Tru Oil or No?

[Jim Baker]

I tried to search the forum for posts on using tru oil but got no hits. I'd like to hear from anyone who's finished with tru oil and hear opinions as to it's viability as an instrument finish. Maybe a picture if possible.
My last build I used shellac and intended on french polishing. Turned out I couldn't make it work. Seems it relies on very specific solvent to make it work properly and I can't buy it here.
I'm not set up to spray laquer. I don't really want to use urethane.

Is tru oil really an option? I don't mind a lot of labour.

Thanks

[wwwilkie]

I had the same trouble when I moved to Canada, no denatured alcohol. I found 99% Isopropyl alcohol at my local pharmacy and it works great. Only takes a bit longer to dissolve the shellac flakes. Can't comment on Tru oil.

[EarlG]

Tru oil yes. There is a long thread on this but it might be hard to find. Tru oil is easy to use and great looking for any woodworking.

[buddyellis]

Here's a few. One notable shop, Ellis Mandolins, I am pretty sure uses Tru Oil.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?4793-Tru-Oil-vs-Deft-vs-Shellac
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?12912-Tru-Oil-amp-Sunburst
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?23804-Finishing-steps-from-in-the-white-to-Tru-Oil
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?55784-Tru-oil-gun-stock-finish
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?33679-Tru-oil

[Jim Baker]

wwwilkie: Did you french polish with it?

EarlG: Can you get a shine with tru oil?

[wwwilkie]

Yes, once the shellac is dissolved it works beautifully. Just don't make the same mistake I did and mix it in a container with a metal lid. A chemical reaction occurs which prevents the shellac from drying.

[EarlG]

I have never tried for a shine with tru oil. I have applied it and hand buffed to something a little shinier than a satin finish.

It does not take long to learn to make a nice finish with tru oil. Buy a small bottle in the Walmart sporting good section and give it a try.

Test on scraps or buy a piece to test on if you need to. Testing on finish is well worth the effort.

[Magnus Geijer]

I'm a big fan of tru-oil. Out of these, the brown, the red and the guitar were all done with nothing but tru-oil, and the white was topcoated with it. It's easy to work with, very forgiving and touch-uppable, decentely non-toxic and can be brought to a high shine. It also gives a slight golden glow, which is great on the reds and bursts, but also the reason why I didn't use it on the blue. I used it straight from the bottle, no thinner.

/Magnus

[RJinRI]

here's an IV kit completed in dec. 2005 with TruOil


My scratch #1 f style will also be finished with truoil ....someday....

[Tavy]

It's a little tedious to build up, but yes it's a good option, especially for the first build.

The only thing I would say, is that using shellac as a sanding sealer beneath the tru oil really helps (but isn't absolutely essential). You could buy a commercial ready mixed sanding sealer for this I guess.

Re disolving shellac - can you get "methylated spirits" over there? That's what we have to use here in the UK - it's a mix of methanol and ethanol I believe along with a blue dye and some pyridine to make it undrinkable (smells discusting too!). Seems to work OK, and there's no hint of the dye showing up in the finish (I guess it evaporates with the alcohol, but can't find any reference to what they actually use).

I'm attaching some images below - the waldzither was my first restoration and used Tru Oil, while the bowlback is my latest and was french polished using amber shellac and "meths" as solvent.

HTH, John.

[Rob Grant]

I also use methylated spirits or what we call "metho" (Oz speak) to dissolve my shellac. The stuff is suppose to be pretty toxic and can be absorbed through the skin. It's a good idea if you use metho to work in a well ventilated space and wear rubber gloves. It should be freely availiable at hardware stores and even supermarkets. In places where metho is used as an alcohol beverage replacement (very dangerous by the way), you may find its sale restricted.

[Jim Baker]

Thanks everyone. Very good information.

[barrangatan]

Luthier Dave Hynds uses Tru-Oil on a lot of his restoration projects, and he has a good instructional write-up here:

http://www.mandolinluthier.com/Hfinish-tru-oil.htm

[Paul Hostetter]

I had the same trouble when I moved to Canada, no denatured alcohol. I found 99% Isopropyl alcohol at my local pharmacy and it works great. Only takes a bit longer to dissolve the shellac flakes. Can't comment on Tru oil.

Shellac (French polish) thins with alcohol, and is quite unrelated to Tru-Oil, which thins with mineral spirits, turpentine, etc.

There have been numerous threads about which alcohol to use with shellac, and I would say that isopropyl is the least desirable of them: it's toxic, and contains way too much water. Methyl alcohol is also "denatured"—a weird word choice meaning it's ethyl alcohol that has been deliberately toxified to prevent people from drinking it. The health risks aren't worth it, for working with French polish or brushed shellac. What you need is ethyl alcohol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_alcohol), which is 190 proof (or better) drinkable alcohol. In some provinces, you can buy this in government Liquor Control Board stores under brands such as Everclear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everclear_(alcohol)) and bottled items sometimes called rectified spirits. Or get it through scientific labs. The 151 formulations are pretty watery. 190 is way better.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Spirytus_rektyfikowany.jpg/800px-Spirytus_rektyfikowany.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/d2/EverclearHiRes.jpg/250px-EverclearHiRes.jpg

Tru-Oil is a nice oil varnish. You can build it and rub it out to a nice shine. Works best on non-porous woods, but can be made to work on almost anything. It was originally developed for gunstocks and the like.

