Gibson Master Model?

[majorbanjo]

OK...with all the quality mando builders out there building for less.....do the master model gibsons really sell for the prices that I see advertised? and distressed are crazy.. I played one that I thought was incredible....but when I asked the price...I was and still am shocked......?....

[John Kasley]

Well, in the retail world of new mandolins there are often 3 prices: "list price", the "minimum advertised price", and the "discounted price"(what you actually pay to the dealer). In the case of the Gibson MM, which one are you referring to? Also, remember that the current Master Models have a varnish/french polish finish...lots of manual labor involved in applying this finish compared to spraying/buffing out a lacquer finish. The cachet of the Gibson marque also ups the price. I bought mine just before Gibson changed their pricing strategy a number of years ago. At the time it was about the same as the equivalent Collings varnish finish F model.

[majorbanjo]

OK..got it...I know the pricing methodology.....I"m talking about the poor country boy final out of the store walk out and say it's mine price.....and I know about the finish method....the other smaller luthiers were doing it before Gibson went back to it.....Gibson name is worth something....although if Gibson wrote Gil or Nugget on the head stock it would most certainly increase the value....so the Gibson name in a current mandolin is only good up to a point.....and....that brings us back to my question...

[f5loar]

Well seems a lot of long time Ford buyers went to buying Toyotas and now wished they had not changed.
The quality will remain long after the price is forgotten. Gibson still has the life time warrenty to the original owner.
50 years from now Gibson will still repair your mandolin. It's unlikely the widow or grandchildren of XX custom handmade mandolin will repair it for you.

[Greg H.]

True, but after they've repaired it you may feel so unhappy with their work that you pull out your pocket knife and cut out the name Gibson from the peghead.

50 years from now of course....

[woodwizard]

A Gibson will have to do ... :grin: I believe Norman Blake said that once.


But seriously I honestly believe they are worth every penny.

[Bernie Daniel]

OK..got it...I know the pricing methodology.....I"m talking about the poor country boy final out of the store walk out and say it's mine price.....and I know about the finish method....the other smaller luthiers were doing it before Gibson went back to it.....Gibson name is worth something....although if Gibson wrote Gil or Nugget on the head stock it would most certainly increase the value....so the Gibson name in a current mandolin is only good up to a point.....and....that brings us back to my question...

If I read your comments/opinions correctly I think it is obvious that Gibson is not the ideal brand for you because you do not value the advantages that the name Gibson bestows. Others obviously see it differently -- values are values. The are personal and usually not something worth debating?

Your unstated point is that other mandolins are as good as Gibson MM's and DMM's and yet cost less. I expect that is probably true -- Gibson mandolins are built by humans like other quality mandolins.

On the other hand, if you put "Gil on Nugget" on the headstock you will pay MORE for the mandolin than for Gibson. But again these more expensive mandolins are also made by humans and may not be BETTER that a DMM --and for sure they are not Gibsons.

So like almost everything else it depends..................

[John Kasley]

Well, all I can say is, I used to be shocked about the cost of high quality fretted instruments back when I started out playing the 5 string banjo many years ago. And I do think it's true that at some level you get to a point of diminishing returns in terms of tonal quality vs. price. But then you look at fine instruments in the violin family, high end fretted instruments start to look like a bargain. Not to say they're necessarily affordable, esp if you haven't got the cash and not willing to go into hock.
Personally, I've tried to buy the best instrument I could afford at the time, and then trade up if I felt the need and had the means.

[Big Joe]

Price all depends upon who you get it from and when. There is a list price, and a good many of the MM and DMM were sold originally at full list or very close to it. Some even went for over list price. That was because of the demand and the fact that they were built in very small numbers. Some dealers have discounted as times got a bit tough economically. However, the used market is a bit different. The prices were close to retail early on, and those who got the MM early on before the prices rose actually were able to get more for their mandolins used than they cost them new. As the economy faltered the used market followed very closely. Just a year and a half ago the prices were pretty well bottomed out on just about all stringed instruments. The prices have been rising steadily over the last 9-12 months and the MM and DMM are doing as well as they were a few years ago. I would expect to see them continue to rise over the next few years as long as the economy continues to improve. Especially the Derrington models since no more can ever be made. They were incredible mandolins and less than 100 ever built. The quality and rarity combined will help drive prices up.

