello pieces per se, and from listening to dozens of clips on You Tube I prefer the fuller/richer/deeper sound of the mandocello to that of the mandolin and mandola.

I would be very grateful if someone could find the time to answer these questions for me.

[Rvl]

My mandocello is strung GDAE
I like the big body
I sometimes tune it with octave strings on the G and D
At the moment( as of yesterday.....it is strung with octaves on the D only)
At the moment am using light strings 36 24(12) 14 10

I like the thick body of the Mandocello, it makes for a softer and fuller sound with more bass
But if I was playing with many people acoustically it wouldnt cut through
But I usually play in 2 different Duos and occasionally a Solo (if I can get up the necessary courage)

Thanks

Robert VanLane

[Mandobart]

I remember seeing a comment that on the mandola instead of tuning the strings in unison they can be tuned an octave apart, I presume that this is done by using a lighter gauge string e.g. two G strings an octave apart. For this my question is in two parts:

(a) Strings used on which other instrument would be suitable for the lighter set of strings (or perhaps what gauge of string I should be looking at for the lighter set???

(b) The website also mentioned that for that to happen both the nut and the bridge have to be modified to take the lighter strings. Does that mean that the groove for the lighter strings is deeper or shallower than if the two strings were the same diameter as would be the case if they were tuned in unison?

As regards the mandocello AS WELL AS THE ABOVE QUESTION(S) I am also interested in the possibility of tuning an octave apart, hence answers to the above questions but for the mandocello, the following question as well:

is it possible to tune the mandocello in a similar way to that of the mandolin and mandola i.e. instead of tuning it C G D A is it possible to tune it G D A E and what string(from another type of instrument or size of gauge) would I use for the E , here I am assuming that I can use the G D and A strings for the mandocello by just moving them one position up/across the fretboard.


I am no expert, but here is my input. I think the website you reference at the beginning may be talking about a bouzouki, not a mandola. Bouzouki is basically an octave mandolin with octave vs unison strings on the lower two courses. Of course, any kind of tuning is theoretically possible on any instrument; however I see two issues:
1) If you try to use octave pairs on an instrument that has grooves in the nut sized for unison strings, the lighter octave strings will likely sit too close to the fingerboard. The grooves on the bridge are you usually shallow enough that it shouldn't require modification to switch between unison and octave strings.

2) String tension is the result of scale length, string core diameter (wire winding on strings adds mass, but doesn't affect the tension) and pitch. If you depart significantly from the instruments design string size or pitch, you could overload the top and cave it in (tension too high). If you change things to lower the tension too much, your strings won't drive the soundboard and it will sound dead or dampened. I would never take an instrument tuned to say CGDA and try to tune the same strings a fifth higher to GDAE.

If you are having a custom made instrument, this should not be a problem; just tell the luthier what you want for scale length and pitch of each course (and whether strings will be octave or unison) and he/she will build and string it accordingly.

My .02: since you are new to the mandolin, go with standard sizing/tuning for the instrument you choose. This will make it easier to learn as your tuning will match the books, lessons, etc. I would go with CGDA for the cello; the scale length is long enough to let you capo it to GDAE and it will still sound good (mine does, at least). Or consider a longer scale octave mandolin (they range from ~ 20" to ~ 25"). These are normally tuned to GDAE, an octave below the mandolin (a fifth above the 'cello). I have an F-style oval hole OM with a very rich sound and lots of sustain. I personally consider the OM more versatile than the 'cello. For more informed response, I would post this on the builder's forum.

[John McGann]

In the USA, mandocello and mandola are CGDA low to high
Octave mandolin (http://www.johnmcgann.com/om.html) and mandolin are GDAE

[Paul Hostetter]

In the USA, mandocello and mandola are CGDA low to high
Octave mandolin (http://www.johnmcgann.com/om.html) and mandolin are GDAE

This says it.

Nomenclature is slightly different in Europe where, for example, the thing most Americans think of as a mandocello is tuned GDAE and called variously a mandole or a mandola—tuned to the same pitches as what Americans regard as an octave mandolin.

http://www.lutherie.net/bassi.e.mandole.jpg

[allenhopkins]

My shorthand way of approaching octave stringing in the 3rd and 4th courses -- which would be "G" and "D" on an octave mandolin, "C" and "G" on a mandocello, or a mandola (mandola and mandocello, of course, being an octave apart) -- is to look at the strings in the 1st and 2nd courses. Let's take the octave mandolin: the 4th course is tuned to "G," and the 2nd course to "A," a 9th above. You could take one of the 2nd strings, put it in the 4th course, and tune it to "G." It would be an octave above the other 4th string, and one full tone lower than it would be tuned in the 2nd course. Similarly with the 3rd-course "D" string, taking an "E" string from the 1st course and putting it in the 3rd course, tuned a full tone lower to "D."

As Mandobart astutely points out above, make sure that the slots in the nut and bridge saddle are of the right depth to make the two unequal strings in each course evenly strike-able.

As to tuning a mandocello like an octave mandolin, it's eminently do-able, since the octave mandolin strings are much lighter than the mandocello strings. However, the question is what sound you'd get, since the lighter-tension strings might not adequately "drive" the top to get a good response. My suggestion would be to get an instrument properly designed to be one or the other, which you can do since you're getting it luthier-built.

Hope it works out well for you!

[Ange Braysha]

Thank you one and all.

Your various responses have given me a lot of food for thought and basically answered all my questions.

WHAT A WONDERFUL INTRODUCTION TO THE FORUM.

Ange Braysha