[Jim Baker]

Thanks guys.

"SPRITUS REKTYFIKWANI" ???????

[ardbeg]

HI
Don't know if anyone else has mentioned it, but I have found that finishing with Micromesh before applying the Tru Oil really helps. Some would say it's laborious, but I actually enjoy it. There is a useful article from a woodworking magazine, that Lutherie Supplies here in the UK send out with Tru Oil, that gives a fairly detailed description of the process.
Cheers

[buddyellis]

Methyl alcohol is also "denatured"—a weird word choice meaning it's ethyl alcohol that has been deliberately toxified to prevent people from drinking it.


I used to think so, too, but 'denatured' alcohols are usually not even much ETHYL alcohol. Here is MSDS for a common 'Denatured' Alcohol (http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat2/MSDS/MSDS%20-%20Crown.pdf) that is available (Lowes Home Improvement, for example). I use this stuff (or I guess, at this point USED to use it as I have a whole gallon of it that I'm probably not going to touch again without gloves):

CONTAINS: 65-75% METHANOL (67-56-1)[200-659-6],
20-30% ETHANOL (64-17-5)[200-578-6],
< 10% ISOPROPANOL (67-63-0)[200-661-7],
< 10% METHYL ISOBUTYL KETONE (108-10-1)[203-550-1]


Highly HIGHLY recommend the above suggestion by Paul to use Everclear or some other neutral grain spirit. I can't believe I've been bathing my hands in this #### doing FP for several years. I assumed it was mostly Ethanol, but its not anything of the sort.

[HoGo]

Thanks guys.

"SPRITUS REKTYFIKWANI" ???????

That's "rectified spirits" in Polish language. I guess that's the best one for French Polish, especially when smuggled from Poland via French airlines :)

BTW, formulations of denatured alcohol may vary greatly. I used to use denatured alcohol that contained 80+% ethanol and the rest was methanol or MEK with isopropanol. Two years ago they changed formulation to something like 60% ethanol and rest was s**t so I switched to pharmacy supplied "spiritus cum benzino" which is 95+% ethanol with touch of benzene (or is it naphtha?) to make it undrinkable. I live in Europe so you probably won't find similar products but you can ask around. Pure ethanol is also available from lab supplies but expensive as hell.

[Paul Hostetter]

My French luthier friends buy 10 liter tins of pure ethanol for around 15 euros. California only allows 151 proof ethanol, so I have to buy mine in Oregon. It's even cheaper in Mexico, but I'm in Oregon fairly often, or its emissaries come here, and I'm never in Mexico.

Still, there's this:

http://www.brokersgin.com/images/aboutimg3.jpg

I once refinished a wooden chest with Watco by actually wet sanding using the Watco as the liquid. What that meant was that the resulting "dust" became a slurry which filled the pores as I wet-sanded. It really worked nicely.

Every once in awhile some fashion victim wants the finish removed from their mandolin neck, and I've used that same wet-sanding technique with Tru-Oil, and it's also worked really well. Watco and Tru-Oil aren't that different, actually. Tru-Oil smells a lot nicer though.

[Tavy]

I used to think so, too, but 'denatured' alcohols are usually not even much ETHYL alcohol. Here is MSDS for a common 'Denatured' Alcohol (http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat2/MSDS/MSDS%20-%20Crown.pdf) that is available (Lowes Home Improvement, for example). I use this stuff (or I guess, at this point USED to use it as I have a whole gallon of it that I'm probably not going to touch again without gloves):

CONTAINS: 65-75% METHANOL (67-56-1)[200-659-6],
20-30% ETHANOL (64-17-5)[200-578-6],
< 10% ISOPROPANOL (67-63-0)[200-661-7],
< 10% METHYL ISOBUTYL KETONE (108-10-1)[203-550-1]


Highly HIGHLY recommend the above suggestion by Paul to use Everclear or some other neutral grain spirit. I can't believe I've been bathing my hands in this #### doing FP for several years. I assumed it was mostly Ethanol, but its not anything of the sort.

I wouldn't worry too much about getting that on your hands - you certainly wouldn't want to make a habit of drink it (blindness, insanity and death, usually in that order!) - but as an ex lab chemist we used to throw most solvents (though not all) around with impunity - generally speaking methanol is the least of your worries in a workshop full of power tools!

That said, I have invested in a crazy large pack of disposable gloves, mainly to reduce clearing up time - I got fed up with 10 minute FP sessions that took longer that that to clear up from afterwards!

Cheers, John.

[David Newton]

Love how this tru-oil thread has turned into an alcohol thread.