[woodysny]

Big Joe is right on target. Just wait for the right used Derrington MM to come up for sale and snap it up. I think you will more than satisfied with the quality, tone and the value over time.

[goose 2]

In my view you cannot go wrong by getting a Master Model. I have owned lots of different mandolins and for my ears they sound best. Also they are as well made as ANY mandolin. I agree with Joe that that Derrington ones are unique. They are exceptionally fine and rare. I think they are the most collectible mandolin out there besides Loars and '20s Ferns. That is what I would try and find if I were in the market. I have also heard from several reliable sources that the few coming out from the factory now are spectacular, which makes complete sense as Dave Harvey is in charge. As far as price, call Dave Harvey at Gibson and discuss it with him. Ill bet you will save a ton of money compared to others such as Gil, Nugget, Monteleone, of Dudenbostel.

[barry k]

Sorry, I cannot correctly reply to your question......My crystal ball is in the dry cleaners. Could I borrow one of yall's? How could anyone predict the future of a company 50 years from now...come on, get real

[Big Joe]

History is a pretty good measure of the future. Over the years the Gibson instruments have risen and have increased in value over a period of time. Even with the down turn in the market, the Gibson mandolins have continued to do pretty well. The more recent models did not rise as quickly as normal, but the older ones have held pretty steady. For example, a mid 90's F5L sold new at street price for about 2500.00 but today will bring 5K +/- . Not a bad return for a few years old. It has been amazing to watch the price of the vintage Gibsons rise.....even those instruments which were not highly regarded. While one can never tell what tomorrow will bring, it is possible to make a pretty educated guess. Even the MM and DMM have seen a good rise in value. The original price of the MM was only about 10K list. It grew to about 18K over a period of years. The used MM hit a low of about 11K used. That has been rising in the last year and I see no reason to expect them to not continue the value increase as the economy rebounds. When you have a very rare instrument that cannot be done again...especially since the builder is dead...the value has historically increased. In time they will be as valuable as any other instrument out there for two reasons. First, the quality is equal to any other as is the tone. Second, the rarity of these instruments will create a demand again. The demand causes prices to rise. This is just my opinion but it is bound by history and experience.

[f5loar]

The Crystal ball says Gibson made it over the 100 year hump and will continue in business until the end of mankind. After that I doubt it would matter if they are in business or not. Gibson has already been through about 6 owners. Heck if the price was right I'd buy the Company.

[Links]

Well seems a lot of long time Ford buyers went to buying Toyotas and now wished they had not changed.
The quality will remain long after the price is forgotten. Gibson still has the life time warrenty to the original owner.
50 years from now Gibson will still repair your mandolin. It's unlikely the widow or grandchildren of XX custom handmade mandolin will repair it for you.

Tom - I sure hope my DMM has a lifetime warranty, as my Monroe, whose tailpiece broke for the second time, did not. I was astonished to find out that it had like a five year warranty.

[Big Joe]

Hardware does not have a lifetime warranty. The finish has not warranty. Only structural defects or defects in the wood are covered. Hardware is considered a wear item. Tailpieces do wear out and break. So do tuners and bridges. While it would be nice if they would cover all those things under warranty, that would raise the price even more. The tailpieces on the Monroe models were pretty bad though. Worse yet, that exact tailpiece is no longer available so the bases available today often will not fit the covers used then. When it comes to Gibson warranty you have to remember that the "warranty card" you send in does not register the warranty. You have to save the sales receipt and send a copy of that with the instrument for warranty service. Only the sales receipt is accepted as proof of original ownership and the receipt must be from an authorized Gibson dealer at the time the instrument was made. Most manufacturers have similar issues associated with their warranties, so it is not just one company.

The Monroe was a good mandolin, the DMM is a great mandolin, and the warranty is a great thing to have, but one must understand what is and what is not covered. Just like with your car.

