"Noodling"

[Brian Baker]

I've got a questions regarding what I call "noodling", i.e. playing little fills and runs in the background behind the vocalist, usually during the verses.

It seems to me that this is best done sparingly, not every song, and then only during perhaps the last verse (for some variety). Certainly, it must be coordinated with the banjo player, who should switch to "chunking" to make up for the lack of mando chop. I've heard this done as "riffs" in between vocal pauses, or as long lilting melodies in the background during the vocals. It seems to work better on some songs than others.

My question is, should you do this in a "large band" setting? Last night I was in a jam session with a "full" lineup: bass, guitar, b*njo, mando, dobro, and fiddle. While I chopped away, the banjo/dobro/fiddle squad seemed to fill up every bar of music with fills/riffs, so I never found a good time (for over two hours!) to put in some "noodling", since it was already busy-sounding... Also, when my chop dropped out, it was conspicuously absent.

Should this type of backup only be used when fewer instruments are present? Should the banjo guy be sensitive (I realize that's an oxymoron) to the fact that the mando player might want to do some backup other than chopping?

I'd appreciate your thoughts! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Brian

[MANDOLINMYSTER]

Brian,

I know just what you mean. Sometimes just chopp'n gets old, or playing the #expected break. I often look for the chance to do some fills or "silly" little things to put a smile on everyones face. As far as when its appropriate, don't know the true edicate, I just use my own intuition and hope for the best http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[jim simpson]

Brian,
I play in a 4-piece band and the banjo player is excellent at backup. He is very sensitive to when I want to do backup and he actually encourages me to do more. We maintain pretty good eye contact so we complement rather than compete. It works best when you have players who know good dynamics. I feel very fortunate.

[Brian Baker]

Jim:

Yes, you are fortunate!

Actually, the banjo player in my band is actually very sensitive to this also... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Unfortunately, I play bass in that band, so I can't really noodle too much! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Brian

[Jim Garber]

In my early years ofplaying in an old time string band we learned to take turns backing up the vocals. Everyone else backed off or shut upo altogether since the vocals were what mattered. Then the choruses would be dynamically diffferent and the solos would have a still different flavor.

Jim

[mando bandage]

Unfortunately, I play bass in that band, so I can't really noodle too much!

Tell that to Edgar Meyer.

R

[250sc]

jgarber has the right idea. Split it up but remember your job is to compliment the song. Sometimes laying out is the best thing to do.

[AlanN]

All instruments can "chop" or tick the off-beat. In a 4-piece band, the mandolin and banjo should alternate who does what, at appropriate times. A great band to do this is the Lost & Found, when Ronald (banjo) does melodic fill work behind the vocal, Dempsey plays his most excellent rhythm groove. When Dempsey does the fills, Ronald clips the off-beat. Gene Parker was a master at this in a prior L&F incarnation.

[Dennis Schubert]

Another very dynamic trick is to STOP PLAYING for 1/2 a verse and then "re-appear" in the backup.

Besides one-note-noodling, there is tremelo, diamonds (whole notes), call-and-response interaction, moving-voice-within-chords, repeating figures or riffs, plain ol' chopping, muted chopping w/o a defined chord, playing on the beat rather than the back-beat, open-string chords, I-IV and V-I pedal-steel hammer-ons, etc. Can't use every one with every song, but there are lots of crayons in the box.

IMHO, vocal backup is more varied -- and more challenging -- than other aspects of mando within a larger group. My favorite.

[mandopete]

...but there are lots of crayons in the box.
Great suggestions all! I would also agree that "back-up" is quite a challenge and adds a lot to an arrangement. I have found that the best back-up is done sparingly (between vocal phrases) and usually very close to the melody.

[duuuude]

One thing I learned is to remember to treat the vocals as another instrument and don't walk all over 'em with riffs & such but rather compliment the end of lines/verses with short phrases. Just like you wouldn't play over someone else's break, you shouldn't play over top of vocals unless it's been pre-arranged that way. Just my $.02
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[mandology]

If you listen to a lot of Tony Rice's bluegrass stuff ("Plays and Sings Bluegrass" comes particularly to mind here") You'll hear that Sam Bush almost always does fills over the second verse. It seems like a lot of guys do that, so it must be some kind of standard thing for bluegrass mandolin. That's what I often do in jams and stuff, and the people I've jammed with seemed pretty used to it.

[dasspunk]

I was at a jam recently where another mando player noodled completely through every tune. I mean really... his playing was fine but the guy never stopped soloing. Ever! After about 4 tunes with the guy, I had had enough. I joined any circle where he wasn't.

The moral being; be kind to the folks you're picking with and listen.

Now, an approach to the "when to noodle" question that I've found to work well is this... When you're on deck (you're next in line to take a solo), it's your turn to add fill licks. This gives you a bit of a warm up and allows you to set the tone for your solo.