The best advice I picked up, about finishing with Tru-oil, which I used on a couple of mandolins, but have gravitated to shellac, is this: gloss of the final Tru-oil finish is determined by how smooth the wood surface is, in other words, work down to the finest grit possible. I "burnished" the wood surface with 0000 steel wool to get a good gloss with tru-oil.

[big smiley guy]

I haven't used Tru Oil in a while but the last time I did I seem to recall that I used shellac as a sealer coat then burnished it back with 0000 steel wool. Then for the first few coats I used thinned Tru Oil and almost as a spit coat, french polish. Then I was able to build up coats afterwards using unthinned Tru Oil. I was finishing on a walnut solidbody bass and I went with the shellac because when I tested the Tru on the walnut it really raised the grain quite a bit.

As for alcohol many woodworking stores will sell denatured alcohol that is specifically made for french polishers that doens't have some of the additives found in the Lowes/Home Depot stuff.

[Jim Baker]

O.k., let's see if I remember all the tips: Sand very smooth, use a sealer, and keep a bottle of everclear near by just in case. ;)

But seriously, thanks everyone for sharing. There's lots of good information here. I think I'll do this one in tru oil. Perhaps it's most important to seal the spruce so that it doesn't soak up much oil. The maple should be o.k. I'd think. Should likely seal the walnut too.

[Magnus Geijer]

Sanded to 800 grit, stain on raw wood, no sealer.

/Magnus

[Magnus Geijer]

And sanded to 320 grit, stain on raw wood, no sealer.

I should mention that I've taken a piece of spruce and a piece of maple and cut them apart after finishing with truoil, and there's no visible indication of the finish penetrating into the wood. Also, these two are probably the best sounding mandoilns I've built.

/Magnus

[Jim Baker]

Sounding better all the time. Maybe no need for the Everclear. ;)

[Paul Hostetter]

I don't see why. Tru-Oil has always been thought of as a simple, reliable finish needing no undercoat. Maple and spruce aren't particularly open-grained the way, say, walnut and mahogany are. And I've seen plenty of walnut (gunstocks) done with just Tru-Oil and it still looks great. There are other oil-based varnishes that will give equally good results, but that one's easily accessible and quite reliable.

[Jim Baker]

Tru Oil is available at walmart in a spray can. Would that work as well?

[Paul Hostetter]

Oh dear. No.

[Jim Baker]

Good I asked the question. I was tempted to buy some to try it. Thanks Paul.

[fishtownmike]

Talking about the pure grain alcohol you have to special order it through the state liquor control board special order and you have to sign liability papers when you pick it up. I work for the PLCB. It's do to the fact that there has been a few alcohol related poisonings at some frat parties. As a youth myself we used to have these jungle juice parties but we always made sure to use enough juice to dilute the grain. If i need a bottle now I just take a ride to Jersey or Delaware. It's a lot easier then going through the ordering process.

[David Newton]

Since we're talking about Tru-oil, I used to buy "Diesel" brand liquor-store alcohol, slightly cheaper than Everclear brand, but still $15 a quart.

There is a notion out there that you can drink it. Please don't. I was quietly french polishing a guitar and thought "wonder what it tastes like?" An hour later I'm still coughing and drinking milk trying to reverse the effects.

[Paul Hostetter]

Jeez, you almost won the Darwin Award today! 190 proof hooch is not for beginners!

[Mike Snyder]

Y'all come to Winfield in September. I'll make you and everclear screwdriver and you can go home with as much as you want.

[Jim Baker]

Still have not found a source for tru oil in Canada. LMI will not ship outside the U.S..

I see on the Lee Valley web site, they have a product called "French Polish". Supposed to be based on shellac and can be used for finishing as french polish but comes in a bottle.

[wsugai]

I don't see why. Tru-Oil has always been thought of as a simple, reliable finish needing no undercoat. Maple and spruce aren't particularly open-grained the way, say, walnut and mahogany are. And I've seen plenty of walnut (gunstocks) done with just Tru-Oil and it still looks great. There are other oil-based varnishes that will give equally good results, but that one's easily accessible and quite reliable.

My recollection of Tru-Oil is that it is a boiled linseed oil formulation with additives to catalyze a very thin and durable surface layer. The additives also helped in curing, which can be a problem with a boiled linseed oil base. In addition to durability, Tru-Oil can be touched up easily, which might be its single most important feature. As a measure of durabiltiy, it can withstand cartridge primer residue, which is especially corrosive.

I've read where the best application method was just rubbing Tru-Oil into well-sanded wood by hand because the warmth caused by the friction of skin against wood opened the pores of the wood just enough to allow the correct level of absorption (could be a fairy tale, but it sure sounds nice!). In my opinion, the finest Tru-Oil finishes were a very light satin, produced by a very controlled final rubbing of rottenstone. Personally, I hate that glossy finish like on my A5G -- looks real cheap compared to a correctly hand-rubbed satin finish.

[Kyle Baker]

tru oil should be available at most hunting supply stores since it is a common product for re-finishing gun stocks.