I have no interest or stake or financial interest in the success of Gibson or any of its products, but I do have a bit of knowledge about these things from my years there. The repair and restoration/ warranty division was one of the divisions under my supervision at the time. I had to handle many issues with customers concerning warranties. I always tried to do all I could to help the consumer, but not everyone in the company had the same idea. If you reach customer service you reach someone on a telephone that has no clue about repair and only has his book in front of him. He can only respond according to that book by orders from his boss. They are not bad guys and don't like to tell a customer they don't get help, but they can only do what they can. Sometimes you can reach someone at the divisional level and get a bit better service. Getting that person in the right division is the hard part and there is not clear path as to how to do that.

[JeffD]

History is a pretty good measure of the future... .

I think this is right. Maybe not all the time for everything, but in general. I don't think our times (the last year say) have been so unique that we need throw all generalizations out the window.

For me particularly, its a paripheral issue, as I buy to keep for ever, and the value the instrument may have when I pass on is not something I think about.

[Links]

Quote: "Hardware does not have a lifetime warranty. The finish has not warranty. Only structural defects or defects in the wood are covered. Hardware is considered a wear item. Tailpieces do wear out and break. So do tuners and bridges. While it would be nice if they would cover all those things under warranty, that would raise the price even more. The tailpieces on the Monroe models were pretty bad though. Worse yet, that exact tailpiece is no longer available so the bases available today often will not fit the covers used then."

Joe: The Gibson warranty should cover bridges and tailpieces as the warranty sitting here in my hand does not exclude them, nor does it mention only structural defects in the wood. It states that the warranty does not cover "Normal wear and tear, tonal characteristics, worn frets, worn machine heads, worn plating, strings, scratched pickguards, or damage in shipping." There are several other things that it does not warrant, but none concern hardware.

The way I read the warranty, I think it could also include the finish under certain conditions - i.e faulty lacquer. It would not cover the finish due to cracking, discoloration, or damage (assumed caused by the player or exposing it to extreme temperatures). A friend of mine recently sent back a Martin D-18 GE to be refinished after the lacquer just began to flake off all over the guitar. Martin had used a bad batch of lacquer and apparently had to refinish a number make from that batch of finish. I am not sure, but bet their warranty states that it does not cover the finish.

PS: While looking through a box of "stuff" recently I found another tailpiece for my Monroe that Gibson sent me to use while my replacement was being re-plated. I think it will work fine after I get a chance to send it out to be silver plated.

[Big Joe]

Links...I'm not defending or even agreeing with what may or may not be covered, just explaining. If you can get coverage beyond what I mentioned you are a lucky person. Again, it all has to do with who you can reach at the company. When I was there I took care of the consumer as much as humanely possible, as did Charlie. However, if you did not reach us we would no know about an issue and would not be able to intervene. Again, I don't have any interest or stake in what they currently do, but did try to explain the corporate philosophy concerning warranty issues.

[Dusty]

Kudos to Big Joe for the care and personal touch he gave while at Gibson. You are missed.

[Links]

Joe:

You are absolutely correct that when you were there things got done and items you knew were faulty got covered - period! My only observation is that Gibson is pretty specific in their written warranty regarding what is and is not covered. A mandolin does not have that many individual parts, so adding "tailpiece and bridge" to their list of othe items would not be a problem if they did not want them covered. Also, it does not mention anywhere that "all hardware" is a "wear item". Of course, you should know and if you say they were then I guess they were. However, strictly from a legal standpoint, I don't think Gibson gets to make up their warranty rules as they go along - only the ones stated in the warranty should apply!

That is why it is important for companies to have someone like you - that has common sense - to deal with warranty issues and put "customer" back into customer service!

[chip]

When I purchased my Derrington signed MMF5-V I called Gibson and spoke with Charlie on the first try. He remembered my mandolin as it was made for Chris Hillman. To be able to get through to him and talk about the mandolin is in my opinion a great attribute to Gibson as a company. They have helped me through the years with a variety of services and that speaks volumes about the company in general. I've played many mandolins and my MM and Gil provide the tone and quality that I was looking for. If you have the dough I'd encourage you to pick one up.