[Ken Sager]

I was at a jam recently where another mando player noodled completely through every tune. I mean really... his playing was fine but the guy never stopped soloing. Ever! After about 4 tunes with the guy, I had had enough. I joined any circle where he wasn't.

The moral being; be kind to the folks you're picking with and listen.

Now, an approach to the "when to noodle" question that I've found to work well is this... When you're on deck (you're next in line to take a solo), it's your turn to add fill licks. This gives you a bit of a warm up and allows you to set the tone for your solo.
Excellent post.

Your second suggestion usually takes a little communication everybody playing, though, but almost always results in nicer lead-in runs into breaks.

Best,
Ken

[Michael H Geimer]

I agree ... great post Dasspunk. (comming up to SF for HSB? )

IMHO ... noodling is a lot like jewlery; too much of it is a sure sign of insecurity.

[mingusb1]

I really like it when the mando player in my band fills and plays a little melodic line along with a verse.

I have even sort of "bounced" a lead vocal of mine off of one of his real tasteful fill parts.

But, hey, anything to help out my lead singing!

Z

[JDARTGOD]

It all depends on YOUR arrangement. It should be worked out which instrument has primary and secondary backup/fill.

Primary being the guy who actually fills melodic lines and secondary being the guy who "chops". Most of the time, instruments will primary backup/fill on the verse before a chorus, followed by their lead break.....then they'll switch to secondary backup (chop). (No hard rules there, just what I hear in the better bluegrass recordings.) Banjos can have a behind the scenes continuing roll that's not too intrusive (if you're lucky).

One of the most important things I find (and listen for) is the fact that the really good bands out there do the majority of their instrumental fill at the ends of phrases in the verses mainly.......never stepping on the vocals at all. (similar to the "snatch and grab" the banjo players do when they have primary backup)[B]

Like in "Banks of the Ohio", it'd go....

"I asked my love"..(little bit of fill)..."to take a walk"....(some more fill)
"Just a walk"...(little bit of fill)..."a little way"....(some more fill)

[Ken Berner]

Hey Jeff, Thanks for that insight. I trust you've been away from Pensacola and missed Ivan. Better to be under the sea, I would suppose!

[JDARTGOD]

Great topic......Kind of along the lines of the unwritten bluegrass jam circle rules. Mostly it boils down to professionalism and courtesy.

Yes and no, Ken......Still on shore duty here in Pensacola, but I did evacuate the family prior to Ivan's arrival. I'm here til May 2005....then back to the wild blue yonder under the waves.

A very tragic scene in this area, but we're alive and safe and the instruments survived, so it can ALWAYS be worse.

[mandroid]

Jams are the conflict probability , by definition, no rehearsals.
The 'in a band' folks have expectations based on their rehearsed material.
I sometimes try harmony in the back double stops and trem, sometimes its acceptable sometimes I get admonished to cut it out'.


'they still haven't found the meds to make me feel like singing' http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[GVD]

Oh so this is really a thread about playing backup huh?

Darn I thought it was about hand fishing. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

GVD

[cutbait2]

JD, by coincendence we had a little BG group on the boomer i was on in the early 70's, banjo, mando, and guitar, I used to practice in the LL MC, between the posiedens. my harmony A fit nicely in a seabag.

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

Glad to hear from some other silent service musicians. Mandolin is a great instrument to take to sea on the boats. I had my A-50 with me during the 60's. Diesel-electric. What an experience!
Re: when to and when not to -- it's clearly a time for best judgement. I grew up with classical music and later was influenced by gamelan as much as early country, so I strongly believe in each instrument being a small part of the whole. If one is in a three, four, or five piece band, it may be necessary to forgo the active style of playing for a more rythymic one. Often I will fill between chorus and verse, and also on a specific verse (perhaps the second or third) depending on the length of song (number of verses, structure, etc.).
Some vocalists can deal with individual instrument voices behind them better than others. Oddly enough, it is in my rock band that I find I must tone down my busyness, although to my ear it is what makes for a different and listenable song. This particular situation definitely due to the varying levels of musical knowledge in the band and the fact that I am a contributor but not the one with the final say in arranging the material.
In a jam of more than 8 - no reason not to pick, as long as one is listening carefully and considers the other personalities - which may have to be assessed quickly on the spot.
Glad this tread came back, as I think about this subject (as do many, probably) #from time to time. As I get more accomplished on mandolin, I am more and more comfortable with the fact that less is more. A moment here and there, as well as some very differing solos over the period of an evening, speak volumes. I think the 'noodler" may be doing their best to add and play what they can on their journey to becoming a more experienced player. But it usually exposes one's bag of tricks rather quickly.

rasa