[Kshot]

Late as ever, but in my experience Tru oil is very easy, very forgiving, and each coat is very thin so it will take quite a few if you want a glossy finish. I usually seal with shellac first then apply coats of tru oil gently leveling the surface with 0000 steel wool every 4 or 5 coats. Folks usually wipe it on but I've also gotten good results spraying it diluted ~50/50 with naptha. Note that it does take longer to dry diluted.

Good luck,
Keith

[jim simpson]

I got mine in the gun department at my local Cabella's.

[PJ Doland]

I used Tru-Oil on the body of a solidbody electric I built a few years ago. The stuff is very easy and almost idiot-proof.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4033387/klein-replica.jpg

[P Josey]

The Shellac/Lacquer Thinner sold by Lee Valley is great for mixing shellac.

[RJinRI]

Still have not found a source for tru oil in Canada. LMI will not ship outside the U.S..

I see on the Lee Valley web site, they have a product called "French Polish". Supposed to be based on shellac and can be used for finishing as french polish but comes in a bottle.

i get mine here & pricing is better than at local retailer:

http://www.birchwoodcasey.com/sport/wood_index.asp?categoryID=5&subcat=11

[Paul Hostetter]

Cabelas in Canada (https://www.cabelas.ca/index.cfm?pageID=71&section=1187&section2=1286&ID=372) carries it. It can't be shipped from the US to Canada, but it's available in Canada.

[Jim Baker]

The nearest Cabelas in Canada that I know of is in western Canada. I've seen tru oil advertised for gun stock touchups but only in small bottles. Not nearly enough for an instrument. I chequed two Walmarts today in the Niagara region and neither carried it in any form. I'm hoping that the Bass Pro store north of Toronto will have it. I'll pass by there tomorrow.

[Jim Baker]

Just checked Cabelas web site. They do list tru oil in a 3 oz. bottle for $7.99. Where can I buy the sealer?

[Steevarino]

I just ordered an 8 oz. bottle on eBay for close to that price. Just search "Tru-Oil" and you get quite a few options.

A question or two I have... how do you deal with staining or sunbursting, and using Tru-Oil? I have an order for a reso. guitar to be finished this way. I am wondering what type(s) of stain might be compatible with Tru-Oil? Also, since the wood type is quilted mahogany, should I grain fill? Does Tru-Oil cohabitate well with grain fillers?

Thanks!

[Paul Hostetter]

Just checked Cabelas web site. They do list tru oil in a 3 oz. bottle for $7.99. Where can I buy the sealer?

You don't need sealer. It is its own sealer. Follow the directions, they're pretty clear. If you had really open grain, you could use an oil-based paste filler I suppose, although it might mess with the drying of the Tru-Oil.

Never thought of combining Tru-Oil or any padded oil varnish with a sunburst. No experience there.

[big smiley guy]

If you use 0000 steel wool between coats it fills the pores nicely much like pumicing a french polish.

[Bob Laughlin]

i use tru-oil on all my instrument necks; guitar, bouzoukis, mandolins - about 6-8 coats - i spray gloss lacquer on the head only to match the rest of the lacquer finish on the instrument - i've never had a problem with tru-oil reacting with sweat like many lacquers do on necks - and it never seems to wear thru to raw wood even though it is a very very thin coating - it sheens up real good and makes for a more natural feel on a neck - a coat of tree wax over it makes for a fast slippery neck but is not really necessary

i have done a few instruments all in tru-oil, the last time because the client requested a flat finish - even after multi-coats i could never get it to build much - it also magnifies the tiniest imperfection, sanding scratch or post finishing dent - here's a mandolin with an all-tru-oil finish http://laughlinguitars.ca/M8/ - but as i said i prefer lacquer on the body for added protection and its glossy appeal

[Jim Baker]

Thanks Bob. So, you use tru oil on necks only. I read something recently where birtchwood casey doesn't recommend tru oil for spruce tops but does for everthing else. I'll have to see if I can find that again.
Your mandolin looks pretty awesome. Did you use any sort of sealer on the spruce under the tru oil?

[Jim Baker]

Birtchwood Casey will not ship to Canada either. That's free trade for you.

[Bob Laughlin]

i'd be very interested in what birchwood casey had to say about their finish if you can find that article jim

i don't use any sealer under tru-oil - its pretty thick and quick drying - i doubt if much soaks in

[Bob Laughlin]

Birtchwood Casey will not ship to Canada either. That's free trade for you.

any gun store should sell it in canada - and they have a new mid-size bottle, about 8oz

[Jim Baker]

Cabellas shows 3 oz. bottles on their site. The Bass Pro shop doesn't show anything. Apparently it's available from Gagnon Sports in Oshawa but I don't know what sizes. I've emailed them.

[Jim Baker]

i'd be very interested in what birchwood casey had to say about their finish if you can find that article jim

i don't use any sealer under tru-oil - its pretty thick and quick drying - i doubt if much soaks in

I've emailed them to see if they have any literature.