[woodwizard]

Danny Roberts was/is another good Gibson guy that will take good care of ya. He did for me.

[Mike Romkey]

I knew this topic would draw some interesting posts. (g) I was a bit exercised myself about the pricing change awhile back, but I don't really think they're out of line with what you'd pay for any other top-notch F-5. Lots of hours of labor.

While I would never, ever, even if I had millions lying about, pay $19,000 or whatever for a new mandolin of any make, I've been thinking lately that an MM is in my future. But it'll have been a five or 10 year process by the time I get there. I started with a Breedlove, which I sold and bought a Collings MT. I traded the Collings in on a Adam Steffey F-5. Next time I come into a windfall, I might go looking for a dealer with a used MM who is willing to give me a fair price for the Steffey. Then, ta da. Will my wife notice the MM isn't the Steffey? Not unless you tell her!

I'm not sure, Big Joe, if you're saying the DMMs are better than the MMs. Is that the case? I've never been a fan of the distressed-instrument thing, though having one would certainly make it less agonizing to endure the first inevitable small ding.

[Big Joe]

Better is really a relative thing when it comes to the high end stuff. Different is a better concept. It does affect the tone and give it a much older sound. It also looks older. I like it more personally, but that does not mean it is "Better". Only different. As I've said many time, different strokes for different folks. Some like a DMM, others the MM, others a Gil, others a Dude, others a Rover. The cool thing is that there is something for everyone at every level and price point.

[Bernie Daniel]

....While I would never, ever, even if I had millions lying about, pay $19,000 or whatever for a new mandolin of any make, I've been thinking lately that an MM is in my future. ....I might go looking for a dealer with a used MM who is willing to give me a fair price for the Steffey. Then, ta da. Will my wife notice the MM isn't the Steffey? Not unless you tell her!...I'm not sure, Big Joe, if you're saying the DMMs are better than the MMs. Is that the case? I've never been a fan of the distressed-instrument thing, though having one would certainly make it less agonizing to endure the first inevitable small ding.

I agree Mike, I'm gonna do the same thing -- but I DO want a DMM. My only problem will be it will have to be better than the 2002 Fern I have right now and there aren't a lot of mandos out there that are (IMO). Likewise, my wife will not notice the change over either and instrument boxes come and go here all the time!:)

[Buck]

I don't know if this answers the original question or not, but IMO there is no way to get more mandolin for $12K than a used MM.

[KitLarson]

Hi I would like to say that I looked for a mandolin for 5years always hoping to end up with a Gibson F5,I had most knock offs from overseas and finaly purchased a gibson f5 mm and the differance in sound and finished product is very noticed I like my Gibson a lot for the finished product but also for the large sound it just feels and sounds right,lots out there hand made but I am happy with my Gibson yes it did hit me in the pocket book,I dont regret it one bit. thanks dc:mandosmiley:

[carleshicks]

I don't know if this answers the original question or not, but IMO there is no way to get more mandolin for $12K than a used MM.

I agree 100%. the only Mando I have played that I think compares was a '23 Loar and they cost a bit more than $12K.

While we are talking about this you can drool over some of the pics i have posted here. http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Gibson-F-5-Master-Model-Registry/457824645116

[red7flag]

My answer for a Loar/Gibson sound at a more affordable price (I think about $7.2k now) is the Stanley F5. Here's a quote from Charles Johnson, Mandolin World, talking about Chris Stanley. "I'll tell you how much I like Chris's mandolins - I bought one for myself. Chris Stanley is a great picker and has owned several Loars and Ferns, so he knows tone. He's also an accomplished woodworker and luthier, so when he decided to build mandolins he had a pretty good head start."

[Chris Biorkman]

Yeah that might be true, but I think there are a lot of people out there that just want to see "The Gibson" on the headstock.

[Mike Bunting]

Yeah that might be true, but I think there are a lot of people out there that just want to see "The Gibson" on the headstock.
But they don't carry much weight.