Branded Product Variability

[Chuck Naill]

I often read reviews saying that Eastman/ Kentucky et al are good if you get a good one. I have never read this about high end products. Two possibilities exist, IMO, either no one is going to complain about a $20K instrument or there is just more consistency in the higher end products.

Any thoughts?

[EdHanrahan]

Two thoughts:


The more it costs, the more time & effort the maker can put into ensuring that EACH instrument is the best that it can be. Yes, there is more "consistency" because the maker can adjust for each piece of wood's inherent INconsistency. And remember that even (maybe especially?) super-cheapos benefit from several hours of personal attention & setup that, otherwise, would have tripled their price.
Folks willing to spend $20K are generally not shrinking violets when it comes to voicing their opinion!

[Greg H.]

Well, the answer is YES.

Yes there is a much greater consistency at the higher level.

and

Yes, there are occasional dogs even at $20K mandolins....there are just a LOT fewer of them (making it FAR greater that the Gilchrist, Nugget, Monteleone, Gibson Master Model etc. will be great)

[allenhopkins]

Well, you hear the same thing about Gibsons, honestly. Of course, the range of what constitutes "good" vs. "mediocre" is probably different for Gibsons, from what it is for Kentuckies. And I've read posts from people saying that even Lloyd Loar F-5's vary in sound and quality. Products built by human hands, even with the aid of machines, are going to have some variation.

I would say the chances of getting an instrument of unacceptably low quality are much smaller when you get into the higher price ranges. A top-rank manufacturer or builder isn't going to let a real poor-quality instrument out the door, and that builder's volume is lower, so he/she can inspect and test each instrument, making adjustments where needed. If the factories that supply Saga Inc. are making 10K mandolins a year, they probably don't have someone playing each one for 30 minutes to make sure it meets their standards.

But two top-end mandolins from any builder will differ somewhat, since any two pieces of wood will be slightly different. Probably the difference won't be such that a player will call one "good" and one "bad," but surely that player may prefer one to the other.

Also, probably there's a pre-conceived notion on the part of most players, that a $10K+ instrument is "good," so they treat its idiosyncrasies as evidence of its uniqueness, rather than as defects.

[MikeEdgerton]

Most high-end builders got that way because they produced a quality product.

[AlanN]

Keep in mind, there are those who have called some Loars dogs.

[foldedpath]

Keep in mind, there are those who have called some Loars dogs.

True, but would they mean dogs in an absolute sense, where they wouldn't even compete with a mass-produced Pac Rim instrument with a plywood top? Or a "a dog among vintage Loar-class instruments," which would still be one heck of a dog?

[JeffD]

either no one is going to complain about a $20K instrument

Not likely. A flight attendant once told me the only thing that whines more than the engines is a first class customer.

[EdHanrahan]

A top-rank manufacturer or builder isn't going to let a real poor-quality instrument out the door ...

Like that scene in "The Red Violin" where... Oh, just see it!

[mandroid]

The Clear Carbon / the Peter Mix Collaboration is bound to be pretty repeatedly consistent..
lots of hand work there, too ..;):popcorn:

[Big Joe]

The most problematic area of higher end mandolins is not the quality of the instrument itself, but the setup. If it is not right, just like on an inexpensive instrument, it will not sound or play its best. I've had the privilege of handling and playing about 2/3 of the Loars made and I have yet to see one that was a dog if it was set up right. Often just a bit of tweaking can make a world of differenece in the sound and playability of a great mandolin. While the effect is the same on a lower priced mandolin, it is more noticeable on a high end mandolin. It is kind of like a very expensive sports car. If it is not tuned properly, it will not perform properly.

[Greg H.]

True, but would they mean dogs in an absolute sense, where they wouldn't even compete with a mass-produced Pac Rim instrument with a plywood top? Or a "a dog among vintage Loar-class instruments," which would still be one heck of a dog?

It would be where you have a decent mandolin....it just doesn't really have the..."IT" that would be expected for $20,000 or $200,000. Those you are now selling instruments for the high end price could make plywood sound better than most, but there are always some better than others.

[Piper]

I play several musical instruments and have hung out on many of these chat boards. I am ever fascinated by the chatter about the best instrument to own. I'll tell you a little story here before I go to bed: went to bagpipe school, yes bagpipe school, several years ago. Some of the guys had the top notch instruments with the silver trim and fancy ferrels and such. They mostly were terrible at the pipes and did not get better. One particular fellow had a used set of no real reputation and he kinda patched them together. Let me tell you, this guy could play the pipes like no other. He really, really learned to play. That was an inspiration to me and has helped me to this day become a better musician. I was tempted recently to acquire another mandolin,but now I have decided I don't need that--I need to become a better mandolin player and one mandolin is all I need. The mandolin I have is of modest cost and was set up properly--so it works for me.

[barry k]

I used to visit horse race tracks a lot some years ago, and what Chuck asked sounds like gamblers syndrome .......they will ALWAYS tell someone how much they won......but NEVER tell how much they lost. If you spend 10, 20, 30 k on a junk mandolin would you shout it about? Some folks would, most would not.

[Gerard Dick]

JMHO but I believe that a builder of high end instruments would not want to risk tarnishing his/her reputation by allowing a "dog" out of the shop. Salvaging the neck and sending the rest up the chimney would make better sense.

[barry k]

I would respond that even builders have subjective and bias opinons of what sounds good and what doesnt. Every single instrument out of a builders shop WILL NOT sound or play exactly the same even if CNC'd ........close but not exact. Please keep in mind we are human too , and flawed to perfection.

[Charlieshafer]

Not only are builders human, but wood is organic. No matter how much time is lavished on a particular top or complete instrument, the variations in grain, density, hardness, etc, from one log to the next will give each instrument a unique sound, even if by only a small amount. I'm fascinated by the experiment Torres did on his classical guitars years ago where he used premium wood for the top, and papier mache for the back and sides. Supposedly it sounded beautiful.

[Bob A]

I understand that the Torres papier mache body was also used to experiment with varying top bracing patterns etc.

[Charlieshafer]

I understand that the Torres papier mache body was also used to experiment with varying top bracing patterns etc.

That made me curious, so I went back to a book I hadn't read in a while, by Jose Romanillos: "Antonio de Torres Guitar Maker, His Life and Work" I'm going to go all tedious and scholarly here as I'm going to quote it, so to be perfectly ethical and legal, it's a 1987 copyright, printed by Element Books Ltd. Here goes, from page 65:

"At least eight types of wood are known to have been used by Torres and also an experimental guitar made out of papier mache. This papier mache guitar was made to prove Torres' belief that the soundboard was the fundamental part of the guitar responsible for the overall sound-quality of the guitar. No written evidence by him exists as to his true intentions in making this instrument but it can be safely assumed, and this is supported by Pujol, that Torres wnated to prove his theory that the woods used for the back and ribs of the instrument did not contribute much towards the tone of the guitar."

Torres was apparently a really secretive guy, so who knows. But the Romanillos book is a great read for luthiers of any stringed instruments. Grab a copy if you can find one.