[David Newton]

Unless you are really doing a lot of Tru-oil, get the smallest size bottle. Once it's open and you have a part-bottle, it goes thick/hard pretty fast, unless you do the bloxigen, or put marbles to raise the level. I've stored the part bottle upside down, and that worked for a while. One small bottle will do several instruments if they are done together. Can't see the need for a lot at once.

[bennyb]

Ditto what David said. I bought the 8 oz. bottle, finished two instruments, and had a WHOLE lot left over, which I stored upside down, but finally chucked out after a couple years as unreliable. I'm sure I'll use it again, but might decant off into 2 oz. containers if I get the 8 oz. next time.

benny

[resophil]

i'd be very interested in what birchwood casey had to say about their finish if you can find that article jim

i don't use any sealer under tru-oil - its pretty thick and quick drying - i doubt if much soaks in

Here's the WHMIS sheet on Tru - Oil (as far as composition goes...):

3. COMPOSITION / INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS

Description CAS # Weight %
Mineral Spirits 8052-41-3 > 56
Modified Oil Proprietary < 33
Linseed Oil Proprietary < 11

This is straight from Birchwood-Casey's site. http://www.birchwoodcasey.com/sport/msdspdfs/23035-TO8.pdf

In the mad rush to extol the virtues of Tru-Oil as an instrument finish, let's not forget the fact that more than 56% of what you're putting on to the instrument is solvent, in the form of mineral spirits...

"...i doubt if much soaks in..." Really??? It's made to soak in! That's why there's so much solvent in it! It's made to soak into much harder wood and closed-pored wood than spruce or mahogany. Most gunstocks are made of walnut, and that's what this product was developed for! You bet your boots it soaks in!

Oil finishes, by their very nature, are much easier to apply than lacquers or varnishes. This puts them well within the reach of the average joe who wants to try his hand at wood finishing, but that doesn't make them automatically the best finish for the job. Slopping all that solvent onto the soundboard of my instrumet is NOT something I want to do! I wouldn't go near the stuff as an instrument finish, except maybe for a neck...

[Jim Baker]

:confused:

[big smiley guy]

Oil finishes, by their very nature, are much easier to apply than lacquers or varnishes.

Both lacquers and varnishes (and pretty much any finish other than powder coating) are mostly solvent and most are solvents that are much more harsh than mineral spirits. "Varnish" is a bit of a catch-all phrase but in general instrument varnishes are some sort of polymerized oil (synthetic, natural or a combination of several) with a solvent. I think it's fair to categorize Tru Oil as a type of varnish. I also feel that it's a good, durable DIY finish and, as with pretty much any finish, if it's kept thin the sound of the instrument will not suffer.

[Jim Baker]

From what I've learned so far, I don't think I'd hesitate to finish all but the top with tru oil. I don't think the jury is in on that one yet.
I'm leaning toward french polish shellac for the top assuming I can find suitable alchohol. Sourcing suitable materials is a real problem in Canada.

I might even consider rattle can laquer if I could find that. You'd think we were living in a third world country. :(

[Pete Brown]

From what I've learned so far, I don't think I'd hesitate to finish all but the top with tru oil. I don't think the jury is in on that one yet.
I'm leaning toward french polish shellac for the top assuming I can find suitable alchohol. Sourcing suitable materials is a real problem in Canada.

I might even consider rattle can laquer if I could find that. You'd think we were living in a third world country. :(

I wish I was able to find the link which discusses some tests done on penetration of Tru-Oil into softwood tops. I can't locate it, but the gist was that there's very little penetration if it's applied correctly.

The old LMI catalog discussed Tru-Oil's use as an open pore finish; the secret to success was adequate wood preparation, i.e., sanding to 1000 or 1200 grit, and rubbing off as much as you could immediately after application. With such an approach, it's hard to imagine that the initial coats would have a chance to penetrate. Reason would suggest then that the first coats would act as a sealer and that subsequent coats would sit on top of them. I wouldn't hesitate to use it on an instrument top, despite the fact that it offers little protection from wear and tear. That said, it's a finish that's easily repaired.

[Bob Laughlin]

Ditto what David said. I bought the 8 oz. bottle, finished two instruments, and had a WHOLE lot left over, which I stored upside down, but finally chucked out after a couple years as unreliable. I'm sure I'll use it again, but might decant off into 2 oz. containers if I get the 8 oz. next time.
benny

those liquor mini-bar bottles work well for that - fill em to the brim and they'll last forever - i store the one in use upside down to keep the scum on the bottom

[Bob Laughlin]

I wish I was able to find the link which discusses some tests done on penetration of Tru-Oil into softwood tops. I can't locate it, but the gist was that there's very little penetration if it's applied correctly.


thats been my experience - in any case i have'nt noticed any degradation in sound over my lacquered top mandolins - perhaps even a bit livelier with tru-oil

[GarY Nava]

I use both French polish and Tru-Oil. On the last instrument that I oiled, this baritone uke, I applied the Tru-oil with a pad as though I was French polishing. This way I managed to apply a number of very thin coats which only need a light sand with very fine micro mesh between coats. After a week I used 0000 steel wire and bees wax.
Cheers Gary
www.navguitars.co.uk

[big smiley guy]

Very nice uke - I've got a couple of Tenors and a Concert in the works.

[David Newton]

The only finish that doesn't soak into the wood is no finish.
Tru-oil has proven to be an excellent instrument finish for many years now. The point is for a builder to pick a finish that suits his situation, and learn to apply it well.

[Jim Baker]

I finally found some tru oil at a local gun show. No excuse now.

[Flattpicker]

Tru-oil is amazingly easy to work with and to achieve good results with.

They make their own sealer, available in a similar bottle.

On the down side, a luthier recently told me that Tru-Oil contains some additives which can be harmful to humans. He said that in California Tru-oil has to be sold without these additives. Does anyone else know anything about this?

[Paul Hostetter]

No reference to CA that I could find, but you can look for yourself here: http://www.birchwoodcasey.com/sport/msds.asp (Interesting that they list Tru-Oil in gallons!)

If it's not in the MSDSs, it's not fact.

The state of California, however, requires that anything like Tru-Oil (a staggering list that includes lots of things you find everywhere from gas stations to gun shops to grocery stores) carry the ubiquitous Prop 65 warning:

California Proposition 65

Attention California Residents:
California's Proposition 65 entitles California consumers to special warnings for products that contain chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm if those products expose consumers to such chemicals above certain threshold levels. We care about our customers' safety and hope that the information below helps with your buying decisions.
The general Proposition 65 notice is as follows:

WARNING: This product contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm.

In addition, there are specific warnings for the following specific products:

* Tools
* Electrical Cords
* Buffing Compounds & Finishing Products

Tools
California requires the following notice:
WARNING: Some dust created by power sanding, sawing, grinding, drilling, and other construction activities contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. Some examples of these chemicals are:

* lead from lead-based paints,
* crystalline silica from bricks and cement and other masonry products, and
* arsenic and chromium from chemically treated lumber.

Your risk from exposure to these chemicals varies, depending on how often you do this type of work. To reduce your exposure, work in a well-ventilated area and with approved safety equipment, such as dust masks that are specially designed to filter out microscopic particles.

Electrical Cords
California requires the following notice:
WARNING: The wires of this product contains chemicals known to the State of California to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm. Wash hands after handling.

Buffing Compounds & Finishing Products
California requires the following notice on buffing compounds & finishing products that contain progesterone:
WARNING: This product may contain progesterone, a chemical known to the State of California to cause cancer. Consult with your physician before using this product.

Tru-Oil carries a Prop 65 warning.

[Flattpicker]

Thanks, Paul.

I found this (below) on side effects of progesterone. The only side effect I recall was the onset of anger when I would finish a coating session and then noticed that I had "missed a spot."

Progesterone Oil
All medicines may cause side effects, but many people have no, or minor, side effects. Check with your doctor if any of these most COMMON side effects persist or become bothersome when using Progesterone Oil:

Acne; drowsiness; nausea; pain, redness, and swelling at injection site; trouble sleeping; weakness.

Seek medical attention right away if any of these SEVERE side effects occur when using Progesterone Oil:
Severe allergic reactions (rash; hives; itching; difficulty breathing; tightness in the chest; swelling of the mouth, face, lips, throat, or tongue); breast pain or tenderness; calf or leg pain or swelling; changes in menstrual flow, including breakthrough bleeding, spotting, or missed periods; chest pain; coughing up blood; fast or irregular heartbeat; fever; flushing; lumps in the breast; mental or mood changes (eg, anxiety, depression); seizures; severe dizziness or fainting; severe stomach pain; shortness of breath; slurred speech; sudden loss of coordination; sudden or severe headache or vomiting; swelling of fingers or ankles; unusual weight gain or loss; vision problems (eg, double vision, partial or complete loss of vision); weakness, numbness, or pain in the arms or legs; yellowing of the skin or eyes.

[Jim Baker]

Progesterone:disbelief:

I have a few of those symtoms already.

[Bob Laughlin]

Progesterone:disbelief:
I have a few of those symtoms already.

hey jim - could'nt figure out how to send you a private post - i just noticed you're from merrickville ON - i'm a 5-generations ottawa valley boy myself - kinburn, woodlawn, carp - i often go thru merrickville to visit relatives in perth whenever i'm back - beautiful little town - i've been in vancouver for more than 30 years now

[Jim Baker]

Hey Bob! Small world. I work in Perth. Merrickville has become a swarming tourist trap. There was a time when you could drive through on a weekend without stopping to avoid pedestrians. Not any more.:))

[RJinRI]

My scratch #1 f style will also be finished with truoil ....someday....

someday , recently arrived:

[Jim Baker]

Sweet!

[Gerard Dick]

Try Lee Valley tools. They have a store in Ottawa. All kinds of products for wood finishing there.

[Bigd18]

My Everclear comes in a mason jar.:whistling:

[Vladimir Seleznev]

Quite an interesting discussion. Still have doubts on using oil on porous wood. I tried oil on walnut and... pores sill open after 12 layers of oil. (may be this is not enough?) It's not so bad btw. But I am sure if someone wish to have smooth surface - pore filler is the only choice.
I also have doubts on shellac sealer under oil. In all books on topic it is said that shellac over oil will not stick. Why oil should stick over shellac?
Have somebody tried BIRCHWOOD CASEY Gun Stock Sealer & Filler?

[Paul Hostetter]

Quite an interesting discussion. Still have doubts on using oil on porous wood. I tried oil on walnut and... pores sill open after 12 layers of oil. (may be this is not enough?) It's not so bad btw. But I am sure if someone wish to have smooth surface - pore filler is the only choice.

Since you have no direct experience with this particular product, and many of us have actually used it and know the results, perhaps you could consider that your logical assumptions might not match reality? I'll accept reality any day.


I also have doubts on shellac sealer under oil. In all books on topic it is said that shellac over oil will not stick. Why oil should stick over shellac?

You're welcome to doubt it, but it's quite well-known and widely accepted and believed on the basis of actual experience that shellac will go over anything, and will act as a sealer. That's the primary reason it is sold. You don't need a book to tell you one thing when actual experience leads you to other conclusions.


Have somebody tried BIRCHWOOD CASEY Gun Stock Sealer & Filler?

I have, and found it unnecessary, with walnut and so on, and not particularly good in any case. I prefer other sealers in certain instances. But I have had good luck, as I said earlier in the thread, with just applying Tru-Oil direct and getting acceptable grain filling. No sealers, not many coats, just follow the directions.

[Soundfarmer Pete]

Not sure about shellac as a base for Tru-Oil but based on experience, I would never top shellac with cellulose - ARGGHHHH!
I made the awful mistake of spraying a lovely sunburst using violin spirit varnish then tried a cellulose clear over the top. The cellulose contracted and the whole thing ended up looking like crazy paving ..........DOH!:(

[Jim Baker]

Someone, perhaps in this thread suggested that, if you wet sand tru oil and allow the slurry to fill pores, then coat over, it does a good job.
Any one else try this? I have walnut binding and heel cap to do and would like to fill the grain without having to order special grain filler.

[Bob Laughlin]

in my experience Tru-Oil does a poor job of filling pores no matter how many coats, although i have no doubt the pores are sealed properly - this is not a problem for me because i've never filled pores, under any finish - with lacquer ithe finish is glass smooth up to buffing and shortly afterwards the pores show up, and show up more with time, even with maple and of course exaggeratedly so with other woods like rosewood - i like the look, the texture, it's wood - i've had a few people tell me they didn't but they can buy somebody elses instruments

if you must fill the pores with Tru-Oil a slurry might work, like pumice and shellac

i've used Tru-Oil (1 or 2 coats only) under water-based lacquer (KTM-9) to bring out the grain - it has'nt been a problem if it's dried thoroughly - a couple of days in a dry warm area

[fishtownmike]

Not sure about shellac as a base for Tru-Oil but based on experience, I would never top shellac with cellulose - ARGGHHHH!
I made the awful mistake of spraying a lovely sunburst using violin spirit varnish then tried a cellulose clear over the top. The cellulose contracted and the whole thing ended up looking like crazy paving ..........DOH!:(

Your problem was not really the shellac it was what type you used. Dewaxed shellac works fine under lacquer. Waxed shellac with a lacquer topcoat is one of the methods to achieve a crackle finish that some desire for some projects....Mike

[Soundfarmer Pete]

Your problem was not really the shellac it was what type you used. Dewaxed shellac works fine under lacquer. Waxed shellac with a lacquer topcoat is one of the methods to achieve a crackle finish that some desire for some projects....Mike
Thanks Mike,
If I ever decide (still pondering) to make a fake "road worn" I`ll bear that in mind (but knowing my luck, the cellulose will stick perfectly :-)
CheeryBye

[polkat]

My last few violins I finished with vernice bianca only as the sealer/ground/everything, and finished with tru-oil. Not trad of course, but I loved the way they looked and sounded. I am contemplating trying this exact finish on an old cheapo Washburn mando I have.

[Jim Baker]

For those interested, I've done a comparison between shellac and tru oil on spruce. There is a marked difference in the look of the grain. Tru oil seems to magnify the grain. It is certainly different but I'm not sure if I like it.


http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q221/Jimb3893/IMG_0174.jpg



Tru oil is on the bottom

[Soundfarmer Pete]

Another ARGHHHH!
Did a body with TruOil - looking sweet so thought I`d finish it with beeswax polish (well...Warwicks do something similar...)
Polish was a homebrew beeswax furniture polish, the main oil being turpentine with just a hint of aromatherapy.....rubbed it on, gave it a buffing and ended up with a horrid patchy finish back down to the wood.

Hmmmmm...........more TruOil time :-(

Presumably, the solvents that Warwick use in their oil finishes and polish don`t affect each other!
(not so) Cheery Bye!

[Paul Hostetter]

You went too fast. You also probably should have skipped the aromatherapy part, as that fragrance may have been more destructive to the tender film of varnish than the rank and file petroleum distillates in the wax. I think you should let a good oil varnish dry for weeks before slathering anything else on it.

[Jim Baker]

I did a test piece of spruce top wood with tru oil. It built up nicely and produced a lovely shine just wiping it on. Trouble is it has been over a week since the last application and it still marks easily with a fingernail. Not sure it will ever dry hard.

[Paul Hostetter]

Oil varnishes take a long time to dry—that's why many people prefer lacquer or shellac: they dry fast. When you've put oil way down into the grain of the wood, it takes awhile for the volatile parts to gas off, so to speak, either by wicking up through the surface or going out the inside of the wood. One thing that helps is to wait longer between coats, too. More thinner coats go quicker than a thick layer.

[big smiley guy]

For those interested, I've done a comparison between shellac and tru oil on spruce. There is a marked difference in the look of the grain. Tru oil seems to magnify the grain. It is certainly different but I'm not sure if I like it.
http://i137.photobucket.com/albums/q221/Jimb3893/IMG_0174.jpg
Tru oil is on the bottom

Oils will "pop" the grain which is nice on figured woods like maple, walnut or any curly wood.

[polkat]

How about coloring Tru-Oil? I've been able to tint it using artist oils dissolved in turps, then added to the tru-oil. But I'd like to darken it some. I've used roofing or road tar dissolved in turps to darken standard varnishes, but would this technique work with tru-oil?

[RJinRI]

my #2, oregon myrtle back, sides & neck, adirondack spruce top...no stain...only truoil...just a few more coats needed on soundboard

[Jim Baker]

I'll be interested to hear what you think of tru oil in terms of hardness and durability when it is finished. Thanks

[RJinRI]

it will most likely never be as hard as other available finishes and the other mando i have ( also tru-oiled ), does pick up the occassional nail scratch...but its so easy to repair

[bratsche]

it will most likely never be as hard as other available finishes and the other mando i have ( also tru-oiled ), does pick up the occassional nail scratch...but its so easy to repair

And it's easy to use to repair existing varnish finishes. Speaking of nail scratches, when I got my beautiful viola that is my main player (it was also my first eBay purchase), it was evident that some former hack owner with too-long fingernails had had the annoying habit of holding it secured in his/her lap by the fingerboard, leaving an unsightly line of fingernail gouges alongside it. No mere scratches - this almost went down to the wood, which is why it looked habitual. But Tru-Oil handily took care of the problem, and you really have to look hard to see the retouch job. I wouldn't be without the stuff - it's a varnish saver!

bratsche

[RJinRI]

adirondack spruce top...no stain...only truoil...just a few more coats needed on soundboard

time to learn to play it, now !

http://picasaweb.google.com/rj7388/2FMandoBuild#

[David Newton]

RJ, that's beautiful.
Goes to show there are many ways to finish an instrument, and Tru-oil is a good one.

[Arnt]

True oil also works fine as a "topping" over other oil varnishes, to smooth things out, and help get rid of witness lines, if you have those. Here's a knotty birch mandola that has true oil over Epifanes varnish.

[Jim Baker]

Arnt: Do you know if tru oil will adhere to polyurethane?

[Arnt]

I haven't tried it, I guess its one of those test-on-scrap questions... If it adheres, and doesn't violate the "fat over lean" rule, why not.

[David Newton]

Not asking why you would want to, but that sounds like a job for shellac, after breaking the glaze of the PU.

[Jim Baker]

Actually I just received some shellac flakes from a place called Wood Essence. I also got hold of some denatured alcohol. So, I'll be trying that on an off cut to see how fresh shellac and the proper thinner perform compared to premixed and shellac mixed with laquer thinner. (that is what is available from Lee Valley here in Canada). Fingers crossed.

[Herb H]

CONTAINS: 65-75% METHANOL (67-56-1)[200-659-6],
20-30% ETHANOL (64-17-5)[200-578-6],
< 10% ISOPROPANOL (67-63-0)[200-661-7],
< 10% METHYL ISOBUTYL KETONE (108-10-1)[203-550-1]


I found it hard to believe, but a Google search on 'denatured alcohol' and MSDS confirmed that a substantial minority of "denatured alcohol" products located in this way contain 50% or more methyl alcohol. Which I think should be criminal misrepresentation. One can, however, consult the MSDS and find a suitable product. There are plenty, apparently, that still list the traditional 90% ethanol (approximately) and lesser amounts of the poison. This may be a trend arising because of the rising price of ethyl alcohol being used as fuel.

Isopropanol doesn't naturally contain water (as one might say of ethanol), but any sold as "rubbing alcohol" will have about 30% water in it, making it useless for many purposes. I can't think why isopropanol would be considered more "toxic" than any product with methanol added to it.